Hamas and the vote

Almo · 17th January 2006, 02:06 PM

When Democracy is demanded in a country, it is a demand that the people of that country vote for whom they want in power. To then demand that certain people are not allowed to run for office, is to make a mockery of the first demand.

If it's okay to make demands upon another country regarding whom it elects to power, I'd guess that many countries would have made a huge ruckus about George running for president again in 2004.

Mycroft · 17th January 2006, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Almo

When Democracy is demanded in a country, it is a demand that the people of that country vote for whom they want in power. To then demand that certain people are not allowed to run for office, is to make a mockery of the first demand.

If it's okay to make demands upon another country regarding whom it elects to power, I'd guess that many countries would have made a huge ruckus about George running for president again in 2004.

I dunno, after WWII the Nazi party wasn't allowed on the ballot in Germany.

As far as I know, however, Hamas is on the ballot everywhere except in East Jerusalem, which Israel annexed. It’s something of a concession to allow those Palestinians to vote at all.

Tmy · 17th January 2006, 05:29 PM

"annexed" + "concession". Nice spin. Do you write for Foxnews?

Mycroft · 17th January 2006, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Tmy

"annexed" + "concession". Nice spin. Do you write for Foxnews?

It's been annexed for a long time. The logical thing would be not to have Palestinian elections in Israeli territory at all. As it is, apparantly the Palestinians in East Jerusalem get to vote in both Palestinian and Israeli elections.

David Swidler · 18th January 2006, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by Tmy

"annexed" + "concession". Nice spin. Do you write for Foxnews?

It's a concession in that it's a softening of the official position. The official position is, and has been since 1967, that Jerusalem is the indivisible capital of Israel.

The citizenship of residents of East Jerusalem (and other occupied areas that will remiain under Israeli control) is one of the (admittedly low-priority) issues pending resolution under any final status agreement.

zenith-nadir · 18th January 2006, 05:24 AM

The really sad part is the best alternative the Palestinians can field against the corruption, disarray and chaos of Fatah is a militant Islamic terror organization recognized as such by the US, EU, Canada and Israel. This choice will only alienate the Palestinians further as most governments will not deal with a Palestinian government comprised of a militant Islamic terror organization nor will they send aid to it.

Additionally having Hamas run for government is a direct contravention of the Oslo Agreement that the Palestinian Authority agreed to. Annex 2, Article III (1995) outlines eligibility for PA elected office:

Quote:

The nomination of any candidates, parties or coalitions will be refused, and such nomination or registration once made will be canceled, if such candidates, parties or coalitions:

(1) commit or advocate racism; or

(2) pursue the implementation of their aims by unlawful or nondemocratic means.

Well Hamas is just about as unlawful and racist as one can get on this little blue planet of ours.

But it goes deeper than that.

Quote:

Jan. 17, 2006 21:10

PA election observers warned away

Ten days ago a fax was received from the Al-Aqsa Brigades in Jenin recommending that international observers of the Palestinian elections stay away. Two weeks ago a Nablus hotel owner where the observers intended to stay was threatened if he hosted them. Less than three weeks ago an Italian aide to a European parliamentary delegation was kidnapped in the Gaza Strip and released hours later.

For those who do not know the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades belong to the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority Fatah.

Fatah on one side....Hamas on the other.

Mycroft · 18th January 2006, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by David Swidler

It's a concession in that it's a softening of the official position...

Yeah, that's what I meant to say. Thanks for the clarification.

The real issue isn't if Hamas can be on the ballot or not, but that nobody can be on the ballot that isn't a terrorist. If some non-militant business owner were to run on a platform of, This conflict is killing us, let's end it, and by the way I have a few good ideas on how to improve out economy and provide better social services... he'd get himself killed.

Quote:

Gaza gunmen reject storing arms for vote: minister

GAZA (Reuters) - Militants in Gaza have rejected a
Palestinian Authority plan to put their weapons in storage during next week's parliamentary election as a way to reduce the risk of violence, the Interior Minister said on Monday.

Fears of chaos during the January 25 ballot are strong in the
Gaza Strip, where lawlessness has grown since
Israel's withdrawal last September intensified a power struggle among armed factions and security forces.

Palestinian Interior Minister Nasser Yousef said a proposal had been made for factions in Gaza to collect their own weapons just before the ballot and put them into a storage area to which they would have one key and the Palestinian Authority another.

"But they rejected the proposal," Yousef he told reporters.

Between warning away observers and refusing to set aside guns to intimidate people, this isn't looking very democratic.

Almo · 18th January 2006, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Between warning away observers and refusing to set aside guns to intimidate people, this isn't looking very democratic.

This is true, but in my opinion is a seperate issue.

If they agreed to the clause in the Oslo accord, that's another issue as well. But it appears as if the Oslo accords are toast anyway.

Mycroft · 18th January 2006, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Almo

This is true, but in my opinion is a seperate issue.

If they agreed to the clause in the Oslo accord, that's another issue as well. But it appears as if the Oslo accords are toast anyway.

Not entirely. If Oslo were completely toast, Israel should re-occupy the areas of Palestinian autonomy and go back to square one.

Which, arguably, might provide a great opportunity to disarm militants, shut down propaganda mills, kick the Hamas supporting teachers out of the UNRWA run schools, reprint their textbooks with all the hate propaganda removed, etc.

zenith-nadir · 18th January 2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Jan 18, 4:11 PM (ET)

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) - Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said Wednesday he'd rather resign than let extremists block his peace agenda, but he expressed hope the Islamic militant group Hamas would moderate its views if it shared power.

Gosh I sure hope Hamas moderates its views if it shares power...otherwise I'll have to resign.

Quote:

Jan 18, 4:11 PM (ET) - (continued)

However, a Hamas leader ruled out talks with Israel and threatened to kidnap Israeli soldiers.

At a campaign rally in Gaza, Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar ruled out negotiations with Israel.

Hamas "is not going to acknowledge the ownership of any inch of Israel on this holy land," he said. "We are not looking to Israel as a partner now or in the future."

Even when the leaders of HAMAS announce publicly they will not moderate their views once in office guys like Abbas and all the other useful idiots around the world disagree with them. It's insane.

zenith-nadir · 19th January 2006, 02:54 AM

Some more news:

Quote:

Jan 19th, 2006

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - The two main contenders in next week's Palestinian parliamentary elections — the ruling Fatah party and Hamas — pledged to avoid violence on voting day and work together afterward, but a Hamas leader ruled out peace talks with Israel.

Is it just me or is it crazy that they have to pledge no violence between Palestinians.

p.s. Hamas just told everyone again they will not moderate their views once in office.

Quote:

Jan 19th, 2006 - (continued)

In Nablus on Wednesday, a dozen Fatah gunmen took over the local court building, demanding that their representative, Jamil Tirawi, be restored to the 21st place on the Fatah voting list after he was dropped to 29th, witnesses said.

Ahhhh...democracy in action....warms my heart.

Quote:

Jan 19th, 2006 - (continued)

In the southern Gaza town of Rafah, a Palestinian was killed when he was shot in the head by Fatah gunmen firing in the air during an election rally, witnesses said

Nothing like firing off a few rounds to show your support for democracy....even if it kills people.

Palestinian militants from the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades hold up their weapons as they stand in front of a campaign poster depicting the jailed Palestinian leader Marwan Barghouthi during a rally in support of Fatah parliamentary candidates in the West Bank city of Nablus January 18, 2006. REUTERS/Eliana Aponte

17th January 2006, 02:06 PM	#1
Almo Masterblazer Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 6,405	Hamas and the vote When Democracy is demanded in a country, it is a demand that the people of that country vote for whom they want in power. To then demand that certain people are not allowed to run for office, is to make a mockery of the first demand. If it's okay to make demands upon another country regarding whom it elects to power, I'd guess that many countries would have made a huge ruckus about George running for president again in 2004.
	__________________ Almo! My Blog "No society ever collapsed because the poor had too much." — LeftySergeant "It may be that there is no body really at rest, to which the places and motions of others may be referred." –Issac Newton in the Principia

17th January 2006, 05:21 PM	#2
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Originally Posted by Almo When Democracy is demanded in a country, it is a demand that the people of that country vote for whom they want in power. To then demand that certain people are not allowed to run for office, is to make a mockery of the first demand. If it's okay to make demands upon another country regarding whom it elects to power, I'd guess that many countries would have made a huge ruckus about George running for president again in 2004. I dunno, after WWII the Nazi party wasn't allowed on the ballot in Germany. As far as I know, however, Hamas is on the ballot everywhere except in East Jerusalem, which Israel annexed. It’s something of a concession to allow those Palestinians to vote at all.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

17th January 2006, 05:29 PM	#3
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	"annexed" + "concession". Nice spin. Do you write for Foxnews?
	__________________ "Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without." -shanek

17th January 2006, 05:34 PM	#4
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Originally Posted by Tmy "annexed" + "concession". Nice spin. Do you write for Foxnews? It's been annexed for a long time. The logical thing would be not to have Palestinian elections in Israeli territory at all. As it is, apparantly the Palestinians in East Jerusalem get to vote in both Palestinian and Israeli elections.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

18th January 2006, 05:24 AM	#6
zenith-nadir Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,500	The really sad part is the best alternative the Palestinians can field against the corruption, disarray and chaos of Fatah is a militant Islamic terror organization recognized as such by the US, EU, Canada and Israel. This choice will only alienate the Palestinians further as most governments will not deal with a Palestinian government comprised of a militant Islamic terror organization nor will they send aid to it. Additionally having Hamas run for government is a direct contravention of the Oslo Agreement that the Palestinian Authority agreed to. Annex 2, Article III (1995) outlines eligibility for PA elected office: Quote: The nomination of any candidates, parties or coalitions will be refused, and such nomination or registration once made will be canceled, if such candidates, parties or coalitions: (1) commit or advocate racism; or (2) pursue the implementation of their aims by unlawful or nondemocratic means. Well Hamas is just about as unlawful and racist as one can get on this little blue planet of ours. But it goes deeper than that. Quote: Jan. 17, 2006 21:10 PA election observers warned away Ten days ago a fax was received from the Al-Aqsa Brigades in Jenin recommending that international observers of the Palestinian elections stay away. Two weeks ago a Nablus hotel owner where the observers intended to stay was threatened if he hosted them. Less than three weeks ago an Italian aide to a European parliamentary delegation was kidnapped in the Gaza Strip and released hours later. For those who do not know the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades belong to the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority Fatah. Fatah on one side....Hamas on the other.
	__________________ The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled. -- Plutarch

18th January 2006, 01:49 AM	#5
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Originally Posted by Tmy "annexed" + "concession". Nice spin. Do you write for Foxnews? It's a concession in that it's a softening of the official position. The official position is, and has been since 1967, that Jerusalem is the indivisible capital of Israel. The citizenship of residents of East Jerusalem (and other occupied areas that will remiain under Israeli control) is one of the (admittedly low-priority) issues pending resolution under any final status agreement.

18th January 2006, 08:32 AM	#7
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Originally Posted by David Swidler It's a concession in that it's a softening of the official position... Yeah, that's what I meant to say. Thanks for the clarification. The real issue isn't if Hamas can be on the ballot or not, but that nobody can be on the ballot that isn't a terrorist. If some non-militant business owner were to run on a platform of, This conflict is killing us, let's end it, and by the way I have a few good ideas on how to improve out economy and provide better social services... he'd get himself killed. Quote: Gaza gunmen reject storing arms for vote: minister GAZA (Reuters) - Militants in Gaza have rejected a Palestinian Authority plan to put their weapons in storage during next week's parliamentary election as a way to reduce the risk of violence, the Interior Minister said on Monday. Fears of chaos during the January 25 ballot are strong in the Gaza Strip, where lawlessness has grown since Israel's withdrawal last September intensified a power struggle among armed factions and security forces. Palestinian Interior Minister Nasser Yousef said a proposal had been made for factions in Gaza to collect their own weapons just before the ballot and put them into a storage area to which they would have one key and the Palestinian Authority another. "But they rejected the proposal," Yousef he told reporters. Between warning away observers and refusing to set aside guns to intimidate people, this isn't looking very democratic.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

18th January 2006, 10:50 AM	#8
Almo Masterblazer Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 6,405	Originally Posted by Mycroft Between warning away observers and refusing to set aside guns to intimidate people, this isn't looking very democratic. This is true, but in my opinion is a seperate issue. If they agreed to the clause in the Oslo accord, that's another issue as well. But it appears as if the Oslo accords are toast anyway.
	__________________ Almo! My Blog "No society ever collapsed because the poor had too much." — LeftySergeant "It may be that there is no body really at rest, to which the places and motions of others may be referred." –Issac Newton in the Principia

18th January 2006, 12:14 PM	#9
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Originally Posted by Almo This is true, but in my opinion is a seperate issue. If they agreed to the clause in the Oslo accord, that's another issue as well. But it appears as if the Oslo accords are toast anyway. Not entirely. If Oslo were completely toast, Israel should re-occupy the areas of Palestinian autonomy and go back to square one. Which, arguably, might provide a great opportunity to disarm militants, shut down propaganda mills, kick the Hamas supporting teachers out of the UNRWA run schools, reprint their textbooks with all the hate propaganda removed, etc.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

18th January 2006, 02:41 PM	#10
zenith-nadir Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,500	Quote: Jan 18, 4:11 PM (ET) RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) - Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said Wednesday he'd rather resign than let extremists block his peace agenda, but he expressed hope the Islamic militant group Hamas would moderate its views if it shared power. Gosh I sure hope Hamas moderates its views if it shares power...otherwise I'll have to resign. Quote: Jan 18, 4:11 PM (ET) - (continued) However, a Hamas leader ruled out talks with Israel and threatened to kidnap Israeli soldiers. At a campaign rally in Gaza, Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar ruled out negotiations with Israel. Hamas "is not going to acknowledge the ownership of any inch of Israel on this holy land," he said. "We are not looking to Israel as a partner now or in the future." Even when the leaders of HAMAS announce publicly they will not moderate their views once in office guys like Abbas and all the other useful idiots around the world disagree with them. It's insane.
	__________________ The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled. -- Plutarch

19th January 2006, 02:54 AM	#11
zenith-nadir Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,500	Some more news: Quote: Jan 19th, 2006 GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - The two main contenders in next week's Palestinian parliamentary elections — the ruling Fatah party and Hamas — pledged to avoid violence on voting day and work together afterward, but a Hamas leader ruled out peace talks with Israel. Is it just me or is it crazy that they have to pledge no violence between Palestinians. p.s. Hamas just told everyone again they will not moderate their views once in office. Quote: Jan 19th, 2006 - (continued) In Nablus on Wednesday, a dozen Fatah gunmen took over the local court building, demanding that their representative, Jamil Tirawi, be restored to the 21st place on the Fatah voting list after he was dropped to 29th, witnesses said. Ahhhh...democracy in action....warms my heart. Quote: Jan 19th, 2006 - (continued) In the southern Gaza town of Rafah, a Palestinian was killed when he was shot in the head by Fatah gunmen firing in the air during an election rally, witnesses said Nothing like firing off a few rounds to show your support for democracy....even if it kills people. Palestinian militants from the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades hold up their weapons as they stand in front of a campaign poster depicting the jailed Palestinian leader Marwan Barghouthi during a rally in support of Fatah parliamentary candidates in the West Bank city of Nablus January 18, 2006. REUTERS/Eliana Aponte
	__________________ The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled. -- Plutarch