Multiple Personality Disorder/DID

[shalomsteph]

I never jumped on the MPD/DID/Repressed Memory/Satanic Ritual Abuse bandwagon. I have a degree in social work, so I am not an uneducated observer. I researched quite a bit and came to the conclusion based on the hard science of how memory works. I know that MPD was renamed Dissociative Identity Disorder and IS listed in the DSM as a legitimate psychiatric disorder. So yes, I know people more well educated and experienced than I am found enough evidence to list it. (But, homosexuality ALSO used to be listed as a disorder that could be treated)

All of that being said, here is my dilemma. A friend of mine, a physician, believes that this exists and has some patients with it. She knows that I think its bunk, and we agree to disagree.

Well, she called me a few weeks ago to ask me a question. She said that a patient of hers with diagnosed MPD was raped, and there was a man being held in county lock up for raping her. The man swears up and down that the sex was consentual. Well, when my friend asked more questions, it turns out that "one of the personalities consented, but one was raped." I was appalled..here is a guy in jail for a one night stand!

Anyway, I advised her to let the police know the "new evidence", so the man could at least have bond lowered, if not the charges dropped altogether. She said she wanted to do that, but she was afraid that she would cause discrimination for all rape victims with a mental illnesses. I told her that wasn't her concern...her concern was about a man sitting in jail right now.

Well, to make a long story shorter, she did reveal that information and the man was released and charges were dropped. But I am wondering now if this has happened before, to other men? I can't quite believe this is an isolated incident, but I also haven't been able to find anything.

I always figured MPD was just something that misguided mental health professionals used as a diagnosis, or corrupt ones used to make money. I never thought about the "ripple effect" of giving a very ill person a way to get out of being responsibility. So what does everyone here think?

[Kiless]

I originally clicked on this because you had multiple threads (well, one other).... but I deleted the other one. But I find this intriguing and never really read up on it before.

I found this - where the final paragraph reads:
Charcot removed his patients from the special wards when he realised what he had been inventing. We can do the same. These patients should be treated by the same methods Charcot used--isolation and countersuggestion. Close the dissociation services and disperse the patients to general psychiatric units. Ignore the alters. Stop talking to them, taking notes on them, and discussing them in staff conferences. Pay attention to real present problems and conflicts rather than fantasy. If these simple, familiar rules are followed, multiple personalities will soon wither away and psychotherapy can begin.

and this on Skeptic's Dictionary:
"The experts have created both the disease and the cure. This does not mean that MPD does not exist, but that its origin and development are often, if not most often, explicable without the model of separate but permeable ego-states or "alters" arising out of the ashes of a destroyed "original self." .....
....It is possible, of course, that some cases of MPD emerge spontaneously without input from the MPD community, while other cases--perhaps most cases--of MPD have been created by therapists with the cooperation of their patients who have been influenced by authors and film makers. In either case, the suffering of the person with MPD is equally pitiable and deserving of our understanding, not derision."

In posting these links and these snippets, however, I don't want to in any way detract from the crime of rape and how serious I consider it to be. But I have expounded my views on the topic of how rape is viewed on another forum (MuNu, here) and would probably let that stand as a good overview of my opinions if people wanted to know about that. From the information you have given here... I'd be tempted to see what the law said in general about mental illnesses and rape and how that influenced the case?

[clarsct]

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

How does one prove consent?

Usually, with a violent rape, there are certain physical datum that can be used. Tearing of the vaginal area, for one, and possible DNA evidence for another, not to mention bruises, abrasions, and the usual knocking around that happens beforehand.

But on a date rape....it's much harder to tell, though the presence of intoxicants can be a tell-tale. There can also be some 'forced' action going on, which results in bruising and vaginal tearing as well. Then again, this can also happen during rough consentual sex.

If a woman consents, then later feels guilty and decides she didn't...well, is that rape?

As for a mentally ill, did this woman KNOW she was MPD? Was she checked out beforehand by a professional? It seems to me that even a 'mild' case would tend to render you non-functional in society. She shouldn't have been let out of doors on her own.

Besides, it was my understanding that the personalities switched, one then the other...not two at once.

I have every sympathy for a woman who has been raped. And none at all for her attacker(s). But something doesn't smell right, here.

[Simon Bridge]

Quote:

But I am wondering now if this has happened before, to other men? I can't quite believe this is an isolated incident, but I also haven't been able to find anything.

It has happened. Can be quite common in dissociatives. And the legal proffession is quite aware of it. If fact, I know it is given to criminal law students as an excersize... with variations: My alternate personality committed the murder (is this a defence?)

Quote:

A friend of mine, a physician, believes that this exists and has some patients with it.

This sort of thing is common - I take it the physician is an MD with no psychiatric training?

Qite a lot of the pseudo and plain junk science in health is circulated by MDs.

[Pope130]

Advice I received many years ago as a young Airman:
"Never sleep with anyone crazier than yourself."

Robert

[Simon Bridge]

Quote:

How does one prove consent?

Usually it is up to the accuser to prove that consent was absent. As you point out, this is a delicate and problematical process, one that is well covered in legal literature. In many cases it is down to the percieved character of the protagonists ... however, cases with little physical evidence seldom see trial.

The best advise for those considering adding sex to a date is to be honest from the word go. I've found a good first date comment is "I feel I should tell you that I never have sex on the first date." Nicely disarming and remarkably informative. Now the sex is out of the way - we can start talking sensibly. Of course, I could be pursuaded...

Quote:

It seems to me that even a 'mild' case would tend to render you non-functional in society.

Not at all. It is possible to be quite extreemly dissociative and still function quite well. There is a face for each situation.

Note: we are all mildly dissociative.

[clarsct]

Well, if you mean that we all wear masks, then I would agree.

But if you really have another person living inside you, how could you be responsible for ANYTHING you do or say...or that is even done to you?

You would be unable to engage in any social contract of any kind, let alone a legal contract.

[Kiless]

Originally Posted by clarsct

Well, if you mean that we all wear masks, then I would agree.

But if you really have another person living inside you, how could you be responsible for ANYTHING you do or say...or that is even done to you?

You would be unable to engage in any social contract of any kind, let alone a legal contract.

Could a person be convinced into thinking they're insane?

[Mercutio]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Milligan
http://www.danielkeyesauthor.com/milligan.html

Billy Milligan's case was a bit different: the MPD'ed individual was the rapist, but only one of the 24 known personalities (adding insult to the injury received by the victims, the rapist personality was a lesbian woman); how can one imprison 23 innocent personalities for the actions of one?

Milligan was acquitted, but this is not the victory that it may seem. He was institutionalized in a system that compares (some say poorly) to the penitentiary system.

The Minds of Billy Milligan is a fascinating book, no matter what your opinion of the reality of the condition.

[Kiless]

I recognise the 'Flowers for Algernon' writer.... is it the same Keyes?

Ah, edit - yes it is. Interesting.

[epepke]

Originally Posted by shalomsteph

I never jumped on the MPD/DID/Repressed Memory/Satanic Ritual Abuse bandwagon. I have a degree in social work, so I am not an uneducated observer. I researched quite a bit and came to the conclusion based on the hard science of how memory works. I know that MPD was renamed Dissociative Identity Disorder and IS listed in the DSM as a legitimate psychiatric disorder. So yes, I know people more well educated and experienced than I am found enough evidence to list it. (But, homosexuality ALSO used to be listed as a disorder that could be treated)

All of that being said, here is my dilemma. A friend of mine, a physician, believes that this exists and has some patients with it. She knows that I think its bunk, and we agree to disagree.

If you look carefully in the DSM-IV (I don't have the revised edition), it stops short of claiming that multiple personalities actually exist.

I'm not a psychiatrist, but I taught English in a psychiatric hospital, I was married to a psychiatric nurse, and I've talked with a lot of psychiatrists, often over some single-malt scotch. The majority consensus seems to be 1) multiple personalities really don't exist, and 2) the diagnosis, when it has been given, really describes one extreme manifestation of Borderline Personality Disorder.

Quote:

Well, to make a long story shorter, she did reveal that information and the man was released and charges were dropped. But I am wondering now if this has happened before, to other men? I can't quite believe this is an isolated incident, but I also haven't been able to find anything.

Haven't you checked Google? http://www.astraeasweb.net/plural/forensic.html was the first link on the list. Note that MPD has also been used in defense.

I haven't been able to find a reference to a case I remember from a couple of decades ago, where a man was charged for having sex with an adult woman's "underage personality." It was a fairly notorious case and provided meat for writers of courtroom drama teleplays for quite a while.

Quote:

I always figured MPD was just something that misguided mental health professionals used as a diagnosis, or corrupt ones used to make money. I never thought about the "ripple effect" of giving a very ill person a way to get out of being responsibility. So what does everyone here think?

Well, of course, going for one-night stands is common Borderline behavior, but a lot of people who aren't borderlines go for one-night stands. Reporting that as rape, on the other hand, is textbook; it's right up there with self-inflicted injuries and surgery addiction. Borderlines manipulate and hurt others by exhibiting themselves as sufferers. They're exceptionally good at suckering people.

[ReFLeX]

Cultural note: IIRC, diagnoses of Dissociative Identity Disorder are seen almost exclusively in western nations.

[Simon Bridge]

clarsct: I didn't say everyone had MPD - remember, this is bogus. I said everyone dissociates. A healthy level of dssociation can help you keep a cool head when everyone else is losing theirs. (Of course, this isn't DID either. Remember, it's a healthy responce.) Have you ever observed the personality shifts your freinds go through as they enter new situations?

It's a bit like everyone is paranoid - that's the little voice that makes you check you have your car keys/purse/wallet - that you havn't left the gas on and so on. Is that person really looking at me in a funny way?

Ah! But it just occurs to me: you are part of the conspiracy! Hah! I'm on to you now - you don't fool me! <gibber>

ahem: Simon is suffering a slight setback. I will be in charge of his body for a while. You may call me Nomis. Thank you.

Kiless: You can pursuade "people" of anything given sufficient motivation

Bear in mind that much therapy involves convincing the patient they need treatment.

[clarsct]

Which is what I took the comment to mean.

Wearing a mask..IE, changing your output in regards to the environs you find yourself in. If I found myself in a group of militant, gun toting Fundamentalists, I doubt I would proclaim my atheism or go about teaching them how wrong they are.

We wear different masks around different people. We act differently around our parents than we do around our S/O.

I happen to work in an Emergency-related field actually. Some folks can keep their heads together, and some can't. And sometimes it is surprising who is who. I haven't yet been able to predict it.

And for the record, I am VERY paranoid. I constantly double and sometimes triple check myself. But, then again, this is useful when you're cleaning up a 800 gallon Sulfuric Acid spill.....

[shalomsteph]

Diagnostic criteria for 300.14 Dissociative Identity Disorder

A. The presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states (each with its own relatively enduring pattern of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and self).

B. At least two of these identities or personality states recurrently take control of the person's behavior.

C. Inability to recall important personal information that is too extensive to be explained by ordinary forgetfulness.

D. The disturbance is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., blackouts or chaotic behavior during Alcohol Intoxication) or a general medical condition (e.g., complex partial seizures). Note: In children, the symptoms are not attributable to imaginary playmates or other fantasy play.

Reprinted with permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision. Copyright 2000 American Psychiatric Association


That isn't really very vague or cautionary. It appears as though someone believes it is a legitimate dx. I don't. I wasn't really seeing that as negotiable. Some poeple believe Sylvia really talks to dead people and swear it is true, or that aliens really did land in Area 51. I don't. I class DID in the same category...yes, some really smart people believe it and want to legitimize it, despite the science.

I do agree that Borderline Personality Disorder does exist, and it is very destructive. Worked with them, got the shirt.

[Simon Bridge]

clarsct: a good summary.
Sure - though I was talking about a bit more dissociative that consciously playing a role. That's acting.

Personally I can get confused opening a door, and I'm terrified about blood. But see me at a car accident and I'm a different person. Logic and cold. When I'm doing it I don't know I'm doing it - I become aware of fine details but other people become something of a blur requiring effort to relate to. Fortunately they seem to just do as they're told.

But maybe not all that extreme.

Most people seem to be able to dissociate themselves from events around us. I suspect we do this when we see disaster news on TV too.

I think a disociative disorder is another case where a tame process gets out of hand.

Confrounted with a stress situation, we may have found we can sort of retreat a bit inside and the situation goes away - probably because we're not responding. When it gets very stressful, well maybe we need to go a little deeper. but if we don't learn another approach, we may get stuck in that state: schitzophrenia (amday - spelling).

Similarily with the paranoia - I had a father in law who had senile demetia. It was actually quite neet: all the tame paranoias would come out: where is the car (we didn't drive) did we sign the leave book (yes, we always do) every 10 mins or so unless something else occupied attention. But it's all stuff we do every day. My personal favorite was "I hope I ordered the salmon, it's my favorite." I liked this - imagine, you can order your favorite dish, and then forget about it. A restaurant meal becomes a pleasant surprise as the staff seem to just guess your every wish!

Well, it's a POV.

[epepke]

Originally Posted by shalomsteph

Diagnostic criteria for 300.14 Dissociative Identity Disorder

A. The presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states (each with its own relatively enduring pattern of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and self).

Nota bene: personality states, not personalities.

[luchog]

Originally Posted by ReFLeX

Cultural note: IIRC, diagnoses of Dissociative Identity Disorder are seen almost exclusively in western nations.

That's because elsewhere, it's usually seen as demon/spirit posession.

[ReFLeX]

Originally Posted by luchog

That's because elsewhere, it's usually seen as demon/spirit posession.

...I hope you're not serious. You do know there are civilized nations on other continents, right?

This would be begging the question anyway.

[Melendwyr]

Alas, psychiatry is nothing but a social construction. Actual illnesses are shunted over to neurology.

[Art Vandelay]

It seems to me that it unethical for the physician to tell the police confidential information. Also, do you know what the woman said to the police? Did she claim that the man physically forced her to have sex? Was there other evidence of rape?

[shalomsteph]

Art--My information is all second hand. There was no "physical evidence" of a rape--it could have been consentual. There was sperm, but this was the next day. Mostly, she was concerned about getting Plan B.

Apparently, she told the police she was forcibly raped. They required a rape kit, and she then said that she would only do one through her regular doctor. So she told the dr that "one of her personalities consented,and one did not consent, and the one that did not consent was raped."

My friend, doing the rape kit, is also obligated to report all evidence to the police. So confidentiality is waived in a situation such as this.

[Art Vandelay]

What I don't get is if the personality that consented was in control, why would he have to force her? If the personality that consented wasn't in control, then presumably the guy was aware of it. Seems to me that either the woman is lying, or the guy is. I don't see why the issue of MPD is relevant.

As far as confidentiality is concerned, was the woman informed of this rule?

[shalomsteph]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

What I don't get is if the personality that consented was in control, why would he have to force her? If the personality that consented wasn't in control, then presumably the guy was aware of it. Seems to me that either the woman is lying, or the guy is. I don't see why the issue of MPD is relevant.

As far as confidentiality is concerned, was the woman informed of this rule?

As for confidentiality, I don't know if she was told. Knowing my friend, she was.

The woman reported it as a rape to the police. I assume it was reported as a date rape type thing, since neither one says there was physical force involved. The guy says it was completely consentual, and it wasn't until AFTER they had sex that she "freaked out". SHE claimed that although one personality initially consented, a different personality later did not consent and this personality "felt violated", even though this personality did not "come on the scene" until later. BOTH agree that this happened after they had sex and he asked her to leave.

I agree that this sounds more like Borderline Personality Disorder, but her diagnosis is DID/MPD.

Anyway, I guess this is one reason why one night stands are a bad idea...

[Flange Desire]

Originally Posted by ReFLeX

...I hope you're not serious. You do know there are civilized nations on other continents, right?

This would be begging the question anyway.

Your point is a good one.

Some would believe that there is no (civilized) world outside the US;
and yet MPD, satanic ritual abuse, recovered memory syndrome, and ufo abductions are all clearly documented as recent US inventions.

Curious corundrum aint it?
(just need to beat my 'there is a world outside the US' drum occasionally)

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by shalomsteph

I assume it was reported as a date rape type thing, since neither one says there was physical force involved.

If there was no force, then how was it a forcible rape? What does force have to do with whether it was date rape?

Quote:

SHE claimed that although one personality initially consented, a different personality later did not consent and this personality "felt violated", even though this personality did not "come on the scene" until later.

What I'm not getting is what she told the cops. Did she tell the cops that one personality consented and another didn't?

[luchog]

Originally Posted by ReFLeX

...I hope you're not serious. You do know there are civilized nations on other continents, right?

This would be begging the question anyway.

No, the remark was meant mostly facetiously.

But...

Civilized != non/anti-religious. Religion and religious tradition takes a much greater role in non-Western nations than is often recognized. Moreso than in most first-world nations. Even in officially atheist China, religion is an extremely powerful force. And multiple personality is hardly a "Western" disorder. There are plenty of examples throughout, for example, Japanese history; although they're usually described in religious terms. And many examples of the more extreme type of "mediums" and "spiritualists" are clear cases of some sort of mental illness, including DID.

Of course, there are a non-trivial number of people in the US and Europe who are of such an extremist religious bent that they see many psychological, and even psychiatric, disorders as spiritual/demonic in nature, and treat them as such.

Of course, dismissal of disorders as simply a "weakness of the mind" or "hysteria" or merely a put-on is nothing new. Even disorders such as schizophrenia, now known to have a physical eitiology, were very recently seen as purely mental, being created by "schizophrenogenic" parents. Even psychiatric textbooks propounded the view that was caused by mothers who were "overanxious, obsessive, domineering and had a warped sex life".

[luchog]

Originally Posted by Flange Desire

Your point is a good one.

Some would believe that there is no (civilized) world outside the US;
and yet MPD, satanic ritual abuse, recovered memory syndrome, and ufo abductions are all clearly documented as recent US inventions.

No, not really they're not. The phenomena are persistent throughout history and across cultures; they've simply been given different names in different periods and locations. Where we now talk about "Alien Abduction", we used to talk about abduction or enchantment by "fairies", "djinn", etc. Where we now talk about DID and other mental illnesses, we used to talk about evil magicians (witches, shamans, etc.) casting spells to ensorcell the mind; and demon-, fox-spirit-, djinn- etc.-possession or influence. Where we see "recovered memory", others have seen "past lives",

It's only in the very recent history (less than a hundred years) that we've begun to get a basic understanding of the mechanics of the brain and consciousness; and the nature of eitiology of various forms of mental illness. Barely a hundred years ago, schizophrenia was considered a purely psychological disorder, rather than physical one.

[ReFLeX]

Originally Posted by luchog

No, the remark was meant mostly facetiously.

But...

Civilized != non/anti-religious. Religion and religious tradition takes a much greater role in non-Western nations than is often recognized. Moreso than in most first-world nations. Even in officially atheist China, religion is an extremely powerful force. And multiple personality is hardly a "Western" disorder. There are plenty of examples throughout, for example, Japanese history; although they're usually described in religious terms. And many examples of the more extreme type of "mediums" and "spiritualists" are clear cases of some sort of mental illness, including DID.

First of all, this still assumes that DID is the underlying cause of your observations. Also, we need not talk about history when we have diagnoses of DID in the present. The Merck Manual says:

Quote:

Dissociative identity disorder appears to be a rather common mental disorder. It can be found in 3 to 4% of people hospitalized for other mental health disorders and in a sizable minority of people in drug abuse treatment facilities.

Source
So why don't we see this in Japanese or Australian psychiatric hospitals?

Thirdly, then, what ARE your historical examples, so that we can determine why they couldn't simply be attributed to schizophrenia or something likewise.

[ReFLeX]

Originally Posted by Melendwyr

Alas, psychiatry is nothing but a social construction. Actual illnesses are shunted over to neurology.

The line blurs every day, as psychiatric disorders continually turn out to have subtle physiological sources.

[Melendwyr]

Originally Posted by luchog

Even disorders such as schizophrenia, now known to have a physical eitiology,

At the risk of hijacking the thread:

There is no such known physical etiology for schizophrenia. There are no physical tests for schizophrenia. We cannot even confirm that the diagnostic category of "schizophrenic" includes only one condition instead of many.

There are many neurological conditions with known physical etiologies. Parkinson's Disease, for one. Please present whatever you believe is known about the physicla etiology of Schizophrenia.

[Jeff Corey]

I have to agree. The correlation with enlarged venticals (also seen in other disorders) and smaller thalamuses in no way allows diagnosis of schizoprenia. When I was an aide in the pre Thorazine days, I was struck by the wide range of behaviors these people exhibited.

[epepke]

Originally Posted by shalomsteph

I agree that this sounds more like Borderline Personality Disorder, but her diagnosis is DID/MPD.

At this point I wonder if I was clear.

My belief is that when people are diagnosed with DID/MPD or some other disorders, including some of the facticious disorders and Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy, that the underlying disorder is really BPD.

Of course, that's my belief, but it is consistent with what I've been able to glean from discussions with psychiatrists.

I want to be very clear about this. I think that the DSM is still pretty primitive, and it will eventually turn out that there are far fewer disorders than it describes. For instance, I am guessing that bipolar mood disorder will in time come to be seen to be linked to seizure disorders.

Diagnosis of mental disorders is still rather primitive, with nothing resembling an etiology in most cases.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by ReFLeX

The line blurs every day, as psychiatric disorders continually turn out to have subtle physiological sources.

Of course, all disorders ultimately have some physiological source.

[luchog]

Originally Posted by ReFLeX

First of all, this still assumes that DID is the underlying cause of your observations. Also, we need not talk about history when we have diagnoses of DID in the present. The Merck Manual says: Source

I'm not sure i necessarily agree with Merck that the number is that high. My guess would be closer to half of that. I do know several people, however, that show classic characteristics of severe DID; only one of whom has ever seen a therapist. I've also noticed that DID and PTSD diagnoses seem to be more or less concurrent.

The disorder appears to have been first described as a discrete class of phenomena during and after WWI, and was part of the DSM-1, classed as a "hysterical personality disorder". The earliest clear description was in Germany in 1791.

Quote:

So why don't we see this in Japanese or Australian psychiatric hospitals?

We don't?

A brief Google search turned up:
http://www.sidran.org/refs/ref4.html
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...9.1998.00394.x
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
http://www.siari.co.uk/Dissociation/...dults-2005.htm
[url]http://www.empty-memories.nl/abstracts_N.html[/ur] (mostly Norwegian studies)

Interestingly, in Japan, Dissociative disorders appear to be more often linked with eating disorders and addiction.

Quote:

Thirdly, then, what ARE your historical examples, so that we can determine why they couldn't simply be attributed to schizophrenia or something likewise.

Diagnosing anything from a distance is iffy at best. I'm sure many examples would be easy to dismiss as schizophrenic if one denies the existence of DID. I'm not going to bother digging through my books, because I have no doubt that you or others will simply do just that.

However, here's a list of references: http://www.fortea.us/english/psiquiatria/history.htm

Many historical descriptions of "demon" or "spirit" possession (particularly many of the Greek examples) bear strong resemblance to currently DID diagnoses. And it's highly likely that some "true" mediums, ie. those who were not intentionally deceptive charlatans, may have been DID sufferers as well.

It's generally accepted by DID researchers that many cases have been incorrectly diagnosed as schizophrenia; often "atypical" schizophrenia, in part because of the lack of response to normal treatments. The key difference now know is the lack of "affect" abnormalities characteristic of schizophrenia.

Quote:

There is no such known physical etiology for schizophrenia. There are no physical tests for schizophrenia. We cannot even confirm that the diagnostic category of "schizophrenic" includes only one condition instead of many.

Sorry, that was poor wording. While the actual mechanism itself is still incompletely understood; the evidence for a physical etiology and genetic predisposition is clear. Particularly since schizophrenic and schizotypal disorders follow a distinct onset and development pattern, and significant changes in cerebral functioning have been measured. Unfortunately, I don't have an online source, and all of my print references are in storage. (I really need to get a bigger apartment so I can have all this crap closer to hand.)

But PET scans appear to show distinct functional abnormalities in the limbic system and frontal lobes. Should the actual mechanism be determined, that would provide a clear way to separate schizoid disorders from dissociative ones.

http://www.studentbmj.com/issues/00/12/news/443a.php

[Soapy Sam]

Custom and legal structure assumes 1 body= 1 person.
Split brain research (Dement et al) implies otherwise to a limited extent.
There clearly are situations where one part of the brain "knows" something another part has no access to.
So far as I know , such situations are all artificially contrived in the lab.
For legal purposes we must suppose someone with access to his senses is aware of what he is doing .
Is there any objective way to differentiate between someone who claims he is not the personality who did something from someone who has merely changed his mind about what he wanted? Failing such a test, it's hard to see how we could take the former claim seriously.

ETA- Jeff Corey just reminded me it was Roger Sperry, not William Dement, who pioneered split brain surgery.

[Melendwyr]

Originally Posted by luchog

Sorry, that was poor wording. While the actual mechanism itself is still incompletely understood; the evidence for a physical etiology and genetic predisposition is clear.

Genetic predisposition, yes, but we have no idea what's responsible. Evidence for a physical etiology, no.

Quote:

Particularly since schizophrenic and schizotypal disorders follow a distinct onset and development pattern, and significant changes in cerebral functioning have been measured.

"Significant changes in cerebral functioning" encompasses almost anything. If the changes are consistent, and detectable, that would constitute a way to physically test for schizophrenia. There is no physical test for schizophrenia - ergo, your statement is grossly misleading at best.

Quote:

But PET scans appear to show distinct functional abnormalities in the limbic system and frontal lobes.

Which vary wildly from patient to patient, and from moment to moment. A functional abnormality says nothing about the ultimate cause of the problem - a phobic's rapidly beating heart is a functional abnormality, but there's nothing wrong with the heart.

Quote:

Should the actual mechanism be determined, that would provide a clear way to separate schizoid disorders from dissociative ones.

You're assuming that a mechanism would indicate such a distinction.

More to the point, you're simply accepting as axiomatic that these conditions have distinct physical etiologies, then accepting that certain broad and extremely vague assertions define those etiologies. That's poor reasoning and poor science.

[Melendwyr]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

Of course, all disorders ultimately have some physiological source.

Quibble with words. All behavior ultimately has some physiological sources - that does not mean that malfunctioning is due to malfunctioning physiology.

[Art Vandelay]

It seems to me that you'r the one quibbling. How do you distinguish between a "real" disorder, and someone just making bad choices? Some cases are more clear cut than others, but it seems to me that eventually you're going to get into arbitrary categorization.

[luchog]

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Custom and legal structure assumes 1 body= 1 person.
[...]
Is there any objective way to differentiate between someone who claims he is not the personality who did something from someone who has merely changed his mind about what he wanted? Failing such a test, it's hard to see how we could take the former claim seriously.

A better question is, why is it necessary to differentiate?

There is nothing about it that would reduce culpability for an act such as, say, a murder, rape, or armed robbery. Even if a "different personality" committed the violent act, it's still that person that committed the act, and still requires a response. At the very least, they should be treated like any other violent, mentally ill individual. From what I've read, Billy Milligan got off rather easier than he should have, IMO.

I don't buy the woo-woo claim that the different identities are individual, discrete persons in their own right; the evidence simply doesn't support it, nor does my own personal experience. They are all aspects of the same person; merely exaggerated.

Ultimately, that's the nature of most psychological disorders: normal, common behaviours exaggerated to pathological levels.