Who to thank and who to blame

Stitch · 4th January 2006, 04:33 AM

The recent tragedy in a mine in the USA caused me to ponder:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4579754.stm

When the relatives thought the miners had been saved they all went to church to pray to god and thank him for delivering them rather than showing their gratitude to those who risked their own lives in the rescue. However, when it turns out this is a terrible communication cock up, they aren't back in the church cursing god for not saving them. Now they are blaming the rescuers and the mine company. It just seems odd to me that you thank god for the good but don't hold him accountable for the bad.

Beerina · 4th January 2006, 07:40 AM

I hold Him accountable.

He knew this was all gonna happen eventually as a consequence of His actions. Even if he instituted randomness that even He could not predict, He knew stuff like this would be highly likely.

HeyLeroy · 4th January 2006, 12:33 PM

My heart goes out to the families, certainly.

But watching the news I was struck by this very same thing. Lots of "Praise the Lord, it's a miracle" at first, then later, anger at the company and the guv. It was reported that there were fistfights at the church after the announcement.

That anger and hurt is understandable, especially after two days on an emotional roller-coaster.

But God's got it easy. Praise for the good and an almost infinite number of scapegoats to suck up the blame when things go sour.

(ETA) Good gig, that.

roger · 4th January 2006, 12:46 PM

Not everyone.

Quote:

'Whatever the hell did God do for us?”' a young man shouted in reply, Mr. Casto said

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../BNStory/Front

Moon-Spinner · 4th January 2006, 01:28 PM

It appears that a few of them are going to rethink their opinions of God, at least I haven't read yet of anybody blaming Satan, or the ACLU!

And in all the articles I've read, not one mention of thanks for the efforts of the recuers who work around the clock. No matter what the outcome is, these are the people who should be looked up to.

CFLarsen · 5th January 2006, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Stitch

When the relatives thought the miners had been saved they all went to church to pray to god and thank him for delivering them rather than showing their gratitude to those who risked their own lives in the rescue. However, when it turns out this is a terrible communication cock up, they aren't back in the church cursing god for not saving them. Now they are blaming the rescuers and the mine company. It just seems odd to me that you thank god for the good but don't hold him accountable for the bad.

Rule #1 in Religion: "Thou Shall Not Employ Rational Thinking".

jjramsey · 5th January 2006, 04:10 AM

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

Rule #1 in Religion: "Thou Shall Not Employ Rational Thinking".

Rule #1 in Village Atheism: "Thou Shalt Use Strawmen Arguments About Religion."

CFLarsen · 5th January 2006, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by jjramsey

Rule #1 in Village Atheism: "Thou Shalt Use Strawmen Arguments About Religion."

What do you mean?

jjramsey · 5th January 2006, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

What do you mean?

Take a look at the history of the medieval Scholasticists, or even more recent theologians. Take a look at the long thread, "Is religion slowing us down?" You may not agree with their conclusions, but the idea that they are not employing rational thinking is simply false. What you just did above was to parrot a bit of conventional wisdom that circulates amongst atheists and agnostics, without regard to its accuracy.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 5th January 2006, 09:32 AM

I don't think Claus was referring to professional theologians, though even in that case I have some trouble matching theology with rational thinking.

~~ Paul

jjramsey · 5th January 2006, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I don't think Claus was referring to professional theologians, though even in that case I have some trouble matching theology with rational thinking.

Well, he said "Rule #1 in Religion," so I figured he was referring to religion in general, not merely to common popular expressions of it. I'd also have to wonder what he'd make of the Kalama Sutra:

Quote:

It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them.

(Thanks to Ryokan, our resident Buddhist, for that tidbit.)

I don't think that one can get around that Claus made a gross and gratuitious overgeneralization.

bozothedeathmachine · 5th January 2006, 09:49 AM

A wonderful quote from the excrable movie "End of Days"

Quote:

Something good happens, it's "His will." Something bad happens, "He moves in mysterious ways."

That kind of thinking precludes accountability.

Edit: Formatting

Jorghnassen · 5th January 2006, 12:07 PM

Easy, you thank God and blame the Devil. Or, alternatively, you can thank Jesus, but somehow, though the Holy Spirit is one and the same as God/Jesus in the Trinity, nobody ever thanks him/her/it... I think the Holy Spirit needs better PR.

/now where to fit the Eastern dragon in all this?

Fungrim · 5th January 2006, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Jorghnassen

Easy, you thank God and blame the Devil.

Nah, personally I thank the IPU and blame the FSM. Easy.

Tricky · 5th January 2006, 12:54 PM

I'm quite sure that in the end, the families will not blame God. You can't sue God.

Melendwyr · 5th January 2006, 12:57 PM

Theologians try to build steady and immutable walls atop a foundation of sand. I think we can safely say that they're not bothering with architecture.

4th January 2006, 07:40 AM	#2
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	I hold Him accountable. He knew this was all gonna happen eventually as a consequence of His actions. Even if he instituted randomness that even He could not predict, He knew stuff like this would be highly likely.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

4th January 2006, 12:33 PM	#3
HeyLeroy Vegan Cannibal Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Going off the rails on the Crazy Train. Posts: 5,565	My heart goes out to the families, certainly. But watching the news I was struck by this very same thing. Lots of "Praise the Lord, it's a miracle" at first, then later, anger at the company and the guv. It was reported that there were fistfights at the church after the announcement. That anger and hurt is understandable, especially after two days on an emotional roller-coaster. But God's got it easy. Praise for the good and an almost infinite number of scapegoats to suck up the blame when things go sour. (ETA) Good gig, that.
	__________________ Cows are in large numbers, and do not serve any other purpose, other than to eat grass, and moo -- makaya325 I ♥ my kids. I ♠ my dog. I ♣ my baby Harp Seal.

5th January 2006, 12:43 AM	#6
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Originally Posted by Stitch When the relatives thought the miners had been saved they all went to church to pray to god and thank him for delivering them rather than showing their gratitude to those who risked their own lives in the rescue. However, when it turns out this is a terrible communication cock up, they aren't back in the church cursing god for not saving them. Now they are blaming the rescuers and the mine company. It just seems odd to me that you thank god for the good but don't hold him accountable for the bad. Rule #1 in Religion: "Thou Shall Not Employ Rational Thinking".
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

5th January 2006, 04:10 AM	#7
jjramsey Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,436	Originally Posted by CFLarsen Rule #1 in Religion: "Thou Shall Not Employ Rational Thinking". Rule #1 in Village Atheism: "Thou Shalt Use Strawmen Arguments About Religion."
	__________________ "One criticism I have with freethought publications in the field of religion is that so often they are wrong; they are inaccurate. . . . The point I am trying to make is that to be authentic freethinkers, to be authentic truth seekers, we must draw on the best information available to substantiate our claims." -- Gerald LaRue, Freethinkers United! Conference 1997, Orlando, Florida

5th January 2006, 06:02 AM	#8
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Originally Posted by jjramsey Rule #1 in Village Atheism: "Thou Shalt Use Strawmen Arguments About Religion." What do you mean?
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

4th January 2006, 04:33 AM	#1
Stitch Muse Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the fence Posts: 672	Who to thank and who to blame The recent tragedy in a mine in the USA caused me to ponder: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4579754.stm When the relatives thought the miners had been saved they all went to church to pray to god and thank him for delivering them rather than showing their gratitude to those who risked their own lives in the rescue. However, when it turns out this is a terrible communication cock up, they aren't back in the church cursing god for not saving them. Now they are blaming the rescuers and the mine company. It just seems odd to me that you thank god for the good but don't hold him accountable for the bad.

4th January 2006, 12:46 PM	#4
roger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 11,021	Not everyone. Quote: 'Whatever the hell did God do for us?”' a young man shouted in reply, Mr. Casto said http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../BNStory/Front

4th January 2006, 01:28 PM	#5
Moon-Spinner Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Within a star too far to dream of Posts: 1,483	It appears that a few of them are going to rethink their opinions of God, at least I haven't read yet of anybody blaming Satan, or the ACLU! And in all the articles I've read, not one mention of thanks for the efforts of the recuers who work around the clock. No matter what the outcome is, these are the people who should be looked up to.

5th January 2006, 08:20 AM	#9
jjramsey Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,436	Originally Posted by CFLarsen What do you mean? Take a look at the history of the medieval Scholasticists, or even more recent theologians. Take a look at the long thread, "Is religion slowing us down?" You may not agree with their conclusions, but the idea that they are not employing rational thinking is simply false. What you just did above was to parrot a bit of conventional wisdom that circulates amongst atheists and agnostics, without regard to its accuracy.
	__________________ "One criticism I have with freethought publications in the field of religion is that so often they are wrong; they are inaccurate. . . . The point I am trying to make is that to be authentic freethinkers, to be authentic truth seekers, we must draw on the best information available to substantiate our claims." -- Gerald LaRue, Freethinkers United! Conference 1997, Orlando, Florida

5th January 2006, 09:32 AM	#10
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 18,592	I don't think Claus was referring to professional theologians, though even in that case I have some trouble matching theology with rational thinking. ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny

5th January 2006, 09:45 AM	#11
jjramsey Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,436	Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos I don't think Claus was referring to professional theologians, though even in that case I have some trouble matching theology with rational thinking. Well, he said "Rule #1 in Religion," so I figured he was referring to religion in general, not merely to common popular expressions of it. I'd also have to wonder what he'd make of the Kalama Sutra: Quote: It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them. (Thanks to Ryokan, our resident Buddhist, for that tidbit.) I don't think that one can get around that Claus made a gross and gratuitious overgeneralization.
	__________________ "One criticism I have with freethought publications in the field of religion is that so often they are wrong; they are inaccurate. . . . The point I am trying to make is that to be authentic freethinkers, to be authentic truth seekers, we must draw on the best information available to substantiate our claims." -- Gerald LaRue, Freethinkers United! Conference 1997, Orlando, Florida

5th January 2006, 09:49 AM	#12
bozothedeathmachine Muse Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Zürich Posts: 626	A wonderful quote from the excrable movie "End of Days" Quote: Something good happens, it's "His will." Something bad happens, "He moves in mysterious ways." That kind of thinking precludes accountability. Edit: Formatting
	Last edited by bozothedeathmachine; 5th January 2006 at 09:54 AM.

5th January 2006, 12:07 PM	#13
Jorghnassen Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The realm of ideas Posts: 3,881	Easy, you thank God and blame the Devil. Or, alternatively, you can thank Jesus, but somehow, though the Holy Spirit is one and the same as God/Jesus in the Trinity, nobody ever thanks him/her/it... I think the Holy Spirit needs better PR. /now where to fit the Eastern dragon in all this?

5th January 2006, 12:50 PM	#14
Fungrim Thinker Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: In a dark swedish mind. Posts: 149	Originally Posted by Jorghnassen Easy, you thank God and blame the Devil. Nah, personally I thank the IPU and blame the FSM. Easy.
	__________________ "Imagination is cheap, as long as you don't have to worry about the details." - Daniel C. Dennet

5th January 2006, 12:54 PM	#15
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,359	I'm quite sure that in the end, the families will not blame God. You can't sue God.

5th January 2006, 12:57 PM	#16
Melendwyr Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,064	Theologians try to build steady and immutable walls atop a foundation of sand. I think we can safely say that they're not bothering with architecture.
Melendwyr Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,064	__________________ Arguing with the irrational is like giving medicine to a dead man or preaching to the damned. "Dance with us, GIR! Dance with us into oblivion!" "Oddly, stating that one has no creed assures that one has no creed." -- Upchurch "I am the only one here using reason." -- Interesting Ian "You cannot respond to the arguments of TIMECUBE!" -- TimeCube guy