Irony in the "War On Christmas."

[Achán hiNidráne]

Beseems that some fundies are mad at Bush. Why?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...type=printable

[slingblade]

Quote:

Religious conservatives are miffed because they have been pressuring stores to advertise Christmas sales rather than holiday specials and urging schools to let students out for Christmas vacation rather than for winter break.

Stores I can understand. But what about non-Christian students? If they don't celebrate Christmas, do they have to give up their Christmas break?

This is all so silly.

[Regnad Kcin]

I wanna know when these folk are going to get all hot 'n bothered by the dozens of Christmas songs that have been around for decades...and which aren't Christmas songs:

"Happy Holidays" (Andy Williams)
"Winter Wonderland"
"Sleigh Ride"
"Frosty the Snowman"
"Jingle Bell Rock"
etc., etc.

Fundies. Ain't they somethin'?

[zenith-nadir]

The irony of it all is these fundies want to bash Bush over his White House Christmas card yet Christmas is a fake holiday. The Bible does not mention the date of Jesus's birth.

Quote:

Mathew 2:1

1) Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

So not only is Christmas fake, we don't know the date of Jesus's birth and the often-told legend of the "three wise men" is fake. The bible says "there came wise men from the east" not "there came three wise men from the east".

Even the way Santa Clause looks today was c-r-e-a-t-e-d by artist Haddon Sundblom for Coca-Cola ads in the 30s!

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by zenith-nadir

The irony of it all is these fundies want to bash Bush over his White House Christmas card yet Christmas is a fake holiday. The Bible does not mention the date of Jesus's birth.

Not explicitly, but I think it does implicitly through surrounding events. Weren't they on their way back to their home town because of a Rome-mandated census/tax thing? That would give an approximate time of year, though not a day. IIRC, I think it was some time in the spring, so the date's still wrong, but I do think we have an idea.

[rikzilla]

The real irony is that Christians co-opted pagan traditions and "xtianized" them in the first place. Christ's birthdate is not known...but Mithra (an ancient Persian God) was born on December 25th...thus they xtianized the cult of Mithra. The ancient pagan tradition in Germany was the decorated tree...xtianized...absorbed into the collective. The "yuletide"? Ancient Britanic pagan celebration at the winter solstice...absorbed! It's like xtianity is the religious analog to the Borg!

...and now they bitch because it's being verbally taken back? These people don't even know their own religious history!

-z

[Kerberos]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Not explicitly, but I think it does implicitly through surrounding events. Weren't they on their way back to their home town because of a Rome-mandated census/tax thing? That would give an approximate time of year, though not a day. IIRC, I think it was some time in the spring, so the date's still wrong, but I do think we have an idea.

If memory serves the information is inconsistent. The events happened at different times, or while a different emperor reigned than the one the Bible says did. Something like that.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally Posted by rikzilla

xtianity is the religious analog to the Borg!
-z

It's funny cuz it's true!

[Mark]

Originally Posted by rikzilla

The real irony is that Christians co-opted pagan traditions and "xtianized" them in the first place. Christ's birthdate is not known...but Mithra (an ancient Persian God) was born on December 25th...thus they xtianized the cult of Mithra. The ancient pagan tradition in Germany was the decorated tree...xtianized...absorbed into the collective. The "yuletide"? Ancient Britanic pagan celebration at the winter solstice...absorbed! It's like xtianity is the religious analog to the Borg!

...and now they bitch because it's being verbally taken back? These people don't even know their own religious history!

-z

Even better is the fact that in many of the original colonies, the celebration of Christmas was regarded as a "Popish import" and was highly illegal.

[pgwenthold]

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

I wanna know when these folk are going to get all hot 'n bothered by the dozens of Christmas songs that have been around for decades...and which aren't Christmas songs:

"Happy Holidays" (Andy Williams)
"Winter Wonderland"
"Sleigh Ride"
"Frosty the Snowman"
"Jingle Bell Rock"
etc., etc.

Let me add my favorite:

Deck the Halls

What in the heck do boughs of holly have to do with the birth of Jesus? Nothing, of course, because the song is all about the Yule, i.e. the passing of the year.

In fact, this is a little more clear if you look at the other verses

Deck the halls with boughs of holly
'Tis the season to be jolly
Don we now our gay apparel
Troll the ancient Yule-tide carol

See the blazing Yule before us.
Strike the harp and join the chorus.
Follow me in merry measure.
While I tell of Yule-tide treasure.

Fast away the old year passes.
Hail the new year, lads and lasses
Sing we joyous, all together.
heedless of the wind and weather.

Wikipedia, however, claims that any song about Christmas or "the winter season in general" is a "Christmas Carol."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_carol

However, it does call "Deck the Halls" a "secular Christmas Carol."

So sing Deck the Halls, contribute to the secularization of Christmas!

[Libertarian]

No, no, no, no,..................the REAL irony is that, after years and years of christians bemoaning the fact there was too much commericalism in christmas, they're trying to put christmas into commercialism!

[Tony]

Originally Posted by rikzilla

The real irony is that Christians co-opted pagan traditions and "xtianized" them in the first place. Christ's birthdate is not known...but Mithra (an ancient Persian God) was born on December 25th...thus they xtianized the cult of Mithra. The ancient pagan tradition in Germany was the decorated tree...xtianized...absorbed into the collective. The "yuletide"? Ancient Britanic pagan celebration at the winter solstice...absorbed! It's like xtianity is the religious analog to the Borg!

...and now they bitch because it's being verbally taken back? These people don't even know their own religious history!

-z

I love learning about stuff like this. Can you provide a source so I can read more?

[rikzilla]

Originally Posted by Tony

I love learning about stuff like this. Can you provide a source so I can read more?

Quote:

The birth of Mithra is celebrated at the eve of the winter solstice, called Shab-e Yalda in Persian, as befits a god of light.

Look up Mithra on Wikipedia. My own info on him was gleaned from many JREF debates years ago when I regularly haunted the Religion forum.

Here's another interesting xtian/Mithraic parallel:

Quote:

The largest temple with a Mithraic connection is the Seleucid temple at Kangavar in western Iran (c. 200 BC), which is dedicated to "Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras".

Then there's this:

Quote:

Most of the research into Mithraism, a religion with many parallels to Christianity, comes from two writers, Cumont and Ulansey with a variety of other writers input. Some Similarities Between Mithraism and Christianity are:
Virgin birth
Twelve followers
Killing and resurrection
Miracles
Birthdate on December 25
Morality
Mankind's savior
Known as the Light of the world

From here.

-z

[Ryokan]

Originally Posted by Tony

I love learning about stuff like this. Can you provide a source so I can read more?

Read about yule here. We still call it that in Scandinavia, and we've celebrated the holiday since the stone age. No Christ Mass for us!

[Mephisto]

Originally Posted by rikzilla

Look up Mithra on Wikipedia. My own info on him was gleaned from many JREF debates years ago when I regularly haunted the Religion forum.

Here's another interesting xtian/Mithraic parallel:

Really interesting stuff, Rik. I'm impressed, I'll have to admit I think of you as a permanent fixture in the political forum, but this is too cool. Thanks for the links and the info.

Now I've got some ammo when an X-tian tells me, "we've lost the true meaning behind Christmas."

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by Libertarian

No, no, no, no,..................the REAL irony is that, after years and years of christians bemoaning the fact there was too much commericalism in christmas, they're trying to put christmas into commercialism!

Exactly.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally Posted by zenith-nadir

Even the way Santa Clause looks today was c-r-e-a-t-e-d by artist Haddon Sundblom for Coca-Cola ads in the 30s!

I was wrong.

I did more digging and snopes had something.

Quote:

"The Louis Prang 1886 Christmas card modern Santa Claus derived from these two images: St. Nicholas the elf-like gift bringer described by Moore, and a friendlier "Kriss Kringle" amalgam of the Christkindlein and Pelznickel figures. The man-sized version of Santa became the dominant image around 1841, when a Philadelphia merchant named J.W. Parkinson hired a man to dress in "Criscringle" clothing and climb the chimney outside his shop."

...and sadly, cuz I like the song so much, even good old Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer was a marketing scheme...

Quote:

"Rudolph came to life in 1939 when the Chicago-based Montgomery Ward company (operators of a chain of department stores) asked one of their copywriters, 34-year-old Robert L. May, to come up with a Christmas story they could give away to shoppers as a promotional gimmick."

[Chanileslie]

Originally Posted by zenith-nadir

The irony of it all is these fundies want to bash Bush over his White House Christmas card yet Christmas is a fake holiday. The Bible does not mention the date of Jesus's birth.



So not only is Christmas fake, we don't know the date of Jesus's birth and the often-told legend of the "three wise men" is fake. The bible says "there came wise men from the east" not "there came three wise men from the east".

Even the way Santa Clause looks today was c-r-e-a-t-e-d by artist Haddon Sundblom for Coca-Cola ads in the 30s!

Don't you love marketing? Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer was also a marketing ploy. Whenever I see those "Remember the Reason for the Season" signs, I always think, "Marketing".

[Chanileslie]

Originally Posted by rikzilla

The real irony is that Christians co-opted pagan traditions and "xtianized" them in the first place. Christ's birthdate is not known...but Mithra (an ancient Persian God) was born on December 25th...thus they xtianized the cult of Mithra. The ancient pagan tradition in Germany was the decorated tree...xtianized...absorbed into the collective. The "yuletide"? Ancient Britanic pagan celebration at the winter solstice...absorbed! It's like xtianity is the religious analog to the Borg!

...and now they bitch because it's being verbally taken back? These people don't even know their own religious history!

-z

You forgot Roman's celebration of Satunalia that fell around December 25th that was signified by feasting and orgies. Also, Ancient Babylonia had feastings and orgies on what is now December 25th. Solstice celebrations are as old as human civilization.

[Chanileslie]

Originally Posted by Tony

I love learning about stuff like this. Can you provide a source so I can read more?

http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm

[Tmy]

The fundies forget how Jesus flipped out at the temple cause they turned it to a shopping mall.

Now they want us to honor his b-day via commerece, marketing, and shopping spree?? Hypocritial.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally Posted by Mephisto

Really interesting stuff, Rik. I'm impressed, I'll have to admit I think of you as a permanent fixture in the political forum, but this is too cool. Thanks for the links and the info.

Now I've got some ammo when an X-tian tells me, "we've lost the true meaning behind Christmas."

Well, before you get all excited, try looking here or here.

Quote:

The Christian Scriptor Syrus, writing in the late fourth century CE, tells us:

"It was a custom of the Pagans to celebrate on the same 25 December the birthday of the sun. ... Accordingly, when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnized on that day" (quoted in Hutton, p. 1).

December 25th was the birthday of the sun, then; to be specific, of Sol Invictus, the "Unconquered Sun." The complication here is over the question of whether Mithras and Sol Invictus are the same deity. Sometimes it seems that they are. There is an inscription from the first quarter of the second century CE, found in Rome, that refers to "Sol(i) M(ithrae)" (Clauss, p. 22). (Roman dedica-tions commonly included abbreviations; that the "M" referred to Mithras is obvi-ous because the inscription is on an image of him.) Further, Mithras is often called "Invictus," just like the sun.

There are two problems here. First, "Invictus" was a title which was applied to gods other than Mithras and Sol. Hercules, for instance, was called that, as were even emperors (Clauss, p. 24). This particular title is therefore not significant.

Even more telling, in the images we find in the Mithraic temples Sol is clearly separate from Mithras. He sends Mithras a message, invites him to heaven, shakes his hand, puts a crown on his head, and sits down at a meal with him. The best we can say, then, is that Mithras both was and wasn't the sun.

Of course, the date of Christmas is not particularly important in the origins of Christianity, and has no bearing on Christian theology. It is worth noting, however, that the feast of the birthday of the sun, while definitely Pagan, wasn't pre-Christian. It was only established in 274 CE by the emperor Aurelian (Hutton, p. 1). Even more significant, the most important feast day of Sol Invictus wasn't even on December 25th, but rather took place in October (Hutton, p. 2). All in all, then the idea that Christians took the date of Christmas from Mithraism is shaky at best, and insignificant to boot.

[Libertarian]

Haven't I read that "Xmas" is a "legit" word, and that it was coined by the Christians themselves???

The reason I'm asking is that Neil Cavuto on Fox just read an email (supporting his trumped up, hysterical war against the "war on Christmas") that said (I'm paraphrasing): "there's been a war on Christmas ever since the anti Christmas crowd started saying "xmas" instead of "Christmas."

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by Libertarian

Haven't I read that "Xmas" is a "legit" word, and that it was coined by the Christians themselves???

The reason I'm asking is that Neil Cavuto on Fox just read an email (supporting his trumped up, hysterical war against the "war on Christmas") that said (I'm paraphrasing): "there's been a war on Christmas ever since the anti Christmas crowd started saying "xmas" instead of "Christmas."

I love it when followers of a faith know so little about their own religious traditions.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally Posted by Libertarian

Haven't I read that "Xmas" is a "legit" word, and that it was coined by the Christians themselves???

The reason I'm asking is that Neil Cavuto on Fox just read an email (supporting his trumped up, hysterical war against the "war on Christmas") that said (I'm paraphrasing): "there's been a war on Christmas ever since the anti Christmas crowd started saying "xmas" instead of "Christmas."

That would be just after the Norman Conquest.

Pesky Normans.

Quote:

Xmas : "Christmas," 1551, X'temmas, wherein the X is an abbreviation for Christ in Christmas, from first letter of Gk. Christos "Christ" (see Christ). The earlier way to abbreviate it was Xp- or Xr-, corresponding to "Chr-," and the form Xres mæsse for "Christmas" appears in the "Anglo-Saxon Chronicle" (c.1100).

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by rikzilla

The real irony is that Christians co-opted pagan traditions and "xtianized" them in the first place. Christ's birthdate is not known...but Mithra (an ancient Persian God) was born on December 25th...thus they xtianized the cult of Mithra.

Earlier was the tale of Isis and Osiris. Osiris was killed by his evil brother Sett and chopped into seven pieces, who hid them in various parts of the world/Egypt. Isis, who created animals and could speak with them, learnt where the pieces were - "high in a tree", said the bird, "Deep in the sea" said the whale, "In the manure-heap" said the cows, kids love this stuff - and gathered them together over three days. To hide her activity from Sett she hid the pieces in a manger in the cow-byre. When they were all together Osiris was reborn as a baby - who rapidly grew up and went looking for Sett.
(Some variants say she couldn't find his penis, so had one fashioned out of bronze, but best not go there. Apart from noting that the snakes didn't help at all, so they've probably still got it. Their Doomsday weapon.)

This all happened around the solstice. Isis was very popular in Rome for centuries, and her feast day was the 25th December. (On that day anyone can see that the day is getting longer. For three days the god is dead then rises; for three days the sun lingers at its southern extremity, then it clearly rises further north.) People set up little shrines to Isis in their porches, Isis and the manger and the baby and the farm animals gathered around ... you get the picture.

Christianity is such a confection. How can anybody take it seriously?

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Weren't they on their way back to their home town because of a Rome-mandated census/tax thing? That would give an approximate time of year, though not a day. IIRC, I think it was some time in the spring, so the date's still wrong, but I do think we have an idea.

Of course there's absolutely no evidence that a Roman mandated census/tax thing was ever conducted that required everyone in the country (or Roman Emprire) to return to the town they were born in. And common sense would indicate that it would be really stupid to make thousands of people travel to their town of birth for a census rather than just take the census in their current town of residence.

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I love it when followers of a faith know so little about their own religious traditions.

It strikes me that today's religious extremists tend to come from socially observant backgrounds, where they weren't educated in the bases of the faith. It was all about stories and festival-days, nothing theological. This leaves them vulnerable, particularly as adolescents, to simplistic arguments by zealots. Christian fundies clinging to the Bible as, you know, gospel, thinking that's a tenet of the belief-system. Jewish fundies clinging to real-estate and blood-lines thinking they're tenets of the belief-system. Muslim fundies clinging to 7thCE Bedouin society as a tenet of the belief-system. Hindu fundies electing the BJP, Ghandicide notwithstanding, but India does seem to have got over that hump.

A lack of early exposure to a religion as a moral system, when it's included as a social system, appears to be dangerous. What we're seeing is, in some ways, a result of the secularisation of the 1940's, 50's, 60's generations.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Chanileslie

Don't you love marketing? Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer was also a marketing ploy. Whenever I see those "Remember the Reason for the Season" signs, I always think, "Marketing".

The truth is advertising has become the predominant driving force behind our culture.

Thanks, Jocko!

[Bentspoon]

There is controversy around the historcity of Jesus. Was he real or fabricated. If one was to take this man as historical based on the Bible or Josephus (not sure about that name - the Roman historian), it could only be about a short term of life from the scene with John the Baptist to his cucifixion. What? 3-5 years?

Based on that he could be a historical figure and probably was IMO. But the birth thing is so obviously a contrived myth that one would be more inclined to believe that Zeus really did screw a goose. Immaculate conception?? wandering stars???


Puhleeze!!!

Bentspoon

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Bentspoon

...one would be more inclined to believe that Zeus really did screw a goose.

Zeus didn't screw any goose, he took the form of a goose to seduce Leda. She screwed the goose.


ETA: Well, swan, actually.

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by Bob Klase

Of course there's absolutely no evidence that a Roman mandated census/tax thing was ever conducted that required everyone in the country (or Roman Emprire) to return to the town they were born in. And common sense would indicate that it would be really stupid to make thousands of people travel to their town of birth for a census rather than just take the census in their current town of residence.

Rome took direct control over Judaea about 6BC, making it part of the Province of Syria, which had been directly ruled since Pompey the Great's visit. A census was made at that time, standard procedure, to assess the poll-tax, amongst others. This sparked off a zealot rebellion, led by one Judas of Galilee, against the taxing of the Holy Land. Given by a god to a people, it would be blasphemy for those people to pay taxes for it to an earthly power. Judas was crucified. It really wasn't a good time to mess with the Romans. Thirty-odd years later his two sons were crucified in the midst of some unrest that is unusually ill-documented. Almost as if somebody got at the evidence.

The tax question is behind the "Give unto Caesar" feed to Jeebus, as reported by Fox. It was a deliberate, explicit distancing of Jeebus, and thus his followers, from anti-Roman terrorists.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

I wanna know when these folk are going to get all hot 'n bothered by the dozens of Christmas songs that have been around for decades...and which aren't Christmas songs:

"Happy Holidays" (Andy Williams)
"Winter Wonderland"
"Sleigh Ride"
"Frosty the Snowman"
"Jingle Bell Rock"
etc., etc.

Fundies. Ain't they somethin'?

Good old Jingle Bells

Quote:

A day or two ago
I thought I'd take a ride
And soon Miss Fanny Bright
Was seated by my side
The horse was lean and lank
Misfortune seemed his lot
We got into a drifted bank
And then we got upsot

I'll have to remember 'upsot' next time I'm playing Scrabble.

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Zeus didn't screw any goose ...

Zeus would screw anything. As anything. That was much of his appeal. The "I Did Not Have Sexual Relations With That Goose" papyrus is not substantiated.

[jjramsey]

Originally Posted by rikzilla

Then there's this:

Quote:

Most of the research into Mithraism, a religion with many parallels to Christianity, comes from two writers, Cumont and Ulansey with a variety of other writers input. Some Similarities Between Mithraism and Christianity are:
Virgin birth
Twelve followers
Killing and resurrection
Miracles
Birthdate on December 25
Morality
Mankind's savior
Known as the Light of the world

From here.

Some real info on the relationship between Mithras and Christianity:

http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Mithras

BTW, CapelDodger, Rome took direct control over Judaea about 6 A.D., not 6 B.C. and therein lies one of the problems with the census in Luke.

[Dr Adequate]

This just in: God hates Christmas trees.

"Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen....For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and hammers, that it move not." (Jeremiah 10:2-4)

[jj]

So, who's going to cast the moneylenders out of the temple this time?

[peptoabysmal]

Originally Posted by zenith-nadir

The irony of it all is these fundies want to bash Bush over his White House Christmas card yet Christmas is a fake holiday. The Bible does not mention the date of Jesus's birth.



So not only is Christmas fake, we don't know the date of Jesus's birth and the often-told legend of the "three wise men" is fake. The bible says "there came wise men from the east" not "there came three wise men from the east".

Even the way Santa Clause looks today was c-r-e-a-t-e-d by artist Haddon Sundblom for Coca-Cola ads in the 30s!

Yeah, but Coke is the real thing.

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by zenith-nadir

So not only is Christmas fake, we don't know the date of Jesus's birth and the often-told legend of the "three wise men" is fake. The bible says "there came wise men from the east" not "there came three wise men from the east".

Even the way Santa Clause looks today was c-r-e-a-t-e-d by artist Haddon Sundblom for Coca-Cola ads in the 30s!

Well, December 25 has never been Jesus' birthday (well, we're 364/365 percent sure, anyway.) It was selected as his birth anniversary, the day to celebrate his birth, which was also a common thing way back when when nobody had calendars and people never knew their birth date. Anyone claiming so is wriog with their own theology. The official position: Q. What's Jesus' birthday? Official Answer: We don't know. We choose to celebrate it 25 Dec. It's just that this bit gets lost in the common wisdom.

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Not explicitly, but I think it does implicitly through surrounding events. Weren't they on their way back to their home town because of a Rome-mandated census/tax thing? That would give an approximate time of year, though not a day. IIRC, I think it was some time in the spring, so the date's still wrong, but I do think we have an idea.

Also, it is mentioned somewhere that it was lambing season (?--I mean the time when sheeps tend to give birth) which would also indicate spring.

Since we all know the bible is never wrong, Christmas should be moved to sometime in March...