Cold Laser Treatment: Anyone ever try it?

Amapola · 25th October 2005, 10:56 PM

Here's a link, in case you have never heard of it: Cold Laser FAQ

I have a dear friend who falls for every scam that comes down the pipeline. She is trying this treatment on a HORSE. I can't even imagine how much it is costing her. I'd love to be able to provide her with some hard evidence that this is not going to work and is a waste of money, but I see the FDA has approved this treatment for carpal tunnel.

Has anyone ever tried it? Did it work? And I am wondering why on earth the FDA would approve it....... the premise does not sound like it would work. Light penetrating several inches into the body?? I'd sure like to learn more about it!

Flange Desire · 25th October 2005, 11:57 PM

No, never used it. But one might consider -

Why would shining some light on some tissue be theraputic?

What theraputic mechanism (other than the calmative warming provided by IR radiation) would be activated/produced by this light?

Sure, some skin cells and some corneal cells may respond to photons in some very specific ways, but what is expected of cells residing at deeper levels in the tissue?
Would they be expected to be receptive to photons?

Regardless of whether if actually does penetrate 2 inches as advertised.
Regardless of whether it is focused in a laser or not.
Regardless of whether it is hi or lo powered, coloured or not, etc, etc.

Rolfe · 26th October 2005, 02:49 AM

The language is less overtly quacky than many quack sites, but it sounds highly suspicious to me. For what it's worth, I never heard of anything like this within normal veterinary medicine.

Reminds me of a thread from some time ago where Steve Grenard argued that since phototherapy is an accepted form of treatment for neonatal hyperbilirubinaemia and seasonal affective disorder, then a site promoting LED lights with amazing therapeutic claims must be on the level.

Rolfe.

Darat · 26th October 2005, 05:14 AM

FDA site:

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/consumer/laserfacts.html

Quote:

...snip...

BIOSTIMULATION LASERS

Biostimulation lasers, also called low level laser therapy (LLLT), cold lasers, soft lasers, or laser acupuncture devices, were cleared for marketing by FDA through the Premarket Notification/510(k) process as adjunctive devices for the temporary relief of pain. These clearances were based on the presentation of clinical data to support such claims. FDA will consider similar applications for these and other claims with the decision to require clinical data being made on an individual basis, taking into consideration both the device and the claim. Please note that FDA law and regulations contain provisions that permit limited distribution of unapproved devices for use in clinical investigations. There are numerous clinical investigations being conducted in this and other countries to determine safety and efficacy with these devices for the intended uses that are proposed.

Certain unapproved, nonsignificant risk Class III medical devices, including biostimulation lasers, may only be distributed in the U.S. to individual practitioners who have approval from an Institutional Review Board (IRB) for the investigational clinical use of the device, or to investigators participating in a study under an Investigational Device Exemption (IDE) approved by the Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH), as specified in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), 21 CFR 812. Even with IRB approval, a sponsor must comply with IDE requirements such as monitoring investigations, maintaining records, making reports, and complying with prohibitions on promotion and commercialization of investigational devices. The investigators would have similar responsibilities, also covered in 21 CFR 812.
...snip...

A Chirppratic view on the use: http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/12/21/17.html

Quote:

...snip...

The initial studies utilizing LLLT on nerve tissue produced mixed results regarding nerve conduction velocity and distal latency. These earlier studies utilized low powered HeNe lasers (<=1mW) and resultant low energy densities (<=.012 J/cm2).1 More recent studies utilizing higher energy densities and deeper penetrating lasers have found alterations in distal nerve latency and conduction velocity by a few to many percent, and which can last for periods of 30 minutes or greater.1,9-11 It appears that nerve tissue has a photosensitive component, which results in a biostimulation blockade response following laser exposure.12 It is felt that LLLT reduces the excitability of the nerve cells by an interruption of the fast pain fibers with a resultant reduction in pain.12-15 LLLT has also been shown to accelerate the repair process of crush damaged nerves and improve function in both the CNS and peripheral nerves after injury.1,16-18

...snip...

Clinical Studies

A number of papers have shown a reduction of pain with laser treatments directed over acupuncture points.21-24 Altered skin resistance with a reduction of pain were also noted in subjects who receive LLLT over muscular trigger points.25-26

A group of subjects with chronic tendinopathies, that had been previously treated unsuccessfully with physical therapy, NSAIDS, local injections, and or surgery, had an 87 percent success rate in pain reduction following the application of LLLT.27

I didn't see an actual reference to the clinical studies. There is a book about it: http://www.laser.nu/lllt/flash.htm .

Flange Desire · 27th October 2005, 10:07 PM

Thanks for the details.

I wonder (out loud) how and why deep tissues (in this case nerve cells) would respond to photo-stimulation, when they don't normally even see the light of day.

Perhaps the photo-responce is a holdover from the ancestral nerve cells function.
As author Pickering has expoused - Many body parts have evolved via re-use and re-engineering of ancestral body parts in new novel applications.
It is probable that all nerve cell functions have evolved from primative ancestral nerve cell function - probably a simple photo-receptor, or possibly even a simple heat-receptor.

At least that is what I understood from Pickering.

judylee · 1st November 2005, 04:39 PM

11.01.05
In a bad fall I tore the miniscus (sp?) in my right knee. I was taking pain meds and had tried many different kinds of tradition allopathic medical treatments and also had seen 5 different DCs t no avail. I was in and out of a wheelchair and when "doing good" was walking with a cane. I finally couldn't take the pain any more. An orthopedic surgeon did all the tests and recommended surgery (no surprise, heh?). It was scheduled for the end of January 2005. In mid-January I took another fall and a doctor in Las Vegas, NV, where I was visiting, used a cold laser on the knee.

The response was immediate. After a 30 minute treatment I was able to DANCE out to my car. I threw the cane in the back seat. I have not used a cane since then (nor had need of a wheelchair). I cancelled the surgery but was very concerned about "when will the pain come back"? I had my doctor at home prescribe a cold laser for use at home (and on the road since I travel extensively with my job.) While cold lasers typically cost anywhere from $5,000 to $15,000 I was able to find one for about 1/4 of the cost.

Amazingly, the pain did not even come back for 5 weeks, and it was very mild. I now use the cold laser on the knee about once a month for 10 minutes. I also use it for many other aches and pains, including when I pulled an Achillis tendon. I used it for 3 minutes and the pain was GONE. In the past, when I have pulled a tendon, it took about 2-3 weeks to heal.

Don't pooh-pooh the healing effects. The FDA has approved them for a wide variety of uses. Athletic trainers would not be without their handheld units at practices and games. Vets all over the country are using the vet-approved lasers on themselves and their families with great results. So this horse is probably VERY happy to have such a considerate owner!

judylee

Ducky · 1st November 2005, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by judylee

11.01.05
In a bad fall I tore the miniscus (sp?) in my right knee. I was taking pain meds and had tried many different kinds of tradition allopathic medical treatments and also had seen 5 different DCs t no avail. I was in and out of a wheelchair and when "doing good" was walking with a cane. I finally couldn't take the pain any more. An orthopedic surgeon did all the tests and recommended surgery (no surprise, heh?). It was scheduled for the end of January 2005. In mid-January I took another fall and a doctor in Las Vegas, NV, where I was visiting, used a cold laser on the knee.

The response was immediate. After a 30 minute treatment I was able to DANCE out to my car. I threw the cane in the back seat. I have not used a cane since then (nor had need of a wheelchair). I cancelled the surgery but was very concerned about "when will the pain come back"? I had my doctor at home prescribe a cold laser for use at home (and on the road since I travel extensively with my job.) While cold lasers typically cost anywhere from $5,000 to $15,000 I was able to find one for about 1/4 of the cost.

Amazingly, the pain did not even come back for 5 weeks, and it was very mild. I now use the cold laser on the knee about once a month for 10 minutes. I also use it for many other aches and pains, including when I pulled an Achillis tendon. I used it for 3 minutes and the pain was GONE. In the past, when I have pulled a tendon, it took about 2-3 weeks to heal.

Don't pooh-pooh the healing effects. The FDA has approved them for a wide variety of uses. Athletic trainers would not be without their handheld units at practices and games. Vets all over the country are using the vet-approved lasers on themselves and their families with great results. So this horse is probably VERY happy to have such a considerate owner!

judylee

I'm glad your pain has subsided.

Have you considered that possibly as you healed your pain lessened on it's own?

Have you considered that you could have been experiencing placebo effect?

Do you have any links to double blinded studies showing a better than placebo effectiveness of this product?

ETA: Can you provide links to substantiate your claims that this is widely used by athletic trainers and vets? Also, we have had one vet directly state they this is not standard or accepted practice. How do you respond to that?

geni · 1st November 2005, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by judylee

11.01.05
In a bad fall I tore the miniscus (sp?) in my right knee. I was taking pain meds and had tried many different kinds of tradition allopathic medical treatments and also had seen 5 different DCs t no avail. I was in and out of a wheelchair and when "doing good" was walking with a cane. I finally couldn't take the pain any more. An orthopedic surgeon did all the tests and recommended surgery (no surprise, heh?). It was scheduled for the end of January 2005. In mid-January I took another fall and a doctor in Las Vegas, NV, where I was visiting, used a cold laser on the knee.

The response was immediate. After a 30 minute treatment I was able to DANCE out to my car. I threw the cane in the back seat. I have not used a cane since then (nor had need of a wheelchair). I cancelled the surgery but was very concerned about "when will the pain come back"? I had my doctor at home prescribe a cold laser for use at home (and on the road since I travel extensively with my job.) While cold lasers typically cost anywhere from $5,000 to $15,000 I was able to find one for about 1/4 of the cost.

Amazingly, the pain did not even come back for 5 weeks, and it was very mild. I now use the cold laser on the knee about once a month for 10 minutes. I also use it for many other aches and pains, including when I pulled an Achillis tendon. I used it for 3 minutes and the pain was GONE. In the past, when I have pulled a tendon, it took about 2-3 weeks to heal.

Don't pooh-pooh the healing effects. The FDA has approved them for a wide variety of uses. Athletic trainers would not be without their handheld units at practices and games. Vets all over the country are using the vet-approved lasers on themselves and their families with great results. So this horse is probably VERY happy to have such a considerate owner!

judylee

Hmm traceing hits back to forums then dumping testomonials. That suggests a problem. However since alexa has never even heard of them and google doesn't bring up anything other than link directories I supose it is understable.

Amapola · 1st November 2005, 10:47 PM

Good call, Geni.

I remain unconvinced about this laser treatment. Perhpas my friend still has it and I can try it out myself..... But I would still want to see some studies done. Proper, double-blinded studies.

The horse did not get "better", BTW. The owner never does either, despite getting Rolfed and Punctured to beat the band. I will have to see if she has used the cold laser on herself.......

Soapy Sam · 4th November 2005, 12:10 PM

Amapola- I suggest you warn your friend that lasers emit electromagnetic radiation.
That should put her off.

Amapola · 4th November 2005, 12:51 PM

Thanks, Soapy Sam - I will. Should see her this weekend.

Pyrts · 4th November 2005, 10:20 PM

In several studies, the placebo was found to be more effective:
http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q...Myofascial.pdf

25th October 2005, 10:56 PM	#1
Amapola Tengo Llamas Peligrosos Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Mora, New Mexico Posts: 6,247	Cold Laser Treatment: Anyone ever try it? Here's a link, in case you have never heard of it: Cold Laser FAQ I have a dear friend who falls for every scam that comes down the pipeline. She is trying this treatment on a HORSE. I can't even imagine how much it is costing her. I'd love to be able to provide her with some hard evidence that this is not going to work and is a waste of money, but I see the FDA has approved this treatment for carpal tunnel. Has anyone ever tried it? Did it work? And I am wondering why on earth the FDA would approve it....... the premise does not sound like it would work. Light penetrating several inches into the body?? I'd sure like to learn more about it!

26th October 2005, 02:49 AM	#3
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 18,441	The language is less overtly quacky than many quack sites, but it sounds highly suspicious to me. For what it's worth, I never heard of anything like this within normal veterinary medicine. Reminds me of a thread from some time ago where Steve Grenard argued that since phototherapy is an accepted form of treatment for neonatal hyperbilirubinaemia and seasonal affective disorder, then a site promoting LED lights with amazing therapeutic claims must be on the level. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The thing about medicine is, that it all comes down to the numbers." - Dr. Stephen Franklin, Interludes and Examinations. "To give Rolfe his due, I think this is a good example to everyone of what can happen if we fail to get a proper diagnosis and begin treating on symptoms alone--a big mistake, as shown here." - "Snoopy" on H'pathy Forums, apparently abjuring the very fundamentals of homoeopathy after she'd just allowed a young mother with Addison's disease to die.

26th October 2005, 05:14 AM	#4
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,877	FDA site: http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/consumer/laserfacts.html Quote: ...snip... BIOSTIMULATION LASERS Biostimulation lasers, also called low level laser therapy (LLLT), cold lasers, soft lasers, or laser acupuncture devices, were cleared for marketing by FDA through the Premarket Notification/510(k) process as adjunctive devices for the temporary relief of pain. These clearances were based on the presentation of clinical data to support such claims. FDA will consider similar applications for these and other claims with the decision to require clinical data being made on an individual basis, taking into consideration both the device and the claim. Please note that FDA law and regulations contain provisions that permit limited distribution of unapproved devices for use in clinical investigations. There are numerous clinical investigations being conducted in this and other countries to determine safety and efficacy with these devices for the intended uses that are proposed. Certain unapproved, nonsignificant risk Class III medical devices, including biostimulation lasers, may only be distributed in the U.S. to individual practitioners who have approval from an Institutional Review Board (IRB) for the investigational clinical use of the device, or to investigators participating in a study under an Investigational Device Exemption (IDE) approved by the Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH), as specified in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), 21 CFR 812. Even with IRB approval, a sponsor must comply with IDE requirements such as monitoring investigations, maintaining records, making reports, and complying with prohibitions on promotion and commercialization of investigational devices. The investigators would have similar responsibilities, also covered in 21 CFR 812. ...snip... A Chirppratic view on the use: http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/12/21/17.html Quote: ...snip... The initial studies utilizing LLLT on nerve tissue produced mixed results regarding nerve conduction velocity and distal latency. These earlier studies utilized low powered HeNe lasers (<=1mW) and resultant low energy densities (<=.012 J/cm2).1 More recent studies utilizing higher energy densities and deeper penetrating lasers have found alterations in distal nerve latency and conduction velocity by a few to many percent, and which can last for periods of 30 minutes or greater.1,9-11 It appears that nerve tissue has a photosensitive component, which results in a biostimulation blockade response following laser exposure.12 It is felt that LLLT reduces the excitability of the nerve cells by an interruption of the fast pain fibers with a resultant reduction in pain.12-15 LLLT has also been shown to accelerate the repair process of crush damaged nerves and improve function in both the CNS and peripheral nerves after injury.1,16-18 ...snip... Clinical Studies A number of papers have shown a reduction of pain with laser treatments directed over acupuncture points.21-24 Altered skin resistance with a reduction of pain were also noted in subjects who receive LLLT over muscular trigger points.25-26 A group of subjects with chronic tendinopathies, that had been previously treated unsuccessfully with physical therapy, NSAIDS, local injections, and or surgery, had an 87 percent success rate in pain reduction following the application of LLLT.27 I didn't see an actual reference to the clinical studies. There is a book about it: http://www.laser.nu/lllt/flash.htm .
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

1st November 2005, 04:39 PM	#6
judylee New Blood Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southern New Mexico, USA Posts: 1	Cold Laser Success Story 11.01.05 In a bad fall I tore the miniscus (sp?) in my right knee. I was taking pain meds and had tried many different kinds of tradition allopathic medical treatments and also had seen 5 different DCs t no avail. I was in and out of a wheelchair and when "doing good" was walking with a cane. I finally couldn't take the pain any more. An orthopedic surgeon did all the tests and recommended surgery (no surprise, heh?). It was scheduled for the end of January 2005. In mid-January I took another fall and a doctor in Las Vegas, NV, where I was visiting, used a cold laser on the knee. The response was immediate. After a 30 minute treatment I was able to DANCE out to my car. I threw the cane in the back seat. I have not used a cane since then (nor had need of a wheelchair). I cancelled the surgery but was very concerned about "when will the pain come back"? I had my doctor at home prescribe a cold laser for use at home (and on the road since I travel extensively with my job.) While cold lasers typically cost anywhere from $5,000 to $15,000 I was able to find one for about 1/4 of the cost. Amazingly, the pain did not even come back for 5 weeks, and it was very mild. I now use the cold laser on the knee about once a month for 10 minutes. I also use it for many other aches and pains, including when I pulled an Achillis tendon. I used it for 3 minutes and the pain was GONE. In the past, when I have pulled a tendon, it took about 2-3 weeks to heal. Don't pooh-pooh the healing effects. The FDA has approved them for a wide variety of uses. Athletic trainers would not be without their handheld units at practices and games. Vets all over the country are using the vet-approved lasers on themselves and their families with great results. So this horse is probably VERY happy to have such a considerate owner! judylee

1st November 2005, 05:00 PM	#7
Ducky Titanium Superhero Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota Posts: 10,336	Originally Posted by judylee 11.01.05 In a bad fall I tore the miniscus (sp?) in my right knee. I was taking pain meds and had tried many different kinds of tradition allopathic medical treatments and also had seen 5 different DCs t no avail. I was in and out of a wheelchair and when "doing good" was walking with a cane. I finally couldn't take the pain any more. An orthopedic surgeon did all the tests and recommended surgery (no surprise, heh?). It was scheduled for the end of January 2005. In mid-January I took another fall and a doctor in Las Vegas, NV, where I was visiting, used a cold laser on the knee. The response was immediate. After a 30 minute treatment I was able to DANCE out to my car. I threw the cane in the back seat. I have not used a cane since then (nor had need of a wheelchair). I cancelled the surgery but was very concerned about "when will the pain come back"? I had my doctor at home prescribe a cold laser for use at home (and on the road since I travel extensively with my job.) While cold lasers typically cost anywhere from $5,000 to $15,000 I was able to find one for about 1/4 of the cost. Amazingly, the pain did not even come back for 5 weeks, and it was very mild. I now use the cold laser on the knee about once a month for 10 minutes. I also use it for many other aches and pains, including when I pulled an Achillis tendon. I used it for 3 minutes and the pain was GONE. In the past, when I have pulled a tendon, it took about 2-3 weeks to heal. Don't pooh-pooh the healing effects. The FDA has approved them for a wide variety of uses. Athletic trainers would not be without their handheld units at practices and games. Vets all over the country are using the vet-approved lasers on themselves and their families with great results. So this horse is probably VERY happy to have such a considerate owner! judylee I'm glad your pain has subsided. Have you considered that possibly as you healed your pain lessened on it's own? Have you considered that you could have been experiencing placebo effect? Do you have any links to double blinded studies showing a better than placebo effectiveness of this product? ETA: Can you provide links to substantiate your claims that this is widely used by athletic trainers and vets? Also, we have had one vet directly state they this is not standard or accepted practice. How do you respond to that?
	Last edited by Ducky; 1st November 2005 at 05:13 PM.

25th October 2005, 11:57 PM	#2
Flange Desire Muse Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 572	No, never used it. But one might consider - Why would shining some light on some tissue be theraputic? What theraputic mechanism (other than the calmative warming provided by IR radiation) would be activated/produced by this light? Sure, some skin cells and some corneal cells may respond to photons in some very specific ways, but what is expected of cells residing at deeper levels in the tissue? Would they be expected to be receptive to photons? Regardless of whether if actually does penetrate 2 inches as advertised. Regardless of whether it is focused in a laser or not. Regardless of whether it is hi or lo powered, coloured or not, etc, etc.

27th October 2005, 10:07 PM	#5
Flange Desire Muse Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 572	Thanks for the details. I wonder (out loud) how and why deep tissues (in this case nerve cells) would respond to photo-stimulation, when they don't normally even see the light of day. Perhaps the photo-responce is a holdover from the ancestral nerve cells function. As author Pickering has expoused - Many body parts have evolved via re-use and re-engineering of ancestral body parts in new novel applications. It is probable that all nerve cell functions have evolved from primative ancestral nerve cell function - probably a simple photo-receptor, or possibly even a simple heat-receptor. At least that is what I understood from Pickering.

1st November 2005, 05:05 PM	#8
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 19,856	Originally Posted by judylee 11.01.05 In a bad fall I tore the miniscus (sp?) in my right knee. I was taking pain meds and had tried many different kinds of tradition allopathic medical treatments and also had seen 5 different DCs t no avail. I was in and out of a wheelchair and when "doing good" was walking with a cane. I finally couldn't take the pain any more. An orthopedic surgeon did all the tests and recommended surgery (no surprise, heh?). It was scheduled for the end of January 2005. In mid-January I took another fall and a doctor in Las Vegas, NV, where I was visiting, used a cold laser on the knee. The response was immediate. After a 30 minute treatment I was able to DANCE out to my car. I threw the cane in the back seat. I have not used a cane since then (nor had need of a wheelchair). I cancelled the surgery but was very concerned about "when will the pain come back"? I had my doctor at home prescribe a cold laser for use at home (and on the road since I travel extensively with my job.) While cold lasers typically cost anywhere from $5,000 to $15,000 I was able to find one for about 1/4 of the cost. Amazingly, the pain did not even come back for 5 weeks, and it was very mild. I now use the cold laser on the knee about once a month for 10 minutes. I also use it for many other aches and pains, including when I pulled an Achillis tendon. I used it for 3 minutes and the pain was GONE. In the past, when I have pulled a tendon, it took about 2-3 weeks to heal. Don't pooh-pooh the healing effects. The FDA has approved them for a wide variety of uses. Athletic trainers would not be without their handheld units at practices and games. Vets all over the country are using the vet-approved lasers on themselves and their families with great results. So this horse is probably VERY happy to have such a considerate owner! judylee Hmm traceing hits back to forums then dumping testomonials. That suggests a problem. However since alexa has never even heard of them and google doesn't bring up anything other than link directories I supose it is understable.

1st November 2005, 10:47 PM	#9
Amapola Tengo Llamas Peligrosos Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Mora, New Mexico Posts: 6,247	Good call, Geni. I remain unconvinced about this laser treatment. Perhpas my friend still has it and I can try it out myself..... But I would still want to see some studies done. Proper, double-blinded studies. The horse did not get "better", BTW. The owner never does either, despite getting Rolfed and Punctured to beat the band. I will have to see if she has used the cold laser on herself.......

4th November 2005, 12:10 PM	#10
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 17,387	Amapola- I suggest you warn your friend that lasers emit electromagnetic radiation. That should put her off.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 17,387

4th November 2005, 12:51 PM	#11
Amapola Tengo Llamas Peligrosos Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Mora, New Mexico Posts: 6,247	Thanks, Soapy Sam - I will. Should see her this weekend.

4th November 2005, 10:20 PM	#12
Pyrts Thinker Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 181	In several studies, the placebo was found to be more effective: http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q...Myofascial.pdf
Pyrts Thinker Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 181