Why did god creat man with so many sins?

yinyinwang · 20th December 2005, 01:03 AM

And if it is a sin itself to create so many sin-carriers. Does a animal have any sin?

David Swidler · 20th December 2005, 01:07 AM

Not sure what you're getting at here. You mean sin, or just the capacity for it?

kuroyume0161 · 20th December 2005, 01:48 AM

According to the Bible (Genesis), God created humans as perfect (without sin). It was the act of eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge prompted by the serpent that introduced sin (original sin - id est: knowledge). Obviously, the 'tree of knowledge' and fruit thereof are metaphors.

I think that the more pressing question, which relates to yours, is this:

Why did God allow his untarnished pinnacles of creation to be tempted into sin in the first place? This relates back to the problem of free will. Was free will part of the perfection or was it introduced by the act of sin? Could beings 'without sin' have free will? After that, I'll need a beer...

MRC_Hans · 20th December 2005, 02:32 AM

If we are to use a sensible interpretation of Genesis, sin was introduced as knowledge of sin. By becoming sentient, man aquired moral distinction, and thus, the concept of sin. This imples that animals are without sin (assuming they are not sentient, an assumption that can certainly be debated, for a number of species), because, althought they may perform acts that are regarded as sinful by humans, they are unaware, and thus blameless.

Hans

Tricky · 20th December 2005, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by yinyinwang

And if it is a sin itself to create so many sin-carriers. Does a animal have any sin?

I don't believe in the concept of sin, because I regard it as an offense against a god which I don't believe in. I do believe in morality, which is something we develop based on our upbringing (including religious training) and our natural empathy. But it too is a human contrivance.

In the animal kingdom, there are creatures which murder (including killing their children), rape (including gang rape), commit adultry, engage in homosexuality, and in general exhibit envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed and sloth (not sure about pride).

If God created all living things, then He created us with all of those tendencies. It's hard to see why anyone should be grateful to such a being. But if you just shrug and say "that's life", then it is much easier to deal with.

Morrison's Lament · 20th December 2005, 04:01 AM

In that particular chapter there are two contradicting accounts of creation. God also spends some time running around his garden on foot SEARCHING for Adam and Eve and getting angered that they are hiding from him.

Let´s just say it wasn't one of his most omnipotent days.

--- G.

Zep · 20th December 2005, 04:04 AM

He had to count to 4004 though...

ImaginalDisc · 20th December 2005, 04:06 AM

In order for there to be a world in which god exists, and evil exists, god must either lack the power to prevent evil, or lack the desire to do so. A god who is truely truely omnipotent and good could of course remove evil.

KingMerv00 · 20th December 2005, 06:50 AM

Why did God create the tree of knowledge anyway? Did it serve some purpose?

Why put it in Eden? Why not the moon?

Why create serpent that he knows will tempt them?

Genesius · 20th December 2005, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

Why did God create the tree of knowledge anyway? Did it serve some purpose?

Why put it in Eden? Why not the moon?

Why create serpent that he knows will tempt them?

As Lord Melchett so eloquently put it: "As private parts to the gods are we, they play with us for their sport."

Huh-What? · 20th December 2005, 12:19 PM

God didn't create man to be imperfect (with sin).
We, man, created God to be perfect.

ImaginalDisc · 20th December 2005, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Huh-What?

God didn't create man to be imperfect (with sin).
We, man, created God to be perfect.

::blows whistle::

Huh-What, I Yellow Card you for making sense in a discussion about religion. That's not allowed.

If it were, then it might get out of hand, and people would be thinking. We can't have that, now can we?

Soapy Sam · 20th December 2005, 12:27 PM

I bet, whatever language god speaks has a word for "schadenfreude".

I am smugly happy that English does not.

To Hell with HIM.

Dogdoctor · 20th December 2005, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by yinyinwang

And if it is a sin itself to create so many sin-carriers. Does a animal have any sin?

I don't think there is any chance for animals to sin except human animals. We can deliberately choose to do things which may be considered sinning. Other animals don't have a lot of choices to make and function mostly without conscious choices. Also the ten commandments quite obviously does not apply to chimpanzees or most other animals or else you would have to consider the entire animal kingdom sinners by design.

Beerina · 20th December 2005, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by kuroyume0161

According to the Bible (Genesis), God created humans as perfect (without sin). It was the act of eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge prompted by the serpent that introduced sin (original sin - id est: knowledge). Obviously, the 'tree of knowledge' and fruit thereof are metaphors.

Ironically, although the religous would never admit it, it's a pretty good metaphor for intelligence evolving. At some point, intelligence got so great that humans could empathize with their fellows, and realize that something like the Golden Rule might be a good idea. In other words, merely slavishly following animalistic arrogance and theft and taking advantage of size advantages was wrong.

This animalistic take-your-neighbor's-stuff concept has largely been purged from civilized human activity, being relegated to the realm of disapproval, excepting the rare situation of democratic governments.

Also, they comprehended the delicious naughtiness of being naked, but unfortunately went the wrong way with it.

UrsulaV · 20th December 2005, 03:22 PM

I assume that if you were looking for a way to amuse yourself for all eternity, the sinful are way more fun to watch.

yinyinwang · 20th December 2005, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by David Swidler

Not sure what you're getting at here. You mean sin, or just the capacity for it?

Can he just make some original-sin-free being or sin-capacity-free person?

Genesius · 20th December 2005, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by yinyinwang

Can he just make some original-sin-free being or sin-capacity-free person?

If you buy into Christianity, he did just that - supposedly the Virgin Mary was born without Original Sin. This, not the virgin birth of Jesus, was the Immaculate Conception.

And if you believe any of it, I've got a steal of a deal on a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to talk to you about. . .

Iamme · 20th December 2005, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

Why did God create the tree of knowledge anyway? Did it serve some purpose?

Why put it in Eden? Why not the moon?

Why create serpent that he knows will tempt them?

1. It helped to determine if man was going to do things the way man wants, or if man is going to do what God wants.

2. Well, God chose earth. Since the Bible account has it that all of life sprang forth from one location...then I guess you have to have it in an incubatory like place; Iraq.

3. God created an angel called Lucifer. Lucifer, up in heaven already determined Lucifer was going to do things Lucifer's way. God gave him the boot. Lucifer became the snake, Satan, the devil. God didn't create the devil. Lucifer created the devil inside hisself.

Ragutis · 20th December 2005, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Iamme

1. It helped to determine if man was going to do things the way man wants, or if man is going to do what God wants.

2. Well, God chose earth. Since the Bible account has it that all of life sprang forth from one location...then I guess you have to have it in an incubatory like place; Iraq.

3. God created an angel called Lucifer. Lucifer, up in heaven already determined Lucifer was going to do things Lucifer's way. God gave him the boot. Lucifer became the snake, Satan, the devil. God didn't create the devil. Lucifer created the devil inside hisself.

1) Omniscience, schmomniscience...

2) the question was: WHY?

3) I know it was early in the game, but HE really did have a hard time getting up to speed on that omniscience thing, didn't HE?

stamenflicker · 20th December 2005, 09:53 PM

Genesis 2:16-17 & 3:4-5. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

So if eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was evil, and you didn't have the knowledge of evil before you ate, how are you commiting evil by eating it before you knew what evil was?

The ancient Hebrews weren't stupid. It's seems obvious to me they never meant the story to be taken literally. Instead it was probably a theological logic puzzle they used around the campfire to keep themselves occupied on long trips.

But does this logic puzzle have an answer? Tune in at 6:00!!

Flick

Complexity · 20th December 2005, 09:59 PM

There is no god.

Man was not created.

There is no sin.

kuroyume0161 · 21st December 2005, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Complexity

There is no god.

Man was not created.

There is no sin.

Well, duh...

This is all hypothetical hyperbole. Obviously, one has to suppose that there is any coherence to the Genesis creation myth and try to justify its incoherency in order to go along with the OP.

I go with the idea that animals have no sin since they were not tarnished by 'sentience' as we were. Despite the inconsistencies and metaphors, it is interesting that sentience was noted so long ago as a defining difference between humans and other lifeforms. But they do a great disservice by vilifying the same facet that allowed them to make such distinctions.

KingMerv00 · 21st December 2005, 07:45 AM

What religion are you Iamme? Are you a YEC? Do you take Genesis literally?

Originally Posted by Iamme

1. It helped to determine if man was going to do things the way man wants, or if man is going to do what God wants.

God: Well it's time to plant the tree. I wonder if the humans will eat from it....Oh wait! Now I remember, I'm all-knowing. What a waste of time!

If God really didn't know the answer, why not just put a simple, non-magical tree in the Garden of Eden and tell Adam and Eve not to eat its fruit. That way, if they did, you wouldn't curse ALL OF CREATION FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!!

Quote:

2. Well, God chose earth. Since the Bible account has it that all of life sprang forth from one location...then I guess you have to have it in an incubatory like place; Iraq.

You misunderstood the question. I don't feel like explaining it.

Quote:

3. God created an angel called Lucifer. Lucifer, up in heaven already determined Lucifer was going to do things Lucifer's way. God gave him the boot. Lucifer became the snake, Satan, the devil. God didn't create the devil. Lucifer created the devil inside hisself.

I don't think the serpent is ever referred to as Lucifer. I could be wrong.

Anyway, you are missing the whole point of this mental excercise. God knew what would happen in advance and rigged the system.

Belz... · 21st December 2005, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Iamme

1. It helped to determine if man was going to do things the way man wants, or if man is going to do what God wants.

So... how did we have free will without knowledge of good and evil ?

Quote:

3. God created an angel called Lucifer. Lucifer, up in heaven already determined Lucifer was going to do things Lucifer's way. God gave him the boot. Lucifer became the snake, Satan, the devil. God didn't create the devil. Lucifer created the devil inside hisself.

Woah, the bibble doesn't mention Lucifer, only the serpent. Though one can interpret it as Lucifer, it isn't mentionned.

Belz... · 21st December 2005, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

If God really didn't know the answer, why not just put a simple, non-magical tree in the Garden of Eden and tell Adam and Eve not to eat its fruit. That way, if they did, you wouldn't curse ALL OF CREATION FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!!

This brings up another point. If God saw that his creation was flawed, why did he tell them to "be fruitful and multiply" instead of scrapping the design and coming up with a new model ?

Morrison's Lament · 21st December 2005, 09:21 AM

Belz...: Clearly, God works for Microsoft.

--- G.

Piscivore · 21st December 2005, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Tricky

In the animal kingdom, there are creatures which ... exhibit envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed and sloth (not sure about pride).

You've obviously not spent a lot of time with a cat.

ImaginalDisc · 21st December 2005, 09:25 AM

Well, I have an example of pride and gluttony amoung animals right here. It's an article about a python in the Florida Everglades exploding after trying to eat an aligator which appearantly didn't agree with it.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...eatsgator.html

You were warned.

KingMerv00 · 21st December 2005, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

This brings up another point. If God saw that his creation was flawed, why did he tell them to "be fruitful and multiply" instead of scrapping the design and coming up with a new model ?

Adam 2.0 would not be so stupid as to disobey an all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing creator.

pgwenthold · 21st December 2005, 09:39 AM

I was thinking the other day as I was listening to Alanis Morrisette. If masturbation is a sin, why did God make it feel so good? All that does is tempt us. So much for "lead us not unto temptation..."

But I was also thinking about answers. For example, maybe it would be argued that because we have free will, he wants us to chose not to sin. But that doesn't really explain why masturbation has to be pleasurable. Smashing my hand with a sledgehammer might not feel good, but I certainly have the ability to chose to do it, and the fact that I am not tempted to do it doesn't compromise my free will at all.

Alternatively, some might argue that not all things that feel good are good for you. For example, too much food will lead to health problems, and alcoholism is a big problem, too. My answer would be, though, that these are examples of problems of excess, not in the things themselves. Food itself is not bad for you, and is required for living. TOO MUCH food is a different story. Similarly, moderate alcohol is not a problem at all. In the same way, it is possible to overdo it on masturbation, too, as it becomes such an obsession that it harms social interactions (a caller on Talk Sex with Sue Johannson once claimed he masturbated 12 times a day; there's a concern there...) So if this is the argument, then shouldn't the sin be EXCESSIVENESS, and not masturbation?

I don't understand it. It doesn't hurt others, not harmful to one's self (unless massively excessive, which few do), and feels good.

Why would God make it this way and then have it be a sin? It doesn't make sense.

(note - as a theological question; the issue of it not actually being God calling it a sin but just religious people using it to control the masses aside)

Marc L · 21st December 2005, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by kuroyume0161

According to the Bible (Genesis), God created humans as perfect (without sin). It was the act of eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge...

Just a minor point. I saw someone else say this in a later post, which is why I'm bringing it up. It wasn't the Tree of Knowledge, it was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Why the distinction? With knowledge alone, I can type a sentence, turn on a computer, things like that. Since knowledge is gained through experience, there'd be no need for such a tree to exist. One millisecond after Adam's creation, he had knowledge. Not much, granted, but he still had knowledge.

What he didn't have was the knowledge of right and wrong. In other words, he had to depend utterly on God to tell him how he was supposed to behave-just like a child. Upon eating the fruit, Adam and Eve were suddenly able to judge for themselves what was good and what was evil-hence their immediate covering of their bodies. Before they ate the fruit, nakedness wasn't bad, afterwards (for whatever reason), they thought it was.

Yes, I know, I'm nitpicking a fictional story, but I personally feel that it's important to know what it is you're arguing against before you start arguing about it.

Marc

yinyinwang · 21st December 2005, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by kuroyume0161

According to the Bible (Genesis), God created humans as perfect (without sin). It was the act of eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge prompted by the serpent that introduced sin (original sin - id est: knowledge). Obviously, the 'tree of knowledge' and fruit thereof are metaphors.

I think that the more pressing question, which relates to yours, is this:

Why did God allow his untarnished pinnacles of creation to be tempted into sin in the first place? This relates back to the problem of free will. Was free will part of the perfection or was it introduced by the act of sin? Could beings 'without sin' have free will? After that, I'll need a beer...

Lets imagine god made some perfect DNA and someone put sin into it later. But why didn't god undo the change afterward?

ceo_esq · 22nd December 2005, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by kuroyume0161

According to the Bible (Genesis), God created humans as perfect (without sin). It was the act of eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge prompted by the serpent that introduced sin (original sin - id est: knowledge). Obviously, the 'tree of knowledge' and fruit thereof are metaphors.

Surely, according to that narrative, the first sin was simply the disobedient choice, rather any kind of knowledge as such?

stamenflicker · 22nd December 2005, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by ceo_esq

Surely, according to that narrative, the first sin was simply the disobedient choice, rather any kind of knowledge as such?

But how do you know disobedience is a bad thing if you have no concept of bad? Again, this contradiction was placed on purpose. It's a pretty wise contradiction and a good teaching tool imho.

Flick

Ragutis · 22nd December 2005, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by stamenflicker

But how do you know disobedience is a bad thing if you have no concept of bad? Again, this contradiction was placed on purpose. It's a pretty wise contradiction and a good teaching tool imho.

Flick

For what... blind obedience?

Complexity · 22nd December 2005, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by kuroyume0161

Well, duh...

This is all hypothetical hyperbole. Obviously, one has to suppose that there is any coherence to the Genesis creation myth and try to justify its incoherency in order to go along with the OP.

Why bother? Don't you have anything better to do?

Godmode · 22nd December 2005, 07:51 PM

Why was knowlege considered evil anyways? What is wrong with seeking answers? I think this is just a metaphor to keep people under control. The more you know, the less likely you are to follow blind.

stamenflicker · 22nd December 2005, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by Ragutis

For what... blind obedience?

No for placing good and evil outside of human purview.

Flick

Marc L · 24th December 2005, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Godmode

Why was knowlege considered evil anyways? What is wrong with seeking answers? I think this is just a metaphor to keep people under control. The more you know, the less likely you are to follow blind.

Again, it wasn't knowledge itself that was the sin, it was the knowledge of good and evil. Basically deciding your own morals for yourself rather than relying on God to tell them to you.

Marc

20th December 2005, 01:03 AM	#1
yinyinwang Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Deep in hell Posts: 603	Why did god creat man with so many sins? And if it is a sin itself to create so many sin-carriers. Does a animal have any sin?
	__________________ Hell for mind is heaven for mindless My web pages: http://wayofnature.sunhi.org

20th December 2005, 02:32 AM	#4
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,602	If we are to use a sensible interpretation of Genesis, sin was introduced as knowledge of sin. By becoming sentient, man aquired moral distinction, and thus, the concept of sin. This imples that animals are without sin (assuming they are not sentient, an assumption that can certainly be debated, for a number of species), because, althought they may perform acts that are regarded as sinful by humans, they are unaware, and thus blameless. Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

20th December 2005, 04:01 AM	#6
Morrison's Lament Sardonic Pessimist Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Berlin (and Reykjavik, soon) Posts: 282	In that particular chapter there are two contradicting accounts of creation. God also spends some time running around his garden on foot SEARCHING for Adam and Eve and getting angered that they are hiding from him. Let´s just say it wasn't one of his most omnipotent days. --- G.
	__________________ "A little poison now and then: that maketh pleasant dreams. And much poison at last for a pleasant death." - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche 'Thus Spake Zarathustra'

20th December 2005, 04:04 AM	#7
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	He had to count to 4004 though...
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

20th December 2005, 06:50 AM	#9
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Why did God create the tree of knowledge anyway? Did it serve some purpose? Why put it in Eden? Why not the moon? Why create serpent that he knows will tempt them?
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

20th December 2005, 01:07 AM	#2
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Not sure what you're getting at here. You mean sin, or just the capacity for it?

20th December 2005, 01:48 AM	#3
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Loveland, CO, USA Posts: 1,628	According to the Bible (Genesis), God created humans as perfect (without sin). It was the act of eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge prompted by the serpent that introduced sin (original sin - id est: knowledge). Obviously, the 'tree of knowledge' and fruit thereof are metaphors. I think that the more pressing question, which relates to yours, is this: Why did God allow his untarnished pinnacles of creation to be tempted into sin in the first place? This relates back to the problem of free will. Was free will part of the perfection or was it introduced by the act of sin? Could beings 'without sin' have free will? After that, I'll need a beer...

20th December 2005, 02:54 AM	#5
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,365	Originally Posted by yinyinwang And if it is a sin itself to create so many sin-carriers. Does a animal have any sin? I don't believe in the concept of sin, because I regard it as an offense against a god which I don't believe in. I do believe in morality, which is something we develop based on our upbringing (including religious training) and our natural empathy. But it too is a human contrivance. In the animal kingdom, there are creatures which murder (including killing their children), rape (including gang rape), commit adultry, engage in homosexuality, and in general exhibit envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed and sloth (not sure about pride). If God created all living things, then He created us with all of those tendencies. It's hard to see why anyone should be grateful to such a being. But if you just shrug and say "that's life", then it is much easier to deal with.

20th December 2005, 04:06 AM	#8
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	In order for there to be a world in which god exists, and evil exists, god must either lack the power to prevent evil, or lack the desire to do so. A god who is truely truely omnipotent and good could of course remove evil.

20th December 2005, 09:22 AM	#10
Genesius Apathetic Agnostic Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 1,534	Originally Posted by KingMerv00 Why did God create the tree of knowledge anyway? Did it serve some purpose? Why put it in Eden? Why not the moon? Why create serpent that he knows will tempt them? As Lord Melchett so eloquently put it: "As private parts to the gods are we, they play with us for their sport."

20th December 2005, 12:19 PM	#11
Huh-What? Thinker Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 154	God didn't create man to be imperfect (with sin). We, man, created God to be perfect.
	__________________ "Science is hard, takes a lot of work, and requires too much thinking; religion, on the other hand, laughs at hard thought and offers eternal salvation and glorious life, all for the price of a few hymns sung and some hours every Sunday being hypnotised in a pretty building." - zaayrdragon

20th December 2005, 12:23 PM	#12
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Huh-What? God didn't create man to be imperfect (with sin). We, man, created God to be perfect. ::blows whistle:: Huh-What, I Yellow Card you for making sense in a discussion about religion. That's not allowed. If it were, then it might get out of hand, and people would be thinking. We can't have that, now can we?

20th December 2005, 12:27 PM	#13
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	I bet, whatever language god speaks has a word for "schadenfreude". I am smugly happy that English does not. To Hell with HIM.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

20th December 2005, 12:42 PM	#14
Dogdoctor Canis Doctorius Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pacific Ocean Posts: 14,284	Originally Posted by yinyinwang And if it is a sin itself to create so many sin-carriers. Does a animal have any sin? I don't think there is any chance for animals to sin except human animals. We can deliberately choose to do things which may be considered sinning. Other animals don't have a lot of choices to make and function mostly without conscious choices. Also the ten commandments quite obviously does not apply to chimpanzees or most other animals or else you would have to consider the entire animal kingdom sinners by design.
	__________________

20th December 2005, 12:50 PM	#15
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by kuroyume0161 According to the Bible (Genesis), God created humans as perfect (without sin). It was the act of eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge prompted by the serpent that introduced sin (original sin - id est: knowledge). Obviously, the 'tree of knowledge' and fruit thereof are metaphors. Ironically, although the religous would never admit it, it's a pretty good metaphor for intelligence evolving. At some point, intelligence got so great that humans could empathize with their fellows, and realize that something like the Golden Rule might be a good idea. In other words, merely slavishly following animalistic arrogance and theft and taking advantage of size advantages was wrong. This animalistic take-your-neighbor's-stuff concept has largely been purged from civilized human activity, being relegated to the realm of disapproval, excepting the rare situation of democratic governments. Also, they comprehended the delicious naughtiness of being naked, but unfortunately went the wrong way with it.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

20th December 2005, 03:22 PM	#16
UrsulaV Muse Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 957	I assume that if you were looking for a way to amuse yourself for all eternity, the sinful are way more fun to watch.
UrsulaV Muse Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 957

20th December 2005, 06:16 PM	#17
yinyinwang Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Deep in hell Posts: 603	Originally Posted by David Swidler Not sure what you're getting at here. You mean sin, or just the capacity for it? Can he just make some original-sin-free being or sin-capacity-free person?
	__________________ Hell for mind is heaven for mindless My web pages: http://wayofnature.sunhi.org

20th December 2005, 06:30 PM	#18
Genesius Apathetic Agnostic Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 1,534	Originally Posted by yinyinwang Can he just make some original-sin-free being or sin-capacity-free person? If you buy into Christianity, he did just that - supposedly the Virgin Mary was born without Original Sin. This, not the virgin birth of Jesus, was the Immaculate Conception. And if you believe any of it, I've got a steal of a deal on a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to talk to you about. . .

20th December 2005, 06:44 PM	#19
Iamme Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Western Wisconsin Posts: 4,622	Originally Posted by KingMerv00 Why did God create the tree of knowledge anyway? Did it serve some purpose? Why put it in Eden? Why not the moon? Why create serpent that he knows will tempt them? 1. It helped to determine if man was going to do things the way man wants, or if man is going to do what God wants. 2. Well, God chose earth. Since the Bible account has it that all of life sprang forth from one location...then I guess you have to have it in an incubatory like place; Iraq. 3. God created an angel called Lucifer. Lucifer, up in heaven already determined Lucifer was going to do things Lucifer's way. God gave him the boot. Lucifer became the snake, Satan, the devil. God didn't create the devil. Lucifer created the devil inside hisself.
	__________________ I lost my mind many years ago and it hasn't affected me a bit...a bit..a bit..a bit.

20th December 2005, 07:58 PM	#20
Ragutis Student Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 43	Originally Posted by Iamme 1. It helped to determine if man was going to do things the way man wants, or if man is going to do what God wants. 2. Well, God chose earth. Since the Bible account has it that all of life sprang forth from one location...then I guess you have to have it in an incubatory like place; Iraq. 3. God created an angel called Lucifer. Lucifer, up in heaven already determined Lucifer was going to do things Lucifer's way. God gave him the boot. Lucifer became the snake, Satan, the devil. God didn't create the devil. Lucifer created the devil inside hisself. 1) Omniscience, schmomniscience... 2) the question was: WHY? 3) I know it was early in the game, but HE really did have a hard time getting up to speed on that omniscience thing, didn't HE?
Ragutis Student Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 43	__________________ Aborigine: "If I did not know of God or sin, would I go to hell?" Missionary: "No, not if you did not know." Aborigine: "So, why did you tell me?"

20th December 2005, 09:53 PM	#21
stamenflicker Muse Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Tennessee Posts: 869	Genesis 2:16-17 & 3:4-5. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." So if eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was evil, and you didn't have the knowledge of evil before you ate, how are you commiting evil by eating it before you knew what evil was? The ancient Hebrews weren't stupid. It's seems obvious to me they never meant the story to be taken literally. Instead it was probably a theological logic puzzle they used around the campfire to keep themselves occupied on long trips. But does this logic puzzle have an answer? Tune in at 6:00!! Flick

20th December 2005, 09:59 PM	#22
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	There is no god. Man was not created. There is no sin.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

21st December 2005, 06:46 AM	#23
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Loveland, CO, USA Posts: 1,628	Originally Posted by Complexity There is no god. Man was not created. There is no sin. Well, duh... This is all hypothetical hyperbole. Obviously, one has to suppose that there is any coherence to the Genesis creation myth and try to justify its incoherency in order to go along with the OP. I go with the idea that animals have no sin since they were not tarnished by 'sentience' as we were. Despite the inconsistencies and metaphors, it is interesting that sentience was noted so long ago as a defining difference between humans and other lifeforms. But they do a great disservice by vilifying the same facet that allowed them to make such distinctions.

21st December 2005, 07:45 AM	#24
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	What religion are you Iamme? Are you a YEC? Do you take Genesis literally? Originally Posted by Iamme 1. It helped to determine if man was going to do things the way man wants, or if man is going to do what God wants. God: Well it's time to plant the tree. I wonder if the humans will eat from it....Oh wait! Now I remember, I'm all-knowing. What a waste of time! If God really didn't know the answer, why not just put a simple, non-magical tree in the Garden of Eden and tell Adam and Eve not to eat its fruit. That way, if they did, you wouldn't curse ALL OF CREATION FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!! Quote: 2. Well, God chose earth. Since the Bible account has it that all of life sprang forth from one location...then I guess you have to have it in an incubatory like place; Iraq. You misunderstood the question. I don't feel like explaining it. Quote: 3. God created an angel called Lucifer. Lucifer, up in heaven already determined Lucifer was going to do things Lucifer's way. God gave him the boot. Lucifer became the snake, Satan, the devil. God didn't create the devil. Lucifer created the devil inside hisself. I don't think the serpent is ever referred to as Lucifer. I could be wrong. Anyway, you are missing the whole point of this mental excercise. God knew what would happen in advance and rigged the system.
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

21st December 2005, 09:16 AM	#25
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,516	Originally Posted by Iamme 1. It helped to determine if man was going to do things the way man wants, or if man is going to do what God wants. So... how did we have free will without knowledge of good and evil ? Quote: 3. God created an angel called Lucifer. Lucifer, up in heaven already determined Lucifer was going to do things Lucifer's way. God gave him the boot. Lucifer became the snake, Satan, the devil. God didn't create the devil. Lucifer created the devil inside hisself. Woah, the bibble doesn't mention Lucifer, only the serpent. Though one can interpret it as Lucifer, it isn't mentionned.
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

21st December 2005, 09:18 AM	#26
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,516	Originally Posted by KingMerv00 If God really didn't know the answer, why not just put a simple, non-magical tree in the Garden of Eden and tell Adam and Eve not to eat its fruit. That way, if they did, you wouldn't curse ALL OF CREATION FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!! This brings up another point. If God saw that his creation was flawed, why did he tell them to "be fruitful and multiply" instead of scrapping the design and coming up with a new model ?
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

21st December 2005, 09:21 AM	#27
Morrison's Lament Sardonic Pessimist Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Berlin (and Reykjavik, soon) Posts: 282	Belz...: Clearly, God works for Microsoft. --- G.
	__________________ "A little poison now and then: that maketh pleasant dreams. And much poison at last for a pleasant death." - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche 'Thus Spake Zarathustra'

21st December 2005, 09:22 AM	#28
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,462	Originally Posted by Tricky In the animal kingdom, there are creatures which ... exhibit envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed and sloth (not sure about pride). You've obviously not spent a lot of time with a cat.
	__________________ Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Take his fish away and tell him he's lucky just to be alive, and he'll figure out how to catch another one for you to take tomorrow. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

21st December 2005, 09:25 AM	#29
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Well, I have an example of pride and gluttony amoung animals right here. It's an article about a python in the Florida Everglades exploding after trying to eat an aligator which appearantly didn't agree with it. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...eatsgator.html You were warned.

21st December 2005, 09:38 AM	#30
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Originally Posted by Belz... This brings up another point. If God saw that his creation was flawed, why did he tell them to "be fruitful and multiply" instead of scrapping the design and coming up with a new model ? Adam 2.0 would not be so stupid as to disobey an all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing creator.
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

21st December 2005, 09:39 AM	#31
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,069	I was thinking the other day as I was listening to Alanis Morrisette. If masturbation is a sin, why did God make it feel so good? All that does is tempt us. So much for "lead us not unto temptation..." But I was also thinking about answers. For example, maybe it would be argued that because we have free will, he wants us to chose not to sin. But that doesn't really explain why masturbation has to be pleasurable. Smashing my hand with a sledgehammer might not feel good, but I certainly have the ability to chose to do it, and the fact that I am not tempted to do it doesn't compromise my free will at all. Alternatively, some might argue that not all things that feel good are good for you. For example, too much food will lead to health problems, and alcoholism is a big problem, too. My answer would be, though, that these are examples of problems of excess, not in the things themselves. Food itself is not bad for you, and is required for living. TOO MUCH food is a different story. Similarly, moderate alcohol is not a problem at all. In the same way, it is possible to overdo it on masturbation, too, as it becomes such an obsession that it harms social interactions (a caller on Talk Sex with Sue Johannson once claimed he masturbated 12 times a day; there's a concern there...) So if this is the argument, then shouldn't the sin be EXCESSIVENESS, and not masturbation? I don't understand it. It doesn't hurt others, not harmful to one's self (unless massively excessive, which few do), and feels good. Why would God make it this way and then have it be a sin? It doesn't make sense. (note - as a theological question; the issue of it not actually being God calling it a sin but just religious people using it to control the masses aside)
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

21st December 2005, 05:40 PM	#32
Marc L Thread Killer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,743	Originally Posted by kuroyume0161 According to the Bible (Genesis), God created humans as perfect (without sin). It was the act of eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge... Just a minor point. I saw someone else say this in a later post, which is why I'm bringing it up. It wasn't the Tree of Knowledge, it was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Why the distinction? With knowledge alone, I can type a sentence, turn on a computer, things like that. Since knowledge is gained through experience, there'd be no need for such a tree to exist. One millisecond after Adam's creation, he had knowledge. Not much, granted, but he still had knowledge. What he didn't have was the knowledge of right and wrong. In other words, he had to depend utterly on God to tell him how he was supposed to behave-just like a child. Upon eating the fruit, Adam and Eve were suddenly able to judge for themselves what was good and what was evil-hence their immediate covering of their bodies. Before they ate the fruit, nakedness wasn't bad, afterwards (for whatever reason), they thought it was. Yes, I know, I'm nitpicking a fictional story, but I personally feel that it's important to know what it is you're arguing against before you start arguing about it. Marc
Marc L Thread Killer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,743

21st December 2005, 05:50 PM	#33
yinyinwang Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Deep in hell Posts: 603	Originally Posted by kuroyume0161 According to the Bible (Genesis), God created humans as perfect (without sin). It was the act of eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge prompted by the serpent that introduced sin (original sin - id est: knowledge). Obviously, the 'tree of knowledge' and fruit thereof are metaphors. I think that the more pressing question, which relates to yours, is this: Why did God allow his untarnished pinnacles of creation to be tempted into sin in the first place? This relates back to the problem of free will. Was free will part of the perfection or was it introduced by the act of sin? Could beings 'without sin' have free will? After that, I'll need a beer... Lets imagine god made some perfect DNA and someone put sin into it later. But why didn't god undo the change afterward?
	__________________ Hell for mind is heaven for mindless My web pages: http://wayofnature.sunhi.org

22nd December 2005, 10:46 AM	#34
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Originally Posted by kuroyume0161 According to the Bible (Genesis), God created humans as perfect (without sin). It was the act of eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge prompted by the serpent that introduced sin (original sin - id est: knowledge). Obviously, the 'tree of knowledge' and fruit thereof are metaphors. Surely, according to that narrative, the first sin was simply the disobedient choice, rather any kind of knowledge as such?
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940

22nd December 2005, 06:31 PM	#35
stamenflicker Muse Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Tennessee Posts: 869	Originally Posted by ceo_esq Surely, according to that narrative, the first sin was simply the disobedient choice, rather any kind of knowledge as such? But how do you know disobedience is a bad thing if you have no concept of bad? Again, this contradiction was placed on purpose. It's a pretty wise contradiction and a good teaching tool imho. Flick