Atheists without fathers

FireGarden · 3rd February 2003, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Most Atheists come from a family where the father was missing, dead, weak or abusive. Paul C. Vitz has written a very interesting book entitled Faith of the Fatherless: The Psychology of Atheism (Spence, 1999).

How one views God is directly related to how your relationship with your father was. If your father was distant than God will feel distant. If you hated your father, you will most likely have hatred for God. This is the case with Madalyn Murray O'Hair and many other Atheists.

from the Institute For Biblical and Scientific Studies

arcticpenguin · 3rd February 2003, 11:26 AM

My father was none of the above. He was a terrific guy.

But technically, he died my last year of high school and I didn't convert to atheism until a couple of years at college. And my conversion was intellectual, not emotional, so I don't see how it would be relevant.

3rd February 2003, 11:31 AM

The premise is absurd on the face of it, because it leaves out the entire body of atheists who reached that decision intellectually as an adult.

My dad was a great guy, and none of my glaring faults are his fault.

Skeptical Greg · 3rd February 2003, 11:45 AM

I did not have a post fertilization dad in my life, but this reasoning is absurd!

How come this idiot did not address God's apparent lack of concern for fatherless Atheists?

Doesn't look like he made any extra effort to reveal himself to those in need of some extra care..

headscratcher4 · 3rd February 2003, 11:48 AM

Interesting reasoning. I note that Jesus' "dad" was missing, and his "step" father could never live up to the "real" father's image. Amazing Ol' J-man didn't become an atheist.

Stimpson J. Cat · 3rd February 2003, 12:18 PM

headscratcher,

Quote:

Interesting reasoning. I note that Jesus' "dad" was missing, and his "step" father could never live up to the "real" father's image. Amazing Ol' J-man didn't become an atheist.

Maybe he did. After all, theists are constantly claiming that atheists believe that they are God.

Dr. Stupid

Fade · 3rd February 2003, 02:23 PM

Ridiculous.

Dub · 3rd February 2003, 02:54 PM

Is it me or do all the arguments for the existence of God run "A is ____, B is _____; therefore, God must exist" Fill in the blanks with whatever takes your fancy.

On a side note. The 'Institute' was recently given a 14.9 arce park. They nicknamed the park 'Triassic Park'. Quite ironic that some christian believe that the Earth isnt even as old as the triassic period.

c4ts · 3rd February 2003, 03:03 PM

I suppose that makes me a statistical anomaly.

Why don't they do a survey relating intelligence quotient to atheism? They might find more consistent results.

Cecil · 3rd February 2003, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by c4ts
I suppose that makes me a statistical anomaly. Why don't they do a survey relating intelligence quotient to atheism? They might find more consistent results.

Oh, but they have. Many times. http://www.objectivethought.com/atheism/iqstats.html

Mr. Skinny · 3rd February 2003, 04:29 PM

My father wasn't missing, nor was he weak or abusive. I got along with him very well. Unfortunately he died about five years ago. I think it was that stuff they tried to teach me in Catholic grade school about the communion host and wine becoming the actual body and blood of christ that got me started on the road to skeptical thinking.

Cecil, that was an interesting link. Thanks for providing it.

Hypocolius · 4th February 2003, 06:40 AM

My dad was a fantastic guy, and I loved him to bits. In addition he was the only even slightly religious member of my family, my mother is, and always was an atheist. She and Dad (a la carte Catholic) agreed to let me and my brother make up our own minds about theism (neither of us ended up believing in god at all). This "study" is an attempt to liken atheism to a psychological illness, and is an insult to free-thinking people, and their fathers.

Franko · 4th February 2003, 07:22 AM

Quote:

This "study" is an attempt to liken atheism to a psychological illness, and is an insult to free-thinking people, and their fathers.

A-Theists are also far far less likely to make dontaions to charity then a Theist.

I guess -- so much for empirical evidence??? "Empirical evidence" is only useful when it proves your point, but as soon as it starts to work against your religion, then it is time to fall back on good'ol reliable Dogma.

A-Theism is a psychological illness ... deal with it.

pgwenthold · 4th February 2003, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko

A-Theists are also far far less likely to make dontaions to charity then a Theist.

Well, I can agree that I don't give a lot of money to churches.

How do they compare in terms of giving to non-religious charities?

While my (religious) parents give more money to charity overall than I do, all of it goes to the church, while mine goes to public education.

Franko · 4th February 2003, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Well, I can agree that I don't give a lot of money to churches.

Charities <> Churches

Quote:

How do they compare in terms of giving to non-religious charities?

Theists tend to donate at least 3 times more (per individual) then A-Theists.

Quote:

While my (religious) parents give more money to charity overall than I do, all of it goes to the church, while mine goes to public education.

Your “donations” go to public education? Yeah … I pay property taxes too.

Look, it’s not as if there is an omniscient “god” watching and keeping an account of your “good deeds”. You have “free will”, so you don’t really need to worry about consequences for your actions like a Theist does.

hard_head · 4th February 2003, 10:31 AM

My dad still is a great guy. We go fishing every chance we get.
Despite the fact that he dropped out of school at an early age (around 6th grade) to go to work during the depression he has always been fascinated by science. I can remember watching Cosmos with he and my mom. He used to have me tape shows off the Discovery Channel for him, and space and the space missions fascinate him no end.

So pfffftt to the arse who thinks we all had abusive absent fathers, mine has been a great guy for my first 46 years of life, I hope he is around for my next 46.

Franko · 4th February 2003, 10:40 AM

So how’s the weather in B’more today?

Quote:

So pfffftt to the arse who thinks we all had abusive absent fathers, mine has been a great guy for my first 46 years of life, I hope he is around for my next 46.

Other than pessimism, what is your evidence that you will cease to exist when you die?

Let me ask you this, when your character gets killed in the computer game QUAKE, are you also dead? Why is it that the best option you have been able to conceive of for your ultimate Fate is “ceasing to exist”?

To me that sounds like a psychological problem? Is you Dad an A-Theist (pessimist/cynic)? Maybe you inherited it from him?

pgwenthold · 4th February 2003, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko

Charities <> Churches

While not all charities are churches, all churches are charities.

Quote:

Theists tend to donate at least 3 times more (per individual) then A-Theists.

Does that include their contributions to churches?

Quote:

Your “donations” go to public education? Yeah … I pay property taxes too.

[/b]

Nope, I give money directly to academic programs of the local university every year.

I also pay a bunch of property taxes, but that is not what I am talking about.

I know you can't stand it when people do things that shake your misguided world view, but that's the way it is.

Franko · 4th February 2003, 10:54 AM

Quote:

I know you can't stand it when people do things that shake your misguided world view, but that's the way it is.

When you have some evidence that people who don’t believe in Rewards & Punishments (positive ad negative reinforcements) behave as morally as those who do, then I’ll believe your religion is the “One True Faith”. Until then, it’s your misguided worldview that is being shaken – not mine.

CWL · 4th February 2003, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko

When you have some evidence that people who don’t believe in Rewards & Punishments (positive ad negative reinforcements) behave as morally as those who do, then I’ll believe your religion is the “One True Faith”. Until then, it’s your misguided worldview that is being shaken – not mine.

Franko,

Who exactly are you claiming doesn't believe in "positive and negative reinforcements"?

pgwenthold · 4th February 2003, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko

When you have some evidence that people who don’t believe in Rewards & Punishments (positive ad negative reinforcements)

As CWL notes, this is a strawman.

If you get your head out of the hole, you might learn something. Instead of denying that I might do such a thing, why not ask _why_ I would do such a thing?

Franko · 4th February 2003, 11:56 AM

Quote:

CWL: (A-Theist/Lawyer)
Who exactly are you claiming doesn't believe in "positive and negative reinforcements"?

Jesus Christ CWL after months and months of debating this point you are suddenly gonna pretend that you haven’t been claiming what you have obviously been claiming? You had better be careful with me Hellspawn, or I am going to trick you into admitting that you never actually had any “free will”.

Quote:

pgwenthold:

As CWL notes, this is a strawman.

CWL is a strawman.

Quote:

If you get your head out of the hole, you might learn something. Instead of denying that I might do such a thing, why not ask _why_ I would do such a thing?

It’s simple pgwenthold, do you ever walk around your house in your underwear? Ever go out in public like that?

By the same token I believe that my Goddess is ALWAYS watching me, ALWAYS keeping a tally of my good deeds and misdeeds. I behave accordingly. You on the other hand don’t think that anyone is watching, and you are parading around in your underwear like a fool.

Yahzi · 4th February 2003, 12:07 PM

My dad was gone for most of my life (divorce and Vietnam).

But he came back when I was an adult and tried to convert me to fundiesm.

Ironically, he was given up for adoption as a child. But he was adopted by fundies, so I guess that evens out.

pgwenthold · 4th February 2003, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko

It’s simple pgwenthold, do you ever walk around your house in your underwear? Ever go out in public like that?

By the same token I believe that my Goddess is ALWAYS watching me, ALWAYS keeping a tally of my good deeds and misdeeds. I behave accordingly. You on the other hand don’t think that anyone is watching, and you are parading around in your underwear like a fool.

I gotta admit, I haven't a friggin clue about what you are talkig about.

As far as I can tell, you get some sort of thrill out of parading around in front of your goddess in your underwear. Do you have some other point?

CWL · 4th February 2003, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko
Jesus Christ CWL after months and months of debating this point you are suddenly gonna pretend that you haven’t been claiming what you have obviously been claiming? You had better be careful with me Hellspawn, or I am going to trick you into admitting that you never actually had any “free will”.

What's up with this "Jesus Christ" business, Franko? Have you reverted to your old beliefs? What does your Goddess think of you having other gods beside herself? And what do you think Christ would think of you Goddess?

All jokes aside. You can demonstrate that you are not a liar by linking to any specific statement of mine that shows that I now "pretend that I haven’t been claiming what I have obviously been claiming".

Of course you won't. Because you can't.

Quote:

CWL is a strawman.

I can assure you I am neither a strawman nor a figment of your imagination, my solipsistic little friend.

Quote:

It’s simple pgwenthold, do you ever walk around your house in your underwear? Ever go out in public like that?

By the same token I believe that my Goddess is ALWAYS watching me, ALWAYS keeping a tally of my good deeds and misdeeds. I behave accordingly. You on the other hand don’t think that anyone is watching, and you are parading around in your underwear like a fool.

"Always watching you" eh? Scary stuff.

Franko · 4th February 2003, 12:09 PM

Quote:

I gotta admit, I haven't a friggin clue about what you are talkig about.

As far as I can tell, you get some sort of thrill out of parading around in front of your goddess in your underwear. Do you have some other point?

yeah, my point is that when you don't think your being watched you behave differently. But I don't expect YOU or any other A-Theist to concede this obvious fact ... and that is my real point.

pgwenthold · 4th February 2003, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko

yeah, my point is that when you don't think your being watched you behave differently. But I don't expect YOU or any other A-Theist to concede this obvious fact ... and that is my real point.

Why does your goddess care whether you walk around in your underwear when you are at home?

Franko · 4th February 2003, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Why does your goddess care whether you walk around in your underwear when you are at home?

She doesn't. She thinks I look "studly" in my underwear.

pgwenthold · 4th February 2003, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko

She doesn't. She thinks I look "studly" in my underwear.

OK, so apparently you have the shades closed and are not disturbing _anyone_, not even indirectly.

So tell me why it's wrong?

Wile E. Coyote · 4th February 2003, 12:28 PM

The Roman Catholic church is the biggest charity in the world, and what do they do with their money? They build ornate cathedrals, shower the upper clergy with riches, and generally waste it on non-charitable activities.

Perhaps atheists are just smart enough to give money to where it will be used towards a known, specific purpose. I would bet a lot of theists give money to charity to buy their way into heaven.

It is probably better for those in need of charity if you buy some product, stimulate the economy, and give some poor unfortunate a job. Churches employ a very small percentage of the population, after all.

Of course, this is all baseless speculation.

arcticpenguin · 4th February 2003, 12:37 PM

It seems clear that the source of Mr. Vitz's data was not the JREF board.

Franko · 4th February 2003, 01:04 PM

Quote:

It seems clear that the source of Mr. Vitz's data was not the JREF board.

What makes you assume that all of the A-Theists here are answering honestly?

It is fairly obvious that the majority of A-Theists in this thread don't want this to be True. Are you saying that will not manifest itself in any way in the poll results?

Are you really that naive, or do you actually have a non-dogmatic line of reasoning for your Faith?

FireGarden · 4th February 2003, 01:25 PM

What I find strange is that the argument actually strengthens the atheistic point of view. It's the same with the section they have on "the God-part of the Brain", where they say that "Michael Persinger stimulates the temporal lobes with a magnetic field to produce spiritual experiences. He can seemingly change an atheist into a theist"

If either argument had been true, it would not have been evidence for God. It would be a mundane, materialistic explanation for why some people believe in God. (Especially when they add that these experiences can be triggered by stressful events, oxygen deprivation and sleeplessness etc.)

Was that their intent?

Franko · 4th February 2003, 01:28 PM

Quote:

What I find strange is that the argument actually strengthens the atheistic point of view. It's the same with the section they have on "the God-part of the Brain", where they say that "Michael Persinger stimulates the temporal lobes with a magnetic field to produce spiritual experiences. He can seemingly change an atheist into a theist"

If either argument had been true, it would not have been evidence for God. It would be a mundane, materialistic explanation for why some people believe in God. (Especially when they add that these experiences can be triggered by stressful events, oxygen deprivation and sleeplessness etc.)

Was that their intent?

Ohhh, it's all Fated by the Laws of Physics Goodpropoganda (whether you are a Theist or A-Theist).

What else could it be?

Surely you weren't suggesting its magic???

Ian Osborne · 4th February 2003, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko
I believe that my Goddess is ALWAYS watching me, ALWAYS keeping a tally of my good deeds and misdeeds. I behave accordingly. You on the other hand don’t think that anyone is watching.

OK, you get the chance to steal a wallet. No chance of getting caught in the act - none at all. And there's no one watching who would think any less of you. There are no secular consequences to this act, beyond getting a little richer. Do you do it?

You would (if I've read you correctly) say 'no', fearing ultimate retribution from your Goddess. I would not do it because I *personally* think it's wrong - I don't need a deity to tell me so. Doesn't this make me more moral than you?

Franko · 4th February 2003, 01:50 PM

Ian Ozborne,

Quote:

OK, you get the chance to steal a wallet. No chance of getting caught in the act - none at all. And there's no one watching who would think any less of you. There are no secular consequences to this act, beyond getting a little richer. Do you do it?

No, because ultimately it would be no different then me borrowing the money and then having to pay it back with interest later.

Quote:

You would (if I've read you correctly) say 'no', fearing ultimate retribution from your Goddess. I would not do it because I *personally* think it's wrong - I don't need a deity to tell me so. Doesn't this make me more moral than you?

The one of us who doesn’t actually steal the wallet is more moral.

But why won’t you steal the wallet Really? If you have everything to gain, and nothing to lose, then either you are being naïve, or you are lying to me.

If you live your life as if there might be a god, then why not just be honest and state that you live your life as if there might be a god? Why not just call yourself an Agnostic???

c4ts · 4th February 2003, 02:10 PM

I can't argue with the statistics, but I'm not sure I understand why studies of a correlation between atheism and theism are brought up in the conclusion, when the statistics presented are about a correlation between atheism and intelligence.

Quote:

According to the Skeptic magazine vol.6 #2 1998, in multiple studies, there is a negative correlation between theism and morality. By Franzblau's 1934 study, there's a negative correlation between religiousity and honesty. Ross 1950 shows atheists and agnostics are more likely to express their willingness to help the poor than the deeply religious. 1969 Hirschi and Stark found no correlation in lawbreaking by churchgoing children and non-churchgoing children.

It could be the reason there are more honest theists than atheists is becasue there are more theists than atheists, which would explain why Hirschi and Stark said there was no correlation, but there are no statistics demonstrating a majority of either atheists or theists in the statistics presented by the study, except in the fields of science where atheists are a majority. So all we really have are quantity x of theists and quantity y of atheists, and we don't know anything about the sets other than the portions that are talked about, which are without a proportion between sets (x:y) or the portions to their respective sets (a/x:b/y, where a is the quantity of honest theists and b is the quantity of of honests athiests). So why include these results? Is there an implied correlation between intelligence and morality or something?

Ian Osborne · 5th February 2003, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko
But why won’t you steal the wallet Really? If you have everything to gain, and nothing to lose, then either you are being naïve, or you are lying to me.

I wouldn't steal the wallet because I consider theft to be immoral. You wouldn't steal the wallet out of fear of the consequences. I am neither naive or lying. Hard as it is for you to grasp, morals are NOT the sole preserve of the theist.

Quote:

If you live your life as if there might be a god, then why not just be honest and state that you live your life as if there might be a god? Why not just call yourself an Agnostic???

Once again, I don't need a god to make me behave in a moral way. I would leave that wallet alone not on the off-chance that I'm wrong about there being a god, but because it isn't mine and I don't steal.

hard_head · 5th February 2003, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko
So how’s the weather in B’more today?

Other than pessimism, what is your evidence that you will cease to exist when you die?

Let me ask you this, when your character gets killed in the computer game QUAKE, are you also dead? Why is it that the best option you have been able to conceive of for your ultimate Fate is “ceasing to exist”?

To me that sounds like a psychological problem? Is you Dad an A-Theist (pessimist/cynic)? Maybe you inherited it from him?

The weather is cold and windy
What pessimism?
Absence of evidence to the contrary
Ultimate Fate? gimme a break, life is about living, it's the journey not the destination.

Tricky · 5th February 2003, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ian Osborne
Once again, I don't need a god to make me behave in a moral way. I would leave that wallet alone not on the off-chance that I'm wrong about there being a god, but because it isn't mine and I don't steal.

As would the vast majority of us.
What you need to realize is that Franko has no concept of empathy. We had best hope that he never loses his belief in cosmic punishment, because without it, he would be instantly off on a crime spree. It is obvious to all that he cares nothing for humanity, but only for his own miserable graviton.

Pet shop	2	5.00%
Breeder	3	7.50%
Friend/word of mouth	1	2.50%
pound/rescue centre	15	37.50%
I don't have a pet	4	10.00%
other (please explain)	15	37.50%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

3rd February 2003, 11:18 AM	#1
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Atheists without fathers Quote: Most Atheists come from a family where the father was missing, dead, weak or abusive. Paul C. Vitz has written a very interesting book entitled Faith of the Fatherless: The Psychology of Atheism (Spence, 1999). How one views God is directly related to how your relationship with your father was. If your father was distant than God will feel distant. If you hated your father, you will most likely have hatred for God. This is the case with Madalyn Murray O'Hair and many other Atheists. from the Institute For Biblical and Scientific Studies
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

3rd February 2003, 11:31 AM	#3
Guest Posts: n/a	The premise is absurd on the face of it, because it leaves out the entire body of atheists who reached that decision intellectually as an adult. My dad was a great guy, and none of my glaring faults are his fault.
Guest Posts: n/a

3rd February 2003, 11:45 AM	#4
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,873	I did not have a post fertilization dad in my life, but this reasoning is absurd! How come this idiot did not address God's apparent lack of concern for fatherless Atheists? Doesn't look like he made any extra effort to reveal himself to those in need of some extra care..
	__________________ " Somewhere between Jesus dying on the cross, and a giant bunny hiding eggs,there seems to be a gap in information. " Stan - Southpark Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

3rd February 2003, 11:48 AM	#5
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	Interesting reasoning. I note that Jesus' "dad" was missing, and his "step" father could never live up to the "real" father's image. Amazing Ol' J-man didn't become an atheist.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

3rd February 2003, 11:26 AM	#2
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	My father was none of the above. He was a terrific guy. But technically, he died my last year of high school and I didn't convert to atheism until a couple of years at college. And my conversion was intellectual, not emotional, so I don't see how it would be relevant.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

3rd February 2003, 12:18 PM	#6
Stimpson J. Cat Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,833	headscratcher, Quote: Interesting reasoning. I note that Jesus' "dad" was missing, and his "step" father could never live up to the "real" father's image. Amazing Ol' J-man didn't become an atheist. Maybe he did. After all, theists are constantly claiming that atheists believe that they are God. Dr. Stupid
	__________________ A poke in the eye makes Baby Jesus cry.

3rd February 2003, 02:23 PM	#7
Fade Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,055	Ridiculous.
Fade Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,055

3rd February 2003, 02:54 PM	#8
Dub Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 247	Is it me or do all the arguments for the existence of God run "A is ____, B is _____; therefore, God must exist" Fill in the blanks with whatever takes your fancy. On a side note. The 'Institute' was recently given a 14.9 arce park. They nicknamed the park 'Triassic Park'. Quite ironic that some christian believe that the Earth isnt even as old as the triassic period.
Dub Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 247	__________________ "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened." Sir Winston Churchill "Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." Richard Dawkins "Our ignorance is God; what we know is science." Robert Ingersoll "The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry." Richard Dawkins "Paranormal phenomena have a habit of going away whenever they are tested under rigorous conditions. This is why the $1 million reward of James Randi is safe." Richard Dawkins

3rd February 2003, 03:03 PM	#9
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	I suppose that makes me a statistical anomaly. Why don't they do a survey relating intelligence quotient to atheism? They might find more consistent results.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

3rd February 2003, 03:38 PM	#10
Cecil Muse Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Vancouver Posts: 991	Quote: Originally posted by c4ts I suppose that makes me a statistical anomaly. Why don't they do a survey relating intelligence quotient to atheism? They might find more consistent results. Oh, but they have. Many times. http://www.objectivethought.com/atheism/iqstats.html

3rd February 2003, 04:29 PM	#11
Mr. Skinny Alien Cryogenic Engineer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 8,192	My father wasn't missing, nor was he weak or abusive. I got along with him very well. Unfortunately he died about five years ago. I think it was that stuff they tried to teach me in Catholic grade school about the communion host and wine becoming the actual body and blood of christ that got me started on the road to skeptical thinking. Cecil, that was an interesting link. Thanks for providing it.
	__________________ U.S.L.S 1969-1975 "thanks skinny. And bite me. :-) - The Bad Astronomer, 11/15/02 on Paltalk "He's harmless in a rather dorky way." - Katana "Deities do not organize, they command." - Hokulele

4th February 2003, 06:40 AM	#12
Hypocolius Muse Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 538	My dad was a fantastic guy, and I loved him to bits. In addition he was the only even slightly religious member of my family, my mother is, and always was an atheist. She and Dad (a la carte Catholic) agreed to let me and my brother make up our own minds about theism (neither of us ended up believing in god at all). This "study" is an attempt to liken atheism to a psychological illness, and is an insult to free-thinking people, and their fathers.
Hypocolius Muse Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 538

4th February 2003, 07:22 AM	#13
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: This "study" is an attempt to liken atheism to a psychological illness, and is an insult to free-thinking people, and their fathers. A-Theists are also far far less likely to make dontaions to charity then a Theist. I guess -- so much for empirical evidence??? "Empirical evidence" is only useful when it proves your point, but as soon as it starts to work against your religion, then it is time to fall back on good'ol reliable Dogma. A-Theism is a psychological illness ... deal with it.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

4th February 2003, 07:46 AM	#14
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,071	Quote: Originally posted by Franko A-Theists are also far far less likely to make dontaions to charity then a Theist. Well, I can agree that I don't give a lot of money to churches. How do they compare in terms of giving to non-religious charities? While my (religious) parents give more money to charity overall than I do, all of it goes to the church, while mine goes to public education.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

4th February 2003, 07:54 AM	#15
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: Well, I can agree that I don't give a lot of money to churches. Charities <> *Churches* Quote: How do they compare in terms of giving to non-religious charities? Theists tend to donate at least 3 times more (per individual) then A-Theists. Quote: While my (religious) parents give more money to charity overall than I do, all of it goes to the church, while mine goes to public education. Your “donations” go to public education? Yeah … I pay property taxes too. Look, it’s not as if there is an omniscient “god” watching and keeping an account of your “good deeds”. You have “free will”, so you don’t really need to worry about consequences for your actions like a Theist does.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

4th February 2003, 10:31 AM	#16
hard_head New Blood Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 7	My dad still is a great guy. We go fishing every chance we get. Despite the fact that he dropped out of school at an early age (around 6th grade) to go to work during the depression he has always been fascinated by science. I can remember watching Cosmos with he and my mom. He used to have me tape shows off the Discovery Channel for him, and space and the space missions fascinate him no end. So pfffftt to the arse who thinks we all had abusive absent fathers, mine has been a great guy for my first 46 years of life, I hope he is around for my next 46.
hard_head New Blood Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 7	__________________ Only Sheep Need a Shepherd

4th February 2003, 10:40 AM	#17
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	So how’s the weather in B’more today? Quote: So pfffftt to the arse who thinks we all had abusive absent fathers, mine has been a great guy for my first 46 years of life, I hope he is around for my next 46. Other than pessimism, what is your evidence that you will cease to exist when you die? Let me ask you this, when your character gets killed in the computer game QUAKE, are you also dead? Why is it that the best option you have been able to conceive of for your ultimate Fate is “ceasing to exist”? To me that sounds like a psychological problem? Is you Dad an A-Theist (pessimist/cynic)? Maybe you inherited it from him?
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

4th February 2003, 10:47 AM	#18
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,071	Quote: Originally posted by Franko **Charities <> *Churches*** While not all charities are churches, all churches are charities. Quote: Theists tend to donate at least 3 times more (per individual) then A-Theists. Does that include their contributions to churches? Quote: Your “donations” go to public education? Yeah … I pay property taxes too. [/b] Nope, I give money directly to academic programs of the local university every year. I also pay a bunch of property taxes, but that is not what I am talking about. I know you can't stand it when people do things that shake your misguided world view, but that's the way it is.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

4th February 2003, 10:54 AM	#19
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: I know you can't stand it when people do things that shake your misguided world view, but that's the way it is. When you have some evidence that people who don’t believe in Rewards & Punishments (positive ad negative reinforcements) behave as morally as those who do, then I’ll believe your religion is the “One True Faith”. Until then, it’s your misguided worldview that is being shaken – not mine.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

4th February 2003, 10:58 AM	#20
CWL Funkateer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 1,370	Quote: Originally posted by Franko When you have some evidence that people who don’t believe in Rewards & Punishments (positive ad negative reinforcements) behave as morally as those who do, then I’ll believe your religion is the “One True Faith”. Until then, it’s your misguided worldview that is being shaken – not mine. Franko, Who exactly are you claiming doesn't believe in "positive and negative reinforcements"?
	__________________ "All is not true which resembles truth" - Swedish Code for Judges (probably composed around 1540) "The obscurely spoken is the obscurely thought" - Swedish poet Esaias Tegnér (1782 - 1846) "Precisely because of human fallibility, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan

4th February 2003, 11:03 AM	#21
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,071	Quote: Originally posted by Franko *When you have some evidence* that people who don’t believe in Rewards & Punishments (positive ad negative reinforcements)** As CWL notes, this is a strawman. If you get your head out of the hole, you might learn something. Instead of denying that I might do such a thing, why not ask _why_ I would do such a thing?
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

4th February 2003, 11:56 AM	#22
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: CWL: (A-Theist/Lawyer) Who exactly are you claiming doesn't believe in "positive and negative reinforcements"? Jesus Christ CWL after months and months of debating this point you are suddenly gonna pretend that you haven’t been claiming what you have obviously been claiming? You had better be careful with me Hellspawn, or I am going to trick you into admitting that you never actually had any “free will”. Quote: pgwenthold: As CWL notes, this is a strawman. CWL is a strawman. Quote: If you get your head out of the hole, you might learn something. Instead of denying that I might do such a thing, why not ask _why_ I would do such a thing? It’s simple pgwenthold, do you ever walk around your house in your underwear? Ever go out in public like that? By the same token I believe that my Goddess is ALWAYS watching me, ALWAYS keeping a tally of my good deeds and misdeeds. I behave accordingly. You on the other hand don’t think that anyone is watching, and you are parading around in your underwear like a fool.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

4th February 2003, 12:07 PM	#23
Yahzi Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 2,672	My dad was gone for most of my life (divorce and Vietnam). But he came back when I was an adult and tried to convert me to fundiesm. Ironically, he was given up for adoption as a child. But he was adopted by fundies, so I guess that evens out.

4th February 2003, 12:07 PM	#24
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,071	Quote: Originally posted by Franko It’s simple pgwenthold, do you ever walk around your house in your underwear? Ever go out in public like that? By the same token I believe that my Goddess is ALWAYS watching me, ALWAYS keeping a tally of my good deeds and misdeeds. I behave accordingly. You on the other hand don’t think that anyone is watching, and you are parading around in your underwear like a fool. I gotta admit, I haven't a friggin clue about what you are talkig about. As far as I can tell, you get some sort of thrill out of parading around in front of your goddess in your underwear. Do you have some other point?
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

4th February 2003, 12:07 PM	#25
CWL Funkateer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 1,370	Quote: Originally posted by Franko Jesus Christ CWL after months and months of debating this point you are suddenly gonna pretend that you haven’t been claiming what you have obviously been claiming? You had better be careful with me Hellspawn, or I am going to trick you into admitting that you never actually had any “free will”. What's up with this "Jesus Christ" business, Franko? Have you reverted to your old beliefs? What does your Goddess think of you having other gods beside herself? And what do you think Christ would think of you Goddess? All jokes aside. You can demonstrate that you are not a liar by linking to any specific statement of mine that shows that I now "pretend that I haven’t been claiming what I have obviously been claiming". Of course you won't. Because you can't. Quote: CWL is a strawman. I can assure you I am neither a strawman nor a figment of your imagination, my solipsistic little friend. Quote: It’s simple pgwenthold, do you ever walk around your house in your underwear? Ever go out in public like that? By the same token I believe that my Goddess is ALWAYS watching me, ALWAYS keeping a tally of my good deeds and misdeeds. I behave accordingly. You on the other hand don’t think that anyone is watching, and you are parading around in your underwear like a fool. "Always watching you" eh? Scary stuff.
	__________________ "All is not true which resembles truth" - Swedish Code for Judges (probably composed around 1540) "The obscurely spoken is the obscurely thought" - Swedish poet Esaias Tegnér (1782 - 1846) "Precisely because of human fallibility, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan

4th February 2003, 12:09 PM	#26
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: I gotta admit, I haven't a friggin clue about what you are talkig about. As far as I can tell, you get some sort of thrill out of parading around in front of your goddess in your underwear. Do you have some other point? yeah, my point is that when you don't think your being watched you behave differently. But I don't expect YOU or any other A-Theist to concede this obvious fact ... and that is my real point.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

4th February 2003, 12:16 PM	#27
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,071	Quote: Originally posted by Franko *yeah, my point is that when you don't think your being watched you behave differently. But I don't expect YOU or any other A-Theist to concede this obvious fact ... and that* is my real point.** Why does your goddess care whether you walk around in your underwear when you are at home?
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

4th February 2003, 12:17 PM	#28
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: Why does your goddess care whether you walk around in your underwear when you are at home? She doesn't. She thinks I look "studly" in my underwear.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

4th February 2003, 12:20 PM	#29
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,071	Quote: Originally posted by Franko She doesn't. She thinks I look "studly" in my underwear. OK, so apparently you have the shades closed and are not disturbing _anyone_, not even indirectly. So tell me why it's wrong?
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

4th February 2003, 12:28 PM	#30
Wile E. Coyote Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 342	The Roman Catholic church is the biggest charity in the world, and what do they do with their money? They build ornate cathedrals, shower the upper clergy with riches, and generally waste it on non-charitable activities. Perhaps atheists are just smart enough to give money to where it will be used towards a known, specific purpose. I would bet a lot of theists give money to charity to buy their way into heaven. It is probably better for those in need of charity if you buy some product, stimulate the economy, and give some poor unfortunate a job. Churches employ a very small percentage of the population, after all. Of course, this is all baseless speculation.

4th February 2003, 12:37 PM	#31
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	It seems clear that the source of Mr. Vitz's data was not the JREF board.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

4th February 2003, 01:04 PM	#32
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: It seems clear that the source of Mr. Vitz's data was not the JREF board. What makes you assume that all of the A-Theists here are answering honestly? It is fairly obvious that the majority of A-Theists in this thread don't want this to be True. Are you saying that will not manifest itself in any way in the poll results? Are you really that naive, or do you actually have a non-dogmatic line of reasoning for your Faith?
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

4th February 2003, 01:25 PM	#33
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	What I find strange is that the argument actually strengthens the atheistic point of view. It's the same with the section they have on "the God-part of the Brain", where they say that "Michael Persinger stimulates the temporal lobes with a magnetic field to produce spiritual experiences. He can seemingly change an atheist into a theist" If either argument had been true, it would not have been evidence for God. It would be a mundane, materialistic explanation for why some people believe in God. (Especially when they add that these experiences can be triggered by stressful events, oxygen deprivation and sleeplessness etc.) Was that their intent?
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

4th February 2003, 01:28 PM	#34
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: What I find strange is that the argument actually strengthens the atheistic point of view. It's the same with the section they have on "the God-part of the Brain", where they say that "Michael Persinger stimulates the temporal lobes with a magnetic field to produce spiritual experiences. He can seemingly change an atheist into a theist" If either argument had been true, it would not have been evidence for God. It would be a mundane, materialistic explanation for why some people believe in God. (Especially when they add that these experiences can be triggered by stressful events, oxygen deprivation and sleeplessness etc.) Was that their intent? Ohhh, it's all Fated by the Laws of Physics Goodpropoganda (whether you are a Theist or A-Theist). What else could it be? Surely you weren't suggesting its magic???
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338