Anyone see "Munich"?

Tmy · 26th December 2005, 09:03 AM

I was wondering if anyone got to see the movie. Was it bias? Any reason for people to be offended? Is it any good or accurate?

I remeber some History Channel show onhow the Mossad hunted the terrorists down. It was really interesting. They would post the guyz obituaries inthe paper BEFORE killing them. Total headgames with the terrorists. It also talked about the mistakes they made, and how some inncoent people were killed.

zenith-nadir · 26th December 2005, 09:28 AM

I am off work until wednesday for Jesus's birthday and plan to see it if time allows. So far it has been met with more praise than condemnation, even by some of the murdered athletes' widows.

I am old enough to remember watching it unfold on TV. I also remember that other Palestinian terrorists then hijacked a Lufthansa Boeing 727 over Turkey and demanded the release of the Palestinian terrorists held by Germany for the Munich massacre.

Germany did cave in and released the Palestinian "Munich massacre" terrorists.

{edited to add}

Here's an interesting thesis by the Marine Corps Command and Staff College regarding the Israeli response to the Munich massacre.

The Central Scrutinizer · 26th December 2005, 11:48 AM

Yes, I saw it yesterday. Two thumbs up! Very good. I had a few complaints with it, but mostly minor stuff. It won't be my best film of the year, but will almost certainly be in the top 10.

Like my friend said - both sides (Jew & Arab) are upset with Spielberg, so he must have done something right!

zenith-nadir · 26th December 2005, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Like my friend said - both sides (Jew & Arab) are upset with Spielberg, so he must have done something right!

All these "upset" people.....could you provide a link or two?

The Central Scrutinizer · 26th December 2005, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by zenith-nadir

All these "upset" people.....could you provide a link or two?

Just talking heads I've seen on the tube. No links.

Freakshow · 26th December 2005, 01:21 PM

Has Spielberg said anything about why he chose to portray this particular aspect of the situation? I believe he shows the assasinations afterwards, correct? Why did he make the choice to make the movie about that, as opposed to other aspects, such as the event itself? Or the planning and actions that led up to it?

I was just wondering, that's all. Anybody got a link to an interview where he discusses this?

The Central Scrutinizer · 26th December 2005, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Freakshow

Has Spielberg said anything about why he chose to portray this particular aspect of the situation? I believe he shows the assasinations afterwards, correct? Why did he make the choice to make the movie about that, as opposed to other aspects, such as the event itself? Or the planning and actions that led up to it?

I was just wondering, that's all. Anybody got a link to an interview where he discusses this?

No, I have not heard why he decided on this. However, it is based on a book, the name of which I don't recall, so maybe the book is only about the aftermath.

Freakshow · 26th December 2005, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

No, I have not heard why he decided on this. However, it is based on a book, the name of which I don't recall, so maybe the book is only about the aftermath.

Oh, interesting. I didn't know it was based on a book. I'll have to look into that. Thanks, CS.

Bob Klase · 26th December 2005, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Freakshow

Oh, interesting. I didn't know it was based on a book. I'll have to look into that. Thanks, CS.

The title of the book is 'Vengeance'. I remember reading it 20 years ago when it was first published. Haven't seen the movie yet.

patchbunny · 26th December 2005, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Freakshow

Has Spielberg said anything about why he chose to portray this particular aspect of the situation? I believe he shows the assasinations afterwards, correct? Why did he make the choice to make the movie about that, as opposed to other aspects, such as the event itself? Or the planning and actions that led up to it?

I was just wondering, that's all. Anybody got a link to an interview where he discusses this?

There's already a documentary that goes into the event itself, titled One Day In September. I've never seen a film on the actual assassinations that followed, so this (I think) is an original entry into that subject.

Kiless · 27th December 2005, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by patchbunny

There's already a documentary that goes into the event itself, titled One Day In September. I've never seen a film on the actual assassinations that followed, so this (I think) is an original entry into that subject.

Yes, that's what I watched when researching documentaries to teach to some upper-school students. So, I'll go see this film. I want to make my own mind up.

One interesting summation, The War on Munich - from Salon.com, by Michelle Goldberg:

"The same day, Variety editor Peter Bart published a dispatch about awards season campaigning. Noting that Spielberg was lying low, he wrote, "Having gone to such excruciating pains to explain that there is no 'right' and 'wrong' in the Middle East (thus adding to the film's exhaustive length) the filmmaker understandably wants to avoid the angst of the interview circuit." (Variety had already given the movie a scathing review.) The following day, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported on Ehud Danoch, Israel's consul general in Los Angeles, airing similar criticisms. "According to Danoch, throughout the film Spielberg equates the Mossad agents and the terrorists," Haaretz wrote, quoting him saying, "This is an incorrect moral equation. We in Israel know this. There is also a certain pretentiousness in attempting to treat a painful, decades-long conflict by means of quite superficial statements in a two and a half hour movie.
As the political attacks pile up, the real meaning of "Munich" -- a flawed but powerful and, yes, complex movie -- threatens to get lost amid all the huffing and bleating...
...But the political discussion around "Munich" has already been framed in a way that obscures the film itself."

I admit... I'm also going to see it as Eric Bana (Avner) is an Australian actor.

HarryKeogh · 27th December 2005, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Yes, I saw it yesterday. Two thumbs up!

If it's your review shouldn't it just be "thumbs up" instead of "two thumbs up"? Or do you have a co-host we don't know about?

The Central Scrutinizer · 27th December 2005, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by HarryKeogh

If it's your review shouldn't it just be "thumbs up" instead of "two thumbs up"? Or do you have a co-host we don't know about?

Yes, my friend is the co-host! But he doesn't post here, so I have to convey his review for him.

The Central Scrutinizer · 27th December 2005, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Kiless

I admit... I'm also going to see it as Eric Bana (Avner) is an Australian actor.

I thought it might be fun to cross Munich with The Hulk. Then, when the bad guys are shooting at Eric Bana, he could become the Hulk and squash them!

DaveW · 27th December 2005, 08:24 AM

Spielberg did a bit of an interview about "Munich" in a recent Time.

Magyar · 27th December 2005, 09:04 AM

Just a side note. There has been a movie made on this subject already.
I can't recall the name, but supposedly it is factually based on the leader
of the team who got recruded to Musad then quit, moved to NY and then went back to Israel. In the movie he was a captain(?) of some tank unit.

THe guy who played the lead was the guy who was Tony Montana's partner in Scarface.

Grammatron · 27th December 2005, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Magyar

Just a side note. There has been a movie made on this subject already.
I can't recall the name, but supposedly it is factually based on the leader
of the team who got recruded to Musad then quit, moved to NY and then went back to Israel. In the movie he was a captain(?) of some tank unit.

THe guy who played the lead was the guy who was Tony Montana's partner in Scarface.

You're thinking of Sword of Gideon (1986)

HeyLeroy · 27th December 2005, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Grammatron

You're thinking of Sword of Gideon (1986)

Grr, you beat me to it! I have the DVD, not a bad flick. I read Vengeance when it first came out. It was a really gripping read.

Garrette · 28th December 2005, 05:46 AM

I, too, read Vengeance about 20 years ago. I was impressed with the details the author revealed but also with his changing moral views.

iirc, he maintained his belief in the righteousness of accurately targeted retribution but became disgusted with the collateral damage Israel was willing to bear and very upset with the methods of the Mossad not only in dealing with the terrorists but in dealing with him and his agents.

Recommended read.

Jas · 28th December 2005, 11:06 AM

The movie doesn't open here until the 6th, I'm hoping to see it.

I read Vengeance some years back, though I should probably go back to it before seeing the movie.

Skeptic · 31st December 2005, 01:19 PM

The criticism of the movie is mostly based on the fact that it makes the mossad agents who got the Palestinian terrorists who killed the athletes have second thoughts, doubts, etc. I doubt this is intended to create a moral equivalence between the two. It seems to me Spielberg simply knows that simple characters, no matter how morally in the right, make for a boring movie.

26th December 2005, 09:03 AM	#1
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Anyone see "Munich"? I was wondering if anyone got to see the movie. Was it bias? Any reason for people to be offended? Is it any good or accurate? I remeber some History Channel show onhow the Mossad hunted the terrorists down. It was really interesting. They would post the guyz obituaries inthe paper BEFORE killing them. Total headgames with the terrorists. It also talked about the mistakes they made, and how some inncoent people were killed.
	__________________ "Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without." -shanek

26th December 2005, 09:28 AM	#2
zenith-nadir Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,500	I am off work until wednesday for Jesus's birthday and plan to see it if time allows. So far it has been met with more praise than condemnation, even by some of the murdered athletes' widows. I am old enough to remember watching it unfold on TV. I also remember that other Palestinian terrorists then hijacked a Lufthansa Boeing 727 over Turkey and demanded the release of the Palestinian terrorists held by Germany for the Munich massacre. Germany did cave in and released the Palestinian "Munich massacre" terrorists. {edited to add} Here's an interesting thesis by the Marine Corps Command and Staff College regarding the Israeli response to the Munich massacre.
	__________________ The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled. -- Plutarch Last edited by zenith-nadir; 26th December 2005 at 09:57 AM.

26th December 2005, 11:48 AM	#3
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,264	Yes, I saw it yesterday. Two thumbs up! Very good. I had a few complaints with it, but mostly minor stuff. It won't be my best film of the year, but will almost certainly be in the top 10. Like my friend said - both sides (Jew & Arab) are upset with Spielberg, so he must have done something right!
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

26th December 2005, 01:03 PM	#4
zenith-nadir Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,500	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer Like my friend said - both sides (Jew & Arab) are upset with Spielberg, so he must have done something right! All these "upset" people.....could you provide a link or two?
	__________________ The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled. -- Plutarch

26th December 2005, 01:04 PM	#5
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,264	Originally Posted by zenith-nadir All these "upset" people.....could you provide a link or two? Just talking heads I've seen on the tube. No links.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

26th December 2005, 01:21 PM	#6
Freakshow 526a0118ae8c43594f3cfdcabb3274ed Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,319	Has Spielberg said anything about why he chose to portray this particular aspect of the situation? I believe he shows the assasinations afterwards, correct? Why did he make the choice to make the movie about that, as opposed to other aspects, such as the event itself? Or the planning and actions that led up to it? I was just wondering, that's all. Anybody got a link to an interview where he discusses this?

26th December 2005, 01:37 PM	#7
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,264	Originally Posted by Freakshow Has Spielberg said anything about why he chose to portray this particular aspect of the situation? I believe he shows the assasinations afterwards, correct? Why did he make the choice to make the movie about that, as opposed to other aspects, such as the event itself? Or the planning and actions that led up to it? I was just wondering, that's all. Anybody got a link to an interview where he discusses this? No, I have not heard why he decided on this. However, it is based on a book, the name of which I don't recall, so maybe the book is only about the aftermath.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

26th December 2005, 01:42 PM	#8
Freakshow 526a0118ae8c43594f3cfdcabb3274ed Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,319	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer No, I have not heard why he decided on this. However, it is based on a book, the name of which I don't recall, so maybe the book is only about the aftermath. Oh, interesting. I didn't know it was based on a book. I'll have to look into that. Thanks, CS.

26th December 2005, 01:49 PM	#9
Bob Klase Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Largo, FL Posts: 2,833	Originally Posted by Freakshow Oh, interesting. I didn't know it was based on a book. I'll have to look into that. Thanks, CS. The title of the book is 'Vengeance'. I remember reading it 20 years ago when it was first published. Haven't seen the movie yet.

26th December 2005, 04:01 PM	#10
patchbunny Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2004 Location: Right about... here. Posts: 1,551	Originally Posted by Freakshow Has Spielberg said anything about why he chose to portray this particular aspect of the situation? I believe he shows the assasinations afterwards, correct? Why did he make the choice to make the movie about that, as opposed to other aspects, such as the event itself? Or the planning and actions that led up to it? I was just wondering, that's all. Anybody got a link to an interview where he discusses this? There's already a documentary that goes into the event itself, titled One Day In September. I've never seen a film on the actual assassinations that followed, so this (I think) is an original entry into that subject.
	__________________ "So, they laugh at my boner, will they? I'll show them! I'll show them how many boners the Joker can make!" -- The Joker, Batman #66

27th December 2005, 07:31 AM	#11
Kiless Guest Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 6,103	Originally Posted by patchbunny There's already a documentary that goes into the event itself, titled One Day In September. I've never seen a film on the actual assassinations that followed, so this (I think) is an original entry into that subject. Yes, that's what I watched when researching documentaries to teach to some upper-school students. So, I'll go see this film. I want to make my own mind up. One interesting summation, The War on Munich - from Salon.com, by Michelle Goldberg: "The same day, Variety editor Peter Bart published a dispatch about awards season campaigning. Noting that Spielberg was lying low, he wrote, "Having gone to such excruciating pains to explain that there is no 'right' and 'wrong' in the Middle East (thus adding to the film's exhaustive length) the filmmaker understandably wants to avoid the angst of the interview circuit." (Variety had already given the movie a scathing review.) The following day, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported on Ehud Danoch, Israel's consul general in Los Angeles, airing similar criticisms. "According to Danoch, throughout the film Spielberg equates the Mossad agents and the terrorists," Haaretz wrote, quoting him saying, "This is an incorrect moral equation. We in Israel know this. There is also a certain pretentiousness in attempting to treat a painful, decades-long conflict by means of quite superficial statements in a two and a half hour movie. As the political attacks pile up, the real meaning of "Munich" -- a flawed but powerful and, yes, complex movie -- threatens to get lost amid all the huffing and bleating... ...But the political discussion around "Munich" has already been framed in a way that obscures the film itself." I admit... I'm also going to see it as Eric Bana (Avner) is an Australian actor.
Kiless Guest Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 6,103

27th December 2005, 08:17 AM	#12
HarryKeogh Catholic School Survivor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 11,342	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer Yes, I saw it yesterday. Two thumbs up! If it's your review shouldn't it just be "thumbs up" instead of "two thumbs up"? Or do you have a co-host we don't know about?

27th December 2005, 08:20 AM	#13
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,264	Originally Posted by HarryKeogh If it's your review shouldn't it just be "thumbs up" instead of "two thumbs up"? Or do you have a co-host we don't know about? Yes, my friend is the co-host! But he doesn't post here, so I have to convey his review for him.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

27th December 2005, 08:22 AM	#14
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,264	Originally Posted by Kiless I admit... I'm also going to see it as Eric Bana (Avner) is an Australian actor. I thought it might be fun to cross Munich with The Hulk. Then, when the bad guys are shooting at Eric Bana, he could become the Hulk and squash them!
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

27th December 2005, 08:24 AM	#15
DaveW Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 340	Spielberg did a bit of an interview about "Munich" in a recent Time.
DaveW Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 340

27th December 2005, 09:04 AM	#16
Magyar Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: the edge of reason Posts: 1,541	Just a side note. There has been a movie made on this subject already. I can't recall the name, but supposedly it is factually based on the leader of the team who got recruded to Musad then quit, moved to NY and then went back to Israel. In the movie he was a captain(?) of some tank unit. THe guy who played the lead was the guy who was Tony Montana's partner in Scarface.
	__________________ "There is no heresy or no philosophy which is so abhorrent to the church as a human being." James Joyce Due to recent cutbacks the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.

27th December 2005, 09:42 AM	#17
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Originally Posted by Magyar Just a side note. There has been a movie made on this subject already. I can't recall the name, but supposedly it is factually based on the leader of the team who got recruded to Musad then quit, moved to NY and then went back to Israel. In the movie he was a captain(?) of some tank unit. THe guy who played the lead was the guy who was Tony Montana's partner in Scarface. You're thinking of Sword of Gideon (1986)
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	__________________ Private Information, Do not read this!

27th December 2005, 07:29 PM	#18
HeyLeroy Vegan Cannibal Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Going off the rails on the Crazy Train. Posts: 5,565	Originally Posted by Grammatron You're thinking of Sword of Gideon (1986) Grr, you beat me to it! I have the DVD, not a bad flick. I read Vengeance when it first came out. It was a really gripping read.
	__________________ Cows are in large numbers, and do not serve any other purpose, other than to eat grass, and moo -- makaya325 I ♥ my kids. I ♠ my dog. I ♣ my baby Harp Seal.

28th December 2005, 05:46 AM	#19
Garrette Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 10,540	I, too, read Vengeance about 20 years ago. I was impressed with the details the author revealed but also with his changing moral views. iirc, he maintained his belief in the righteousness of accurately targeted retribution but became disgusted with the collateral damage Israel was willing to bear and very upset with the methods of the Mossad not only in dealing with the terrorists but in dealing with him and his agents. Recommended read.
	__________________ My kids still love me.

28th December 2005, 11:06 AM	#20
Jas Queen Skankarella of Ho Nation Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,845	The movie doesn't open here until the 6th, I'm hoping to see it. I read Vengeance some years back, though I should probably go back to it before seeing the movie.
	__________________ "Ah, there's nothing more exciting than science! You get all the fun of sitting still, being quiet, writing down numbers, paying attention... Science has it all!" Lest We Forget

31st December 2005, 01:19 PM	#21
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	The criticism of the movie is mostly based on the fact that it makes the mossad agents who got the Palestinian terrorists who killed the athletes have second thoughts, doubts, etc. I doubt this is intended to create a moral equivalence between the two. It seems to me Spielberg simply knows that simple characters, no matter how morally in the right, make for a boring movie.