Christians at work

Ryokan · 2nd November 2005, 09:27 AM

Since I'm from a different country than most of you, I'll have to paint you a background before I start my story.

First off, I've been unemployed for a very long time now, and on wellfare. Wellfare is pretty good in Norway, but very hard to live on for extended periods. Just having enough money for rent and food gets very very tiresome when that's all you have for several years.

There's a government program for those who have been uneployed, however, where you work for free somewhere, and get a bit extra money in wellfare. The theory behind this is that the people can 'try you out' for free, then maybe hire you. And if they don't hire you, at least you get more work experience, which might make you more unemployable for others. In practice, there's a LOT of people out there looking to take advantage of some free labor.

I got into this program around 7 months ago. The first 6 months I worked the nightshift at a hotel as a receptionist. This was a pretty okay job, if you disregard the fact that I didn't get paid, and that those I worked with got more per hour than I got per day, and that they had no intention whatsoever of hiring me.

Then, a month ago, I got transfered to a new job, since I didn't get hired at the hotel. This time to a kindergarten (The Norwegian word for it is 'barnehage', which translates into German as 'kindergarten'. However, I think Americans know it as a daycare center, and is for kids too young to go to school. In my particular case, it's for children aged 0 to 3 years old.).

In Norway we have no seperation of church and state. Along with a state church, we also have a clause in our school laws called the 'Christian Values Clause', that states that all schools and kindergartens must teach Christian values.

Of course, Norway has become more and more secular and multicultural the last decades, and in schools you wouldn't even notice this law.

Not so in kindergartens. Most of them are run by Christian organizations, and I was glad when I found out that the kindergarten I was going to work with was not run by one of them.

I've now been working there for a month, and even if it's not run by a Christian organization, all of my co-workers are Christians. Before we eat, the kids are required to say grace. 0- to 3-year-old kids! And once a day, we play gospel music which the kids dance to, especially a popular Norwegian gospel song called 'Jesus loves all the children'. 0- to 3-year-olds!

Mid-day, most of the kids have eaten and are taking a nap, so we grown-ups eat a little, drink coffee and read the papers. So today, there was an article in the papers about how, after the election a short while back, there's now a majority in parliament for removing the 'Christian Values Clause'. So, without thinking, I said out aloud, 'Wow, there's majority in parliament for blablabla...'

And all hell broke loose! You should've seen their faces! Of course we must teach Christian values to kids, how else can they learn to be moral human beings? It's important for people of other religions to be taught how to behave in Norwegian society! If we keep secularizing Norway, we'll lose all our holidays! Besides, Norway is a Christian nation by definition, and if people can't handle that then no-one is forcing them to stay!

I tried arguing with them, but they became quite agitated and angry, so after a while I just shut up and read the papers. But I did make my position clear ('What if it was a 'Muslim Values Clause'? How would you have felt then...?' - 'But it's not! It's a Christian clause! This is a Christian nation, and not a Muslim one! Besides, Christian values are superior, Islam says killing is okay, Christianity says killing is a sin!' - 'Yes, the commandments say you shall not kill, but just a few pages later it says that you can stone homosexuals to death.' - 'That doesn't apply anymore, since Jesus died for our sins!' - Blablabla....)

It was quite apparant that they did NOT like having a person who wants a secular country working with them (You bet your ass I didn't dare tell them I'm a Buddhist! That's none of their business anyway, I don't go around flaunting my religion like some people do). The rest of the day none of them talked to me, except saying goodye when I left.

Believe me, I've had a pretty crappy day. Not really loking forward to keep working there, but if I quit, I'm losing out on money I've learned to appreciate. It's nice to be able to pay bills in addition to just rent and food.

Sigh.

Ryokan · 2nd November 2005, 09:35 AM

Sorry, posted in wrong subforum. Was supposed to be posted in the Religion and Philosophy subforum.

merphie · 2nd November 2005, 11:58 AM

I don't know I think this could apply to politics especially in the US.

Although we have a clause to seperate church and state it isn't followed in my opinion. Probably because we are a "Christian Nation".

I feel for you being unemployed. I've work steady and still barely pay the bills and food. Especially since gas has gone up so much.

Chaos · 2nd November 2005, 12:49 PM

On a separate angle, here in Germany we have something similar to what you are doing. They´re called "1-Euro-Job", because unemployed receive a minimal salary (actually about 1.25 to 1.5 Euro per hour) that they can keep in addition to their welfare payments.

So far the program hasn´t done much to re-integrate unemployed into the workforce. It has, however, succeeded admirably in replacing regular jobs with 1-Euro-Jobs.

username · 2nd November 2005, 12:54 PM

I can feel for you with the unemployment as well as the resistance to the seperation of church and state you are encountering.

My only advice is to keep your church-state beliefs quiet while seeking good employment. You don't have to change what you believe, but getting a desired job is all about fitting in with whatever the employer thinks they want.

Nyarlathotep · 2nd November 2005, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Chaos

On a separate angle, here in Germany we have something similar to what you are doing. They´re called "1-Euro-Job", because unemployed receive a minimal salary (actually about 1.25 to 1.5 Euro per hour) that they can keep in addition to their welfare payments.

So far the program hasn´t done much to re-integrate unemployed into the workforce. It has, however, succeeded admirably in replacing regular jobs with 1-Euro-Jobs.

It varies from state to state in the US but in Nevada they don't have a program like that.They DO however, make actively looking for employment (provided you are physically capable of working) a condition for continuing to receive welfare. Yeah its hard to find a job sometimes, but you can stay on welfare as long as youa re making a 'good faith' effort to find a job. I think it has worked pretty well. It's only anecdotal, to be sure, but I had a sister who was on welfare and as a result of the requirement, got a waitressing job, she has been steadily employed and has not gone back on welfare ever since. I know quite a few other personal stories of others, likewise. I think that's a much better solution than the '1-euro job'.

CBL4 · 2nd November 2005, 03:55 PM

Ryokan,

Many small companies have a religious culture. I have been told that the company I work for used to give people time during the day to go to a nearby chapel.

The most common complaint I hear about these days is so-called "Mormon companies." I am not sure if this is anti-Mormon bias by the complainants or whether there is a pro-Mormon bias within the company. I would bet it is a combination. Also for Mormons, their extensive social network could replace the golf course or fraternal organization for secondary business networking.

CBL

merphie · 2nd November 2005, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by CBL4

Ryokan,

Many small companies have a religious culture. I have been told that the company I work for used to give people time during the day to go to a nearby chapel.

The most common complaint I hear about these days is so-called "Mormon companies." I am not sure if this is anti-Mormon bias by the complainants or whether there is a pro-Mormon bias within the company. I would bet it is a combination. Also for Mormons, their extensive social network could replace the golf course or fraternal organization for secondary business networking.

CBL

I was offered a job at some place once that had many religious activites. They had weekly religious meetings at the office. I refused the job because it conflicted with my personal views.

God · 2nd November 2005, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

And all hell broke loose! You should've seen their faces! Of course we must teach Christian values to kids, how else can they learn to be moral human beings? I tried arguing with them, but they became quite agitated and angry,

Yea...with christianity, your expected to go with the program, and be conditioned as they have been for many years. Throughout history and up until recently you would get the death penalty for teaching or practicing anything outside of christianity. Burned alive even. (as moral as christians are)?

Elind · 2nd November 2005, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Since I'm from a different country than most of you, I'll have to paint you a background before I start my story.

Sigh.

Don't feel alone. Sounds like Norway is only a generation or so behind the US on the god aspect, and here there are lots of similar "job" opportunities. They are called working for commission (and pay your own expenses to promote someone else's business). Same difference. It's called "burn and churn".

Chaos · 3rd November 2005, 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by Nyarlathotep

It varies from state to state in the US but in Nevada they don't have a program like that.They DO however, make actively looking for employment (provided you are physically capable of working) a condition for continuing to receive welfare. Yeah its hard to find a job sometimes, but you can stay on welfare as long as youa re making a 'good faith' effort to find a job. I think it has worked pretty well. It's only anecdotal, to be sure, but I had a sister who was on welfare and as a result of the requirement, got a waitressing job, she has been steadily employed and has not gone back on welfare ever since. I know quite a few other personal stories of others, likewise. I think that's a much better solution than the '1-euro job'.

So do I... and continously looking for work is a requirement for receiving welfare, too. But that would require work to be there for people to take. As it stands, we have 4.5 to 5 million unemployed and an estimated 400,000 job vacancies. Do the math yourself...

Luke T. · 3rd November 2005, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by merphie

I was offered a job at some place once that had many religious activites. They had weekly religious meetings at the office. I refused the job because it conflicted with my personal views.

The company I work at has the little fish symbol on some of its business stationary and its web site. There are regular prayer meetings early in the morning in the conference room. Most everybody here is a regular church goer and Creationist.

And you know what? It doesn't bother me one bit. I have found these people to be the nicest, most generous, kindest, warm-hearted people I have ever met. I could go on at very great length of the wonderful things they have done just this year alone for people less fortunate than them that would probably shame every last person here.

I love these people. I really, really do. This is the best place I have ever worked.

merphie · 3rd November 2005, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Luke T.

The company I work at has the little fish symbol on some of its business stationary and its web site. There are regular prayer meetings early in the morning in the conference room. Most everybody here is a regular church goer and Creationist.

And you know what? It doesn't bother me one bit. I have found these people to be the nicest, most generous, kindest, warm-hearted people I have ever met. I could go on at very great length of the wonderful things they have done just this year alone for people less fortunate than them that would probably shame every last person here.

I love these people. I really, really do. This is the best place I have ever worked.

I have no doubt they were good people. I tend to believe most people are good. However, I refused the job on principle.

Elind · 5th November 2005, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by Luke T.

The company I work at has the little fish symbol on some of its business stationary and its web site. There are regular prayer meetings early in the morning in the conference room. Most everybody here is a regular church goer and Creationist.

And you know what? It doesn't bother me one bit. I have found these people to be the nicest, most generous, kindest, warm-hearted people I have ever met. I could go on at very great length of the wonderful things they have done just this year alone for people less fortunate than them that would probably shame every last person here.

I love these people. I really, really do. This is the best place I have ever worked.

No doubt they are nice people. No one here is saying creationists can't be nice, just that they are ignorant.

But what you don't describe is how they react to your views (presumably evolutionist?), nor whether you ever try to sincerely explain them those views, which inevitably means arguing that their core beliefs are based on ignorance of science.

Have you come out of the closet yet?

2nd November 2005, 09:27 AM	#1
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,192	Christians at work Since I'm from a different country than most of you, I'll have to paint you a background before I start my story. First off, I've been unemployed for a very long time now, and on wellfare. Wellfare is pretty good in Norway, but very hard to live on for extended periods. Just having enough money for rent and food gets very very tiresome when that's all you have for several years. There's a government program for those who have been uneployed, however, where you work for free somewhere, and get a bit extra money in wellfare. The theory behind this is that the people can 'try you out' for free, then maybe hire you. And if they don't hire you, at least you get more work experience, which might make you more unemployable for others. In practice, there's a LOT of people out there looking to take advantage of some free labor. I got into this program around 7 months ago. The first 6 months I worked the nightshift at a hotel as a receptionist. This was a pretty okay job, if you disregard the fact that I didn't get paid, and that those I worked with got more per hour than I got per day, and that they had no intention whatsoever of hiring me. Then, a month ago, I got transfered to a new job, since I didn't get hired at the hotel. This time to a kindergarten (The Norwegian word for it is 'barnehage', which translates into German as 'kindergarten'. However, I think Americans know it as a daycare center, and is for kids too young to go to school. In my particular case, it's for children aged 0 to 3 years old.). In Norway we have no seperation of church and state. Along with a state church, we also have a clause in our school laws called the 'Christian Values Clause', that states that all schools and kindergartens must teach Christian values. Of course, Norway has become more and more secular and multicultural the last decades, and in schools you wouldn't even notice this law. Not so in kindergartens. Most of them are run by Christian organizations, and I was glad when I found out that the kindergarten I was going to work with was not run by one of them. I've now been working there for a month, and even if it's not run by a Christian organization, all of my co-workers are Christians. Before we eat, the kids are required to say grace. 0- to 3-year-old kids! And once a day, we play gospel music which the kids dance to, especially a popular Norwegian gospel song called 'Jesus loves all the children'. 0- to 3-year-olds! Mid-day, most of the kids have eaten and are taking a nap, so we grown-ups eat a little, drink coffee and read the papers. So today, there was an article in the papers about how, after the election a short while back, there's now a majority in parliament for removing the 'Christian Values Clause'. So, without thinking, I said out aloud, 'Wow, there's majority in parliament for blablabla...' And all hell broke loose! You should've seen their faces! Of course we must teach Christian values to kids, how else can they learn to be moral human beings? It's important for people of other religions to be taught how to behave in Norwegian society! If we keep secularizing Norway, we'll lose all our holidays! Besides, Norway is a Christian nation by definition, and if people can't handle that then no-one is forcing them to stay! I tried arguing with them, but they became quite agitated and angry, so after a while I just shut up and read the papers. But I did make my position clear ('What if it was a 'Muslim Values Clause'? How would you have felt then...?' - 'But it's not! It's a Christian clause! This is a Christian nation, and not a Muslim one! Besides, Christian values are superior, Islam says killing is okay, Christianity says killing is a sin!' - 'Yes, the commandments say you shall not kill, but just a few pages later it says that you can stone homosexuals to death.' - 'That doesn't apply anymore, since Jesus died for our sins!' - Blablabla....) It was quite apparant that they did NOT like having a person who wants a secular country working with them (You bet your ass I didn't dare tell them I'm a Buddhist! That's none of their business anyway, I don't go around flaunting my religion like some people do). The rest of the day none of them talked to me, except saying goodye when I left. Believe me, I've had a pretty crappy day. Not really loking forward to keep working there, but if I quit, I'm losing out on money I've learned to appreciate. It's nice to be able to pay bills in addition to just rent and food. Sigh.

2nd November 2005, 11:58 AM	#3
merphie Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,890	I don't know I think this could apply to politics especially in the US. Although we have a clause to seperate church and state it isn't followed in my opinion. Probably because we are a "Christian Nation". I feel for you being unemployed. I've work steady and still barely pay the bills and food. Especially since gas has gone up so much.
	__________________ "They that can give up Essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

2nd November 2005, 12:49 PM	#4
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,780	On a separate angle, here in Germany we have something similar to what you are doing. They´re called "1-Euro-Job", because unemployed receive a minimal salary (actually about 1.25 to 1.5 Euro per hour) that they can keep in addition to their welfare payments. So far the program hasn´t done much to re-integrate unemployed into the workforce. It has, however, succeeded admirably in replacing regular jobs with 1-Euro-Jobs.
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous

2nd November 2005, 12:54 PM	#5
username Muse Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 837	I can feel for you with the unemployment as well as the resistance to the seperation of church and state you are encountering. My only advice is to keep your church-state beliefs quiet while seeking good employment. You don't have to change what you believe, but getting a desired job is all about fitting in with whatever the employer thinks they want.
username Muse Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 837	__________________ "El sueno de la razon produce monstruos," or, "The sleep of reason produces monsters." -social critic / artist Goya

2nd November 2005, 01:12 PM	#6
Nyarlathotep Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 7,514	Originally Posted by Chaos On a separate angle, here in Germany we have something similar to what you are doing. They´re called "1-Euro-Job", because unemployed receive a minimal salary (actually about 1.25 to 1.5 Euro per hour) that they can keep in addition to their welfare payments. So far the program hasn´t done much to re-integrate unemployed into the workforce. It has, however, succeeded admirably in replacing regular jobs with 1-Euro-Jobs. It varies from state to state in the US but in Nevada they don't have a program like that.They DO however, make actively looking for employment (provided you are physically capable of working) a condition for continuing to receive welfare. Yeah its hard to find a job sometimes, but you can stay on welfare as long as youa re making a 'good faith' effort to find a job. I think it has worked pretty well. It's only anecdotal, to be sure, but I had a sister who was on welfare and as a result of the requirement, got a waitressing job, she has been steadily employed and has not gone back on welfare ever since. I know quite a few other personal stories of others, likewise. I think that's a much better solution than the '1-euro job'.
	__________________ Why stay sane in a sick world?

2nd November 2005, 09:35 AM	#2
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,192	Sorry, posted in wrong subforum. Was supposed to be posted in the Religion and Philosophy subforum.

2nd November 2005, 03:55 PM	#7
CBL4 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,349	Ryokan, Many small companies have a religious culture. I have been told that the company I work for used to give people time during the day to go to a nearby chapel. The most common complaint I hear about these days is so-called "Mormon companies." I am not sure if this is anti-Mormon bias by the complainants or whether there is a pro-Mormon bias within the company. I would bet it is a combination. Also for Mormons, their extensive social network could replace the golf course or fraternal organization for secondary business networking. CBL
CBL4 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,349

2nd November 2005, 04:50 PM	#8
merphie Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,890	Originally Posted by CBL4 Ryokan, Many small companies have a religious culture. I have been told that the company I work for used to give people time during the day to go to a nearby chapel. The most common complaint I hear about these days is so-called "Mormon companies." I am not sure if this is anti-Mormon bias by the complainants or whether there is a pro-Mormon bias within the company. I would bet it is a combination. Also for Mormons, their extensive social network could replace the golf course or fraternal organization for secondary business networking. CBL I was offered a job at some place once that had many religious activites. They had weekly religious meetings at the office. I refused the job because it conflicted with my personal views.
	__________________ "They that can give up Essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

2nd November 2005, 05:58 PM	#9
God Student Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 25	Originally Posted by Ryokan And all hell broke loose! You should've seen their faces! Of course we must teach Christian values to kids, how else can they learn to be moral human beings? I tried arguing with them, but they became quite agitated and angry, Yea...with christianity, your expected to go with the program, and be conditioned as they have been for many years. Throughout history and up until recently you would get the death penalty for teaching or practicing anything outside of christianity. Burned alive even. (as moral as christians are)?
God Student Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 25	__________________ Yes i have a computer to. I created the world did'nt I? Now....continue to love me with all your heart, or i'll fry your ass in hell! Last edited by God; 2nd November 2005 at 06:04 PM.

2nd November 2005, 06:50 PM	#10
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Originally Posted by Ryokan Since I'm from a different country than most of you, I'll have to paint you a background before I start my story. Sigh. Don't feel alone. Sounds like Norway is only a generation or so behind the US on the god aspect, and here there are lots of similar "job" opportunities. They are called working for commission (and pay your own expenses to promote someone else's business). Same difference. It's called "burn and churn".

3rd November 2005, 01:08 AM	#11
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,780	Originally Posted by Nyarlathotep It varies from state to state in the US but in Nevada they don't have a program like that.They DO however, make actively looking for employment (provided you are physically capable of working) a condition for continuing to receive welfare. Yeah its hard to find a job sometimes, but you can stay on welfare as long as youa re making a 'good faith' effort to find a job. I think it has worked pretty well. It's only anecdotal, to be sure, but I had a sister who was on welfare and as a result of the requirement, got a waitressing job, she has been steadily employed and has not gone back on welfare ever since. I know quite a few other personal stories of others, likewise. I think that's a much better solution than the '1-euro job'. So do I... and continously looking for work is a requirement for receiving welfare, too. But that would require work to be there for people to take. As it stands, we have 4.5 to 5 million unemployed and an estimated 400,000 job vacancies. Do the math yourself...
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous

3rd November 2005, 06:34 AM	#12
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Originally Posted by merphie I was offered a job at some place once that had many religious activites. They had weekly religious meetings at the office. I refused the job because it conflicted with my personal views. The company I work at has the little fish symbol on some of its business stationary and its web site. There are regular prayer meetings early in the morning in the conference room. Most everybody here is a regular church goer and Creationist. And you know what? It doesn't bother me one bit. I have found these people to be the nicest, most generous, kindest, warm-hearted people I have ever met. I could go on at very great length of the wonderful things they have done just this year alone for people less fortunate than them that would probably shame every last person here. I love these people. I really, really do. This is the best place I have ever worked.
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

3rd November 2005, 06:46 AM	#13
merphie Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,890	Originally Posted by Luke T. The company I work at has the little fish symbol on some of its business stationary and its web site. There are regular prayer meetings early in the morning in the conference room. Most everybody here is a regular church goer and Creationist. And you know what? It doesn't bother me one bit. I have found these people to be the nicest, most generous, kindest, warm-hearted people I have ever met. I could go on at very great length of the wonderful things they have done just this year alone for people less fortunate than them that would probably shame every last person here. I love these people. I really, really do. This is the best place I have ever worked. I have no doubt they were good people. I tend to believe most people are good. However, I refused the job on principle.
	__________________ "They that can give up Essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

5th November 2005, 06:00 AM	#14
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Originally Posted by Luke T. The company I work at has the little fish symbol on some of its business stationary and its web site. There are regular prayer meetings early in the morning in the conference room. Most everybody here is a regular church goer and Creationist. And you know what? It doesn't bother me one bit. I have found these people to be the nicest, most generous, kindest, warm-hearted people I have ever met. I could go on at very great length of the wonderful things they have done just this year alone for people less fortunate than them that would probably shame every last person here. I love these people. I really, really do. This is the best place I have ever worked. No doubt they are nice people. No one here is saying creationists can't be nice, just that they are ignorant. But what you don't describe is how they react to your views (presumably evolutionist?), nor whether you ever try to sincerely explain them those views, which inevitably means arguing that their core beliefs are based on ignorance of science. Have you come out of the closet yet?