Discussion of Multiple Personality Disorder

[Fade]

As inspired by another thread, here's one where we can discuss the psychological phenomena known as Multiple Personality Disorder, or more accurately, Dissociative Identity Disorder.


The way the movies and television portrays this condition is not really very accurate as to what is really gone on in the mind of a dissociative. So, the perception people have about the disorder would lead to them believing it doesn't exist. And, they are right, in that sense. A dissociative doesn't have dozens of different people living inside of them with different memories and feelings. At least, I have never met anyone who genuinely suffers from that condition.

In fact, the majority of cases in which a person was displaying such tendencies, the psychologist was to blame. I recall several cases where a person would claim MPD as a defense, only to have the psychologist expose them as frauds.

Here is how it was done:

Person makes the claim.
Person undergoes counseling to verify.
Person is pounded under scrutiny to see if they personalities are consistent.
Psychologist drops hints, very subtle, pointing to the way a "real" dissociative acts.
Person begins taking on these traits.

Voila, person exposed.

However, there is a real condition (in my opinion, being that I don't suffer from it, I can never be 100% certain what goes on in the brains of my fellow primates) in which dissociation takes place. This condition is strongly linked to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. It is thought that often an extremely traumatic event can spawn "new" personality. A memory, or entire set of memories, is absolutely repressed within the mind, and the conscious mind has no ability to remember that the events ever took place. This can sometimes bleed over, for lack of a better term, into other aspects of their waking minds.

It can also happen on a more immediate basis. For instance, during a rape, a person can escape from the situation and completely dissociate. The result would be a big blank surrounding the period. Nearly any trauma of severe enough significance can cause this, I have heard statistics citing things like 5% of all the population has suffered this at one point, though I have absolutely no idea if this is true or not, so take that with a grain of salt.

Research suggests that people who do wind up dissociating suffered significant trauma at many different points throughout their childhood. Because of this trauma, the child creates what is called an alternate ego-state. That is, a place where that trauma doesn't exist, and the child is normal and happy. This new ego-state can, and sometimes does, rise when the child grows into an adult. The escape, in some people, can be so severe that they cease to be able to function.

I am sure there is a lot of ground that I didn't cover, but this is because I only have a passing fancy with MPD and DID at all. My specialities (which were schizophrenia, as well as general sociology) had only passing acquaintance with the concept of new personalities (as opposed to hallucination).

For more information, I suggest google.

Or, read things like
http://www.sidran.org/didbr.html
http://www.psycom.net/mchugh.html
http://www.healthubs.com/dissociative/

And of course, our friends at ReligiousTolerance.org has links to arguments for and against
http://www.religioustolerance.org/mpd_did.htm

[Denise]

Fade, this state of repressed memory, how many people repress and how many don't? How uncommon is it? For me, a traumatic event is etched in my mind and it's hard to forget. Why does one disassociate, and some do not?

[Fade]

Quote:

Why does one disassociate, and some do not?

I don't know for sure.

Perhaps something to do with ones culture. We do a lot to predispose our children to different phobias and disorders. I dare say most psychological problems are either directly or indirectly caused by ones parents. I don't think Freud was 100% off the mark in his musings on the role our parents play in our psychological development.

It seems to me that our minds are much too complex to have evolved a set of instructions along with our intelligence. I think nature granted us only the ability to eat and reproduce, and the rest of our gray matter was pretty much open to whatever environment we happened to live in. I wish I had some big book of statistics telling me who does and who does not begin to dissociate, but I don't. In fact, I have never actually participated directly in either a study involving this disorder, nor was I present during it's treatment.

[BillyJoe]

Fade,

At the age of about two or three, a teenager stubbed out his cigarette on the lower right hand side of my abdomen. I only found this out when, in my own teens, I asked my father how I'd gotten that scar.

Should I be looking for a hidden personality?

Quote:

Originally posted by Denise
Fade, this state of repressed memory, how many people repress and how many don't? How uncommon is it? For me, a traumatic event is etched in my mind and it's hard to forget. Why does one disassociate, and some do not?

NO ONE dissociates from traumatic events. One of our defense mechanisms is to remember traumatic events more clearly, so we can form a strategy if it should happen again. The only way they could be forgotten is if a person's long-term memory is either compromised by physical trauma, or the person is very young and hasn't developed long-term memory yet.

Quote:

Originally posted by Fade

It can also happen on a more immediate basis. For instance, during a rape, a person can escape from the situation and completely dissociate. The result would be a big blank surrounding the period. Nearly any trauma of severe enough significance can cause this, I have heard statistics citing things like 5% of all the population has suffered this at one point, though I have absolutely no idea if this is true or not, so take that with a grain of salt.

It's important to draw a distinction between people who dissociate from a memory and those who simply decline to talk about it. This is especially true when sexual assault is involved. Also, I would be interested to know how many of those 5% suffered physical trauma that could account for their "dissociation".

Quote:

Research suggests that people who do wind up dissociating suffered significant trauma at many different points throughout their childhood. Because of this trauma, the child creates what is called an alternate ego-state. That is, a place where that trauma doesn't exist, and the child is normal and happy. This new ego-state can, and sometimes does, rise when the child grows into an adult. The escape, in some people, can be so severe that they cease to be able to function.

I don't know to what research you are referring, but I'm skeptical about its quality. The idea that people can dissociate from trauma is based mainly on anecdotes and folklore. Pop psychologists have been reinforcing this belief in each other for years.

Any study that involves memories of a KNOWN, VERIFIABLE traumatic event (such as the kidnapped schoolchildren a while back who were buried underground) has shown that memory of the event was very clear and relatively accurate. In the case of the kidnapped children, NOT ONE of them repressed the memory. If the phenomenon is as widespread as some psychologists say, then why didn't at least one of them "dissociate"?

Most anecdotes of repressed memory are based on ASSUMED, UNFALSIFIABLE traumatic events, such as alleged sexual abuse before the age of three.

[Fade]

There's the problem aggle, it's not always possible to verify events.

As with most things in psychology, take it with a grain of salt.

I'm pretty open to the idea that MPD may be real, but I don't think it's possible to prove or disprove it. It's all about what's going on in the mind of the "victim". In a particular case you might be able to show that MPD is being faked, but that wouldn't prove there are no real cases.

I have only read popular accounts of MPD, but what seems to be a common thread is repeated exposure to the same traumatic event such as beatings or molestation. The victim knows what 's coming and knows there's nothing he/she can do about it. The dissociation supposedly is a coping mechanism for escaping from a familiar trauma which the victim is powerless to avoid.

BTW, is there such a thing as NPD (No Personality Disorder)? I think I might have it

[Fade]

I have noticed more Washingtonians lately!

Seems there are, what, 3 of us now?

It's not a problem with us.

Quote:

Originally posted by Fade
I have noticed more Washingtonians lately!

Seems there are, what, 3 of us now?

Could be just one - a core and two alters.

[BillyJoe]

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Fade,

At the age of about two or three, a teenager stubbed out his cigarette on the lower right hand side of my abdomen. I only found this out when, in my own teens, I asked my father how I'd gotten that scar.

Should I be looking for a hidden personality?

You didn't reply so you probably thought my question wasn't serious but.....

My point was that that cigarette burning into my abdomen at age two or three must have bloody well hurt. Yet I don't remember it. But it couldn't have been so bad that I would have repressed it. So what gives?

I was mistaken when I said memories of traumatic events were "very clear and relatively accurate". Studies show they are NOT accurate, but tend to become distorted over time. However, the basic elements are not forgotten.

The studies in question were discussed in these articles:

C.P. Malmquist, "Children who Witness Parental Murder: Post Traumatic Aspects"

L. C. Terr, "Chowchilla Revisited: Effects of Psychic Trauma Four Years After a School Bus Kidnapping"

It might be difficult to find the articles themselves, but there are references to them all over the internet.

[Fade]

Quote:

My point was that that cigarette burning into my abdomen at age two or three must have bloody well hurt. Yet I don't remember it. But it couldn't have been so bad that I would have repressed it. So what gives?

There's your answer.

[Denise]

Quote:

Originally posted by Fade


There's your answer.

Yes, but isn't it true that it is currently believed by many of the professionals that a person cannot remember back to the age of two? That what a person may feel are memories of that time are actually created memories from family members telling the subject about certain events?

[BillyJoe]

But I do have memories from the age of two or three.

We arrived in Australia when I was about two and a half and I remember the immigration camp especially the shower sheds, the smell of the glycerine soap.....and the two young girls from the camp who used to delight in washing me

The cigarette incident happened later after we had moved into rented accomodation. It was the landlord's son who perpretated the act.

[Jeff Corey]

Most adults don't remember many events from before the age of 5. This is called "infant amnesia" and may be due to the slow maturation of the hippocampus.The puzzling thing is that 5 year olds can remember events from the ages of 3 and 4.

Serious memory researchers like Beth Loftus doubt that traumatic memories are repressed, while clinicians are more likely to believe so (without any hard data).

[Denise]

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyJoe
But I do have memories from the age of two or three.

We arrived in Australia when I was about two and a half and I remember the immigration camp especially the shower sheds, the smell of the glycerine soap.....and the two young girls from the camp who used to delight in washing me

The cigarette incident happened later after we had moved into rented accomodation. It was the landlord's son who perpretated the act.

I have a memory from about 2 as well. But it seems that many of the researchers feel that an adult cannot have any memories of being two years old. I'm not quite sure why that is, and that's why I posted the query.

[Fade]

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyJoe
But I do have memories from the age of two or three.

We arrived in Australia when I was about two and a half and I remember the immigration camp especially the shower sheds, the smell of the glycerine soap.....and the two young girls from the camp who used to delight in washing me

The cigarette incident happened later after we had moved into rented accomodation. It was the landlord's son who perpretated the act.

The mind is funny like that.

I remember how my mother smelled when I was young. I asked her about it one day and she said she was particularly fond of a sort of lavender soap that she had found on sale, so she bought a LARGE amount of it and used it for years and years until she ran out and couldn't find it again.

What you have to understand about memory is that it's all associative. Think of our brains as a sophisticated version of winzip, that uses files all over your computer to zip things down into virtually non-existent files, that nevertheless can inflate to something quite large. We remember things through a filter of emotion and previous associations. So, something which ALREADY associates strongly will more often be remembered more clearly.

For instance, I don't like baseball. I have attended maybe three games in my life. I don't remember many specifics of them, other than the teams playing and having my neck sunburned at one. However, I have been to literally hundreds of symphonies during my life, and I can distinctly remember most of them. I can remember what they were playing, how specific movements worked, where my seating was, how it effected the sound I was getting, and if a particular favourite of mine was highlighted that night.

This is because I already have a large background in symphonic music!

For early childhood memories, it's often roll of the dice as to what you will and will not remember. Also, there is no single defining event that will give you a mental illness, it's almost always the result of MANY things.

Quote:

Yes, but isn't it true that it is currently believed by many of the professionals that a person cannot remember back to the age of two? That what a person may feel are memories of that time are actually created memories from family members telling the subject about certain events?

TOO SPOOKY!

I had written up a few paragraphs about this exact topic under what you quoted and decided to snip it all because I was tired at the time and it probably wouldn't have been very concise!

Most "memories" we have from early childhood are, indeed, very fragmented actual memories liberally soaked with what our parents have told us. This is often why child-informed adoptees often feel as if they have no sense of cultural belonging. They don't have anyone telling them stories of their early childhood. In a sense, they never had one!

[BillyJoe]

Quote:

Originally posted by Fade
What you have to understand about memory is that it's all associative. Think of our brains as a sophisticated version of winzip, that uses files all over your computer to zip things down into virtually non-existent files, that nevertheless can inflate to something quite large. We remember things through a filter of emotion and previous associations. So, something which ALREADY associates strongly will more often be remembered more clearly.

This sounds right.

I was probably washed by those young girls every day and smelled the soap every day but I can remember only one occasion when this actually happened. This "occasion" could have been a compilation of all the times that it happened. The repeated occurrences could have served to consolidate the memory.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

My family was involved in a bad automobile accident when I was 2 1/2. I can remember various things about the hospital room. I can remember singing with my dad. So I haven't repressed all of that event.

Can't remember much else until about five.

~~ Paul

[sickstan]

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyJoe
You didn't reply so you probably thought my question wasn't serious but.....

My point was that that cigarette burning into my abdomen at age two or three must have bloody well hurt. Yet I don't remember it. But it couldn't have been so bad that I would have repressed it. So what gives?

Childhood is full of memory holes. The fact that you were 2 or 3 years old lends credence to the normal amnesia of early childhood. Do many of you remember getting that injury that caused that scar over your eyebrow. Most likely, you remember only that someone told you that you were jumping on the couch and fell onto the cocktail table, eyebrow first. That you actually remember the pain or the circumstances of this incidence is uncommon.

[sickstan]

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyJoe
This sounds right.

I was probably washed by those young girls every day and smelled the soap every day but I can remember only one occasion when this actually happened. This "occasion" could have been a compilation of all the times that it happened. The repeated occurrences could have served to consolidate the memory.

Smells are our deepest and most persistent memories. I can still go back to my first grade school year in Taiwan simply from smelling one of those erasers. This is probably because the hippocampus is adjacent and shares some function with the olefactory cortex in the temporal lobe.

Sometimes music has the same effect. Play any 80s or 90s station and you can begin recalling events that happened when that song was being played to death on local radio stations. Whenever I think of the song "Pluckles" on the violin, I see aquariums filled with swordtails, as I got my first aquarium at the time I was learning that song.

[Dancing David]

The problem with repressed memories is confabulation, our brains make up stuff to fill in the holes in perceptual reality, look through just one eye, do you see a hole where the optic nerve goes through the retina? A lot of people who suffer head trauma have confabulated memories of the time prior to the accident.

I can't remember where but I remember reading that there was a reseach study that showed sixty percent of repressed tauma being collaborated by an adult who knew of the event but didn't discuss it, of course the study did not say how amny were in the interviews.

In my personal experience the memories were there, I just let them live side by side with the other memories, I am totaly against the use of hypnosis in therapt except to induce relaxation.

Peace
dancing David

[BillyJoe]

Quote:

Originally posted by sickstan
Childhood is full of memory holes.

No disagreement here. In fact, the further you go back the more holes than memory. And the first couple of years is one big black hole.

Quote:

Originally posted by sickstan
Do many of you remember getting that injury that caused that scar over your eyebrow. Most likely, you remember only that someone told you that you were jumping on the couch and fell onto the cocktail table, eyebrow first. That you actually remember the pain or the circumstances of this incidence is uncommon.

Remembering pain is uncommon? That's interesting. I just assumed that I should remember something that was as painful as a cigarette burn. Apparently I screamed my friggin' head off and remained unconsolable for hours afterwards.

[BillyJoe]

Quote:

Originally posted by sickstan
Smells are our deepest and most persistent memories.

Hot freshly baked bread.

Quote:

Originally posted by sickstan
Sometimes music has the same effect.

There was a song called "Freedom" about twelve years ago while I was renovating my present work place before starting off on my own. Does anyone remember that song.


BTW, sickstan, thanks for your responses.

[BillyJoe]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
The problem with repressed memories is confabulation, our brains make up stuff to fill in the holes in perceptual reality, look through just one eye, do you see a hole where the optic nerve goes through the retina?

Sort of, but I'm not sure that you should use the phrase "fill in" without using the "scare quotes". Nothing is actually "filled in". But probably you understand this?

As a matter of interest regarding the blind spot.......



Close your left eye and stare at the cross mark in the diagram with your right eye. Off to the right you should be able to see the spot. Don't LOOK at it; just notice that it is there off to the right Now slowly move toward the computer screen. Keep looking at the cross mark while you move. At a particular distance, probably a foot or so, the spot will disappear (it will reappear again if you move even closer). The spot disappears because it falls on the optic nerve head, the hole in the photoreceptor sheet.

[Dancing David]

Look at a table cloth, look at wall paper. Use one eye, where is the hole, it is about the sixe of your fist. Your brain makes up the stuff that you see there.

Peace
dancing David

[BillyJoe]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
Look at a table cloth, look at wall paper. Use one eye, where is the hole, it is about the sixe of your fist. Your brain makes up the stuff that you see there.

David,

One part of the brain discriminates shapes and another part of the brain discriminates colors. This gives us colored shapes - like your rectangular blue tablecloth. There is no information coming from the blind spot so it doesn't affect the outcome. In other words the brain doesn't "make up"or "fill in" because it doesn't need to - an absence of information doesn't have to be accounted for.

BillyJoe

[DrMatt]

I could believe the notion of something like MPD as a result of physical brain trauma. MPD as a collateral to PTSD still seems to me like a learned behavior like being-hypnotized.

[Fade]

Quote:

Originally posted by DrMatt
I could believe the notion of something like MPD as a result of physical brain trauma. MPD as a collateral to PTSD still seems to me like a learned behavior like being-hypnotized.

Depends on how you define "learned"

Do you mean taught by an outside agency? Then no.

Do you mean internalized to the point of disorder? Then yes.

The second way is how quite a few of our disorders start.

[Dancing David]

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyJoe
David,

One part of the brain discriminates shapes and another part of the brain discriminates colors. This gives us colored shapes - like your rectangular blue tablecloth. There is no information coming from the blind spot so it doesn't affect the outcome. In other words the brain doesn't "make up"or "fill in" because it doesn't need to - an absence of information doesn't have to be accounted for.

BillyJoe

What if you look at wallpaper or checkered table cloth, there is no data ... hey are you mocker me? I meant that our brain fill in the checkers for us, it makes them up because they are not percieved in the visual cortex at that locale.

Why should thier be a diagnosis of MPD, it is now DID and therefore not to be used. I still feel that the people I met who thought that they had alters actually had Boderline Disorder.

Peace

[DrMatt]

Quote:

Originally posted by Fade


Depends on how you define "learned"

Do you mean taught by an outside agency? Then no.

Do you mean internalized to the point of disorder? Then yes.

The second way is how quite a few of our disorders start.

Umm, I'm a little unclear on this distinction. Most of what we learn is not ... at least deliberately ... taught by outside agencies. Internalizing to the point of disorder seems to me to be the basis of belief-by-faith, too, yet religion is not currently classified as a disorder. In my lifetime, only the Soviet Union ever did that. So I'm hoping you can go into more detail about this distinction, as it seems quite confusing to me. Perhaps there's a more important distinction than the agent involved?

[Fade]

Quote:

Originally posted by DrMatt


Umm, I'm a little unclear on this distinction. Most of what we learn is not ... at least deliberately ... taught by outside agencies. Internalizing to the point of disorder seems to me to be the basis of belief-by-faith, too, yet religion is not currently classified as a disorder. In my lifetime, only the Soviet Union ever did that. So I'm hoping you can go into more detail about this distinction, as it seems quite confusing to me. Perhaps there's a more important distinction than the agent involved?

Learn by doing, rather than learn by rote.

[BillyJoe]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
What if you look at wallpaper or checkered table cloth, there is no data.....

No, there is no information (data) coming in to the brain from the area of the tablecloth corresponding to the blind spot. That must be clear surely.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
I meant that our brain fill in the checkers for us, it makes them up because they are not percieved in the visual cortex at that locale......

David,

Definitely the brain does not fill in. To say that the brain fills in implies there is a picture in the brain corresponding to the reality out there. This is not the case. This is the old discredited idea of the "Cartesian Theatre". This does not happen.
Features get discriminated in different parts of the brain and there they stay. They do not come together again to form a picture in the brain. There being no picture, there is no need to fill in anything.

Getting it?

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
.....hey are you mocker me?

No, but do you mock me? - I just noticed your signature.

[Dancing David]

I no mocker you I praiser you, great quote, I remove if it doth offend.

Uh, I don't follow your argument, when I took nuero-biology there was a lot of discussion of how the brain does project visual images in the visual cortex, can you point me in the direction of different reseach? There is also this real cool time sharing agreement between the audio-cortex and the visual cortex.

Evilyn Satinoff (nueropsychology). U of I, 1986 said ' and your brain just makes that up'

I didn't mention the Cartesian theater, so where do you come from, always willing to learn more.

I look at the checked cloth with one eye, I don't see a hole where the information is not, why don't I see the hole?

Peace

[BillyJoe]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
I no mocker you I praiser you, great quote, I remove if it doth offend.

No, please leave it. It has only happened once before (with Loki - something to do with p-zombies)

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
Uh, I don't follow your argument, when I took nuero-biology there was a lot of discussion of how the brain does project visual images in the visual cortex.....

If there is a projected image, who is there to see it. And, if there is an eye in there to see it, presumably that eye needs a brain behind it to process the image that it sees. And now I think you can see an infinite regress.
No, different features of the visual input (such as color, hue, brightness, texture, shade, borders, shapes etc) are processed in different parts of the cortex. They do not then come together again to form a picture otherwise......(see above)

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
.....can you point me in the direction of different reseach?

Sadly, no. It is what I've picked up in my reading of the subject.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
Evilyn Satinoff (nueropsychology). U of I, 1986 said ' and your brain just makes that up'

That's a few years ago now. Lot's of progress, especially in this field, in the last 17 years.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
I didn't mention the Cartesian theater, so where do you come from, always willing to learn more.

I thought you were thinking in terms of what is known in some quarters as the "Cartesian Theater". It is more or less what I have described above......the idea that the brain forms a picture - a replica - within it of what it sees out there. This is a false notion.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
I look at the checked cloth with one eye, I don't see a hole where the information is not, why don't I see the hole?

In one part of your cortex your brain has discriminated a shape - the rectangular shape of the tablecloth. Somewhere else, probably close by, your brain has calculated the dimensions of this rectangle. Thus are stored a representation of "rectangle" and "width" and "breadth" - not an actual rectangle of this width and breadth. In another part of your cortex, your brain has discriminated a pattern - the checked pattern contained within the rectangle of the tablecloth. So you have representations for "rectangle", "width", "breadth" and "checked". So what do you see? Well, of course a rectangular tablecloth of a certain width and breadth with a checked pattern. The "hole" is not represented in your brain because there is no information about it reaching your brain.

Getting it now?

regards,
BillyJoe

[Dancing David]

So they now undstand the roots of confabulation a little better, so there is this rectangle image and this checked image in 'abstaracted' areas of the brain. The brain is still filling in the visual gap in the direct perception, and it must feed back with the direct perception or we could not 'see' squares that were imperfect in the tablecloth. Wether our brain 'fills' in the gap or used abstaracted overlays, it is still creating continuity where it does not exist. The persistance of vision and smoothing are well studied phenomena where our brain alters images.

My point is that our brains have a tendencacy to fill in and smoothout perception, just as a person who has a head trauma will have a strong recollection that they were headed to the gas station, while twenty eyewitnesses will say they were headed to the grocery store,

Thi smeans that there is a basis for momories being false even though they are 'valid' memories and not manufactured under hypnosis.

Do you get Cartesian popcorn in the Cartesian theater?

Peace

[BillyJoe]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
The brain is still filling in the visual gap in the direct perception, and it must feed back with the direct perception or we could not 'see' squares that were imperfect in the tablecloth. Wether our brain 'fills' in the gap or used abstaracted overlays, it is still creating continuity where it does not exist.....My point is that our brains have a tendencacy to fill in and smoothout perception.....

Okay, you're not getting it.

I don't mind if you say "filling in"(with the scare quotes in place) but filling in is wrong.
My point is that there is no picture in the brain. There is no picture that requires filling in of the details. There is no theatre in there. And....

Quote:

Originally posted by Dancing David
Do you get Cartesian popcorn in the Cartesian theater?

.....there is no popcorn. Sorry.

[Dancing David]

Excuse me Billy Joe but you may be the one who is wrong. The phrase projection is commonly used in discussions of how the brain represents visual material.
I am not talking philosophy here, our brains create a representation of the material that our eyes sense.

You are the one resorting to the notion of 'areas' of the brain that 'represent shapes'. Do you not understand that when I see a triangle there is first the raw sensation, this is then processed by the visual cortex to create a represnetation of the perception, where I percieve the details of the field and the details of the percieved object lying on the field, that is then interpreted by the frontal lobe as a triangle. You seem to be saying that there is a visual area that percieves a triangle?

So whats your source?Did you read it where? I may be out of college seventeen years but I can go to journals of psychology and neuro-psychiatry. Was your study making reference to people who have brain truama and have difficulty pointing out different shapes? This is very different from the ability of my brain to process visual information.


Peace

edited: to remove my cranky attitude!