Bleeding statue in Sacramento CA

Lisa Simpson · 22nd November 2005, 05:05 PM

I just saw this on my local news:

http://cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_326014939.html

I would love to see this truly investigated. I wonder if Joe Nickell is available?

JLam · 22nd November 2005, 05:11 PM

This most likely won't be truly investigated. Too easy to explain as a natural phenomenon, and therefore a threat to the folks who believe it's "a sign".

I'd like to see some analysis done, though. I'm sure it's something mundane.

l0rca · 22nd November 2005, 05:13 PM

I'm faithful that it's a load of crap.

phildonnia · 23rd November 2005, 09:09 AM

This church is on my way home from work. I thought I'd stop and take a look at it. Any suggestions on what to look for? The statue looks too high to swab a sample without making a fuss.

c4ts · 23rd November 2005, 09:14 AM

The statue could be leaking moldy water through cracks. It doesn't look like blood so much as dark brown or black water.

Lisa Simpson · 23rd November 2005, 09:24 AM

On the telly it looked more reddish-brown. I saw someone going up and hugging it. It may be possible to get close enough to take a discreet swab.

CFLarsen · 23rd November 2005, 09:29 AM

Now, if the statue was menstruating, it would be news....

lwsichsldt · 23rd November 2005, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by c4ts

The statue could be leaking moldy water through cracks. It doesn't look like blood so much as dark brown or black water.

I agree since the statue is outside and it does rain in california.

hgc · 23rd November 2005, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

Now, if the statue was menstruating, it would be news....

Of even more interest would be evidence of a miscarraige. Now that would be news.

Lisa Simpson · 23rd November 2005, 11:51 AM

Mildly related--Jeebus appears on a tailgate.

c4ts · 23rd November 2005, 11:53 AM

That looks more like some guy with an afro than Jesus.

Unless...

HeyLeroy · 23rd November 2005, 11:55 AM

My money's on Ragu. Jesus was a Pastafarian.

HeyLeroy · 23rd November 2005, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

Mildly related--Jeebus appears on a tailgate.

(from link):

Quote:

Radillo said he thinks the image of Christ appeared as reminder to people to strengthen their faith.

Or not to use holy water to wash their trucks.

CFLarsen · 23rd November 2005, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by hgc

Of even more interest would be evidence of a miscarraige. Now that would be news.

It's David Miscavige.

phildonnia · 23rd November 2005, 05:55 PM

Stopped by to have a look. I was not impressed. But I couldn't get too close, and of course any speculations will be colored by my own predjudice. For all I know, the statue might actually be weeping tears of holy maple syrup from the last breakfast.

What it resembled more than anything was the way a drip of water will turn to a muddy stream on a dirty white object. I might get similar results from shooting up my car with a squirt gun. The last few nights in sacramento have been quite cold, enough that dew and frost have formed on exposed objects. The church is in a fairly rural area, surrounded by fields and dust from new housing developments. I thought the reddish-brown color of the "tears" to be similar but much darker than the soil in the surrounding area. Also, the statue has some kind of paint on the eye area, which could be the source of the pigmentation.

Aside from the color, the "tears" appeared to be more transparent than you'd expect from blood. It was neither a vivid red, nor a dark crimson like flowing blood. It was not black and solid like dried blood. Red wine might be an approximation to the color and appearance.

You can't really get close, as there is a wrought iron fence surrounding the statue. It's on a pedestal about 4 feet high, and the statue itself is maybe 7 feet high. There's some tables set up in front, covered with flowers and candles. There was no press there, although there was a camera on a tripod, in case the statue starts talking, I guess. Betcha it goes to a live web-cam somewhere. The parking lot has cones, as if in anticipation of heavy traffic; I had no problem parking about 200 feet from the statue. There were about forty folding chairs facing the statue, but maybe only two or three were in use. Most of the people were standing around or talking softly. While I suspect that most or all of the congregation is Vietnamese, these comprised maybe half of the small crowd gathered.

RandFan · 23rd November 2005, 08:14 PM

Oh please. I'm actually a defender of the faithful from time to time but sweet Jesus on a bagel. Come on folks.

One of the faithful said something to the effect of, "it doesn't really matter if it is true or not, it only matters if it turns the faithful to god"... huh?

Mephisto · 24th November 2005, 07:59 AM

I always get a big kick out of these sightings. I can't believe the people that flock to these things in order to get close to something holy, show God their support just in case he's looking or whatever reasons they cite. I just know the majority of them aren't there as skeptics.

I thought the Virgin Mary underneath the highway overpass was pretty cool too. Bill Mahr said that while a news crew was filming the holy event a homeless man came down from underneath the overpass and offered to "piss the whole Last Supper for them" if they bought him a six pack.

I'm thinking of installing a fountain pump into a statue to recirculate the bloody tears and putting it in my front yard. I can probably make a ton of money through "donations" for the Port-A-Pot use and the concession stand for the faithful. I can already see the menu; Blessed Burritos, Chile-con-Crucifix, Trinity Taco Platter, Benidict Burger, etc.

My state actually has the dubious honor of being among the first locations to prove God's affinity to Tex-Mex foods. Here's a link to the most famous example: http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attra...Ktortilla.html

The next link is a somewhat humorous take on WHY things like these often sell for thousands of dollars. http://www.howestreet.com/story.php?ArticleId=923

I wonder if anyone keeps track of just how many "unique" pieces of non-confirmable crap is being sold by people who know how to work the fundie crowd? Maybe there is a market niche for my idea of the Jesus Griddle?

. . . put Jesus on a tortilla, put him on a pancake, make Jesus au Jus, have Mom make you a cheese sandwich that will make you the envy of everyone at the Planned Parenthood protest . . .

c4ts · 24th November 2005, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

One of the faithful said something to the effect of, "it doesn't really matter if it is true or not, it only matters if it turns the faithful to god"... huh?

In other words the ends justify the means.

RandFan · 24th November 2005, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by c4ts

In other words the ends justify the means.

? Not you too? Dumb cliché. And yes, the ends do often justify the means. {sigh} If they didn't I wouldn't go to work. Would you?

The ends don't ALWAYS justify the means. The ends rarely justify deception. Unless one is in a war and one is trying to fool ones enemy. Then the ends would justify deception. "In war, the truth must be guarded by a body guard of lies." --Churchill

Or if a young child runs into your house and hides in the closet and a man runs in moments later with a gun looking for a young child. Then the ends (protecting the child) would justify the means (deception).

Here's a bit of advice. Avoid catch phrases when forumlating your philosophy.

"Get your philosophy from a bumper sticker" --Green Day.

Lisa Simpson · 25th November 2005, 05:44 AM

More para--whatever. I can never remember how to spell that word. This time, the Virgin Mary shows up in a tree trunk in Dallas, TX.

http://www.nbc17.com/news/5375322/detail.html#

Mephisto · 25th November 2005, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

More para--whatever. I can never remember how to spell that word. This time, the Virgin Mary shows up in a tree trunk in Dallas, TX.

http://www.nbc17.com/news/5375322/detail.html#

I wonder how close to the nearest high school keg-party spot this tree is?

God works in mysterious ways - he must if his mother keeps popping up in the piss of drunks!

c4ts · 25th November 2005, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

? Not you too? Dumb cliché. And yes, the ends do often justify the means. {sigh} If they didn't I wouldn't go to work. Would you?

The ends don't ALWAYS justify the means. The ends rarely justify deception. Unless one is in a war and one is trying to fool ones enemy. Then the ends would justify deception. "In war, the truth must be guarded by a body guard of lies." --Churchill

Or if a young child runs into your house and hides in the closet and a man runs in moments later with a gun looking for a young child. Then the ends (protecting the child) would justify the means (deception).

Here's a bit of advice. Avoid catch phrases when forumlating your philosophy.

"Get your philosophy from a bumper sticker" --Green Day.

Uh... I was referring to hypocrisy. If that's why you do your job, that's really your problem.

Kopji · 25th November 2005, 06:00 PM

I find it enlightening to follow the trail on why some things become news. This particular article's byline is Marcy Valenzuela. She has a history of being a tool.

How sad this is an 'award winning' reporter, and is one more indication of the dismal state of reporting journalism in the US. Can anything at all be believed if this is the cream of the crop?

If the media would like me to stop thinking of them as buffoons suitable for a carnival sideshow they could start by asking skeptical questions and demanding evidence. But then, maybe their market share would decrease.

Marcy Valenzuela, a 1989 New Mexico State graduate and anchor for KVOR-TV in Sacramento, Calif
Bio: http://cbs13.com/bios/local_bio_255212129.html
e-mail: mvalenzuela@kovr.com

Quote:

http://skepdic.com/refuge/bunk9.html

July 22, 1999. KOVR, a CBS affiliate in Sacramento, California, featured reporter Marcy Valuenzuela going gaga over Russell Targ (famed pseudoscientist whose specialty is remote viewing) and Marilyn Schlitz of the Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS),

In her report, Ms. Valuenzuela offered not one shred of skepticism to balance Targ's and Schlitz's claims that there is very strong scientific evidence for ESP, psychokinesis, remote viewing, etc. The lowlight of the show was when Targ invited her try remote viewing. She imaged and drew what looks like a hill with a line under it. Targ pulled out a little spoked wheel and she declared "That's amazing." Yes, it is amazing that she didn't see that her picture and Targ's object were not even remotely alike. Yet, she was able to fit the data into the hypothesis quite easily. How come? A good reporter might have launched into a discussion of confirmation bias or pareidolia.

RandFan · 25th November 2005, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by c4ts

Uh... I was referring to hypocrisy. If that's why you do your job, that's really your problem.

Uh... not a clue what you are getting at.

The ends often justify the means. I don't know why you work but I'm sure you don't just wander into your job without purpose, right? There must be some "ends" that gives reason for the means, right? It could be money. It could be satisfaction. It could be lot's of things but regardless of the reason (ends) that reason or reasons justifies going to work.

If I misunderstood you then I apologize.

As to "hypocrisy", I don't get your point. Sorry.

The quote I gave claims that deception is justified to turn people to God who is ostensibly the God of truth and Satan is the father of all lies.

Using a lie to turn people to God is logically inconsistent.

c4ts · 25th November 2005, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Using a lie to turn people to God is logically inconsistent.

Machiavelli suggests things like violating your own principality's edicts in order to maintain power, which is what he refers to when he says "the ends justify the means." It is basically what the Christians are doing. They are lying, which is bad, in order to do good, which they see as turning them to God. Never mind that they believe God has rules against bearing false witness and such, it's all right when it gets results. And, as long as you take such advice, it's also okay to preach faith and peace while being very hostile, if it keeps the Chruch in power.

RandFan · 25th November 2005, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by c4ts

Machiavelli suggests things like violating your own principality's edicts in order to maintain power, which is what he refers to when he says "the ends justify the means." It is basically what the Christians are doing. They are lying, which is bad, in order to do good, which they see as turning them to God. Never mind that they believe God has rules against bearing false witness and such, it's all right when it gets results. And, as long as you take such advice, it's also okay to preach faith and peace while being very hostile, if it keeps the Chruch in power.

No argument. My problem is simply with the fact that the phrase has entered popular culture and many do not have a clue the point of the phrase and they shudder when anyone suggests that the ends might in many instances justify the means and then they spout the catch-phrase oblivous to the fact that any behavior can be said to be justified by it purpose.

You clearly get it and I withdraw my original objection.

DarkMagician · 27th November 2005, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

Mildly related--Jeebus appears on a tailgate.

It looks more like Hendrix.

David Swidler · 28th November 2005, 12:13 AM

Well, their lives have some eerie parallels, don't they?

Zep · 28th November 2005, 12:43 AM

I don't recall being told Christ choked to death on a ham sandwich. Or on his own vomit. Or from a drug overdose. Nor that he played a mean axe that was strung upside-down, and pulled all the babes.

But other than that, they're remarkably similar!

c4ts · 28th November 2005, 06:45 AM

Penn said Elvis was a much better comparison.

RandFan · 28th November 2005, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by c4ts

Penn said Elvis was a much better comparison.

To Christ or Hendrix?

cbish · 28th November 2005, 11:44 AM

Well, it's raining in Sac today. It'll be interesting to see if all the dust gets washed off. It'll be more interesting to see if this will even make the news.

l0rca · 29th November 2005, 06:51 AM

Oh Jeez. Channel 10 new, NBC, had an 11:00 news item on this. They reported that the statue "appeared to be crying blood," and that this "could be a sign of bad things to come".

NBC. I hate NBC.

cbish · 29th November 2005, 08:24 AM

Well, it's been raining for the past twenty-four hours and is suppose to continue throughout the week.

I wonder if we could convince Phildonnia to stop by again and see how it looks?

Anti_Hypeman · 29th November 2005, 09:20 AM

Geraldo did a piece on it yesterday. He said most of these are fake but some of them are real including the shroud of turin.

c4ts · 29th November 2005, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by Anti_Hypeman

Geraldo did a piece on it yesterday. He said most of these are fake but some of them are real including the shroud of turin.

Lordy, lordy, lordy...

phildonnia · 29th November 2005, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by cbish

Well, it's been raining for the past twenty-four hours and is suppose to continue throughout the week.

I wonder if we could convince Phildonnia to stop by again and see how it looks?

The Bee is already reporting that the "tears" have withstood the rain. Guess that argues for the "motor oil" theory. It's been very windy in addition to the rain, so I would think that all sides would get a good cleansing. The dried bird-crap has been removed from my car, for example.

http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/r...14754894c.html

uruk · 29th November 2005, 01:44 PM

I have a bleeding hemmoroid that looks like Jesus giving a high five to George Bush. Does that count as a miracle? Anyone want to see the pictures? Or join the adoring masses camped out by my butt? .......anyone?

cbish · 29th November 2005, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by phildonnia

The Bee is already reporting that the "tears" have withstood the rain. Guess that argues for the "motor oil" theory. It's been very windy in addition to the rain, so I would think that all sides would get a good cleansing. The dried bird-crap has been removed from my car, for example.

http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/r...14754894c.html

The link requires a registration. I'll go downstairs in a few minutes and find a Bee.

So, that eliminates the dirt/condensation angle. The motor oil theory suggests a hoax. I was looking for a more 'innocent' explanation. I'm still curious as to how it actually looks now. When did the Bee go out and check; yesterday morning at 7:00 AM?

22nd November 2005, 05:05 PM	#1
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,054	Bleeding statue in Sacramento CA I just saw this on my local news: http://cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_326014939.html I would love to see this truly investigated. I wonder if Joe Nickell is available?
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

22nd November 2005, 05:11 PM	#2
JLam Proud Skepkid Parent Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Low and away Posts: 4,165	This most likely won't be truly investigated. Too easy to explain as a natural phenomenon, and therefore a threat to the folks who believe it's "a sign". I'd like to see some analysis done, though. I'm sure it's something mundane.
	__________________ Help take down Sylvia Browne. "what's dicksing? my dicksionary have no word for that" - Pillory

23rd November 2005, 09:14 AM	#5
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	The statue could be leaking moldy water through cracks. It doesn't look like blood so much as dark brown or black water.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit. Last edited by c4ts; 23rd November 2005 at 09:17 AM.

23rd November 2005, 09:24 AM	#6
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,054	On the telly it looked more reddish-brown. I saw someone going up and hugging it. It may be possible to get close enough to take a discreet swab.
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

23rd November 2005, 09:29 AM	#7
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Now, if the statue was menstruating, it would be news....
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

22nd November 2005, 05:13 PM	#3
l0rca I know so much karate Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,100	I'm faithful that it's a load of crap.

23rd November 2005, 09:09 AM	#4
phildonnia Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Sac'to CA Posts: 2,339	This church is on my way home from work. I thought I'd stop and take a look at it. Any suggestions on what to look for? The statue looks too high to swab a sample without making a fuss.

23rd November 2005, 11:30 AM	#8
lwsichsldt New Blood Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 11	Originally Posted by c4ts The statue could be leaking moldy water through cracks. It doesn't look like blood so much as dark brown or black water. I agree since the statue is outside and it does rain in california.
lwsichsldt New Blood Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 11

23rd November 2005, 11:49 AM	#9
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,002	Originally Posted by CFLarsen Now, if the statue was menstruating, it would be news.... Of even more interest would be evidence of a miscarraige. Now that would be news.
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert

23rd November 2005, 11:51 AM	#10
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,054	Mildly related--Jeebus appears on a tailgate.
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

23rd November 2005, 11:53 AM	#11
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	That looks more like some guy with an afro than Jesus. Unless...
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

23rd November 2005, 11:55 AM	#12
HeyLeroy Vegan Cannibal Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Going off the rails on the Crazy Train. Posts: 5,565	My money's on Ragu. Jesus was a Pastafarian.
	__________________ Cows are in large numbers, and do not serve any other purpose, other than to eat grass, and moo -- makaya325 I ♥ my kids. I ♠ my dog. I ♣ my baby Harp Seal.

23rd November 2005, 11:58 AM	#13
HeyLeroy Vegan Cannibal Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Going off the rails on the Crazy Train. Posts: 5,565	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson Mildly related--Jeebus appears on a tailgate. (from link): Quote: Radillo said he thinks the image of Christ appeared as reminder to people to strengthen their faith. Or not to use holy water to wash their trucks.
	__________________ Cows are in large numbers, and do not serve any other purpose, other than to eat grass, and moo -- makaya325 I ♥ my kids. I ♠ my dog. I ♣ my baby Harp Seal.

23rd November 2005, 12:22 PM	#14
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Originally Posted by hgc Of even more interest would be evidence of a miscarraige. Now that would be news. It's David Miscavige.
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

23rd November 2005, 05:55 PM	#15
phildonnia Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Sac'to CA Posts: 2,339	Stopped by to have a look. I was not impressed. But I couldn't get too close, and of course any speculations will be colored by my own predjudice. For all I know, the statue might actually be weeping tears of holy maple syrup from the last breakfast. What it resembled more than anything was the way a drip of water will turn to a muddy stream on a dirty white object. I might get similar results from shooting up my car with a squirt gun. The last few nights in sacramento have been quite cold, enough that dew and frost have formed on exposed objects. The church is in a fairly rural area, surrounded by fields and dust from new housing developments. I thought the reddish-brown color of the "tears" to be similar but much darker than the soil in the surrounding area. Also, the statue has some kind of paint on the eye area, which could be the source of the pigmentation. Aside from the color, the "tears" appeared to be more transparent than you'd expect from blood. It was neither a vivid red, nor a dark crimson like flowing blood. It was not black and solid like dried blood. Red wine might be an approximation to the color and appearance. You can't really get close, as there is a wrought iron fence surrounding the statue. It's on a pedestal about 4 feet high, and the statue itself is maybe 7 feet high. There's some tables set up in front, covered with flowers and candles. There was no press there, although there was a camera on a tripod, in case the statue starts talking, I guess. Betcha it goes to a live web-cam somewhere. The parking lot has cones, as if in anticipation of heavy traffic; I had no problem parking about 200 feet from the statue. There were about forty folding chairs facing the statue, but maybe only two or three were in use. Most of the people were standing around or talking softly. While I suspect that most or all of the congregation is Vietnamese, these comprised maybe half of the small crowd gathered.

23rd November 2005, 08:14 PM	#16
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,156	Oh please. I'm actually a defender of the faithful from time to time but sweet Jesus on a bagel. Come on folks. One of the faithful said something to the effect of, "it doesn't really matter if it is true or not, it only matters if it turns the faithful to god"... huh?
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

24th November 2005, 07:59 AM	#17
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Holy $hit! I always get a big kick out of these sightings. I can't believe the people that flock to these things in order to get close to something holy, show God their support just in case he's looking or whatever reasons they cite. I just know the majority of them aren't there as skeptics. I thought the Virgin Mary underneath the highway overpass was pretty cool too. Bill Mahr said that while a news crew was filming the holy event a homeless man came down from underneath the overpass and offered to "piss the whole Last Supper for them" if they bought him a six pack. I'm thinking of installing a fountain pump into a statue to recirculate the bloody tears and putting it in my front yard. I can probably make a ton of money through "donations" for the Port-A-Pot use and the concession stand for the faithful. I can already see the menu; Blessed Burritos, Chile-con-Crucifix, Trinity Taco Platter, Benidict Burger, etc. My state actually has the dubious honor of being among the first locations to prove God's affinity to Tex-Mex foods. Here's a link to the most famous example: http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attra...Ktortilla.html The next link is a somewhat humorous take on WHY things like these often sell for thousands of dollars. http://www.howestreet.com/story.php?ArticleId=923 I wonder if anyone keeps track of just how many "unique" pieces of non-confirmable crap is being sold by people who know how to work the fundie crowd? Maybe there is a market niche for my idea of the Jesus Griddle? . . . put Jesus on a tortilla, put him on a pancake, make Jesus au Jus, have Mom make you a cheese sandwich that will make you the envy of everyone at the Planned Parenthood protest . . .
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

24th November 2005, 11:02 AM	#18
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Originally Posted by RandFan One of the faithful said something to the effect of, "it doesn't really matter if it is true or not, it only matters if it turns the faithful to god"... huh? In other words the ends justify the means.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

24th November 2005, 01:58 PM	#19
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,156	Originally Posted by c4ts In other words the ends justify the means. ? Not you too? Dumb cliché. And yes, the ends do often justify the means. {sigh} If they didn't I wouldn't go to work. Would you? The ends don't ALWAYS justify the means. The ends rarely justify deception. Unless one is in a war and one is trying to fool ones enemy. Then the ends would justify deception. "In war, the truth must be guarded by a body guard of lies." --Churchill Or if a young child runs into your house and hides in the closet and a man runs in moments later with a gun looking for a young child. Then the ends (protecting the child) would justify the means (deception). Here's a bit of advice. Avoid catch phrases when forumlating your philosophy. "Get your philosophy from a bumper sticker" --Green Day.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith Last edited by RandFan; 24th November 2005 at 02:04 PM.

25th November 2005, 05:44 AM	#20
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,054	More para--whatever. I can never remember how to spell that word. This time, the Virgin Mary shows up in a tree trunk in Dallas, TX. http://www.nbc17.com/news/5375322/detail.html#
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

25th November 2005, 07:31 AM	#21
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson More para--whatever. I can never remember how to spell that word. This time, the Virgin Mary shows up in a tree trunk in Dallas, TX. http://www.nbc17.com/news/5375322/detail.html# I wonder how close to the nearest high school keg-party spot this tree is? God works in mysterious ways - he must if his mother keeps popping up in the piss of drunks!
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

25th November 2005, 04:45 PM	#22
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Originally Posted by RandFan ? Not you too? Dumb cliché. And yes, the ends do often justify the means. {sigh} If they didn't I wouldn't go to work. Would you? The ends don't ALWAYS justify the means. The ends rarely justify deception. Unless one is in a war and one is trying to fool ones enemy. Then the ends would justify deception. "In war, the truth must be guarded by a body guard of lies." --Churchill Or if a young child runs into your house and hides in the closet and a man runs in moments later with a gun looking for a young child. Then the ends (protecting the child) would justify the means (deception). Here's a bit of advice. Avoid catch phrases when forumlating your philosophy. "Get your philosophy from a bumper sticker" --Green Day. Uh... I was referring to hypocrisy. If that's why you do your job, that's really your problem.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

25th November 2005, 06:00 PM	#23
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	I find it enlightening to follow the trail on why some things become news. This particular article's byline is Marcy Valenzuela. She has a history of being a tool. How sad this is an 'award winning' reporter, and is one more indication of the dismal state of reporting journalism in the US. Can anything at all be believed if this is the cream of the crop? If the media would like me to stop thinking of them as buffoons suitable for a carnival sideshow they could start by asking skeptical questions and demanding evidence. But then, maybe their market share would decrease. Marcy Valenzuela, a 1989 New Mexico State graduate and anchor for KVOR-TV in Sacramento, Calif Bio: http://cbs13.com/bios/local_bio_255212129.html e-mail: mvalenzuela@kovr.com Quote: http://skepdic.com/refuge/bunk9.html July 22, 1999. KOVR, a CBS affiliate in Sacramento, California, featured reporter Marcy Valuenzuela going gaga over Russell Targ (famed pseudoscientist whose specialty is remote viewing) and Marilyn Schlitz of the Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS), In her report, Ms. Valuenzuela offered not one shred of skepticism to balance Targ's and Schlitz's claims that there is very strong scientific evidence for ESP, psychokinesis, remote viewing, etc. The lowlight of the show was when Targ invited her try remote viewing. She imaged and drew what looks like a hill with a line under it. Targ pulled out a little spoked wheel and she declared "That's amazing." Yes, it is amazing that she didn't see that her picture and Targ's object were not even remotely alike. Yet, she was able to fit the data into the hypothesis quite easily. How come? A good reporter might have launched into a discussion of confirmation bias or pareidolia.

25th November 2005, 06:54 PM	#24
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,156	Originally Posted by c4ts Uh... I was referring to hypocrisy. If that's why you do your job, that's really your problem. Uh... not a clue what you are getting at. The ends often justify the means. I don't know why you work but I'm sure you don't just wander into your job without purpose, right? There must be some "ends" that gives reason for the means, right? It could be money. It could be satisfaction. It could be lot's of things but regardless of the reason (ends) that reason or reasons justifies going to work. If I misunderstood you then I apologize. As to "hypocrisy", I don't get your point. Sorry. The quote I gave claims that deception is justified to turn people to God who is ostensibly the God of truth and Satan is the father of all lies. Using a lie to turn people to God is logically inconsistent.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

25th November 2005, 07:45 PM	#25
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Originally Posted by RandFan Using a lie to turn people to God is logically inconsistent. Machiavelli suggests things like violating your own principality's edicts in order to maintain power, which is what he refers to when he says "the ends justify the means." It is basically what the Christians are doing. They are lying, which is bad, in order to do good, which they see as turning them to God. Never mind that they believe God has rules against bearing false witness and such, it's all right when it gets results. And, as long as you take such advice, it's also okay to preach faith and peace while being very hostile, if it keeps the Chruch in power.
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25th November 2005, 08:35 PM	#26
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,156	Originally Posted by c4ts Machiavelli suggests things like violating your own principality's edicts in order to maintain power, which is what he refers to when he says "the ends justify the means." It is basically what the Christians are doing. They are lying, which is bad, in order to do good, which they see as turning them to God. Never mind that they believe God has rules against bearing false witness and such, it's all right when it gets results. And, as long as you take such advice, it's also okay to preach faith and peace while being very hostile, if it keeps the Chruch in power. No argument. My problem is simply with the fact that the phrase has entered popular culture and many do not have a clue the point of the phrase and they shudder when anyone suggests that the ends might in many instances justify the means and then they spout the catch-phrase oblivous to the fact that any behavior can be said to be justified by it purpose. You clearly get it and I withdraw my original objection.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith Last edited by RandFan; 25th November 2005 at 08:37 PM.

27th November 2005, 11:53 PM	#27
DarkMagician Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Des Moines, IA Posts: 1,539	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson Mildly related--Jeebus appears on a tailgate. It looks more like Hendrix.
	__________________ Sometimes going by "Nyke" \| "Pascal's Wager: Believe in Unicorns, or one might kick you in the nads!" \| "There is no hope for humanity. Reason is dead and we dance on the corpse. Tra la la la la!" --c4ts \| Intelligent Design & Expelled Exposed \| I'm on dial-up. If you want to reply to me, summarize please.

28th November 2005, 12:13 AM	#28
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Well, their lives have some eerie parallels, don't they?

28th November 2005, 12:43 AM	#29
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	I don't recall being told Christ choked to death on a ham sandwich. Or on his own vomit. Or from a drug overdose. Nor that he played a mean axe that was strung upside-down, and pulled all the babes. But other than that, they're remarkably similar!
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

28th November 2005, 06:45 AM	#30
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Penn said Elvis was a much better comparison.
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28th November 2005, 07:24 AM	#31
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,156	Originally Posted by c4ts Penn said Elvis was a much better comparison. To Christ or Hendrix?
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

28th November 2005, 11:44 AM	#32
cbish Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Nevada City, CA Posts: 1,229	Well, it's raining in Sac today. It'll be interesting to see if all the dust gets washed off. It'll be more interesting to see if this will even make the news.
	__________________ You have to live it to believe it! If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for you!

29th November 2005, 06:51 AM	#33
l0rca I know so much karate Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,100	Oh Jeez. Channel 10 new, NBC, had an 11:00 news item on this. They reported that the statue "appeared to be crying blood," and that this "could be a sign of bad things to come". NBC. I hate NBC.

29th November 2005, 08:24 AM	#34
cbish Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Nevada City, CA Posts: 1,229	Well, it's been raining for the past twenty-four hours and is suppose to continue throughout the week. I wonder if we could convince Phildonnia to stop by again and see how it looks?
	__________________ You have to live it to believe it! If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for you!

29th November 2005, 09:20 AM	#35
Anti_Hypeman Death Dealing Doom Machine Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,011	Geraldo did a piece on it yesterday. He said most of these are fake but some of them are real including the shroud of turin.