More TV vicar

dogbite666 · 18th January 2006, 03:38 AM

BBC 2 Tuesday 24th Jan 9pm Alternative Medicine.

Apparently they are going to show a woman in China having open heart surgery without any anesthetic, rather they use accupuncture to stem the pain! I saw the trailer for this and she sure looked like she was in pain to me, I can't wait for this.

Rolfe · 18th January 2006, 04:17 AM

The claim is in any case preposterous. To do open-heart surgery you have to open the chest. If you do that, the patient cannot breathe by the usual negative-pressure means, and will quickly die unless artificially ventilated with positive-pressure. In order to do this, the patient has to have an endotracheal tube in place, and it is impossible to place such a tube unless the patient is anaesthetised, by which I mean unconscious to the point where the cough reflex is suppressed.

This trick is similar to the one showing a lady being sawn in half. The only difference is that nobody seriously expects the audience of the latter show really to believe that a lady has indeed been sawn in half.

Even where lesser claims are made for acupuncture anaesthesia, such as orthopaedic surgery being performed, it's still a case of "please ignore the man behind the curtain", or in this case the I/V drip which is of course only delivering saline, it couldn't possibly have any morphine in it, could it? Many Chinese statistics on acupuncture "anaesthesia" openly admit that other regular painkillers have been used in conjunction.

And finally, European surgeons used to do quite complex stuff before anaesthetics were discovered. The father of the Bronte sisters had surgery for cataracts, apparently quite successfully. J. S. Bach also had eye surgery shortly before he died in 1750. The amount of pain patients can soak up in that situation varies considerably but is often a surprising amount.

But anyway, open-chest surgery without intubation is just flat impossible.

Rolfe.

dogbite666 · 18th January 2006, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

The claim is in any case preposterous. To do open-heart surgery you have to open the chest. If you do that, the patient cannot breathe by the usual negative-pressure means, and will quickly die unless artificially ventilated with positive-pressure. In order to do this, the patient has to have an endotracheal tube in place, and it is impossible to place such a tube unless the patient is anaesthetised, by which I mean unconscious to the point where the cough reflex is suppressed.

Indeed. I just looked up the presenter of this programme, Professor Kathy Sykes, you can view her credentials here:

http://www.bris.ac.uk/ias/collier/

I assume her position as Collier Chair of Public Engagement in Science and Engineering means she will be taking the skeptical view point. However, the trailer for this did seem to show Professor Sykes as accepting this claim. We shall see.

Jon. · 18th January 2006, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by dogbite666

Indeed. I just looked up the presenter of this programme, Professor Kathy Sykes, you can view her credentials here:

http://www.bris.ac.uk/ias/collier/

I assume her position as Collier Chair of Public Engagement in Science and Engineering means she will be taking the skeptical view point. However, the trailer for this did seem to show Professor Sykes as accepting this claim. We shall see.

I've seen Kathy on "Rough Science". She's pretty good there. IIRC, she is a physicist. I'm interested to know how she treats this case. Keep us updated please!

Rolfe · 19th January 2006, 06:46 AM

I've just had a look at the Radio Times blurb for the programme and it does indeed seem to imply that Kathy becomes a convert. However, this could well be deliberately misleading in order to attract viewers. There's something about an MRI machine, and certainly it's hardly surprising if sticking needles in a patient makes bits of the brain light up, but unless someone has found a way of performing open-heart surgery without opening the chest, then the headline claim is simply bogus.

Rolfe.

dogbite666 · 19th January 2006, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I've just had a look at the Radio Times blurb for the programme and it does indeed seem to imply that Kathy becomes a convert. However, this could well be deliberately misleading in order to attract viewers. There's something about an MRI machine, and certainly it's hardly surprising if sticking needles in a patient makes bits of the brain light up, but unless someone has found a way of performing open-heart surgery without opening the chest, then the headline claim is simply bogus.

I agree. I remember when the Horizon programme took the JREF Challenge with a test for water memory as evidence for homeopathy. The trailer had a similar vein - 'The results will amaze you!' and pictures of Randi looking concerned. However, as we all know in the actual programme it failed the test and the pictures of randi looking concerned were just take outs of him coffing.

I wonder what other woo subjects they'll cover in this series, I hope the do one on homeopathy.

walthrup48 · 20th January 2006, 05:39 PM

Mummymonkey's link to BBC article

"Professor Sykes said: "The pain matrix is involved in the perception of pain - it helps someone decide whether something is painful or not, so it could be that acupuncture in some ways changes a person's pain perception."

Uh, isn't this effect known more commonly by a word beginning with 'p'?

TV's Frank · 20th January 2006, 06:49 PM

I want to know who makes up phrases like "the pain matrix".

Blue Bubble · 21st January 2006, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by TV's Frank

I want to know who makes up phrases like "the pain matrix".

The same types that concoct "extraordinary rendition" ?

pjh · 21st January 2006, 08:25 AM

The BBC Two show will also feature heart surgery done using acupuncture instead of a general anaesthetic.

The patient is conscious during the operation in China, but she was given sedatives and a local anaesthetic.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4631930.stm

The_Fire · 21st January 2006, 08:45 AM

Even if it WAS possible, I would prefer being completely under.....I really don't relish the idea of seeing someone messing arround with my innards like that.

pjh · 21st January 2006, 09:30 AM

Modern 'keyhole' type surgeries mean you wouldn't get to see it, it's NOT open heart surgery merely 'heart surgery'.

however ...

Originally Posted by Rolfe

The claim is in any case preposterous. To do open-heart surgery you have to open the chest. If you do that, the patient cannot breathe by the usual negative-pressure means,and will quickly die unless artificially ventilated with positive-pressure.

Although acupuncture anaesthesia is still widely used in China for craniotomy and thyroidectomy, it is not as frequently employed today for open heart operations in China as it was in the 1970s. The main reason is that the patients have to undergo lengthy preoperative training to practice slow and deep abdominal and diaphragmatic breathing required during the operation to overcome the positive atmospheric pressure in the event that the pleural cavity is inadvertently entered; another prerequisite is that the surgeons must be extremely gentle, meticulous, and speedy. Conventional anaesthesia obviates both of these requirements and is thus preferred by younger surgeons. http://heart.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/83/3/256

bridgy · 21st January 2006, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by pjh

The BBC Two show will also feature heart surgery done using acupuncture instead of a general anaesthetic.

The patient is conscious during the operation in China, but she was given sedatives and a local anaesthetic.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4631930.stm

Sooo... if she was given a sedative and local anaesthetic, what was the acupuncture meant to be doing??

Also, the way the experiment with the needles and the brain scan is described, it seems that all they are proving is that deeper needles have a greater affect on the brain (whatever that affect might be) - I wonder if they did the same experiments on random points rather than acupuncture points to see if the same affects were observed?

I suppose I'll have to watch and see

ChristineR · 23rd January 2006, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by The_Fire

Even if it WAS possible, I would prefer being completely under.....I really don't relish the idea of seeing someone messing arround with my innards like that.

Have you ever had this sort of surgery? After the right sedatives, you're lying there saying "ooooooh! neato! They just pulled out my artery! Cool!"

After the stuff wears off, that's a different story.

Beth · 23rd January 2006, 09:15 AM

From Parade Magazine yesterday:

Quote:

What the medical establishment considers to be false may in fact be right for some people. (I first realized this many years ago, when I witnessed open-heart surgery in China performed without any anesthesia except for an acupuncture needle in the patient’s ear—this at a time when doctors generally were convinced that acu-puncture was a sham.)

http://www.parade.com/articles/editi.../Medical_Myths

Now, parade magazine isn't exactly a bastion of critical thinking, but I thought it appropriate for this thread. There's at least one medical doctor claiming to have witnessed such a thing.

Interesting Ian · 23rd January 2006, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by dogbite666

I agree. I remember when the Horizon programme took the JREF Challenge with a test for water memory as evidence for homeopathy. The trailer had a similar vein - 'The results will amaze you!' and pictures of Randi looking concerned. However, as we all know in the actual programme it failed the test and the pictures of randi looking concerned were just take outs of him coffing.

The results were very clearly going against him initially. I have never ever ever seen anyone look so worried as Randi did at that moment. I cannot imagine anyone looking so worried and devastated even at the prospect of being executed the next morning. It certainly put paid to the claims often made by skeptics that he would be delighted to award the $1 million.

ChristineR · 23rd January 2006, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Beth

From Parade Magazine yesterday:

http://www.parade.com/articles/editi.../Medical_Myths

Now, parade magazine isn't exactly a bastion of critical thinking, but I thought it appropriate for this thread. There's at least one medical doctor claiming to have witnessed such a thing.

A lot of these more dramatic demonstrations were faked, or the patient was given other painkillers, or the patient was just highly motivated not to scream. The article doesn't give a date, but Chairman Mao declared that acupuncture (Chinese folk medicine) was superior to modern medicine, just as traditional Chinese art/agriculture/whatever was superior to western versions.

Seems like Parade once published some pictures of a surgery that was shown to be a fake just from careful study of the pictures. Don't know if this is what they are talking about here.

Rolfe · 23rd January 2006, 09:54 AM

Christine's right. This seems to be a common spectacle staged for visitors to China, to show how great their traditional cultural methods are. Now the BBC programme may be going to show something different, but there is a long history of fakery involved in this area.

Rolfe.

Rolfe · 23rd January 2006, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Interesting Ian

The results were very clearly going against him initially. I have never ever ever seen anyone look so worried as Randi did at that moment. I cannot imagine anyone looking so worried and devastated even at the prospect of being executed the next morning. It certainly put paid to the claims often made by skeptics that he would be delighted to award the $1 million.

Ian, Randi is a showman. He knows all there is to know about racking up tension. I don't think you can read anything at all into any facial expression he might choose to adopt.

Rolfe.

Beth · 23rd January 2006, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Christine's right. This seems to be a common spectacle staged for visitors to China, to show how great their traditional cultural methods are. Now the BBC programme may be going to show something different, but there is a long history of fakery involved in this area.

Rolfe.

Well, I certainly can't make any judgment on whether or not it was faked. If it was, it clearly fooled that MD.

ChristineR · 23rd January 2006, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Beth

Well, I certainly can't make any judgment on whether or not it was faked. If it was, it clearly fooled that MD.

Assuming it is the same case, they were doing things that an American MD would have a hard time wrapping his mind around. No American hospital could ever be persuaded to be complicit in a woman lying on a trick table with a cadaver placed on her chest.

http://members.aol.com/garypos/Rosenfeld_sram.html

This link explains how it was done. The original photo is not here, just a sketch. I wouldn't be surprised if this made it into Randi's commentaries; the photo may be online somewhere.

Beth · 23rd January 2006, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by ChristineR

Assuming it is the same case, they were doing things that an American MD would have a hard time wrapping his mind around. No American hospital could ever be persuaded to be complicit in a woman lying on a trick table with a cadaver placed on her chest.

http://members.aol.com/garypos/Rosenfeld_sram.html

This link explains how it was done. The original photo is not here, just a sketch. I wouldn't be surprised if this made it into Randi's commentaries; the photo may be online somewhere.

Same doctor and presumably the same operation being described. Thanks for the link. It was interesting.

ysabella · 23rd January 2006, 12:14 PM

Well, also, we've heard one explanation that the patients are given local anesthetic and sedatives, as well as acupuncture. Possibly this doctor from Parade, years ago, witnessed the surgery but they just didn't show her the part where they gave the anesthetic and sedatives.

Interesting Ian · 23rd January 2006, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Ian, Randi is a showman. He knows all there is to know about racking up tension. I don't think you can read anything at all into any facial expression he might choose to adopt.

Rolfe.

It was absolutely unmistakable. I've never seen anyone look so worried. You obviously didn't see the programme.

ChristineR · 23rd January 2006, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Interesting Ian

It was absolutely unmistakable. I've never seen anyone look so worried. You obviously didn't see the programme.

The most worried person I've ever seen was Macbeth, just after Macduff tells him "Macduff was from his mother’s womb Untimely ripped," hence sidestepping the "unkillable" spell the witches placed on him.

Oh, wait. That was just a really good actor.

Anders W. Bonde · 23rd January 2006, 01:15 PM

The original photo is here: http://members.aol.com/garypos2/Rosenfeld_photo2.html

Doesn't look to me like the 'incision' is in the 'patient's' torso at all...

Rolfe · 23rd January 2006, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Interesting Ian

It was absolutely unmistakable. I've never seen anyone look so worried. You obviously didn't see the programme.

Not only did I see it twice on live TV, I have it on videotape and I've rewatched it several times.

So, I "obviously" didn't see the programme, just the same way as Randi was "obviously" really worried.

Q, E, and, I think, D.

Rolfe.

Interesting Ian · 23rd January 2006, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Not only did I see it twice on live TV, I have it on videotape and I've rewatched it several times.

So, I "obviously" didn't see the programme, just the same way as Randi was "obviously" really worried.

Q, E, and, I think, D.

Rolfe.

How do you expect me to respond here? I have said what I have to say. Any reasonable adult would acknowledge that he was extremely worried indeed. The fact you were unable to recognise this is extremely interesting from the psychological perspective, but there's really no debate to be had here.

This is not to denigrate you whatsoever. I think you're ok, and I like your straightforward no-nonsense manner. I also like your arrogance. But I'm not prepared to get into an infantile debate as to whether black is really white. Sorry.

Thing · 23rd January 2006, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Interesting Ian

Any reasonable adult would acknowledge that he was extremely worried indeed. The fact you were unable to recognise this is extremely interesting from the psychological perspective, but there's really no debate to be had here.

Can I direct you to Randi's commentary of February 20th, 2004?

"Just a quick explanation: I received a lot of mail about a somewhat devious bit of editing that was carried out by the BBC. At one point, I'm shown with my hand up to my mouth as if I'm expressing anxiety about what the presiding statistician is about to announce as the final result of the experiments. That was a moment when I coughed violently — though the audio was edited out — as can be seen under careful observation. I was suffering from very severe laryngitis at that meeting, and my voice was hardly there. It was a bit of a cheap shot, when in actuality I had no trepidation whatsoever about the results that were about to be announced. I trusted those involved, the protocol was tight and proper, and I was confident, as I always am, about what science would show us."

Next please.

Interesting Ian · 23rd January 2006, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Thing

Can I direct you to Randi's commentary of February 20th, 2004?

"Just a quick explanation: I received a lot of mail about a somewhat devious bit of editing that was carried out by the BBC. At one point, I'm shown with my hand up to my mouth as if I'm expressing anxiety about what the presiding statistician is about to announce as the final result of the experiments. That was a moment when I coughed violently — though the audio was edited out — as can be seen under careful observation. I was suffering from very severe laryngitis at that meeting, and my voice was hardly there. It was a bit of a cheap shot, when in actuality I had no trepidation whatsoever about the results that were about to be announced. I trusted those involved, the protocol was tight and proper, and I was confident, as I always am, about what science would show us."

Next please.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I was referring to his demeanor as the early results came in.

Rolfe · 24th January 2006, 02:18 AM

Ian, you said it was "obvious" that I hadn't seen the show. You were wrong. So, is it at least possible that you're wrong about something else? I don't see Randi's expression as indicating much at all - whether deliberate tension-building acting, or just a bit of editing, I don't see it as especially significant.

According to you, that debars me from being regarded as a reasonable adult. Gee, thanks.

This is a question of interpretation, and it's impossible to declare that one interpretation is right and the other wrong. Even if Randi declares that it was just acting, or just editing, this doesn't invalidate Ian's interpretation, because Randi could be fibbing about that. Nevertheless, the acting/editing explanation remains tenable, and is indeed supported by Randi. So, opinion. Reasonable adults can agree to differ on a matter of opinion, no?

Ian, why do you always see such things in black and white, my interpretation to the exclusion of all else? Don't you think that's a bit on the childish side?

Rolfe.

Rolfe · 24th January 2006, 02:27 PM

I've started the post-programme commenting in the other thread - I think the Medicine forum might get more of the interested posters coming past. What say we take the discussion there?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...12#post1401512

Rolfe.

18th January 2006, 03:38 AM	#1
dogbite666 Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 199	More TV vicar BBC 2 Tuesday 24th Jan 9pm Alternative Medicine. Apparently they are going to show a woman in China having open heart surgery without any anesthetic, rather they use accupuncture to stem the pain! I saw the trailer for this and she sure looked like she was in pain to me, I can't wait for this.
dogbite666 Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 199

18th January 2006, 04:17 AM	#2
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,327	The claim is in any case preposterous. To do open-heart surgery you have to open the chest. If you do that, the patient cannot breathe by the usual negative-pressure means, and will quickly die unless artificially ventilated with positive-pressure. In order to do this, the patient has to have an endotracheal tube in place, and it is impossible to place such a tube unless the patient is anaesthetised, by which I mean unconscious to the point where the cough reflex is suppressed. This trick is similar to the one showing a lady being sawn in half. The only difference is that nobody seriously expects the audience of the latter show really to believe that a lady has indeed been sawn in half. Even where lesser claims are made for acupuncture anaesthesia, such as orthopaedic surgery being performed, it's still a case of "please ignore the man behind the curtain", or in this case the I/V drip which is of course only delivering saline, it couldn't possibly have any morphine in it, could it? Many Chinese statistics on acupuncture "anaesthesia" openly admit that other regular painkillers have been used in conjunction. And finally, European surgeons used to do quite complex stuff before anaesthetics were discovered. The father of the Bronte sisters had surgery for cataracts, apparently quite successfully. J. S. Bach also had eye surgery shortly before he died in 1750. The amount of pain patients can soak up in that situation varies considerably but is often a surprising amount. But anyway, open-chest surgery without intubation is just flat impossible. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. Last edited by Rolfe; 18th January 2006 at 04:22 AM.

18th January 2006, 05:29 AM	#3
dogbite666 Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 199	Originally Posted by Rolfe The claim is in any case preposterous. To do open-heart surgery you have to open the chest. If you do that, the patient cannot breathe by the usual negative-pressure means, and will quickly die unless artificially ventilated with positive-pressure. In order to do this, the patient has to have an endotracheal tube in place, and it is impossible to place such a tube unless the patient is anaesthetised, by which I mean unconscious to the point where the cough reflex is suppressed. Indeed. I just looked up the presenter of this programme, Professor Kathy Sykes, you can view her credentials here: http://www.bris.ac.uk/ias/collier/ I assume her position as Collier Chair of Public Engagement in Science and Engineering means she will be taking the skeptical view point. However, the trailer for this did seem to show Professor Sykes as accepting this claim. We shall see.
dogbite666 Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 199

18th January 2006, 09:05 AM	#4
Jon. Increasing entropy since 1970 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: On the Clapham omnibus Posts: 3,509	Originally Posted by dogbite666 Indeed. I just looked up the presenter of this programme, Professor Kathy Sykes, you can view her credentials here: http://www.bris.ac.uk/ias/collier/ I assume her position as Collier Chair of Public Engagement in Science and Engineering means she will be taking the skeptical view point. However, the trailer for this did seem to show Professor Sykes as accepting this claim. We shall see. I've seen Kathy on "Rough Science". She's pretty good there. IIRC, she is a physicist. I'm interested to know how she treats this case. Keep us updated please!
	__________________ In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. I don't appeal to the masses, and they don't appeal to me. - Graham Parker Calling modern day fundamentalists medieval is giving them about a thousand years of philosophical advancement they do not have. - Jorghnassen

19th January 2006, 06:46 AM	#5
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,327	I've just had a look at the Radio Times blurb for the programme and it does indeed seem to imply that Kathy becomes a convert. However, this could well be deliberately misleading in order to attract viewers. There's something about an MRI machine, and certainly it's hardly surprising if sticking needles in a patient makes bits of the brain light up, but unless someone has found a way of performing open-heart surgery without opening the chest, then the headline claim is simply bogus. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

19th January 2006, 07:21 AM	#6
dogbite666 Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 199	Originally Posted by Rolfe I've just had a look at the Radio Times blurb for the programme and it does indeed seem to imply that Kathy becomes a convert. However, this could well be deliberately misleading in order to attract viewers. There's something about an MRI machine, and certainly it's hardly surprising if sticking needles in a patient makes bits of the brain light up, but unless someone has found a way of performing open-heart surgery without opening the chest, then the headline claim is simply bogus. I agree. I remember when the Horizon programme took the JREF Challenge with a test for water memory as evidence for homeopathy. The trailer had a similar vein - 'The results will amaze you!' and pictures of Randi looking concerned. However, as we all know in the actual programme it failed the test and the pictures of randi looking concerned were just take outs of him coffing. I wonder what other woo subjects they'll cover in this series, I hope the do one on homeopathy.
dogbite666 Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 199

20th January 2006, 05:39 PM	#7
walthrup48 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,079	Mummymonkey's link to BBC article "Professor Sykes said: "The pain matrix is involved in the perception of pain - it helps someone decide whether something is painful or not, so it could be that acupuncture in some ways changes a person's pain perception." Uh, isn't this effect known more commonly by a word beginning with 'p'?

20th January 2006, 06:49 PM	#8
TV's Frank Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Champaign, IL Posts: 265	I want to know who makes up phrases like "the pain matrix".

21st January 2006, 12:19 AM	#9
Blue Bubble Sharper than a thorn Join Date: May 2005 Location: Duxford, Cambridgeshire, UK Posts: 2,222	Originally Posted by TV's Frank I want to know who makes up phrases like "the pain matrix". The same types that concoct "extraordinary rendition" ?

21st January 2006, 08:25 AM	#10
pjh Thinker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 218	The BBC Two show will also feature heart surgery done using acupuncture instead of a general anaesthetic. The patient is conscious during the operation in China, but she was given sedatives and a local anaesthetic. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4631930.stm
pjh Thinker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 218

21st January 2006, 08:45 AM	#11
The_Fire Unimpressed Female Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: 8th level of Hell - Maleborgia Posts: 3,037	Even if it WAS possible, I would prefer being completely under.....I really don't relish the idea of seeing someone messing arround with my innards like that.

21st January 2006, 09:30 AM	#12
pjh Thinker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 218	Modern 'keyhole' type surgeries mean you wouldn't get to see it, it's NOT open heart surgery merely 'heart surgery'. however ... Originally Posted by Rolfe The claim is in any case preposterous. To do open-heart surgery you have to open the chest. If you do that, the patient cannot breathe by the usual negative-pressure means,and will quickly die unless artificially ventilated with positive-pressure. Although acupuncture anaesthesia is still widely used in China for craniotomy and thyroidectomy, it is not as frequently employed today for open heart operations in China as it was in the 1970s. The main reason is that the patients have to undergo lengthy preoperative training to practice slow and deep abdominal and diaphragmatic breathing required during the operation to overcome the positive atmospheric pressure in the event that the pleural cavity is inadvertently entered; another prerequisite is that the surgeons must be extremely gentle, meticulous, and speedy. Conventional anaesthesia obviates both of these requirements and is thus preferred by younger surgeons. http://heart.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/83/3/256
pjh Thinker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 218

21st January 2006, 03:11 PM	#13
bridgy Scholar Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 91	Originally Posted by pjh The BBC Two show will also feature heart surgery done using acupuncture instead of a general anaesthetic. The patient is conscious during the operation in China, but she was given sedatives and a local anaesthetic. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4631930.stm Sooo... if she was given a sedative and local anaesthetic, what was the acupuncture meant to be doing?? Also, the way the experiment with the needles and the brain scan is described, it seems that all they are proving is that deeper needles have a greater affect on the brain (whatever that affect might be) - I wonder if they did the same experiments on random points rather than acupuncture points to see if the same affects were observed? I suppose I'll have to watch and see
bridgy Scholar Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 91

23rd January 2006, 06:33 AM	#14
ChristineR Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,189	Originally Posted by The_Fire Even if it WAS possible, I would prefer being completely under.....I really don't relish the idea of seeing someone messing arround with my innards like that. Have you ever had this sort of surgery? After the right sedatives, you're lying there saying "ooooooh! neato! They just pulled out my artery! Cool!" After the stuff wears off, that's a different story.
ChristineR Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,189

23rd January 2006, 09:15 AM	#15
Beth Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Flatland Posts: 5,307	From Parade Magazine yesterday: Quote: What the medical establishment considers to be false may in fact be right for some people. (I first realized this many years ago, when I witnessed open-heart surgery in China performed without any anesthesia except for an acupuncture needle in the patient’s ear—this at a time when doctors generally were convinced that acu-puncture was a sham.) http://www.parade.com/articles/editi.../Medical_Myths Now, parade magazine isn't exactly a bastion of critical thinking, but I thought it appropriate for this thread. There's at least one medical doctor claiming to have witnessed such a thing.
	__________________ Beth "You are not the stuff of which you are made." Richard Dawkins, July 2005, 10:45 http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_daw..._universe.html

23rd January 2006, 09:28 AM	#16
Interesting Ian Banned Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 7,676	Originally Posted by dogbite666 I agree. I remember when the Horizon programme took the JREF Challenge with a test for water memory as evidence for homeopathy. The trailer had a similar vein - 'The results will amaze you!' and pictures of Randi looking concerned. However, as we all know in the actual programme it failed the test and the pictures of randi looking concerned were just take outs of him coffing. The results were very clearly going against him initially. I have never ever ever seen anyone look so worried as Randi did at that moment. I cannot imagine anyone looking so worried and devastated even at the prospect of being executed the next morning. It certainly put paid to the claims often made by skeptics that he would be delighted to award the $1 million.
Interesting Ian Banned Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 7,676

23rd January 2006, 09:32 AM	#17
ChristineR Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,189	Originally Posted by Beth From Parade Magazine yesterday: http://www.parade.com/articles/editi.../Medical_Myths Now, parade magazine isn't exactly a bastion of critical thinking, but I thought it appropriate for this thread. There's at least one medical doctor claiming to have witnessed such a thing. A lot of these more dramatic demonstrations were faked, or the patient was given other painkillers, or the patient was just highly motivated not to scream. The article doesn't give a date, but Chairman Mao declared that acupuncture (Chinese folk medicine) was superior to modern medicine, just as traditional Chinese art/agriculture/whatever was superior to western versions. Seems like Parade once published some pictures of a surgery that was shown to be a fake just from careful study of the pictures. Don't know if this is what they are talking about here.
ChristineR Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,189

23rd January 2006, 09:54 AM	#18
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,327	Christine's right. This seems to be a common spectacle staged for visitors to China, to show how great their traditional cultural methods are. Now the BBC programme may be going to show something different, but there is a long history of fakery involved in this area. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

23rd January 2006, 10:09 AM	#19
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,327	Originally Posted by Interesting Ian The results were very clearly going against him initially. I have never ever ever seen anyone look so worried as Randi did at that moment. I cannot imagine anyone looking so worried and devastated even at the prospect of being executed the next morning. It certainly put paid to the claims often made by skeptics that he would be delighted to award the $1 million. Ian, Randi is a showman. He knows all there is to know about racking up tension. I don't think you can read anything at all into any facial expression he might choose to adopt. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

23rd January 2006, 11:40 AM	#20
Beth Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Flatland Posts: 5,307	Originally Posted by Rolfe Christine's right. This seems to be a common spectacle staged for visitors to China, to show how great their traditional cultural methods are. Now the BBC programme may be going to show something different, but there is a long history of fakery involved in this area. Rolfe. Well, I certainly can't make any judgment on whether or not it was faked. If it was, it clearly fooled that MD.
	__________________ Beth "You are not the stuff of which you are made." Richard Dawkins, July 2005, 10:45 http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_daw..._universe.html

23rd January 2006, 11:55 AM	#21
ChristineR Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,189	Originally Posted by Beth Well, I certainly can't make any judgment on whether or not it was faked. If it was, it clearly fooled that MD. Assuming it is the same case, they were doing things that an American MD would have a hard time wrapping his mind around. No American hospital could ever be persuaded to be complicit in a woman lying on a trick table with a cadaver placed on her chest. http://members.aol.com/garypos/Rosenfeld_sram.html This link explains how it was done. The original photo is not here, just a sketch. I wouldn't be surprised if this made it into Randi's commentaries; the photo may be online somewhere.
ChristineR Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,189

23rd January 2006, 12:06 PM	#22
Beth Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Flatland Posts: 5,307	Originally Posted by ChristineR Assuming it is the same case, they were doing things that an American MD would have a hard time wrapping his mind around. No American hospital could ever be persuaded to be complicit in a woman lying on a trick table with a cadaver placed on her chest. http://members.aol.com/garypos/Rosenfeld_sram.html This link explains how it was done. The original photo is not here, just a sketch. I wouldn't be surprised if this made it into Randi's commentaries; the photo may be online somewhere. Same doctor and presumably the same operation being described. Thanks for the link. It was interesting.
	__________________ Beth "You are not the stuff of which you are made." Richard Dawkins, July 2005, 10:45 http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_daw..._universe.html

23rd January 2006, 12:14 PM	#23
ysabella Muse Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 705	Well, also, we've heard one explanation that the patients are given local anesthetic and sedatives, as well as acupuncture. Possibly this doctor from Parade, years ago, witnessed the surgery but they just didn't show her the part where they gave the anesthetic and sedatives.
	__________________ "The greater the ignorance, the greater the dogmatism." - Sir William Osler

23rd January 2006, 12:36 PM	#24
Interesting Ian Banned Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 7,676	Originally Posted by Rolfe Ian, Randi is a showman. He knows all there is to know about racking up tension. I don't think you can read anything at all into any facial expression he might choose to adopt. Rolfe. It was absolutely unmistakable. I've never seen anyone look so worried. You obviously didn't see the programme.
Interesting Ian Banned Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 7,676

23rd January 2006, 12:53 PM	#25
ChristineR Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,189	Originally Posted by Interesting Ian It was absolutely unmistakable. I've never seen anyone look so worried. You obviously didn't see the programme. The most worried person I've ever seen was Macbeth, just after Macduff tells him "Macduff was from his mother’s womb Untimely ripped," hence sidestepping the "unkillable" spell the witches placed on him. Oh, wait. That was just a really good actor.
ChristineR Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,189

23rd January 2006, 01:15 PM	#26
Anders W. Bonde Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: East Jutland, Denmark Posts: 467	The original photo is here: http://members.aol.com/garypos2/Rosenfeld_photo2.html Doesn't look to me like the 'incision' is in the 'patient's' torso at all...
	__________________ Anders W. Bonde

23rd January 2006, 02:32 PM	#27
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,327	Originally Posted by Interesting Ian It was absolutely unmistakable. I've never seen anyone look so worried. You obviously didn't see the programme. Not only did I see it twice on live TV, I have it on videotape and I've rewatched it several times. So, I "obviously" didn't see the programme, just the same way as Randi was "obviously" really worried. Q, E, and, I think, D. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

23rd January 2006, 03:51 PM	#28
Interesting Ian Banned Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 7,676	Originally Posted by Rolfe Not only did I see it twice on live TV, I have it on videotape and I've rewatched it several times. So, I "obviously" didn't see the programme, just the same way as Randi was "obviously" really worried. Q, E, and, I think, D. Rolfe. How do you expect me to respond here? I have said what I have to say. Any reasonable adult would acknowledge that he was extremely worried indeed. The fact you were unable to recognise this is extremely interesting from the psychological perspective, but there's really no debate to be had here. This is not to denigrate you whatsoever. I think you're ok, and I like your straightforward no-nonsense manner. I also like your arrogance. But I'm not prepared to get into an infantile debate as to whether black is really white. Sorry.
Interesting Ian Banned Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 7,676

23rd January 2006, 03:58 PM	#29
Thing ...now with added haecceity! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Beside myself Posts: 512	Originally Posted by Interesting Ian Any reasonable adult would acknowledge that he was extremely worried indeed. The fact you were unable to recognise this is extremely interesting from the psychological perspective, but there's really no debate to be had here. Can I direct you to Randi's commentary of February 20th, 2004? "Just a quick explanation: I received a lot of mail about a somewhat devious bit of editing that was carried out by the BBC. At one point, I'm shown with my hand up to my mouth as if I'm expressing anxiety about what the presiding statistician is about to announce as the final result of the experiments. That was a moment when I coughed violently — though the audio was edited out — as can be seen under careful observation. I was suffering from very severe laryngitis at that meeting, and my voice was hardly there. It was a bit of a cheap shot, when in actuality I had no trepidation whatsoever about the results that were about to be announced. I trusted those involved, the protocol was tight and proper, and I was confident, as I always am, about what science would show us." Next please.

23rd January 2006, 06:08 PM	#30
Interesting Ian Banned Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 7,676	Originally Posted by Thing Can I direct you to Randi's commentary of February 20th, 2004? "Just a quick explanation: I received a lot of mail about a somewhat devious bit of editing that was carried out by the BBC. At one point, I'm shown with my hand up to my mouth as if I'm expressing anxiety about what the presiding statistician is about to announce as the final result of the experiments. That was a moment when I coughed violently — though the audio was edited out — as can be seen under careful observation. I was suffering from very severe laryngitis at that meeting, and my voice was hardly there. It was a bit of a cheap shot, when in actuality I had no trepidation whatsoever about the results that were about to be announced. I trusted those involved, the protocol was tight and proper, and I was confident, as I always am, about what science would show us." Next please. This has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I was referring to his demeanor as the early results came in.
Interesting Ian Banned Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 7,676

24th January 2006, 02:18 AM	#31
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,327	Ian, you said it was "obvious" that I hadn't seen the show. You were wrong. So, is it at least possible that you're wrong about something else? I don't see Randi's expression as indicating much at all - whether deliberate tension-building acting, or just a bit of editing, I don't see it as especially significant. According to you, that debars me from being regarded as a reasonable adult. Gee, thanks. This is a question of interpretation, and it's impossible to declare that one interpretation is right and the other wrong. Even if Randi declares that it was just acting, or just editing, this doesn't invalidate Ian's interpretation, because Randi could be fibbing about that. Nevertheless, the acting/editing explanation remains tenable, and is indeed supported by Randi. So, opinion. Reasonable adults can agree to differ on a matter of opinion, no? Ian, why do you always see such things in black and white, my interpretation to the exclusion of all else? Don't you think that's a bit on the childish side? Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

24th January 2006, 02:27 PM	#32
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,327	I've started the post-programme commenting in the other thread - I think the Medicine forum might get more of the interested posters coming past. What say we take the discussion there? http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...12#post1401512 Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. Last edited by Rolfe; 24th January 2006 at 02:30 PM.