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Garrette · 29th December 2005, 06:40 AM

I live in Indiana on the border with Kentucky. I work in Kentucky and was born there but was raised here. I consider both states equally my home.

Now I have dual reasons to be proud.

I hope it’s pride; something’s definitely making me want to cry…

Indiana legislators want to mandate teaching Intelligent Design.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051103/NEWS02/511030467/1006/NEWS01

And while I have no link, the local news this morning ran a clip saying that officials in Elizabethtown, Kentucky, (I used to live there) want to place the Ten Commandments in the courthouse. They say they can justify this now based on the recent decision in Mercer County, Kentucky, in which the 10Cs were allowed because they were only part of a larger display of historical documents.

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051221/NEWS01/512210407

Spidey13 · 29th December 2005, 08:04 AM

Well, I noticed the IN article is dated Nov. 3, so hopefully the Dover decision will help avoid this.

Hell, let's just move.

Charlie Monoxide · 29th December 2005, 08:09 AM

Hmmmm, a "supernatural hand" is the reason for the complexity of life.

It sounds to me more like an ad for a massage parlour that some god-boy theory of us.

Charlie (welcome to the United States of Jeebus) Monoxide

Upchurch · 29th December 2005, 08:12 AM

You could come to Missouri. We just let our really stupid legislation die a lingering death in limbo rather than actually doing anything about it. Death through inaction.

Go Show Me And Maybe I'll Get Around To It Someday State!

Mephisto · 29th December 2005, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Spidey13

Well, I noticed the IN article is dated Nov. 3, so hopefully the Dover decision will help avoid this.

Hell, let's just move.

It would be nice to believe that the Dover decision would change their mind, but they are, after all, Pennsylvania liberals . . .

Spidey13 · 29th December 2005, 08:29 AM

OK, I perused the IN article some more and this struck me.

Quote:

"Evolution was designed by God," said Rep. Jerry Denbo, D-French Lick. "I really think that should be taught -- that there is a master. We didn't just come about by accident."

So, he's saying evolution is correct, but God guided it. Isn't this what many evolutionists believe, including Ken Miller, who is Catholic? If this is so, then why bring God into it, unless you're trying to push some religious agenda? Yeah, these people tick me off.

Melendwyr · 29th December 2005, 08:39 AM

That's like saying "this soup cooled down because of evaporative cooling, but God guided it because he doesn't want me to burn my tongue". It's meaningless nonsense.

Spidey13 · 29th December 2005, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Melendwyr

That's like saying "this soup cooled down because of evaporative cooling, but God guided it because he doesn't want me to burn my tongue". It's meaningless nonsense.

Exactly.

Roadtoad · 29th December 2005, 09:01 AM

I'm not sure what scares me more: the idea that we're going to have religion rammed down our throats, or who's doing the ramming.

At some point, these people need to get the message that "No" means "No." If they were so damned set on having religion in this country, why weren't they praying with their kids at home back in the '50s? Why weren't they taking in unwed mothers in the '70s? So now, we have to have ID in the '00s.

Insanity.

Garrette · 29th December 2005, 09:03 AM

I like that Melendwyr. Mind if I use it should I write a letter?

Melendwyr · 29th December 2005, 09:23 AM

Go ahead, but I'm not entirely happy with the wording.

Perhaps "My soup cooled off because of evaporation, but God guided...". It's the repetition of 'cooling' that's problematic.

Mephisto · 29th December 2005, 10:20 AM

IDers are insistent on circular logic so nothing you can say will sway them.

Here is a perfect example:

You Can't Know Atheism is True Unless God Exists

by
Jason Dulle
JasonDulle@charter.net

I am not an advocate of the presuppositional approach to apologetics, but I do agree that part of the apologist's task is to challenge the atheist's presuppositions about reality. One such presupposition is that knowledge is real and objectively meaningful. Those who deny God's existence claim to know that God does not exist, and believe that their reasons for denying His existence are superior to our reasons for affirming His existence. What they fail to realize is that knowledge (including the free deliberation of the mind required to arrive at knowledge) is not possible if God does not exist. A theistic worldview is necessary to ground knowledge in objective reality.

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstu...equiresgod.htm
___________

Much like the claim that water boils at a certain temperature ONLY because that's the temperature that God wants it to boil at! Science has absolutely nothing to do with it, and if it does, it's because God intended it to be so.

29th December 2005, 06:40 AM	#1
Garrette Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 10,647	The State of Religion in Both My States I live in Indiana on the border with Kentucky. I work in Kentucky and was born there but was raised here. I consider both states equally my home. Now I have dual reasons to be proud. I hope it’s pride; something’s definitely making me want to cry… Indiana legislators want to mandate teaching Intelligent Design. http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051103/NEWS02/511030467/1006/NEWS01 And while I have no link, the local news this morning ran a clip saying that officials in Elizabethtown, Kentucky, (I used to live there) want to place the Ten Commandments in the courthouse. They say they can justify this now based on the recent decision in Mercer County, Kentucky, in which the 10Cs were allowed because they were only part of a larger display of historical documents. http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051221/NEWS01/512210407
	__________________ My kids still love me.

29th December 2005, 08:04 AM	#2
Spidey13 Pastor of Muppets Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Goshen, KY Posts: 3,606	Well, I noticed the IN article is dated Nov. 3, so hopefully the Dover decision will help avoid this. Hell, let's just move.
	__________________ "I love you like a fat kid love cake." - 50 Cent

29th December 2005, 08:09 AM	#3
Charlie Monoxide Wag Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 2,761	Hmmmm, a "supernatural hand" is the reason for the complexity of life. It sounds to me more like an ad for a massage parlour that some god-boy theory of us. Charlie (welcome to the United States of Jeebus) Monoxide
	__________________ Major General Wag of JREF

29th December 2005, 08:20 AM	#5
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by Spidey13 Well, I noticed the IN article is dated Nov. 3, so hopefully the Dover decision will help avoid this. Hell, let's just move. It would be nice to believe that the Dover decision would change their mind, but they are, after all, Pennsylvania liberals . . .
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

29th December 2005, 08:29 AM	#6
Spidey13 Pastor of Muppets Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Goshen, KY Posts: 3,606	OK, I perused the IN article some more and this struck me. Quote: "Evolution was designed by God," said Rep. Jerry Denbo, D-French Lick. "I really think that should be taught -- that there is a master. We didn't just come about by accident." So, he's saying evolution is correct, but God guided it. Isn't this what many evolutionists believe, including Ken Miller, who is Catholic? If this is so, then why bring God into it, unless you're trying to push some religious agenda? Yeah, these people tick me off.
	__________________ "I love you like a fat kid love cake." - 50 Cent

29th December 2005, 08:12 AM	#4
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,480	You could come to Missouri. We just let our really stupid legislation die a lingering death in limbo rather than actually doing anything about it. Death through inaction. Go Show Me And Maybe I'll Get Around To It Someday State!

29th December 2005, 08:39 AM	#7
Melendwyr Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,064	That's like saying "this soup cooled down because of evaporative cooling, but God guided it because he doesn't want me to burn my tongue". It's meaningless nonsense.
Melendwyr Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,064	__________________ Arguing with the irrational is like giving medicine to a dead man or preaching to the damned. "Dance with us, GIR! Dance with us into oblivion!" "Oddly, stating that one has no creed assures that one has no creed." -- Upchurch "I am the only one here using reason." -- Interesting Ian "You cannot respond to the arguments of TIMECUBE!" -- TimeCube guy

29th December 2005, 08:43 AM	#8
Spidey13 Pastor of Muppets Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Goshen, KY Posts: 3,606	Originally Posted by Melendwyr That's like saying "this soup cooled down because of evaporative cooling, but God guided it because he doesn't want me to burn my tongue". It's meaningless nonsense. Exactly.
	__________________ "I love you like a fat kid love cake." - 50 Cent

29th December 2005, 09:01 AM	#9
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,739	I'm not sure what scares me more: the idea that we're going to have religion rammed down our throats, or who's doing the ramming. At some point, these people need to get the message that "No" means "No." If they were so damned set on having religion in this country, why weren't they praying with their kids at home back in the '50s? Why weren't they taking in unwed mothers in the '70s? So now, we have to have ID in the '00s. Insanity.

29th December 2005, 09:03 AM	#10
Garrette Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 10,647	I like that Melendwyr. Mind if I use it should I write a letter?
	__________________ My kids still love me.

29th December 2005, 09:23 AM	#11
Melendwyr Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,064	Go ahead, but I'm not entirely happy with the wording. Perhaps "My soup cooled off because of evaporation, but God guided...". It's the repetition of 'cooling' that's problematic.
Melendwyr Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,064	__________________ Arguing with the irrational is like giving medicine to a dead man or preaching to the damned. "Dance with us, GIR! Dance with us into oblivion!" "Oddly, stating that one has no creed assures that one has no creed." -- Upchurch "I am the only one here using reason." -- Interesting Ian "You cannot respond to the arguments of TIMECUBE!" -- TimeCube guy

29th December 2005, 10:20 AM	#12
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	You can't win . . . IDers are insistent on circular logic so nothing you can say will sway them. Here is a perfect example: You Can't Know Atheism is True Unless God Exists by Jason Dulle JasonDulle@charter.net I am not an advocate of the presuppositional approach to apologetics, but I do agree that part of the apologist's task is to challenge the atheist's presuppositions about reality. One such presupposition is that knowledge is real and objectively meaningful. Those who deny God's existence claim to know that God does not exist, and believe that their reasons for denying His existence are superior to our reasons for affirming His existence. What they fail to realize is that knowledge (including the free deliberation of the mind required to arrive at knowledge) is not possible if God does not exist. A theistic worldview is necessary to ground knowledge in objective reality. http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstu...equiresgod.htm ___________ Much like the claim that water boils at a certain temperature ONLY because that's the temperature that God wants it to boil at! Science has absolutely nothing to do with it, and if it does, it's because God intended it to be so.
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi