Dover, PA school board tossed out!

ranson · 9th November 2005, 03:28 AM

Of the eight positions up for election in the Dover district, all were filled by new candidates from the Dover CARES opposition group. Good news, I think, and I'm glad that at least some voters still ascribe to the "throw the bums out" theory of politics.

Magyar · 9th November 2005, 04:29 AM

Well, that depends! What id Dover Cares care about?????

headscratcher4 · 10th November 2005, 06:41 AM

The question is will Kansas step up to the plate next year and throw their bums off the school board? Don't hold yer' breath...

TragicMonkey · 10th November 2005, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

The question is will Kansas step up to the plate next year and throw their bums off the school board? Don't hold yer' breath...

The only possible conclusion is that Pennsylvania evolved, while Kansas was intelligently designed.

Melendwyr · 10th November 2005, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

The only possible conclusion is that Pennsylvania evolved, while Kansas was intelligently designed.

What nonsense! The Dover School Board was clearly changed by the collective intelligence of the people. The changes in Kansas' standards are equally clearly not the result of any kind of intelligence.

TragicMonkey · 10th November 2005, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Melendwyr

What nonsense! The Dover School Board was clearly changed by the collective intelligence of the people. The changes in Kansas' standards are equally clearly not the result of any kind of intelligence.

Hmmm. New theory: Unintelligent Design.

Upchurch · 10th November 2005, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

The question is will Kansas step up to the plate next year and throw their bums off the school board?

...again.

It seems Kansas is at a "critical idiot point", which is the transition point between the modern era and middle ages mentality. A light change in idiocy one way or the other, takes the whole state over.

Seriously, though, this ilk has been voted out once before. I know next to nothing of Kansas politics, but I'd be willing to guess that these folks, like the old Dover board, were not elected the "re-bringing ID back to the classroom" platform, but something rather more benign like "better education" or "more financially responsible". I'd be willing to wadger that they'll be out again after the next election.

Mark · 10th November 2005, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

...again.

It seems Kansas is at a "critical idiot point", which is the transition point between the modern era and middle ages mentality. A light change in idiocy one way or the other, takes the whole state over.

Seriously, though, this ilk has been voted out once before. I know next to nothing of Kansas politics, but I'd be willing to guess that these folks, like the old Dover board, were not elected the "re-bringing ID back to the classroom" platform, but something rather more benign like "better education" or "more financially responsible". I'd be willing to wadger that they'll be out again after the next election.

2 of these nitwits just ran for school board in my town (they were defeated), using the "Family Values" mantra. The not-so-subtle message being that a vote against them was a vote against those values. I am pleasantly surprised it didn't work...although one of them did some within a hair's breadth of making it...

Upchurch · 10th November 2005, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Mark

2 of these nitwits just ran for school board in my town (they were defeated), using the "Family Values" mantra. The not-so-subtle message being that a vote against them was a vote against those values. I am pleasantly surprised it didn't work...although one of them did some within a hair's breadth of making it...

Did the "Family Values" specifically include ID or did you have any indication that they intended to push ID?

Mark · 10th November 2005, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Did the "Family Values" specifically include ID or did you have any indication that they intended to push ID?

Not in his campaign literature or signs or statements. He has brought it up in the past as a private citizen many times, which is why many of us were able to call him on it.

The other "ID candidate" is a preacher whose kids are in private religious schools. To be fair, I never personally heard him push ID, but it is taught as fact in the schools his kids attend.

fishbob · 10th November 2005, 09:14 AM

A great big difference between Kansas and Dover is that the IDiots controlled a local school board in Pennsylvania, but they control all the public schools in Kansas. Many more educations are at stake in Kansas.

Upchurch · 10th November 2005, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by fishbob

A great big difference between Kansas and Dover is that the IDiots controlled a local school board in Pennsylvania, but they control all the public schools in Kansas. Many more educations are at stake in Kansas.

The difference, as I see it, is only in scope. The root problem is the same.

ranson · 10th November 2005, 11:18 AM

I've often talked about running in my locality, but there's no way I'd win. Since I'm a relatively young, non-church-going, non-minority, pro-separation-of-church-and-state moderate Republican, I don't really stand a chance while I live in the south.

Oh, yeah; I play DnD, too.

With a teacher. That could be a career-ender for her if it got out.

headscratcher4 · 10th November 2005, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by ranson

I've often talked about running in my locality, but there's no way I'd win. Since I'm a relatively young, non-church-going, non-minority, pro-separation-of-church-and-state moderate Republican, I don't really stand a chance while I live in the south.

Oh, yeah; I play DnD, too.

With a teacher. That could be a career-ender for her if it got out.

If you've thought about running you should try it. If your credentials are what you say, and if you could add a voice of reason to the nonesense ID movement, than your's is a voice the needs to be heard, especially in the South. Yeah, you might not win -- at first -- but these people need to no that their redefinition of science will not go unchallenged.

pgwenthold · 11th November 2005, 06:21 AM

I heard something on the radio yesterday about Pat Robertson, and how he has gone off on the folks in Dover for voting out those board members. His comment was something like, "If you folks in Dover are hit by a disaster, don't look to God, because you just voted him out."

Aside from the inanity of the comment in the first place, doesn't he just kind of prove the point that regardless of what ID advocates say, everyone knows darn well who that "designer" is meant to be?

I love the comment from the plaintiff's attorney in the closing arguments: It couldn't be closer to God if you spotted them the G and the D.

C S Costa · 11th November 2005, 06:25 AM

It seems the Pat Robertson has something to say about the election too.
According to the Associated Press
He said they "voted God out of your city". And that "If they have future problems in Dover, I recommend they call on Charles Darwin. Maybe he can help them."
He makes Kilik sound like the voice of reason.

C S Costa · 11th November 2005, 06:26 AM

Sorry for the duplication, missed by a few seconds.

headscratcher4 · 11th November 2005, 06:35 AM

How does Roberston explain all of the natural disasters hitting the Red States. They had some strong rain in Massachusetts and the damn almost broke there in that town, but you would think that Massachusetts, NYC, San Fran. California as a whole, etc. would be a burned over, salt field...and yet, the next tornado to hit Dover and kill a couple of people in a trailer park will be an indication of God's wrath over the school board election...wow.

Vote for the Party of God!

RandFan · 11th November 2005, 07:16 AM

A little light of reason shines. That is good news AKA the gospel.

Melendwyr · 11th November 2005, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by C S Costa

And that "If they have future problems in Dover, I recommend they call on Charles Darwin. Maybe he can help them."

It would be so awesome if Charles Darwin appeared in a blaze of light to save the town.

Note to self: miniseries.

Checkmite · 11th November 2005, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Mark

2 of these nitwits just ran for school board in my town (they were defeated), using the "Family Values" mantra. The not-so-subtle message being that a vote against them was a vote against those values. I am pleasantly surprised it didn't work...although one of them did some within a hair's breadth of making it...

One person tried this a couple of years ago - without insinuation. The campaign signs literally said "A Vote For Family Values". The guy lost miserably; it seemed to me the ward residents were so offended at being "preached at" they they voted him down out of spite. Which is cool.

Checkmite · 11th November 2005, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Melendwyr

It would be so awesome if Charles Darwin appeared in a blaze of light to save the town.

Note to self: miniseries.

How could you tell the difference? The pictures I've seen of Darwin and God look uncannily similar.

On the other hand, I remember reading that the losing candidates in Dover tried to rationalize the defeat as not being about intelligent design vs. evolution, but rather that the constituency was dissatisfied about the long and expensive legal action, and "bad publicity for the town". Maybe, but...I think not.

Mark · 11th November 2005, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi

One person tried this a couple of years ago - without insinuation. The campaign signs literally said "A Vote For Family Values". The guy lost miserably; it seemed to me the ward residents were so offended at being "preached at" they they voted him down out of spite. Which is cool.

It is cool. It seems people are starting to realize what a transparent bit of cynical manipulation the whole "family values" thing is. I hope so, anyway.

headscratcher4 · 11th November 2005, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi

How could you tell the difference? The pictures I've seen of Darwin and God look uncannily similar.

On the other hand, I remember reading that the losing candidates in Dover tried to rationalize the defeat as not being about intelligent design vs. evolution, but rather that the constituency was dissatisfied about the long and expensive legal action, and "bad publicity for the town". Maybe, but...I think not.

But that would be about ID...bad publicity, the cost, etc. all came about because ID is bad science...

fishbob · 11th November 2005, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

The difference, as I see it, is only in scope. The root problem is the same.

Only scope?
Certainly the root problem is the same, but the scope difference is a lot bigger than 'only'.

Kids playing with matches can accidently burn up a Froot Loops box or accidently burn down an entire apartment complex.

Checkmite · 11th November 2005, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

The difference, as I see it, is only in scope. The root problem is the same.

I agree; the Scopes trial is different but that's only because evolution was on the defensive in that case. But in all of these cases, it's really evolution vs. creationism.

(

)

Tmy · 11th November 2005, 05:31 PM

Have you noticed God has been punishing all the red states via hurricanes n such. Its cause they voted for Bush.

TragicMonkey · 11th November 2005, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Tmy

Have you noticed God has been punishing all the red states via hurricanes n such. Its cause they voted for Bush.

The punishment for voting for Bush was that he won.

Dr Adequate · 11th November 2005, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi

On the other hand, I remember reading that the losing candidates in Dover tried to rationalize the defeat as not being about intelligent design vs. evolution, but rather that the constituency was dissatisfied about the long and expensive legal action, and "bad publicity for the town". Maybe, but...I think not.

I think so, to a large extent. Certainly I can see why people might vote not as an endorsement of Darwinism per se. There would be:

(1) They say it's all about two theories. I don't care what these scientists say about their theories. This is costing me money.

(2) I am for ID. However, this is a kamikaze action, which is costing me money.

(3) I am for ID, which I believe will eventually be proved the superior theory. However, we are not yet at the stage where we can get it into the schoolbooks, and Behe's flounderings on the witness stand and our association with religious crackpots makes us look stupid. And this is costing me money.

(4) I am for ID, and shall say so to my children. However, as the founding fathers recognised, even a little bit of theocracy is perilous to religion and democracy both. Oh, and this is costing me money.

(5) I am for ID. However, this should be worked out by scientists. Having this debate at a little, local level makes us look like Kipling's Village That Voted The World Was Flat. Oh, and it's costing me money.

(6) I am for ID, and would like to see it in public schools, but the clowns who said that they'd get it into public schools have perjured themselves on the witness stand and made us all look like idiots and liars. They are a liablity and must go. And they cost me money.

(7) I am for ID, but as various members of the board have revealed themselves as liars and fools I cannot in conscience support them even though I agree with them on this issue. Oh, and the money thing... we could maybe have spent it on something else?

(8) I am for ID and would like to see it taught in classrooms. However the testimony of Behe shows that Pandas and People misrepresents ID, and so does not teach it; and misrepresents evolution, which doesn't come under my idea of treating the two theories equally. But I'm paying good money for the defense of this inaccurate "textbook".

Etc, etc. And you can also combine numbers 2 - 8 with consistency.

I think there might have been a very different result if everything had gone well in the Pandas triel. Instead, the good people of Dover want to make it clear that it is not they who are a laughng stock..

zenith-nadir · 12th November 2005, 05:11 AM

TRANSLATION:

"We - the Dover, Pa. school board members - are unable to understand the complexity of living things so any phenomenon or feature that cannot be fully explained to us is evidence of supernatural intervention".

BPSCG · 12th November 2005, 05:38 AM

December issue of Skeptical Inquirer magazine has a letter from a very sharp guy named John Clinger. Can't link to it on CSICOP's website, but here's an extract from the letter. Remember it next time you have to speak at a school board hearing:

Quote:

How many designers were there? (One per solar system? One per planet?)
Were there different designers for mammals, reptiles, insects, etc.?
Were there competing designers, such as for predators vs prey?
Were there subsequent designers? (The Wright brothers may have designed the first successful plane, but they did not design the 747.)
Is the original designer still designing, or retired? (Or dead?)
Did the designer make mistakes? (If not, why have millions of women died during natural childbirth? Why did dinosaurs and variouis species of protohumans die out?)
Is mankind a better designer than the original? (Are eyeglasses, heart pacemakers, insulin shots, artifical hips, incubators, etc., evidence of improvements mankind has made on the poor original design?)
Is only one inhabitable pplanet in this solar system evidence of massive inefficiency on the part of the designer? (Is this worse than the typical government program?)
Who designed the designer? (If the original designer didn't need to be designed, then why does anything else?)
Are we made in the designer's image? If so, what does the designer need legs for?

Note that the purpose of these questions is not to persuade the IDiot that he's wrong, but rather to demonstrate (to your school board?) that the IDiot is trying to peddle religion dressed up as science.

9th November 2005, 03:28 AM	#1
ranson Scheme Monkey Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,049	Dover, PA school board tossed out! Of the eight positions up for election in the Dover district, all were filled by new candidates from the Dover CARES opposition group. Good news, I think, and I'm glad that at least some voters still ascribe to the "throw the bums out" theory of politics.
ranson Scheme Monkey Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,049

9th November 2005, 04:29 AM	#2
Magyar Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: the edge of reason Posts: 1,548	Well, that depends! What id Dover Cares care about?????
	__________________ "There is no heresy or no philosophy which is so abhorrent to the church as a human being." James Joyce Due to recent cutbacks the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.

10th November 2005, 06:41 AM	#3
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	The question is will Kansas step up to the plate next year and throw their bums off the school board? Don't hold yer' breath...
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

10th November 2005, 08:41 AM	#4
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,112	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 The question is will Kansas step up to the plate next year and throw their bums off the school board? Don't hold yer' breath... The only possible conclusion is that Pennsylvania evolved, while Kansas was intelligently designed.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

10th November 2005, 08:44 AM	#5
Melendwyr Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,064	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey The only possible conclusion is that Pennsylvania evolved, while Kansas was intelligently designed. What nonsense! The Dover School Board was clearly changed by the collective intelligence of the people. The changes in Kansas' standards are equally clearly not the result of any kind of intelligence.
Melendwyr Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,064	__________________ Arguing with the irrational is like giving medicine to a dead man or preaching to the damned. "Dance with us, GIR! Dance with us into oblivion!" "Oddly, stating that one has no creed assures that one has no creed." -- Upchurch "I am the only one here using reason." -- Interesting Ian "You cannot respond to the arguments of TIMECUBE!" -- TimeCube guy

10th November 2005, 08:46 AM	#6
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,112	Originally Posted by Melendwyr What nonsense! The Dover School Board was clearly changed by the collective intelligence of the people. The changes in Kansas' standards are equally clearly not the result of any kind of intelligence. Hmmm. New theory: Unintelligent Design.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

10th November 2005, 08:51 AM	#7
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,428	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 The question is will Kansas step up to the plate next year and throw their bums off the school board? ...again. It seems Kansas is at a "critical idiot point", which is the transition point between the modern era and middle ages mentality. A light change in idiocy one way or the other, takes the whole state over. Seriously, though, this ilk has been voted out once before. I know next to nothing of Kansas politics, but I'd be willing to guess that these folks, like the old Dover board, were not elected the "re-bringing ID back to the classroom" platform, but something rather more benign like "better education" or "more financially responsible". I'd be willing to wadger that they'll be out again after the next election.

10th November 2005, 08:55 AM	#8
Mark Former Spinal Tap Drummer Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,529	Originally Posted by Upchurch ...again. It seems Kansas is at a "critical idiot point", which is the transition point between the modern era and middle ages mentality. A light change in idiocy one way or the other, takes the whole state over. Seriously, though, this ilk has been voted out once before. I know next to nothing of Kansas politics, but I'd be willing to guess that these folks, like the old Dover board, were not elected the "re-bringing ID back to the classroom" platform, but something rather more benign like "better education" or "more financially responsible". I'd be willing to wadger that they'll be out again after the next election. 2 of these nitwits just ran for school board in my town (they were defeated), using the "Family Values" mantra. The not-so-subtle message being that a vote against them was a vote against those values. I am pleasantly surprised it didn't work...although one of them did some within a hair's breadth of making it...
	__________________ "Give me immortality or give me death!"---The Firesign Theatre

10th November 2005, 08:57 AM	#9
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,428	Originally Posted by Mark 2 of these nitwits just ran for school board in my town (they were defeated), using the "Family Values" mantra. The not-so-subtle message being that a vote against them was a vote against those values. I am pleasantly surprised it didn't work...although one of them did some within a hair's breadth of making it... Did the "Family Values" specifically include ID or did you have any indication that they intended to push ID?

10th November 2005, 09:01 AM	#10
Mark Former Spinal Tap Drummer Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,529	Originally Posted by Upchurch Did the "Family Values" specifically include ID or did you have any indication that they intended to push ID? Not in his campaign literature or signs or statements. He has brought it up in the past as a private citizen many times, which is why many of us were able to call him on it. The other "ID candidate" is a preacher whose kids are in private religious schools. To be fair, I never personally heard him push ID, but it is taught as fact in the schools his kids attend.
	__________________ "Give me immortality or give me death!"---The Firesign Theatre

10th November 2005, 09:14 AM	#11
fishbob Seasonally Disaffected Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chilly Undieville Posts: 5,667	A great big difference between Kansas and Dover is that the IDiots controlled a local school board in Pennsylvania, but they control all the public schools in Kansas. Many more educations are at stake in Kansas.
	__________________ When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder "Stupidity - a callow indifference to facts or data" - Stuart Firestein -neuroscientist. I hate bigots.

10th November 2005, 09:26 AM	#12
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,428	Originally Posted by fishbob A great big difference between Kansas and Dover is that the IDiots controlled a local school board in Pennsylvania, but they control all the public schools in Kansas. Many more educations are at stake in Kansas. The difference, as I see it, is only in scope. The root problem is the same.

10th November 2005, 11:18 AM	#13
ranson Scheme Monkey Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,049	I've often talked about running in my locality, but there's no way I'd win. Since I'm a relatively young, non-church-going, non-minority, pro-separation-of-church-and-state moderate Republican, I don't really stand a chance while I live in the south. Oh, yeah; I play DnD, too. With a teacher. That could be a career-ender for her if it got out.
ranson Scheme Monkey Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,049

10th November 2005, 12:14 PM	#14
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	Originally Posted by ranson I've often talked about running in my locality, but there's no way I'd win. Since I'm a relatively young, non-church-going, non-minority, pro-separation-of-church-and-state moderate Republican, I don't really stand a chance while I live in the south. Oh, yeah; I play DnD, too. With a teacher. That could be a career-ender for her if it got out. If you've thought about running you should try it. If your credentials are what you say, and if you could add a voice of reason to the nonesense ID movement, than your's is a voice the needs to be heard, especially in the South. Yeah, you might not win -- at first -- but these people need to no that their redefinition of science will not go unchallenged.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

11th November 2005, 06:21 AM	#15
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,074	I heard something on the radio yesterday about Pat Robertson, and how he has gone off on the folks in Dover for voting out those board members. His comment was something like, "If you folks in Dover are hit by a disaster, don't look to God, because you just voted him out." Aside from the inanity of the comment in the first place, doesn't he just kind of prove the point that regardless of what ID advocates say, everyone knows darn well who that "designer" is meant to be? I love the comment from the plaintiff's attorney in the closing arguments: It couldn't be closer to God if you spotted them the G and the D.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

11th November 2005, 06:25 AM	#16
C S Costa Scholar Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Out in the New Jersey pines. Posts: 106	It seems the Pat Robertson has something to say about the election too. According to the Associated Press He said they "voted God out of your city". And that "If they have future problems in Dover, I recommend they call on Charles Darwin. Maybe he can help them." He makes Kilik sound like the voice of reason.

11th November 2005, 06:26 AM	#17
C S Costa Scholar Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Out in the New Jersey pines. Posts: 106	Sorry for the duplication, missed by a few seconds.

11th November 2005, 06:35 AM	#18
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	How does Roberston explain all of the natural disasters hitting the Red States. They had some strong rain in Massachusetts and the damn almost broke there in that town, but you would think that Massachusetts, NYC, San Fran. California as a whole, etc. would be a burned over, salt field...and yet, the next tornado to hit Dover and kill a couple of people in a trailer park will be an indication of God's wrath over the school board election...wow. Vote for the Party of God!
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

11th November 2005, 07:16 AM	#19
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,398	A little light of reason shines. That is good news AKA the gospel.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

11th November 2005, 07:23 AM	#20
Melendwyr Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,064	Originally Posted by C S Costa And that "If they have future problems in Dover, I recommend they call on Charles Darwin. Maybe he can help them." It would be so awesome if Charles Darwin appeared in a blaze of light to save the town. Note to self: miniseries.
Melendwyr Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,064	__________________ Arguing with the irrational is like giving medicine to a dead man or preaching to the damned. "Dance with us, GIR! Dance with us into oblivion!" "Oddly, stating that one has no creed assures that one has no creed." -- Upchurch "I am the only one here using reason." -- Interesting Ian "You cannot respond to the arguments of TIMECUBE!" -- TimeCube guy

11th November 2005, 11:51 AM	#21
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,896	Originally Posted by Mark 2 of these nitwits just ran for school board in my town (they were defeated), using the "Family Values" mantra. The not-so-subtle message being that a vote against them was a vote against those values. I am pleasantly surprised it didn't work...although one of them did some within a hair's breadth of making it... One person tried this a couple of years ago - without insinuation. The campaign signs literally said "A Vote For Family Values". The guy lost miserably; it seemed to me the ward residents were so offended at being "preached at" they they voted him down out of spite. Which is cool.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

11th November 2005, 11:53 AM	#22
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,896	Originally Posted by Melendwyr It would be so awesome if Charles Darwin appeared in a blaze of light to save the town. Note to self: miniseries. How could you tell the difference? The pictures I've seen of Darwin and God look uncannily similar. On the other hand, I remember reading that the losing candidates in Dover tried to rationalize the defeat as not being about intelligent design vs. evolution, but rather that the constituency was dissatisfied about the long and expensive legal action, and "bad publicity for the town". Maybe, but...I think not.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

11th November 2005, 12:50 PM	#23
Mark Former Spinal Tap Drummer Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,529	Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi One person tried this a couple of years ago - without insinuation. The campaign signs literally said "A Vote For Family Values". The guy lost miserably; it seemed to me the ward residents were so offended at being "preached at" they they voted him down out of spite. Which is cool. It is cool. It seems people are starting to realize what a transparent bit of cynical manipulation the whole "family values" thing is. I hope so, anyway.
	__________________ "Give me immortality or give me death!"---The Firesign Theatre

11th November 2005, 12:55 PM	#24
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi How could you tell the difference? The pictures I've seen of Darwin and God look uncannily similar. On the other hand, I remember reading that the losing candidates in Dover tried to rationalize the defeat as not being about intelligent design vs. evolution, but rather that the constituency was dissatisfied about the long and expensive legal action, and "bad publicity for the town". Maybe, but...I think not. But that would be about ID...bad publicity, the cost, etc. all came about because ID is bad science...
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

11th November 2005, 02:13 PM	#25
fishbob Seasonally Disaffected Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chilly Undieville Posts: 5,667	Originally Posted by Upchurch The difference, as I see it, is only in scope. The root problem is the same. Only scope? Certainly the root problem is the same, but the scope difference is a lot bigger than 'only'. Kids playing with matches can accidently burn up a Froot Loops box or accidently burn down an entire apartment complex.
	__________________ When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder "Stupidity - a callow indifference to facts or data" - Stuart Firestein -neuroscientist. I hate bigots.

11th November 2005, 02:18 PM	#26
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,896	Originally Posted by Upchurch The difference, as I see it, is only in scope. The root problem is the same. I agree; the Scopes trial is different but that's only because evolution was on the defensive in that case. But in all of these cases, it's really evolution vs. creationism. ( )
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

11th November 2005, 05:31 PM	#27
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Have you noticed God has been punishing all the red states via hurricanes n such. Its cause they voted for Bush.
	__________________ "Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without." -shanek

11th November 2005, 06:21 PM	#28
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,112	Originally Posted by Tmy Have you noticed God has been punishing all the red states via hurricanes n such. Its cause they voted for Bush. The punishment for voting for Bush was that he won.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

11th November 2005, 09:56 PM	#29
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,897	Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi On the other hand, I remember reading that the losing candidates in Dover tried to rationalize the defeat as not being about intelligent design vs. evolution, but rather that the constituency was dissatisfied about the long and expensive legal action, and "bad publicity for the town". Maybe, but...I think not. I think so, to a large extent. Certainly I can see why people might vote not as an endorsement of Darwinism per se. There would be: (1) They say it's all about two theories. I don't care what these scientists say about their theories. This is costing me money. (2) I am for ID. However, this is a kamikaze action, which is costing me money. (3) I am for ID, which I believe will eventually be proved the superior theory. However, we are not yet at the stage where we can get it into the schoolbooks, and Behe's flounderings on the witness stand and our association with religious crackpots makes us look stupid. And this is costing me money. (4) I am for ID, and shall say so to my children. However, as the founding fathers recognised, even a little bit of theocracy is perilous to religion and democracy both. Oh, and this is costing me money. (5) I am for ID. However, this should be worked out by scientists. Having this debate at a little, local level makes us look like Kipling's Village That Voted The World Was Flat. Oh, and it's costing me money. (6) I am for ID, and would like to see it in public schools, but the clowns who said that they'd get it into public schools have perjured themselves on the witness stand and made us all look like idiots and liars. They are a liablity and must go. And they cost me money. (7) I am for ID, but as various members of the board have revealed themselves as liars and fools I cannot in conscience support them even though I agree with them on this issue. Oh, and the money thing... we could maybe have spent it on something else? (8) I am for ID and would like to see it taught in classrooms. However the testimony of Behe shows that Pandas and People misrepresents ID, and so does not teach it; and misrepresents evolution, which doesn't come under my idea of treating the two theories equally. But I'm paying good money for the defense of this inaccurate "textbook". Etc, etc. And you can also combine numbers 2 - 8 with consistency. I think there might have been a very different result if everything had gone well in the Pandas triel. Instead, the good people of Dover want to make it clear that it is not they who are a laughng stock..

12th November 2005, 05:11 AM	#30
zenith-nadir Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,500	TRANSLATION: "We - the Dover, Pa. school board members - are unable to understand the complexity of living things so any phenomenon or feature that cannot be fully explained to us is evidence of supernatural intervention".
	__________________ The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled. -- Plutarch

12th November 2005, 05:38 AM	#31
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	December issue of Skeptical Inquirer magazine has a letter from a very sharp guy named John Clinger. Can't link to it on CSICOP's website, but here's an extract from the letter. Remember it next time you have to speak at a school board hearing: Quote: How many designers were there? (One per solar system? One per planet?) Were there different designers for mammals, reptiles, insects, etc.? Were there competing designers, such as for predators vs prey? Were there subsequent designers? (The Wright brothers may have designed the first successful plane, but they did not design the 747.) Is the original designer still designing, or retired? (Or dead?) Did the designer make mistakes? (If not, why have millions of women died during natural childbirth? Why did dinosaurs and variouis species of protohumans die out?) Is mankind a better designer than the original? (Are eyeglasses, heart pacemakers, insulin shots, artifical hips, incubators, etc., evidence of improvements mankind has made on the poor original design?) Is only one inhabitable pplanet in this solar system evidence of massive inefficiency on the part of the designer? (Is this worse than the typical government program?) Who designed the designer? (If the original designer didn't need to be designed, then why does anything else?) Are we made in the designer's image? If so, what does the designer need legs for? Note that the purpose of these questions is not to persuade the IDiot that he's wrong, but rather to demonstrate (to your school board?) that the IDiot is trying to peddle religion dressed up as science.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia. Last edited by BPSCG; 12th November 2005 at 05:40 AM.