Do you feel persecuted by any present-day religions?

DoubtingStephen · 22nd December 2005, 08:50 PM

Are you of the opinion that any present day religions persecute you, try to harm you, or lobby against your civil rights?

If yes to the above, how does this affect you in your day to day life?

Dogdoctor · 22nd December 2005, 09:51 PM

Yeah I am persecuted by the Eastramanian Holly Rollers. Specifically the Saint Mattress Church and Reverend Pillow. Every morning they conspire to keep me from waking up. Just kidding . This is an important topic but I don't feel persecuted. Do you?

thaiboxerken · 22nd December 2005, 09:54 PM

Christians. They have stopped me from marrying other men. And no, I'm not homosexual, but I'd like the option regardless.

Ragutis · 22nd December 2005, 09:55 PM

I don't feel persecuted or harmed really, and my civil rights ATM are in no worse shape than any other lower middle class straight white guy. Other demographics are having a much harder time then little ol' agnostic/atheist me.

However, the fundies are gaining power and I see Dominionism to one extent or another very possibly becoming a serious factor in American politics in the not so distant future. People are already showing that their personal religious convictions are much more important factors in deciding who to vote for than the overall good of the nation. How close to their Christian Nation will they get? How bad will it be for the rest of us? How will they act towards secular nations or those of a different faith? Who knows, but the scale goes from about the same as now all the way to nucular armageddon in an attempt to trigger the Rapture.

I don't quite see a Heinlein-ian Nehemiah Scudder theocracy happening soon, but "If this goes on"

I'll pick myself a nice secular European country to move to and lament what happened to the founding fathers' grand experiment.

Complexity · 22nd December 2005, 09:59 PM

Yes, most of them.

They insist on trying to impose their views on others by using governments as clubs.

I'm gay and live in the United States. Nuff said.

username · 22nd December 2005, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen

Are you of the opinion that any present day religions persecute you, try to harm you, or lobby against your civil rights?

If yes to the above, how does this affect you in your day to day life?

Well, living in the US there is only one religion that has any political weight and that is xianity. It isn't that there aren't other religions out there whose adherants would like to control my mind and body, it is simply that where I live there are none other than xianity that have any political power.

This is not to bash xians, I know many that I really like and are quality folk. This is only to say that at the national political level there are xians trying to prevent science being taught by public schools to my kids, do away with civil liberties in the name of 'holiness', codify predjudice against folks who don't regard penis-vagina as the ultimate combo as well as folks who choose to intoxicate themselves with something other than alcohol and other nonsense.

How is my life affected by this? Honestly, it isn't as I don't look to xianity or government for permission on how to live my life and I am intelligent (I hope) enough to know how to exist under the radar in the ways I choose to ignore both.

One day I may need to become a rocket launcher carrying 'terrorist' in order to live free, for now I just choose to ignore the religionists and government and am able to get away with it.

DoubtingStephen · 23rd December 2005, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Complexity

Yes, most of them.

They insist on trying to impose their views on others by using governments as clubs.

I'm gay and live in the United States. Nuff said.

Indeed! I'm in the very same situation. I have a husband, but persons claiming to represent the dominant religion in my country are constantly trying to prevent us from obtaining the same legal rights as heterosexual couples.

Individual people that I know who are afflicted with religious beliefs are quite often very pleasant, but as a movement Christianity in America has become spiteful, combative, and very unpleasant.

I wonder if many non-gay Americans feel threatened yet?

Starrman · 23rd December 2005, 06:54 AM

On a daily basis I hear talk of god, prayer, miracles, angels and other religous stuff. But any attempt to talk of them skeptically with believers is treated as not only a social sin, but as an indication that I am immorral or less of a person than the faithful. What does it say of the strength of religion's argument that those who support it are so afraid and angry to openly discuss it?

Lisa Simpson · 23rd December 2005, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen

I wonder if many non-gay Americans feel threatened yet?

Hmmm...yes and no. My way of life isn't terribly threatened, since I'm straight. However, I fear the religious right is gaining power.

I do not volunteer the information that I am an atheist. If someone asks, I will usually respond that I am a Buddhist, since most Christians don't know that Buddhism, as a religion, is without gods. I don't wear my FSM t-shirt, nor my Apathetic Agnostic t-shirt to the elementary school where I work. I don't want any kiddies' parents to complain that the noon-duty supervisor lady is leading the little darlings astray.

When my oldest son declared himself to be an atheist (he was in the seventh grade at the time) I told him to be careful who he said that to. He's probably not in much physical danger, since he's 6'2", but I worry that one of his teachers may hold it against him.

It probably doesn't help that we live in Orange County, CA--the righthand most notch in the Bible belt.

slingblade · 23rd December 2005, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen

Individual people that I know who are afflicted with religious beliefs are quite often very pleasant, but as a movement Christianity in America has become spiteful, combative, and very unpleasant.

I wonder if many non-gay Americans feel threatened yet?

I am concerned, and my concern increases every year.
I used to be a thumping fundie, so I have personal experience with that mindset and many of its forms and manifestations. I'm now an atheist, and I do worry about how the fundamentalist agenda seems to garner more and more attention as years pass. For instance, the Intelligent Design discourse worries me, in that it's gotten enough attention to warrant the intervention of the court. Being a teacher in training, I have a personal connection to the issue.

Also, my sig line is a constant statement of my concern; it bugs me just that much.

DoubtingStephen · 23rd December 2005, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

When my oldest son declared himself to be an atheist (he was in the seventh grade at the time) I told him to be careful who he said that to. He's probably not in much physical danger, since he's 6'2", but I worry that one of his teachers may hold it against him.

It probably doesn't help that we live in Orange County, CA--the righthand most notch in the Bible belt.

Congratulations for your obvious success in raising a child with critical thinking skills.

I'm pleased to say that neither of my surviving children suffer from religious ideas. I constantly stressed with them as youngsters that it was important to question authority.

My first born unfortunately decided to end his life when there was an unfortunate conjunction of his emotional difficulties and a particularly nasty Jeebus cult he had fallen in with.

ceo_esq · 23rd December 2005, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

When my oldest son declared himself to be an atheist (he was in the seventh grade at the time) I told him to be careful who he said that to. He's probably not in much physical danger, since he's 6'2", but I worry that one of his teachers may hold it against him.

I think you are prudent to be concerned about the possibility that one of your son's teachers might hold his atheism against him.

However, my cursory research suggests a negligible known incidence of violent hate crimes directed at atheists in the United States, whereas it is certain that young men of your son's physique not infrequently fall victim to violent crimes perpetrated for other reasons. Accordingly, I find it interesting that you think your son is not in much physical danger specifically because he is 6'2", rather than for the more logically compelling reason that atheism is not the sort of thing known to place a person at undue risk of unlawful violence in this country.

wunky · 23rd December 2005, 12:40 PM

It is not so much any particular religion it is the indoctrination that I find bothersome. Society not allowing individuals to determine for themselves in what and who they believe or do not believe.

Dogdoctor · 23rd December 2005, 12:55 PM

Don't get upset at me for my thoughts but this is my non gay perspective on this and I don't mean to step on the toes of any gay people or offend anyone. The way I see it is marriage probably originated as a way to encourage/promote/reward reproduction and child care. OK you might disagree but this is what makes sense to me. Obviously gays aren't doing a lot of that. These days reproduction is no longer so necessary and perhaps it is time to reward couples who aren't reproducing and are doing something to control the ever expanding population. I don't really see the problem as a religious one although religion does seem to be a big stumbling block for gays. In my view it is a cultural problem which hides behind the facade of religion. So if you could remove religion there would still be a problem (societal prejudice)

Darat · 23rd December 2005, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen

Are you of the opinion that any present day religions persecute you, try to harm you, or lobby against your civil rights?

If yes to the above, how does this affect you in your day to day life?

Yes many Christian, Muslim and Sikh denominations. But the only ones that are ever in my face are the Christian groups.

Lisa Simpson · 23rd December 2005, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen

My first born unfortunately decided to end his life when there was an unfortunate conjunction of his emotional difficulties and a particularly nasty Jeebus cult he had fallen in with.

I am terribly sorry for your loss, DoubtingStephen.

Originally Posted by ceo_esq

I think you are prudent to be concerned about the possibility that one of your son's teachers might hold his atheism against him.

However, my cursory research suggests a negligible known incidence of violent hate crimes directed at atheists in the United States, whereas it is certain that young men of your son's physique not infrequently fall victim to violent crimes perpetrated for other reasons. Accordingly, I find it interesting that you think your son is not in much physical danger specifically because he is 6'2", rather than for the more logically compelling reason that atheism is not the sort of thing known to place a person at undue risk of unlawful violence in this country.

Obviously, it's not physical violence that I fear from his teachers, but prejudice in grading. The physical violence would be from overzealous classmates. My youngest son, who has not declared himself to be an atheist, but is very much a critical thinker, is quite small in stature. I worry more for his physical safety than Whyatica's.

Ducky · 23rd December 2005, 01:01 PM

Christian Fundamentalism is pretty offensive and overbearing.

Just read Kurious Kathy's posts.

Or don't. I can sum it up here:

JEEBUS! HELLFIRE!

There you go. Multiply that by 9000 and you have a kurious kathy post.

Pretty obnoxious.

Ducky · 23rd December 2005, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen

Congratulations for your obvious success in raising a child with critical thinking skills.

I'm pleased to say that neither of my surviving children suffer from religious ideas. I constantly stressed with them as youngsters that it was important to question authority.

My first born unfortunately decided to end his life when there was an unfortunate conjunction of his emotional difficulties and a particularly nasty Jeebus cult he had fallen in with.

My father was a suicide, and you have my sympathies. Very sorry for such a loss to your family.

kmortis · 23rd December 2005, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by slingblade

I am concerned, and my concern increases every year.
I used to be a thumping fundie, so I have personal experience with that mindset and many of its forms and manifestations. I'm now an atheist, and I do worry about how the fundamentalist agenda seems to garner more and more attention as years pass. For instance, the Intelligent Design discourse worries me, in that it's gotten enough attention to warrant the intervention of the court. Being a teacher in training, I have a personal connection to the issue.

Also, my sig line is a constant statement of my concern; it bugs me just that much.

"Blah blah blah fish cakes" --TWoP??

But seriously, folks.
I'm with you here. The ID doesn't concern me all that much. It's been tried (in both senses of that word) before and failed. This time, there was a judge who supports ID turning it down, so i'm not all that concerned. But, I, too have been a fundie. The mindset is...different. They are on God's side, and they have a mandate that they WILL win.

But, on the other hand, we have won some other victories. The SCOTUS seems to be favoring the agnostic world view on most issues, so we got that going for us....I'm cautious, but not worried. Of course, as has been pointed out, I'm also not gay, so I don't directly see the crap you guys (and gals) go through.

kmortis · 23rd December 2005, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by fowlsound

Christian Fundamentalism is pretty offensive and overbearing.

Just read Kurious Kathy's posts.

Or don't. I can sum it up here:

JEEBUS! HELLFIRE!

There you go. Multiply that by 9000 and you have a kurious kathy post.

Pretty obnoxious.

Hey, Fowl, you seem to be trying to say something here, but it's not quite clear...is there something troubling you?

Ducky · 23rd December 2005, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by kmortis

Hey, Fowl, you seem to be trying to say something here, but it's not quite clear...is there something troubling you?

I tend to mince words and be rather blurry with my language, don't I?

Ok let me be perfectly clear:

I hate fundies.

DoubtingStephen · 23rd December 2005, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Dogdoctor

Don't get upset at me for my thoughts but this is my non gay perspective on this and I don't mean to step on the toes of any gay people or offend anyone. The way I see it is marriage probably originated as a way to encourage/promote/reward reproduction and child care. OK you might disagree but this is what makes sense to me. Obviously gays aren't doing a lot of that. These days reproduction is no longer so necessary and perhaps it is time to reward couples who aren't reproducing and are doing something to control the ever expanding population. I don't really see the problem as a religious one although religion does seem to be a big stumbling block for gays. In my view it is a cultural problem which hides behind the facade of religion. So if you could remove religion there would still be a problem (societal prejudice)

I'm happy to agree not to get upset, and I do not feel oppressed by your comments!

Many heterosexual couples marry with the intention to have no children. Some other heterosexual couples might wish to have children, but are unable to do so for medical reasons. So the argument that marriage exists solely to support and promote procreation fails immediately. I never hear any Fundamentalist Christians suggesting that heterosexual couples wishing to marry must first pass fertility tests, or pledge to have a minimum number of children. Well there is the Catholic Church, but anyway.

I certainly do agree with you that in many cases religion is used as an excuse to mask what is really simply prejudice. This seems to be a primary function of many religions.

Just as religion is now used to thinly veil hatred for gay people, it was previously used, within my memory, to promote racism. One might raise a reasonable argument that it is still used to justify racism, and not just one religion.

I think that, if it were to happen, the abandonment of anti-gay prejudice by religions and religious leaders would tend to work toward the abandonment of the nderlying prejudice which certainly does exist.

I think that Aldous Huxley was right on the money in Ape and Essence when he made up the chant "Church and State, greed and hate, two baboons in one supreme gorilla".

kmortis · 23rd December 2005, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by fowlsound

I tend to mince words and be rather blurry with my language, don't I?

Ok let me be perfectly clear:

I hate fundies.

Oooo...Ok. I was going to blame it on the gyros I had for lunch.

Do you feel oppressed by them?

(this is what, in the "indusrty", is called a "softball question". Let's watch as Fowlsound hits it out of the park)

Ducky · 23rd December 2005, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by kmortis

Oooo...Ok. I was going to blame it on the gyros I had for lunch.

Do you feel oppressed by them?

(this is what, in the "indusrty", is called a "softball question". Let's watch as Fowlsound hits it out of the park)

I feel enraged and opressed when anyone could possibly think that they have a rock solid metaphysical answer to everything and feel the need to pound it down the throats of everyone around them.

Let's get one thing clear:

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR GOD OR RELIGIOUS BELIEF.

This is why it is faith.

Without any evidence to support a position, you are meandering into what is known as "a gray area." Which means to shove your myths down the throat of someone else, and to look down upon them and condemn them to punishments after death because they do not agree with you is at the very least rude, and at it's worst causes people to FLY PLANES INTO SKYSCRAPERS. LISTEN UP YOU XIAN FUNDIES: YOU USE EXACTLY THE SAME LANGUAGE AS EXTREMIST MUSLIM TERRORISTS!

Get it straight folks: YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY RELIGION OUT THERE, WHATEVER YOU ARE. Be respectful of everyone else's beliefs, and do not preach at them.

(that out of the park, kmortis?)

Dogdoctor · 23rd December 2005, 01:32 PM

Quote:

So the argument that marriage exists solely to support and promote procreation fails immediately

I never said it exists for that purpose I said it originated for that purpose. Being a societal tradition it is passed on monkey see, monkey do (no offense to TM) for generations regardless of it's value.

supercorgi · 23rd December 2005, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by fowlsound

I feel enraged and opressed when anyone could possibly think that they have a rock solid metaphysical answer to everything and feel the need to pound it down the throats of everyone around them.

I'm with Fowlsound on this. I feel opressed by any dogmatic judgemental mindset. By people who self-righteously proclaim that their way/belief is the only RIGHT way/belief and that everyone else is mistaken/damned because they don't toe the party line. Unfortunately, this mindset is most often seen in the very religious (of any religion).

Part of my movement towards atheism was my interest in Anthropology and my fascination with other cultures. When presented with the amazing diversity of beliefs that exist in the world, all of them perfectly valid to their believers, anyone who claimed that thiers was the "ONE, TRUE BELIEF" just seemed amazingly arrogant. And intolerant. Believe what you want but don't try to impose your beliefs on me. Respect my rights as an individual to decide for myself what is best for me. Don't restrict my world based on your personal criteria!

DoubtingStephen · 23rd December 2005, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Dogdoctor

I never said it exists for that purpose I said it originated for that purpose. Being a societal tradition it is passed on monkey see, monkey do (no offense to TM) for generations regardless of it's value.

It seems we agree completely on that point. I had not intended to attribute any views to you that originated from other people.

kmortis · 23rd December 2005, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by fowlsound

I feel enraged and opressed when anyone could possibly think that they have a rock solid metaphysical answer to everything and feel the need to pound it down the throats of everyone around them.

Let's get one thing clear:

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR GOD OR RELIGIOUS BELIEF.

This is why it is faith.

Without any evidence to support a position, you are meandering into what is known as "a gray area." Which means to shove your myths down the throat of someone else, and to look down upon them and condemn them to punishments after death because they do not agree with you is at the very least rude, and at it's worst causes people to FLY PLANES INTO SKYSCRAPERS. LISTEN UP YOU XIAN FUNDIES: YOU USE EXACTLY THE SAME LANGUAGE AS EXTREMIST MUSLIM TERRORISTS!

Get it straight folks: YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY RELIGION OUT THERE, WHATEVER YOU ARE. Be respectful of everyone else's beliefs, and do not preach at them.

(that out of the park, kmortis?)

very nice. we'll clean it up in post-production. Ok, that's a cut. Get the camera and crew over to the Taco Empire film in the other forum

Elind · 23rd December 2005, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen

Are you of the opinion that any present day religions persecute you, try to harm you, or lobby against your civil rights?

If yes to the above, how does this affect you in your day to day life?

I can't run for any public office with honesty. Is that good enough for you?

Loon · 23rd December 2005, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen

Are you of the opinion that any present day religions persecute you, try to harm you, or lobby against your civil rights?

If yes to the above, how does this affect you in your day to day life?

My own personal, day-to-day rights are under no immediate threat or challenge from any present day religion, nor am I personally being persecuted as a whole or as a part of any other group by any mainstream religion (or by any tiny cults, as far as I know).

But those same people who are not affecting me directly are doing and working for a lot of distasteful things. They are trying to preserve an archaic and unhelpful understanding of marriage. They are trying to sidestep science so they can feel better about their beliefs. They are trying to make a government ruled by those beliefs.

ceo_esq · 23rd December 2005, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

Obviously, it's not physical violence that I fear from his teachers, but prejudice in grading.

Of course, and it's an understandable concern.

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

The physical violence would be from overzealous classmates.

I realize that; however, there seems to be no evidence that someone's atheism risks provoking third parties to physical violence against him. Not in this society, at any rate. Hopefully, that is somewhat reassuring.

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

My youngest son, who has not declared himself to be an atheist, but is very much a critical thinker, is quite small in stature. I worry more for his physical safety than Whyatica's.

Of course; you're his parent - but your worries don't rest on the fact that he is a critical thinker (whether or not a religious one), do they?

Lisa Simpson · 23rd December 2005, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by ceo_esq

Of course; you're his parent - but your worries don't rest on the fact that he is a critical thinker (whether or not a religious one), do they?

To a certain extent, yes. Some of my worry (he will start middle school next fall) is just that he is small for his age. He took after my short, stumpy side of the family, not hubby's Viking lineage. But some of my concerns do stem from his being a critical thinker. A fellow student got mad when he tried to explain a schoolyard "paranormal" event (it was the lifting of a person with the fingertips). We have all seen here how closely held some beliefs can be. I am afraid that his speaking up about critical thinking may lead to bullying.

And worrying about my kids comes with the territory.

slingblade · 23rd December 2005, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by kmortis

"Blah blah blah fish cakes" --TWoP??

I happen to worship over at TelevisionWithoutPity.com, the place that puts the snark in TV. Tubey is my Gawd <--note spooferrific spelling.

You're probably right about ID, but other acronyms, like NCLB, already have me jumping through hoops....so, one is concerned. Not panicked, not freaked, just concerned.

clarsct · 23rd December 2005, 10:23 PM

Hmmmmmmmm.

" 'Elp 'Elp, I'm bein' Oppressed!"

Nyah. Not as of the moment. I'm 6'7", and, akin to Lisa's Viking, I usually don't have too many problems when I spout off my beliefs.

Yeah, Fundys piss me off, too. Who DON'T they piss off? It seems to be their lot in life. But I seldom have one get 'in my face', so to speak.

I am rather worried about the Fundy movement in Politics. Claiming atheism is political suicide, but I might do it if it got some news coverage.

As far as my Civil Rights go, we're doing ok. But I am keeping an eye on them, as it were. The Dover Penn trial gives me hope. The re-establishment of the Patriot Act does not. The idea that the FCC can control what I watch does not. I'm sorry, but this is a hot-button issue with me. F'kin censors...even here. *sigh*

My sig is a paraphrasing of a chapter in the Dune series that I had been reading before I started posting here. Yes, it expresses my concerns about the way we are moving in this country. But I'm not quite oppressed yet. If Pat Robertson is elected President, I might go see how Australia is to live in.

Dogdoctor · 23rd December 2005, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Yeah, Fundys piss me off, too. Who DON'T they piss off?

Me that's who.

Gulliamo · 24th December 2005, 08:53 PM

Persecuted? That may be a bit strong but I do feel threatened, belittled, cheated, and restricted.

Elind · 24th December 2005, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Yeah, Fundys piss me off, too. Who DON'T they piss off?

Originally Posted by Dogdoctor

Me that's who.

OK, they piss me off only some of the time, when we cross paths or I listen to their rants direct at me.

Is that what you meant, or do you like being told you are going to burn in hell, however stupid you know the comment to be?

Dogdoctor · 24th December 2005, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Elind

OK, they piss me off only some of the time, when we cross paths or I listen to their rants direct at me.

Is that what you meant, or do you like being told you are going to burn in hell, however stupid you know the comment to be?

I have no feelings of animosity toward fundies. They are human. Humans make mistakes. They generally want to do something they view as good. Not like a scammer who wants to rip you off or a criminal that wants to steal from you. They are worried that you will suffer and want to help. If I were a fundy I would be out trying to save souls, it is the logical and humane thing to do if you believe what they believe.

UrsulaV · 25th December 2005, 05:45 AM

"Persecuted" is a loaded word. I roll my eyes when some Christians in this country claim to be persecuted the minute some organization doesn't immediately cave to their whim--obviously they've forgotten what a good 'ol fashion lions-at-the-Colloseum-style persecution is like!

On that level, since what's sauce for the goose, etc, I'm not persecuted, and in fact, I doubt too many people in this country are actively persecuted by any religious group. (There's probably a few, mind you.)

I am often annoyed by religious groups, I detest a great many of their views, I fear them in politics--but "persecuted"...nah, not so much. They vex me, as Khan would say.

Moon-Spinner · 25th December 2005, 07:26 AM

Christians are ruining my ability to enjoy Christmas!

But seriously folks, the most hot topic button for me is how religion (read: Christians) are gaining political momentum, and what this could mean down the road, not just for atheists, agnostics, but for people of all faiths, including Christians. People who try to tear down the wall separating church and state truly just don’t get it, they all think that it will be their beliefs that will be the dominating system, and don’t realize how many differing beliefs there are even just in one major religion.

I can understand that as knowledge moves forward, they may feel like their world (what they believe) is shrinking. Possibly they don’t know history, and know what kind of persecution can result when a state is run by religion, or maybe they DO know history and would like to be the ones doing the persecuting.

I live in a county that places a high priority on education, and there isn’t any fear of any religion trying to get their claws into the education system here, so at least that concern isn’t knocking at my doorstep.

22nd December 2005, 08:50 PM	#1
DoubtingStephen Queer Propagandist Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,548	Do you feel persecuted by any present-day religions? Are you of the opinion that any present day religions persecute you, try to harm you, or lobby against your civil rights? If yes to the above, how does this affect you in your day to day life?

22nd December 2005, 09:51 PM	#2
Dogdoctor Canis Doctorius Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pacific Ocean Posts: 14,279	Yeah I am persecuted by the Eastramanian Holly Rollers. Specifically the Saint Mattress Church and Reverend Pillow. Every morning they conspire to keep me from waking up. Just kidding . This is an important topic but I don't feel persecuted. Do you?
	__________________

22nd December 2005, 09:54 PM	#3
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,963	Christians. They have stopped me from marrying other men. And no, I'm not homosexual, but I'd like the option regardless.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

22nd December 2005, 09:55 PM	#4
Ragutis Student Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 43	I don't feel persecuted or harmed really, and my civil rights ATM are in no worse shape than any other lower middle class straight white guy. Other demographics are having a much harder time then little ol' agnostic/atheist me. However, the fundies are gaining power and I see Dominionism to one extent or another very possibly becoming a serious factor in American politics in the not so distant future. People are already showing that their personal religious convictions are much more important factors in deciding who to vote for than the overall good of the nation. How close to their Christian Nation will they get? How bad will it be for the rest of us? How will they act towards secular nations or those of a different faith? Who knows, but the scale goes from about the same as now all the way to nucular armageddon in an attempt to trigger the Rapture. I don't quite see a Heinlein-ian Nehemiah Scudder theocracy happening soon, but "If this goes on" I'll pick myself a nice secular European country to move to and lament what happened to the founding fathers' grand experiment.
Ragutis Student Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 43	__________________ Aborigine: "If I did not know of God or sin, would I go to hell?" Missionary: "No, not if you did not know." Aborigine: "So, why did you tell me?"

22nd December 2005, 09:59 PM	#5
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Yes, most of them. They insist on trying to impose their views on others by using governments as clubs. I'm gay and live in the United States. Nuff said.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

22nd December 2005, 10:12 PM	#6
username Muse Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 837	Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen Are you of the opinion that any present day religions persecute you, try to harm you, or lobby against your civil rights? If yes to the above, how does this affect you in your day to day life? Well, living in the US there is only one religion that has any political weight and that is xianity. It isn't that there aren't other religions out there whose adherants would like to control my mind and body, it is simply that where I live there are none other than xianity that have any political power. This is not to bash xians, I know many that I really like and are quality folk. This is only to say that at the national political level there are xians trying to prevent science being taught by public schools to my kids, do away with civil liberties in the name of 'holiness', codify predjudice against folks who don't regard penis-vagina as the ultimate combo as well as folks who choose to intoxicate themselves with something other than alcohol and other nonsense. How is my life affected by this? Honestly, it isn't as I don't look to xianity or government for permission on how to live my life and I am intelligent (I hope) enough to know how to exist under the radar in the ways I choose to ignore both. One day I may need to become a rocket launcher carrying 'terrorist' in order to live free, for now I just choose to ignore the religionists and government and am able to get away with it.
username Muse Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 837	__________________ "El sueno de la razon produce monstruos," or, "The sleep of reason produces monsters." -social critic / artist Goya

23rd December 2005, 06:41 AM	#7
DoubtingStephen Queer Propagandist Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,548	Originally Posted by Complexity Yes, most of them. They insist on trying to impose their views on others by using governments as clubs. I'm gay and live in the United States. Nuff said. Indeed! I'm in the very same situation. I have a husband, but persons claiming to represent the dominant religion in my country are constantly trying to prevent us from obtaining the same legal rights as heterosexual couples. Individual people that I know who are afflicted with religious beliefs are quite often very pleasant, but as a movement Christianity in America has become spiteful, combative, and very unpleasant. I wonder if many non-gay Americans feel threatened yet?

23rd December 2005, 06:54 AM	#8
Starrman Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,173	On a daily basis I hear talk of god, prayer, miracles, angels and other religous stuff. But any attempt to talk of them skeptically with believers is treated as not only a social sin, but as an indication that I am immorral or less of a person than the faithful. What does it say of the strength of religion's argument that those who support it are so afraid and angry to openly discuss it?
	__________________ --------------------------------------------- Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. --Superintendent Chalmers

23rd December 2005, 07:07 AM	#9
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,057	Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen I wonder if many non-gay Americans feel threatened yet? Hmmm...yes and no. My way of life isn't terribly threatened, since I'm straight. However, I fear the religious right is gaining power. I do not volunteer the information that I am an atheist. If someone asks, I will usually respond that I am a Buddhist, since most Christians don't know that Buddhism, as a religion, is without gods. I don't wear my FSM t-shirt, nor my Apathetic Agnostic t-shirt to the elementary school where I work. I don't want any kiddies' parents to complain that the noon-duty supervisor lady is leading the little darlings astray. When my oldest son declared himself to be an atheist (he was in the seventh grade at the time) I told him to be careful who he said that to. He's probably not in much physical danger, since he's 6'2", but I worry that one of his teachers may hold it against him. It probably doesn't help that we live in Orange County, CA--the righthand most notch in the Bible belt.
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

23rd December 2005, 07:44 AM	#10
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen Individual people that I know who are afflicted with religious beliefs are quite often very pleasant, but as a movement Christianity in America has become spiteful, combative, and very unpleasant. I wonder if many non-gay Americans feel threatened yet? I am concerned, and my concern increases every year. I used to be a thumping fundie, so I have personal experience with that mindset and many of its forms and manifestations. I'm now an atheist, and I do worry about how the fundamentalist agenda seems to garner more and more attention as years pass. For instance, the Intelligent Design discourse worries me, in that it's gotten enough attention to warrant the intervention of the court. Being a teacher in training, I have a personal connection to the issue. Also, my sig line is a constant statement of my concern; it bugs me just that much.
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Last edited by slingblade; 23rd December 2005 at 07:48 AM.

23rd December 2005, 07:50 AM	#11
DoubtingStephen Queer Propagandist Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,548	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson When my oldest son declared himself to be an atheist (he was in the seventh grade at the time) I told him to be careful who he said that to. He's probably not in much physical danger, since he's 6'2", but I worry that one of his teachers may hold it against him. It probably doesn't help that we live in Orange County, CA--the righthand most notch in the Bible belt. Congratulations for your obvious success in raising a child with critical thinking skills. I'm pleased to say that neither of my surviving children suffer from religious ideas. I constantly stressed with them as youngsters that it was important to question authority. My first born unfortunately decided to end his life when there was an unfortunate conjunction of his emotional difficulties and a particularly nasty Jeebus cult he had fallen in with.

23rd December 2005, 12:35 PM	#12
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson When my oldest son declared himself to be an atheist (he was in the seventh grade at the time) I told him to be careful who he said that to. He's probably not in much physical danger, since he's 6'2", but I worry that one of his teachers may hold it against him. I think you are prudent to be concerned about the possibility that one of your son's teachers might hold his atheism against him. However, my cursory research suggests a negligible known incidence of violent hate crimes directed at atheists in the United States, whereas it is certain that young men of your son's physique not infrequently fall victim to violent crimes perpetrated for other reasons. Accordingly, I find it interesting that you think your son is not in much physical danger specifically because he is 6'2", rather than for the more logically compelling reason that atheism is not the sort of thing known to place a person at undue risk of unlawful violence in this country.
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940

23rd December 2005, 12:40 PM	#13
wunky gun-toting weasel Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Somewhere dealing with a looming or a barking problem. Posts: 1,096	It is not so much any particular religion it is the indoctrination that I find bothersome. Society not allowing individuals to determine for themselves in what and who they believe or do not believe.

23rd December 2005, 12:55 PM	#14
Dogdoctor Canis Doctorius Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pacific Ocean Posts: 14,279	Don't get upset at me for my thoughts but this is my non gay perspective on this and I don't mean to step on the toes of any gay people or offend anyone. The way I see it is marriage probably originated as a way to encourage/promote/reward reproduction and child care. OK you might disagree but this is what makes sense to me. Obviously gays aren't doing a lot of that. These days reproduction is no longer so necessary and perhaps it is time to reward couples who aren't reproducing and are doing something to control the ever expanding population. I don't really see the problem as a religious one although religion does seem to be a big stumbling block for gays. In my view it is a cultural problem which hides behind the facade of religion. So if you could remove religion there would still be a problem (societal prejudice)
	__________________

23rd December 2005, 12:58 PM	#15
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,770	Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen Are you of the opinion that any present day religions persecute you, try to harm you, or lobby against your civil rights? If yes to the above, how does this affect you in your day to day life? Yes many Christian, Muslim and Sikh denominations. But the only ones that are ever in my face are the Christian groups.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

23rd December 2005, 01:00 PM	#16
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,057	Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen My first born unfortunately decided to end his life when there was an unfortunate conjunction of his emotional difficulties and a particularly nasty Jeebus cult he had fallen in with. I am terribly sorry for your loss, DoubtingStephen. Originally Posted by ceo_esq I think you are prudent to be concerned about the possibility that one of your son's teachers might hold his atheism against him. However, my cursory research suggests a negligible known incidence of violent hate crimes directed at atheists in the United States, whereas it is certain that young men of your son's physique not infrequently fall victim to violent crimes perpetrated for other reasons. Accordingly, I find it interesting that you think your son is not in much physical danger specifically because he is 6'2", rather than for the more logically compelling reason that atheism is not the sort of thing known to place a person at undue risk of unlawful violence in this country. Obviously, it's not physical violence that I fear from his teachers, but prejudice in grading. The physical violence would be from overzealous classmates. My youngest son, who has not declared himself to be an atheist, but is very much a critical thinker, is quite small in stature. I worry more for his physical safety than Whyatica's.
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

23rd December 2005, 01:01 PM	#17
Ducky Titanium Puprhero Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mayor of your front lawn. Posts: 12,296	Christian Fundamentalism is pretty offensive and overbearing. Just read Kurious Kathy's posts. Or don't. I can sum it up here: JEEBUS! HELLFIRE! There you go. Multiply that by 9000 and you have a kurious kathy post. Pretty obnoxious.

23rd December 2005, 01:02 PM	#18
Ducky Titanium Puprhero Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mayor of your front lawn. Posts: 12,296	Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen Congratulations for your obvious success in raising a child with critical thinking skills. I'm pleased to say that neither of my surviving children suffer from religious ideas. I constantly stressed with them as youngsters that it was important to question authority. My first born unfortunately decided to end his life when there was an unfortunate conjunction of his emotional difficulties and a particularly nasty Jeebus cult he had fallen in with. My father was a suicide, and you have my sympathies. Very sorry for such a loss to your family.

23rd December 2005, 01:04 PM	#19
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas Posts: 24,593	Originally Posted by slingblade I am concerned, and my concern increases every year. I used to be a thumping fundie, so I have personal experience with that mindset and many of its forms and manifestations. I'm now an atheist, and I do worry about how the fundamentalist agenda seems to garner more and more attention as years pass. For instance, the Intelligent Design discourse worries me, in that it's gotten enough attention to warrant the intervention of the court. Being a teacher in training, I have a personal connection to the issue. Also, my sig line is a constant statement of my concern; it bugs me just that much. "Blah blah blah fish cakes" --TWoP?? But seriously, folks. I'm with you here. The ID doesn't concern me all that much. It's been tried (in both senses of that word) before and failed. This time, there was a judge who supports ID turning it down, so i'm not all that concerned. But, I, too have been a fundie. The mindset is...different. They are on God's side, and they have a mandate that they WILL win. But, on the other hand, we have won some other victories. The SCOTUS seems to be favoring the agnostic world view on most issues, so we got that going for us....I'm cautious, but not worried. Of course, as has been pointed out, I'm also not gay, so I don't directly see the crap you guys (and gals) go through.
	__________________ -Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Monroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

23rd December 2005, 01:05 PM	#20
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas Posts: 24,593	Originally Posted by fowlsound Christian Fundamentalism is pretty offensive and overbearing. Just read Kurious Kathy's posts. Or don't. I can sum it up here: JEEBUS! HELLFIRE! There you go. Multiply that by 9000 and you have a kurious kathy post. Pretty obnoxious. Hey, Fowl, you seem to be trying to say something here, but it's not quite clear...is there something troubling you?
	__________________ -Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Monroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

23rd December 2005, 01:07 PM	#21
Ducky Titanium Puprhero Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mayor of your front lawn. Posts: 12,296	Originally Posted by kmortis Hey, Fowl, you seem to be trying to say something here, but it's not quite clear...is there something troubling you? I tend to mince words and be rather blurry with my language, don't I? Ok let me be perfectly clear: I hate fundies.

23rd December 2005, 01:12 PM	#22
DoubtingStephen Queer Propagandist Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,548	Originally Posted by Dogdoctor Don't get upset at me for my thoughts but this is my non gay perspective on this and I don't mean to step on the toes of any gay people or offend anyone. The way I see it is marriage probably originated as a way to encourage/promote/reward reproduction and child care. OK you might disagree but this is what makes sense to me. Obviously gays aren't doing a lot of that. These days reproduction is no longer so necessary and perhaps it is time to reward couples who aren't reproducing and are doing something to control the ever expanding population. I don't really see the problem as a religious one although religion does seem to be a big stumbling block for gays. In my view it is a cultural problem which hides behind the facade of religion. So if you could remove religion there would still be a problem (societal prejudice) I'm happy to agree not to get upset, and I do not feel oppressed by your comments! Many heterosexual couples marry with the intention to have no children. Some other heterosexual couples might wish to have children, but are unable to do so for medical reasons. So the argument that marriage exists solely to support and promote procreation fails immediately. I never hear any Fundamentalist Christians suggesting that heterosexual couples wishing to marry must first pass fertility tests, or pledge to have a minimum number of children. Well there is the Catholic Church, but anyway. I certainly do agree with you that in many cases religion is used as an excuse to mask what is really simply prejudice. This seems to be a primary function of many religions. Just as religion is now used to thinly veil hatred for gay people, it was previously used, within my memory, to promote racism. One might raise a reasonable argument that it is still used to justify racism, and not just one religion. I think that, if it were to happen, the abandonment of anti-gay prejudice by religions and religious leaders would tend to work toward the abandonment of the nderlying prejudice which certainly does exist. I think that Aldous Huxley was right on the money in Ape and Essence when he made up the chant "Church and State, greed and hate, two baboons in one supreme gorilla".
	__________________ God Hates Mixed Fibers God Hates Barbers God Hates Crustaceans

23rd December 2005, 01:16 PM	#23
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas Posts: 24,593	Originally Posted by fowlsound I tend to mince words and be rather blurry with my language, don't I? Ok let me be perfectly clear: I hate fundies. Oooo...Ok. I was going to blame it on the gyros I had for lunch. Do you feel oppressed by them? (this is what, in the "indusrty", is called a "softball question". Let's watch as Fowlsound hits it out of the park)
	__________________ -Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Monroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

23rd December 2005, 01:21 PM	#24
Ducky Titanium Puprhero Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mayor of your front lawn. Posts: 12,296	Originally Posted by kmortis Oooo...Ok. I was going to blame it on the gyros I had for lunch. Do you feel oppressed by them? (this is what, in the "indusrty", is called a "softball question". Let's watch as Fowlsound hits it out of the park) I feel enraged and opressed when anyone could possibly think that they have a rock solid metaphysical answer to everything and feel the need to pound it down the throats of everyone around them. Let's get one thing clear: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR GOD OR RELIGIOUS BELIEF. This is why it is faith. Without any evidence to support a position, you are meandering into what is known as "a gray area." Which means to shove your myths down the throat of someone else, and to look down upon them and condemn them to punishments after death because they do not agree with you is at the very least rude, and at it's worst causes people to FLY PLANES INTO SKYSCRAPERS. LISTEN UP YOU XIAN FUNDIES: YOU USE EXACTLY THE SAME LANGUAGE AS EXTREMIST MUSLIM TERRORISTS! Get it straight folks: YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY RELIGION OUT THERE, WHATEVER YOU ARE. Be respectful of everyone else's beliefs, and do not preach at them. (that out of the park, kmortis?)

23rd December 2005, 01:32 PM	#25
Dogdoctor Canis Doctorius Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pacific Ocean Posts: 14,279	Quote: So the argument that marriage exists solely to support and promote procreation fails immediately I never said it exists for that purpose I said it originated for that purpose. Being a societal tradition it is passed on monkey see, monkey do (no offense to TM) for generations regardless of it's value.
	__________________

23rd December 2005, 01:42 PM	#26
supercorgi Dog Everlasting Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: State of Confusion, Massachusetts, USA Posts: 2,525	Originally Posted by fowlsound I feel enraged and opressed when anyone could possibly think that they have a rock solid metaphysical answer to everything and feel the need to pound it down the throats of everyone around them. I'm with Fowlsound on this. I feel opressed by any dogmatic judgemental mindset. By people who self-righteously proclaim that their way/belief is the only RIGHT way/belief and that everyone else is mistaken/damned because they don't toe the party line. Unfortunately, this mindset is most often seen in the very religious (of any religion). Part of my movement towards atheism was my interest in Anthropology and my fascination with other cultures. When presented with the amazing diversity of beliefs that exist in the world, all of them perfectly valid to their believers, anyone who claimed that thiers was the "ONE, TRUE BELIEF" just seemed amazingly arrogant. And intolerant. Believe what you want but don't try to impose your beliefs on me. Respect my rights as an individual to decide for myself what is best for me. Don't restrict my world based on your personal criteria!
	__________________

23rd December 2005, 01:47 PM	#27
DoubtingStephen Queer Propagandist Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,548	Originally Posted by Dogdoctor I never said it exists for that purpose I said it originated for that purpose. Being a societal tradition it is passed on monkey see, monkey do (no offense to TM) for generations regardless of it's value. It seems we agree completely on that point. I had not intended to attribute any views to you that originated from other people.
	__________________ God Hates Mixed Fibers God Hates Barbers God Hates Crustaceans

23rd December 2005, 01:57 PM	#28
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas Posts: 24,593	Originally Posted by fowlsound I feel enraged and opressed when anyone could possibly think that they have a rock solid metaphysical answer to everything and feel the need to pound it down the throats of everyone around them. Let's get one thing clear: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR GOD OR RELIGIOUS BELIEF. This is why it is faith. Without any evidence to support a position, you are meandering into what is known as "a gray area." Which means to shove your myths down the throat of someone else, and to look down upon them and condemn them to punishments after death because they do not agree with you is at the very least rude, and at it's worst causes people to FLY PLANES INTO SKYSCRAPERS. LISTEN UP YOU XIAN FUNDIES: YOU USE EXACTLY THE SAME LANGUAGE AS EXTREMIST MUSLIM TERRORISTS! Get it straight folks: YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY RELIGION OUT THERE, WHATEVER YOU ARE. Be respectful of everyone else's beliefs, and do not preach at them. (that out of the park, kmortis?) very nice. we'll clean it up in post-production. Ok, that's a cut. Get the camera and crew over to the Taco Empire film in the other forum
	__________________ -Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Monroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

23rd December 2005, 02:00 PM	#29
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen Are you of the opinion that any present day religions persecute you, try to harm you, or lobby against your civil rights? If yes to the above, how does this affect you in your day to day life? I can't run for any public office with honesty. Is that good enough for you?

23rd December 2005, 04:11 PM	#30
Loon Med Student Roberts Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: in ur base, killin' ur d00dz Posts: 2,105	Originally Posted by DoubtingStephen Are you of the opinion that any present day religions persecute you, try to harm you, or lobby against your civil rights? If yes to the above, how does this affect you in your day to day life? My own personal, day-to-day rights are under no immediate threat or challenge from any present day religion, nor am I personally being persecuted as a whole or as a part of any other group by any mainstream religion (or by any tiny cults, as far as I know). But those same people who are not affecting me directly are doing and working for a lot of distasteful things. They are trying to preserve an archaic and unhelpful understanding of marriage. They are trying to sidestep science so they can feel better about their beliefs. They are trying to make a government ruled by those beliefs.
	__________________ Happiness is the worst teacher. Flush Bunk Forum WoW

23rd December 2005, 04:15 PM	#31
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson Obviously, it's not physical violence that I fear from his teachers, but prejudice in grading. Of course, and it's an understandable concern. Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson The physical violence would be from overzealous classmates. I realize that; however, there seems to be no evidence that someone's atheism risks provoking third parties to physical violence against him. Not in this society, at any rate. Hopefully, that is somewhat reassuring. Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson My youngest son, who has not declared himself to be an atheist, but is very much a critical thinker, is quite small in stature. I worry more for his physical safety than Whyatica's. Of course; you're his parent - but your worries don't rest on the fact that he is a critical thinker (whether or not a religious one), do they?
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940

23rd December 2005, 04:37 PM	#32
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,057	Originally Posted by ceo_esq Of course; you're his parent - but your worries don't rest on the fact that he is a critical thinker (whether or not a religious one), do they? To a certain extent, yes. Some of my worry (he will start middle school next fall) is just that he is small for his age. He took after my short, stumpy side of the family, not hubby's Viking lineage. But some of my concerns do stem from his being a critical thinker. A fellow student got mad when he tried to explain a schoolyard "paranormal" event (it was the lifting of a person with the fingertips). We have all seen here how closely held some beliefs can be. I am afraid that his speaking up about critical thinking may lead to bullying. And worrying about my kids comes with the territory.
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

23rd December 2005, 09:59 PM	#33
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Originally Posted by kmortis "Blah blah blah fish cakes" --TWoP?? I happen to worship over at TelevisionWithoutPity.com, the place that puts the snark in TV. Tubey is my Gawd <--note spooferrific spelling. You're probably right about ID, but other acronyms, like NCLB, already have me jumping through hoops....so, one is concerned. Not panicked, not freaked, just concerned.
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642

23rd December 2005, 10:23 PM	#34
clarsct Humor Impaired Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Cultural Desert Posts: 4,910	Hmmmmmmmm. " 'Elp 'Elp, I'm bein' Oppressed!" Nyah. Not as of the moment. I'm 6'7", and, akin to Lisa's Viking, I usually don't have too many problems when I spout off my beliefs. Yeah, Fundys piss me off, too. Who DON'T they piss off? It seems to be their lot in life. But I seldom have one get 'in my face', so to speak. I am rather worried about the Fundy movement in Politics. Claiming atheism is political suicide, but I might do it if it got some news coverage. As far as my Civil Rights go, we're doing ok. But I am keeping an eye on them, as it were. The Dover Penn trial gives me hope. The re-establishment of the Patriot Act does not. The idea that the FCC can control what I watch does not. I'm sorry, but this is a hot-button issue with me. F'kin censors...even here. sigh My sig is a paraphrasing of a chapter in the Dune series that I had been reading before I started posting here. Yes, it expresses my concerns about the way we are moving in this country. But I'm not quite oppressed yet. If Pat Robertson is elected President, I might go see how Australia is to live in.
	__________________ When Religion becomes State, and breaking the Law becomes Sin, then Dissenters will become Heretics. Oh nonsense. Still not hugging you. -Kiless Forum Tosser and Skirt Chaser

23rd December 2005, 11:10 PM	#35
Dogdoctor Canis Doctorius Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pacific Ocean Posts: 14,279	Quote: Yeah, Fundys piss me off, too. Who DON'T they piss off? Me that's who.
	__________________