Iran leader: Holocaust a 'myth'

[CFLarsen]

Quote:

Iran leader: Holocaust a 'myth'

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Wednesday the Holocaust is a "myth" that Europeans have used to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.

"Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets," Ahmadinejad told a crowd of thousands in the southeastern city of Zahedan.

Six million Jews were killed in Europe during the Nazi Holocaust of World War II.

Ahmadinejad said it was the Europeans who committed crimes against the Jews and they, the United States or Canada should give part of their land to the Jews to establish a state.

Ahmadinejad provoked an international outcry in October when he called Israel a "disgraceful blot" that should be "wiped off the map."

Last week, he suggested that Israel should be transferred to Europe, drawing further condemnation.
Source

Dangerous.

[a_unique_person]

I think he actually said that Israel is a 'myth', not the holocaust. "a myth in the name of holocaust" is not saying the holocaust itself is the myth.

A similar concept is the mythology of the west in the USA, the outback in Australia, etc. That is, a concept of a life.

[geni]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

I think he actually said that Israel is a 'myth', not the holocaust. "a myth in the name of holocaust" is not saying the holocaust itself is the myth.

A similar concept is the mythology of the west in the USA, the outback in Australia, etc. That is, a concept of a life.

Quote:

They have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4527142.stm

[Euromutt]

Forty-five years too late. UN General Assembly resolution 273(III) is in effect Israel's birth certificate, signed by the international community. You can argue that the child is illegitimate, but disposing of it half a decade after it's been born would be murder.

By the same token, I don't recall Khomeini asking permission from his predominantly Sunni neighbors before creating a Shi'ite state in their midst.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by geni

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4527142.stm

The two translations contradict each other. If he is guilty of saying it, so be it, but which translation is correct?

[Zep]

I'm suspecting the meaning is lost a bit in translation, Geni. But even as reported, I still don't see it as saying that he said the Holocaust is a myth. Just that he contends they are making a myth out of a historical situation as justification for the ongoing existence of Israel. Perhaps, by way of example, like calling a stunning football loss a "huge tragedy".

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by Euromutt

Forty-five years too late. UN General Assembly resolution 273(III) is in effect Israel's birth certificate, signed by the international community. You can argue that the child is illegitimate, but disposing of it half a decade after it's been born would be murder.

I agree.

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

I think he actually said that Israel is a 'myth', not the holocaust.

Oh, that's OK then.

It's only the living six million jews in israel he wants killed and expelled; he didn't actually insult the memory of the dead six millions jews Hitler killed and expelled.

Somehow I'm not reassured.

[Chaos]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Oh, that's OK then.

It's only the living six million jews in israel he wants killed and expelled; he didn't actually insult the memory of the dead six millions jews Hitler killed and expelled.

Somehow I'm not reassured.

Who said anything about "OK"?

May I ask you to restrict your reaction to what people actually post, not to what your fantasy attributes to these statements?

[Flo]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

The two translations contradict each other. If he is guilty of saying it, so be it, but which translation is correct?

From the translations and the (generally horrified) reactions by Arab and Iranian speakers I've read and heard in the French media (here, for example) it looks like he actually said he denied the reality of the holocaust.

The sickness bequeathed by the west to the Muslim world, indeed.

[Darat]

Do we need anymore evidence before we conclude he is a mad man?

[Marc L]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

From the article

Quote:

Ahmadinejad said it was the Europeans who committed crimes against the Jews and they, the United States or Canada should give part of their land to the Jews to establish a state.

While I disagree with his goal, he does have a point here. It was the Germans (the Nazis) who committed the holocaust, not the Middle East. Granted, it's too late now to do anything about.

Before I get jumped on for being Anti-Semitic, let me say that I'm not arguing for or against there being a State of Israel, or where it should be made.

Marc

[Marc L]

Double post, sorry.

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by Darat

Do we need anymore evidence before we conclude he is a mad man?

How long before they have nukes?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally Posted by Darat

Do we need anymore evidence before we conclude he is a mad man?

And sadly, there are millions who think just like him.

Gosh...if only Israel would finally be destroyed and then all would be right in the world.

Quote:

Thursday, Nov. 13, 2003 5 p.m. EST

In a recent unpublished European Commission poll of 7,515 Europeans conducted by Taylor Nelson Sofres/EOS Gallup Europe, a majority of Europeans (74 percent in the tolerant Netherlands) named Israel as the biggest threat to world peace.

Israel is just ruining it for everyone.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by Darat

Do we need anymore evidence before we conclude he is a mad man?

I have no problem with him being found guilty of what the evidence convicts him of. The evidence for this particular claim appears to suffer from conflicting translations. I am sure that a few more days will remove the ambiguity.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

I have no problem with him being found guilty of what the evidence convicts him of. The evidence for this particular claim appears to suffer from conflicting translations. I am sure that a few more days will remove the ambiguity.

What about all his previous statements?

[Euromutt]

Are you nuts, Marc L? If Israel wasn't where it is now, where would western Europe get its avocadoes and grapefruit from?

And frankly, there's never been any love lost between the Arabs and the Persians, even before the Sunni/Shi'a schism. The existence of Israel (or lack thereof) simply does not affect Iran's interests in any material fashion. And hey, remember those TOW missiles Ollie North sold the Iranians back in the 1980s? Those came from Israeli stocks, which the US subsequently replenished. So you had the rather incongruous result that the Iranians were using anti-tank missiles with Hebrew markings against Iraqi (Arab) tanks. Still, the Hebrew didn't seem to bother the Iranians at the time.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by Darat

What about all his previous statements?

I was only commenting on this one. His call for "israel to be pushed into the sea" I disagreed with. You still have to find him guilty of the things he is guilty of. As to whether or not he is a nut, there are plenty of them around ruling other countries. He doesn't seem the full two bobs worth to me.

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by Zep

I'm suspecting the meaning is lost a bit in translation, Geni. But even as reported, I still don't see it as saying that he said the Holocaust is a myth. Just that he contends they are making a myth out of a historical situation as justification for the ongoing existence of Israel.

Which, curiously enough, is exactly the position of the liberal European intelligentia about israel.

Without going into details into why this view is, shall we say, not exactly accurate, doesn't the fact that European elite public opinion about israel agrees with that of the president of the world's largest Islamic theocracy, who had openly and repeatedly called for israel's destruction, tell us something about what elite European public opinion's worth?

(Of course, the selfsame european elites would be shocked and embarrased if they agreed substantially about some important issue with a really bad person, such as G. W. Bush...)

[Skeptic]

I was only commenting on this one. His call for "israel to be pushed into the sea" I disagreed with.

Well, not really. You're on record claiming the Arabs were justified in attempting to do just that in 1948.

[demon]

Mofaz: Israel must face Iran with solutions
'other than diplomatic'

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz on Friday spoke harshly against Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadenijad saying Israel must prepare solutions "other than diplomatic" in the face of Tehran's persistent advancement of its nuclear program.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/655943.html


As usual, Israel`s direct threats of violence don`t get any media condemnation.
Israel must prepare solutions "other than diplomatic" - surely the world media is not going to sit back and allow such incitement to violence from the direction of Israel, when they didn't sit back on the Iranian leader's speech suggesting that the occupying regime in Jerusalem should be wiped out only a few weeks ago?
Israel's words are certainly stronger than those recent words of Iran - and Israel has the military power and track record to back them up.


Here`s another article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...920074,00.html

One has only to imagine the tone of the article were the players reversed to see the hypocrisy of this report. There are also echoes, in comments about the international effort soon "having run its course", of US statements prior to invading Iraq. Note too that the fact Israel has a listening post in northern Iraq is mentioned without comment. Also the Osirak myth persists.

[Perforatu]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Which, curiously enough, is exactly the position of the liberal European intelligentia about israel.

Without going into details into why this view is, shall we say, not exactly accurate, doesn't the fact that European elite public opinion about israel agrees with that of the president of the world's largest Islamic theocracy, who had openly and repeatedly called for israel's destruction, tell us something about what elite European public opinion's worth?

(Of course, the selfsame european elites would be shocked and embarrased if they agreed substantially about some important issue with a really bad person, such as G. W. Bush...)

My curiosity is piqued by this statement. Even though I'm from the Netherlands, I'm not familiar with this particular opinion of the (liberal) European elite/intelligentsia.

Why is this? Maybe one European country's 'liberal elite/intelligentsia' are virtually unknown in another? Perhaps the 'liberal elite/intelligentsia' from one European country do not necessarily share the views of the other? Maybe the views aren't even strictly 'European', but shared by a number of American 'lower class/stupiditsia' as well?

Can you show me a few links or quotes or articles that prove this is indeed, as far as the western world is concerned, exclusively the opinion of all 'European elites/intelligentsia'?

[Dr Adequate]

Originally Posted by zenith-nadir

And sadly, there are millions who think just like him.

Gosh...if only Israel would finally be destroyed and then all would be right in the world.

From your link:

Quote:

Eldar also claims that simply saying the world's view of Israel is that the Jewish state poses a threat to world stability is not an anti-Semitic view: "Arguing it takes an anti-Semite to call the Israeli government's policies of 2003 a danger to world peace is a contemptible cheapening of the term anti-Semitism."

[LW]

Originally Posted by Perforatu

Can you show me a few links or quotes or articles that prove this is indeed, as far as the western world is concerned, exclusively the opinion of all 'European elites/intelligentsia'?

I wish you good luck on your quest to get Skeptic support that particular statement. I tried it two or three times before I realised the futility of it.

[webfusion]

demon, if you can't see the difference between asking for the complete eradication of an entire nation, and an isolated raid against a military-value target (NATANZ, for instance), then it is small wonder you are confused by the overall situation in the MidEast, as evidenced by many of your postings here.

[Flo]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Without going into details into why this view is, shall we say, not exactly accurate, ...

Speaking about your view of the liberal European intelligentia ....

[Dr Adequate]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

European elite public opinion about israel agrees with that of the president of the world's largest Islamic theocracy, who had openly and repeatedly called for israel's destruction...

Please tell us which European elite agrees that Israel should be destroyed.

How do you identify this "elite"?

The normal method of deciding that you face a sinister elite of imaginary enemies involves hysteria and paranoia; but please tell me that you've found another method.

[Flo]

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

Please tell us which European elite agrees that Israel should be destroyed.

How do you identify this "elite"?

The normal method of deciding that you face a sinister elite of imaginary enemies involves hysteria and paranoia; but please tell me that you've found another method.

I suspect he was referring to Geni's

Quote:

"they are making a myth out of a historical situation as justification for the ongoing existence of Israel."

but even pretending "European liberal elite" agrees on this bit is a big fat strawman.

[LW]

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

Please tell us which European elite agrees that Israel should be destroyed.

Several years ago, in a thread that has been purged from database Skeptic went even further claiming that: "European liberals want the death of all Jews".

That was the moment when I stopped taking his political views seriously.

[Edited to add: that thread was number 11522 but that thread number has been recycled and is now on completely different subject.]

[Chaos]

Originally Posted by Flo

Speaking about your view of the liberal European intelligentia ....

The day "Skeptic" posts an accurate assessment about anything European or anyone who disagrees with him will be the day the world comes to an end.

[Darat]

As admin: Polite request - keep to the topic under discussion not personalities.

Moderation questions moved to the appropriate Forum section.

Posted By:Darat

[ImaginalDisc]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Which, curiously enough, is exactly the position of the liberal European intelligentia about israel.

Ok, I'll make the Hitler reference. Hitler was a vegetarian and was an outspoken critic of cosmetics.

However, I don't compare my sister to Hitler when she tries to switch to a vegetarian diet, and starts to use less make-up. Would you?

Heck, the white supremecists here are Holocaust deniers too, are you suggesting that they're joined at the cranium with Iranian supremacists?

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by demon

As usual, Israel`s direct threats of violence don`t get any media condemnation.

Wow, isn't that turning the world on it's head.

Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons, the presidend of Iran claims Israel should be wiped off the map, yet you claim it's Israel making a direct threat of violence.

[Manny]

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Heck, the white supremecists here are Holocaust deniers too, are you suggesting that they're joined at the cranium with Iranian supremacists?

Syria, actually.

[ImaginalDisc]

Originally Posted by manny

Syria, actually.

Syria as well I gather, but point taken.

Holocaust deniers are a very scary form of woo.

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Ok, I'll make the Hitler reference. Hitler was a vegetarian and was an outspoken critic of cosmetics.

However, I don't compare my sister to Hitler when she tries to switch to a vegetarian diet, and starts to use less make-up. Would you?

No; but if she wears funny clothes, you will tell her that she "dresses like a clown", while if she eats three big macs at one sitting you will tell her that she "eats like a pig".

This would hardly mean that you think your sister really is a clown or a pig, and I am not saying European intelligentia is the same as Muslim fanatics. But when your view of israeli history is the same as that of Muslims fanatics, something is wrong with your views, wouldn't you say?

[Perforatu]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

No; but if she wears funny clothes, you will tell her that she "dresses like a clown", while if she eats three big macs at one sitting you will tell her that she "eats like a pig".

This would hardly mean that you think your sister really is a clown or a pig, and I am not saying European intelligentia is the same as Muslim fanatics. But when your view of israeli history is the same as that of Muslims fanatics, something is wrong with your views, wouldn't you say?

I'd agree, except I am far from convinced this actually is the view of the 'European intelligentsia'. I'm not even convinced the 'European intelligentsia', as you call it, is homogenous or connected enough to collectively arrive at this opinion. Living in the Netherlands, and being fairly up-to-date on world matters, you'd think I would have heard something about it.

I'm sure there's a few intelligentsia (who happen to be European) who share the view you describe, just as I'm sure there's stupiditsia and averagetsia on both sides of the Atlantic who share it. But as to your original statement - I'm still waiting for links, articles or evidence of any kind.

[jj]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Wow, isn't that turning the world on it's head.

Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons, the presidend of Iran claims Israel should be wiped off the map, yet you claim it's Israel making a direct threat of violence.

Well, they are, in self-defense. In response to a threat, in self defense, but yes, it is a threat of violence.

After all, if somebody comes after you with a loaded B29, you're not being peaceful by launching a half-dozen sidewinders (or whatever) at them. You are, on the other hand, engaging in self-defense. Sometimes self-defense has to be violent.

[jj]

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Syria as well I gather, but point taken.

Holocaust deniers are a very scary form of woo.

Are they a form of woo, or are they a form of racist/somethingist?