Demjanjuk May Be Deported After All

[Roadtoad]

He's 85. Israel said it was someone else. And still, our Government insists on deporting John Demjanjuk.

Quote:

CLEVELAND - Losing another round in court, John Demjanjuk, the retired autoworker accused of being a Nazi concentration camp guard, may be running out of legal options in his decades-long deportation battle.

The 85-year-old man once suspected of being the notoriously brutal guard known as Ivan the Terrible has 30 days to appeal a judge's deportation order Wednesday that would send him to his native Ukraine.

Chief U.S. Immigration Judge Michael Creppy ruled that there was no evidence to substantiate Demjanjuk's claim that he would be tortured if deported to his homeland. He said Demjanjuk should be deported to Germany or Poland if Ukraine does not accept him.

I've been following this one for years. There has been serious evidence that the prosecution of this man was erroneous from the beginning. Yes, Demjanjuk was a guard at a Nazi camp, but he was not Ivan the Terrible. That individual died years ago.

It would be one thing if Demjanjuk were actually being held to account for his own actions, but he's not. He's being made a scapegoat for the actions of a man who's now dead, and for a State Department that's too cowardly to take responsible action. At this point, the man is being made to prove his innocence, rather than the other way around. And I'm sorry, but as much as I respect the staff at the Weisenthal Center, this time, they're wrong.

[Cleon]

"Yes, Demjanjuk was a guard at a Nazi camp" - see, just from that point, I'm not exactly shedding a lot of tears for this guy.

[Roadtoad]

Nor am I, but there's a greater principle here. Hold people responsible for what they've actually done, not what you want to think they've done.

I'm not asking for any sympathy for this guy, but come on! Get the facts straight! Otherwise, you're no better than the f***heads he worked for in the early '40s!

[Melendwyr]

Originally Posted by Cleon

"Yes, Demjanjuk was a guard at a Nazi camp" - see, just from that point, I'm not exactly shedding a lot of tears for this guy.

What should he have done? Shot himself in the head, instead?

[Roadtoad]

Originally Posted by Melendwyr

What should he have done? Shot himself in the head, instead?

Might have saved on legal fees. (No, I'm not joking.)

Esquire magazine did an article on this years ago, though I can't remember exactly when. If I can find something of it, I'll post it here. But, one thing I remember clearly from the article is that Demjanjuk's son actually went and searched out all the information he could find about Ivan the Terrible. Israel overturned Demjanjuk's sentence when it was discovered that memories lose their strength over time, and that they had the wrong guy. That doesn't justify what he did do, but as I said, hold him to account for that, not what was committed by another man.

In this case, the US government is trying to hold Demjanjuk to account for the actions of another man. That's what's wrong.

[Manny]

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

In this case, the US government is trying to hold Demjanjuk to account for the actions of another man. That's what's wrong.

I don't think that's the case. Demjanjuk's attorney claims that the State Department hasn't done a sufficient job retracting their earlier claim, and that may be true as far as public utterances is concerned, but he's being deported not for being Ivan the Terrible, which he wasn't, but for lying on his visa and citizenship applications, which he did.

[Roadtoad]

More information here. While Demjanjuk denies he was a guard, there is evidence he was, though he wasn't Ivan.

[Ian Osborne]

Originally Posted by Melendwyr

What should he have done? Shot himself in the head, instead?

Exactly. It's ridiculous to hold every member of the German armed services accountable for every Nazi misdeed. Did America prosecute every soldier serving in Vietnam for the Mai Lei massacre?

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

Exactly. It's ridiculous to hold every member of the German armed services accountable for every Nazi misdeed. Did America prosecute every soldier serving in Vietnam for the Mai Lei massacre?

There's a difference between fighting with a panzer division against Patton's army and serving as a guard in a concentration camp!

[Manny]

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

More information here. While Demjanjuk denies he was a guard, there is evidence he was, though he wasn't Ivan.

I don't see any evidence there that the State Department is still claiming he is Ivan. So I'm not sure what the point of this thread is -- your statement that "It would be one thing if Demjanjuk were actually being held to account for his own actions, but he's not" appears to be in error.

[Melendwyr]

Originally Posted by Cleon

There's a difference between fighting with a panzer division against Patton's army and serving as a guard in a concentration camp!

Is there? What choice did he have? Deserting would be treasonous, and would get him killed quite quickly. I don't believe he could have refused the post.

So what was he supposed to do? Shoot himself in the head? Being a guard at a concentration camp does not in itself involve participating or instigating atrocities.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by Melendwyr

Is there? What choice did he have? Deserting would be treasonous, and would get him killed quite quickly. I don't believe he could have refused the post.

So what was he supposed to do? Shoot himself in the head?

Ah, yes, "he was only following orders."

Quote:

Being a guard at a concentration camp does not in itself involve participating or instigating atrocities.

I emphatically disagree. By functioning as a camp guard, he was actively participating in the Holocaust machine.

[Roadtoad]

Quote:

John Broadley, Demjanjuk's lawyer, said the ruling is the judge's final order in the case. It was required before Creppy's June ruling, which authorized the government to deport Demjanjuk, could be appealed.

Broadley said Demjanjuk would appeal Creppy's earlier decision and possibly the latest ruling.

Authorities first tried to deport Demjanjuk in 1977, accusing him of being Ivan the Terrible at the Treblinka concentration camp. In 1986, Demjanjuk was extradited to Israel, where he was convicted and sentenced to death after a dramatic, televised trial. But after a five-year legal battle, the conviction was thrown out when the Israeli Supreme Court found in 1993 that someone else apparently was Ivan the Terrible.

Demjanjuk returned to the United States and his U.S. citizenship was restored before being lifted again.

The current case is based on evidence uncovered by the Justice Department alleging he was a different guard. Demjanjuk has denied the allegations.

Perhaps. Part of this bears the taint of what Broadly mentions, that the State Department still has not cleared matters up regarding the earlier allegations. There's no information presented here that this has not played a role in the latest round. The State Department has smelled blood itself, and is playing this very dangerous game.

[Roadtoad]

Originally Posted by Cleon

I emphatically disagree. By functioning as a camp guard, he was actively participating in the Holocaust machine.

The Eichmann defense has not worked in the past. It should not be applied now.

And if the evidence is solid, that Demjanjuk did, in fact, serve as a guard, and that he did lie on his application for citizenship, the only thing I can say is "Adios, Dude."

[Manny]

Originally Posted by Cleon

I emphatically disagree. By functioning as a camp guard, he was actively participating in the Holocaust machine.

More specifically, he was in violation of 8 USC 1182.

Quote:

"(i) PARTICIPATION IN NAZI PERSECUTIONS- Any alien who, during the period beginning on March 23, 1933, and ending on May 8, 1945, under the direction of, or in association with--

`(I) the Nazi government of Germany,

`(II) any government in any area occupied by the military forces of the Nazi government of Germany,

`(III) any government established with the assistance or cooperation of the Nazi government of Germany, or

`(IV) any government which was an ally of the Nazi government of Germany,

ordered, incited, assisted, or otherwise participated in the persecution of any person because of race, religion, national origin, or political opinion is excludable.

`(ii) PARTICIPATION IN GENOCIDE- Any alien who has engaged in conduct that is defined as genocide for purposes of the International Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide is excludable.

[Melendwyr]

Originally Posted by Cleon

I emphatically disagree. By functioning as a camp guard, he was actively participating in the Holocaust machine.

I'll ask again: what else should he have done?

[Manny]

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

There's no information presented here that this has not played a role in the latest round. The State Department has smelled blood itself, and is playing this very dangerous game.

The State Department always deports concentration camp participants when they come to their attention, even if they turn out not to be the particular concentration camp participant they first thought. Here's another one which came up on a quick search.

Broadley seems to want State to put up a big banner on Broadway saying "Well, OK, he's not Demjanjuk!" before proceeding further. Well, I want a pony.

[rikzilla]

Originally Posted by Cleon

Ah, yes, "he was only following orders."



I emphatically disagree. By functioning as a camp guard, he was actively participating in the Holocaust machine.

I wish I could say that I knew more about this guy. It's an interesting situation. In my gut I have to agree with my friend Cleon. (sorry Cleon)

If this guy was a guard at a Nazi camp;and if said camp was also a death camp; then Cleon is absolutely correct. However if he was a guard at a camp where no attrocities took place I think we could cut him some slack based on his age/health. Yes even if he lied on his immigration form I think we could let him live out his last days at his home.

I'd only cut him slack if he was a camp guard where no innocent people were systematically murdered though. (If such a place existed)

No; I'm not ready to cry for him any more than I did for Tookie. But it does seem to me that if he was tried; then freed; by the Israelis that should be good enough for us. It seems to me that we're kicking him in the nuts on a technicality.

-z

[Ian Osborne]

So would everyone here who's calling for his deportation also demand the prosecution of every soldier under Calley's command at Mai Lei?

[Ian Osborne]

Double post

[rikzilla]

Originally Posted by Melendwyr

I'll ask again: what else should he have done?

Refrained from murdering; or supporting the murders of; innocent human beings for a start. He wouldn't have been alone. From what I hear there were some camp guards who were kind to prisoners; they could not all have been monsters. Yet if he simply "did his duty" at a death camp...he's guilty of abetting attrocities.

-z

[Manny]

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

So would everyone here who's calling for his deportation also demand the prosecution of every soldier under Calley's command at Mai Lei?

No, but I agree that it would be reasonable for Viet Nam not to offer citizenship to those people.

[rikzilla]

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

So would everyone here who's calling for his deportation also demand the prosecution of every soldier under Calley's command at Mai Lei?

Obeying an illegal order is itself illegal...so...yes. Unless there's a compelling reason not to that is.

-z

[davefoc]

If this is standard state department procedure for dealing with concentration camp guards then it seems like a good thing to deport him to me.

And I think that it is a good thing that this is standard state department procedure if it is.

The confounding thing here is that the state department harassed the guy for years even after it became obvious that he was most likely not Ivan the terrible. So now it is hard to separate stanadard state department procedure from obstinate, we can't be wrong, let's get the guy state department procedure.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

So would everyone here who's calling for his deportation also demand the prosecution of every soldier under Calley's command at Mai Lei?

If they participated in or aided the massacre? HELL YES!

Again, we're not talking about some panzer driver who fought the Allies, here. We're talking about someone who was an active participant in the Holocaust. He might not have the blood on his hands that someone at Hoess' level had, but he actively participated in and aided the slaughter of countless innocents.

[webfusion]

In error, davefoc indicated:
"The confounding thing here is that the state department harassed the guy for years even after it became obvious that he was most likely not Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka."

No, they didn't.

On May 20, 1999, the Justice Department filed a new civil complaint against Demjanjuk.

No mention was made in the new complaint of the previous allegations that Demjanjuk was Ivan the Terrible. Instead, the complaint alleged that Demjanjuk served as a guard at the Sobibor and Majdanek camps in Poland and at the Flossenburg camp in Germany. It additionally accused Demjanjuk of being a member of an SS-run unit that took part in capturing nearly two million Jews in the General Government of Poland. -- from wikipedia.

This was not a State Department thing -- it was a Justice Dep't prosecution, which led to a ruling on May 1, 2004, by a three-judge panel of the 6th US Circuit Court of Appeals, that Demjanjuk could be stripped of his US citizenship because the Justice Department had presented "clear, unequivocal, and convincing evidence" of Demjanjuk's service in Nazi death camps.

[Cleon]

Majdanek? SOBIBOR?

I hope the guy rots in hell.

[Roadtoad]

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

So would everyone here who's calling for his deportation also demand the prosecution of every soldier under Calley's command at Mai Lei?

I wish they had. I also wish they'd gone after Ernest Medina, Calley's commanding officer. What happened at My Lai was unconscionable.

[Roadtoad]

Originally Posted by Cleon

Majdanek? SOBIBOR?

I hope the guy rots in hell.

Tragically, you'll find there are more than a few who want to be far kinder to him than he was to the people he stood guard over.

The fact that he stood guard at those camps where atrocities actually took place pretty much seals his fate.

[webfusion]

Oh, I dunno, Ukrainian ladies might find this fat, bald guy to be cute and lovable, and he'll find a real hot babe to take care of him in his remaining years...

http://www.ukrainian-women.net/

Anyway, it sure can't be worse than DETROIT!
http://ukrainian-women.net/kiev/
http://ukrainian-women.net/massandra/

[Manny]

Heh. It just occurred to me that he's probably receiving an autoworker's pension. He'll be the richest guy in Ukraine.

[webfusion]

Heh, fat, bald, rich guy!

Irresistable.

[Kerberos]

Originally Posted by Cleon

Ah, yes, "he was only following orders."



I emphatically disagree. By functioning as a camp guard, he was actively participating in the Holocaust machine.

I'm sure that if anybody ever points a gun at you head, and tells you to do something wrong you'll bravely refuse, and get your brains splattered over the floor rather than compromise your principles, but not everybody is equally courageous.

[Giz]

Originally Posted by Kerberos

I'm sure that if anybody ever points a gun at you head, and tells you to do something wrong you'll bravely refuse, and get your brains splattered over the floor rather than compromise your principles, but not everybody is equally courageous.

Do you think only Hitler should have been liable to being charged with war crimes?

[Manny]

Originally Posted by Kerberos

I'm sure that if anybody ever points a gun at you head, and tells you to do something wrong you'll bravely refuse, and get your brains splattered over the floor rather than compromise your principles, but not everybody is equally courageous.

But here's the thing. Back when the US thought he was a really, really, really bad guy (Ivan the terrible) we wanted to (and did) ship him off to Israel to face a war crimes tribunal and the death penalty. Now that he was a less bad guy all we want to do is comply with our law and revoke his citizenship, sending him back to his home country.

[Ian Osborne]

Originally Posted by Giz

Do you think only Hitler should have been liable to being charged with war crimes?

Of course not, but it's a case of getting the balance right, not choosing between two extremes.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by Kerberos

I'm sure that if anybody ever points a gun at you head, and tells you to do something wrong you'll bravely refuse, and get your brains splattered over the floor rather than compromise your principles, but not everybody is equally courageous.

Pardon me, but I think "not participating in the systematic slaughter of millions of innocent people" goes a tad beyond mere "principle."

The "he was only following orders" defense was a load of hooey when Eichmann used it, and it's a load of hooey now.

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by Melendwyr

I'll ask again: what else should he have done?

Not serve as a concentration camp guard? It's not as if anybody was forced at gunpoint to do so.

[Kerberos]

Originally Posted by Giz

Do you think only Hitler should have been liable to being charged with war crimes?

Hardly, anybody who volunteered for a position they knew or should have known entailed war crimes, went beyond the call of "duty" or any such thing is fair game IMO, but pretending that the German soldiers all had a free choice is ridiculous. A person who commits an act under a death threat explicit or implicit is not equally culpable as somebody who does it of his own free will. Would you not count it as an extenuating circumstance if a criminal had committed a crime with a gun to his head? Perhaps they shouldn’t just be let go regardless of what they did, but if refusing an order will get you killed, then “acting under orders” is very much a valid excuse, at least partially.

[Kerberos]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Not serve as a concentration camp guard? It's not as if anybody was forced at gunpoint to do so.

Isn't it? I don't know my history that well, but weren't conscripts assigned a duty without being given a choice? The more of a choice he had, the more he can obviously be held responsible.