Scandinavians not welcome in Gaza

[Ryokan]

Quote:

Muhammed-karikaturene setter sinn i kok i Gaza. De militante palestinske gruppene Islamsk hellig krig og al-Aqsa gir skandinaver 48 timer på å komme seg vekk fra Gazastripen.

Quote:

Charicatures of the prophet Muhammed has enraged the population in Gaza. The militant Palestinian groups Islamic Holy War and the al-Aqsa Brigade gives Scandinavians 48 hours to leave Gaza.

Quote:

Advarslene deles ut i form av flygeblad, og kommer som en reaksjon på karikaturtegningene av profeten Muhammed som ble publisert i den danske avisa Jyllands-Posten og senere gjengitt i den norske kristenavisa Magazinet.

Quote:

The warnings are distibuted as fliers, and are a reaction to charicatures of the prophet Muhammed published in the Danish paper Jyllands-Posten, and later also published in the Norwegian Christian newspaper Magazinet.

A Palestinian man showing contempt for Denmark by stepping on the Danish flag.



Members of the al-Aqsa Brigade protest the charicatures by firing into the air.

Source in Norwegian.

[Manny]

Norwegians too? That's awful dumb. The newly elected terrorists there are going to find that their list of friends grows short. Norway seems to be alone among European governments which don't classify Hamas as terrorist and which has announced its willingness to deal with the government as is.

That's not a slam on Norway, by the way. Norway has always held itself out as the country of last resort as a conduit for communications in the middle east, a role which is entirely reasonable, legitimate and honorable for them to hold. I'm just saying that given that role, the new terrorist government would have to be stupid beyond description to cut ties with their only ear on an entire continent.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Members of the al-Aqsa Brigade protest the charicatures by firing into the air.

That could almost be an Onion headline. You know, something along the lines of "Radical muslims kill 10 to protest stereotyping as violent fanatics."

[Manny]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That could almost be an Onion headline. You know, something along the lines of "Radical muslims kill 10 to protest stereotyping as violent fanatics."

Heh. Kind of makes any arguments about "collective punishment" seem pretty silly, too.

[TragicMonkey]

I'm glad all that Israeli oppression they complained of is over and done with. I mean, it has to be, right, or else they wouldn't have the time to devote to such foolish complaints?

[Mephisto]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Members of the al-Aqsa Brigade protest the charicatures by firing into the air.

Ha! That makes about as much sense as invading a country to promote Democracy.

[zenith-nadir]

Quote:

Palestinians burn a Norwegian flag outside the European Union headquarters in the Gaza Strip January 30, 2006. Palestinian gunmen said on Monday Danes and Norwegians visiting Gaza could be attacked unless their governments apologise after newspapers printed satirical images of the Prophet Mohammed. REUTERS/Damir Sagolj

It's refreshing to see someone elses flag burnt for a change.

Quote:

Palestinians burn a Danish flag outside the European Union headquarters in the Gaza Strip January 30, 2006. Palestinian gunmen said on Monday Danes and Norwegians visiting Gaza could be attacked unless their governments apologised after newspapers there printed satirical images of the Prophet Mohammed. REUTERS/Damir Sagolj

Emphasis mine.

Quote:

Palestinian Fatah gunmen stand outside the European Union headquarters in the Gaza Strip, January 30, 2006. (Mohammed Salem/Reuters)

...and where are the Palestinian Authority police to p-r-o-t-e-c-t the EU office from Fatah gunmen? Gosh I wonder.

[Ryokan]

Norwegian flag, about to be burned, with the text 'death to you' in Arabic.

I must say, as a citizen from one of the most peaceful countries in the world, it's a very strange feeling to see our flag burned and fellow citizens being threatened with death just for being Norwegian. (The Norwegian flag was burned on Sri Lanka a few years ago, though, but there were no pictures, at least that I've seen, and no death threats)

A Norwegian Christian paper prints some funny pictures of Muhammed, and I deserve death for it?

ETA : This article from Dagbladet has a video of the flag burning.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

I must say, as a citizen from one of the most peaceful countries in the world, it's a very strange feeling to see our flag burned and fellow citizens being threatened with death just for being Norwegian.

Welcome to Palestine Ryokan.

(edited to add)

Quote:

Masked Gunmen Briefly Take Over EU Office

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) -- Masked gunmen on Monday briefly took over a European Union office to protest a Danish newspaper's publication of cartoons deemed insulting to Islam's Prophet Muhammad, the latest in a wave of violent denunciations of the caricatures across the Islamic world.

The gunmen demanded an apology from Denmark and Norway, and said citizens of the two countries would be prevented from entering the Gaza Strip.

In Monday's violence, the gunmen burst into the EU office, then withdrew several minutes later. A group of about 15 masked men, armed with hand grenades, automatic weapons and anti-tank launchers, remained outside, keeping the offices closed. No shots were fired, and there were no reports of injuries.

The gunmen left the building after about half an hour.

The Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent group linked to Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah Party, claimed responsibility.

(emphasis mine)

p.s. Fatah gunmen also make up the Palestinian Security Services and that is why no Fatah police came to arrest the Fatah terrorists - ( From the article: the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent group linked to Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah Party ) - who stormed the EU office in Gaza.

[Mike B.]

Aha!!!

Since both the Danish and Norweigan flags have crosses on them, we will shortly be seeing a crusade...

Nah!!!

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

A Norwegian Christian paper prints some funny pictures of Muhammed, and I deserve death for it?

The religion of peace. Death is just their way of saying hello.

[Mid]

Well at least they also burned the Danish flag outside the EU consulate, otherwise there's very little point in them turning up there given that Norway isn't a member of the EU

ETA Reread the original post

[Elind]

The quickest way to settle this would be for every western newspaper to publish copies of these cartoons, just as a part of explaining the issue of course, in the name of free press.

Let's see how long they stop buying anything at all from anyone but themselves.

[richardm]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

A Palestinian man showing contempt for Denmark by stepping on the Danish flag.

But if they boycott Denmark, where will they get their bacon from?

[Manny]

Originally Posted by Elind

The quickest way to settle this would be for every western newspaper to publish copies of these cartoons, just as a part of explaining the issue of course, in the name of free press.

One is almost tempted to set up camp across the street from the United Nations and alternately desecrate Tanakhs, new testaments and Korans. Just in the name of science, of course.

[dann]

Originally Posted by richardm

... where will they get their bacon from?

Good one, Richard! (It is a joke, right?!)

/ritzau/AFP - 14:45 - 30. jan. 2006
"Clinton calls drawings 'a disgrace'": http://www.ekstrabladet.dk/VisArtike...?PageID=332736
"On Monday former President Bill Clinton joined the ranks of people criticizing the controversial drawings of the prophet Mohammed.

On Monday Bill Clinton, the former American president, dissociated himself from the drawings of the prophet Mohammaed published by the newspaper Jyllands-Posten. During a conference in Doha, the capital of Quatar, Clinton called the drawings a disgrace.
- So what are we to do. Replace anti-Semite prejudice with anti-Islamic prejudice? Most the battles we have had in Europe over the past 50 years were about fighting prejudice against Jews - fighting anti-Semitism, Clinton said.
He described the ten drawings in the Danish newspaper as 'appalling' and criticized what he referred to as a tendency to generalize negative news about militant Moslems. He warned that this may make people think that all Moslems are militant fanatics." (my translation)

I think I saw the drawings in another Danish newspaper. They seemed fairly harmless to me. I'm opposed to the Danish army being in Afghanistan and Iraq, but a couple of satirical drawings are what it takes to make the Moslem attack Danish milk vans in Saudi Arabia, apparently ...

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by manny

One is almost tempted to set up camp across the street from the United Nations and alternately desecrate Tanakhs, new testaments and Korans. Just in the name of science, of course.

I'd advise against it. I dunno about the New Testament, but there's a ****load of Hasidim in Brooklyn, not to mention fruitcakes like the JDL and JDO, who WILL take some SERIOUS exception to desecrating a Torah (whether book or scroll).

[Manny]

That's what makes it an interesting experiment rather than simply making a point. One possible outcome is that some of the people heaping derision on the Arabs for their behaviour in this matter would be exposed as hypocrites. C'mon, we'll throw a flag or two in there too, just for fun.

[Elind]

Originally Posted by manny

One is almost tempted to set up camp across the street from the United Nations and alternately desecrate Tanakhs, new testaments and Korans. Just in the name of science, of course.

And the science being to determine the length of time to the hospital from the UN..?

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by Elind

And the science being to determine the length of time to the hospital from the UN..?

You're talking about the UN. The worst they'd do is set up a subcommittee to explore the possibility of convening a committee to consider examining launching an investigatory commission to look into the matter in three years. This will require $4.2 million in funding over the first three years, with an additional $6 million after that, and could we stop wasting time investigating who exactly gets that money and which UN agency head they're related to? It's a waste of resources to bother with that sort of thing. Make the check out to "Cash". It's easier for the bookkeeping that way.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Mephisto

Ha! That makes about as much sense as invading a country to promote Democracy.

It worked for Japan, Germany and Italy.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

It worked for Japan, Germany and Italy.

Wow. That's either profound ignorance or shameless history revisionism. Funny me, I thought WW2 was fought because a few fascist nations decided they wanted to spread their ideas and acquire more territory. Now we know it was really about promoting democracy.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Tony

Wow. That's either profound ignorance or shameless history revisionism. Funny me, I thought WW2 was fought because a few fascist nations decided they wanted to spread their ideas and acquire more territory. Now we know it was really about promoting democracy.

All of those countries are democratic nations now as a direct result of their being invaded. That the purpose of the invasions was self-defense is irrelevent, the effect was certainly to promote democracy.

[Ryokan]

There are a million threads about the Iraq war, why not take your bickerings there? In case you didn't notice, this thread is about Scandinavia, charicatures of Muhammed and Muslim extremists in Gaza.

[Mycroft]

Sorry.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

All of those countries are democratic nations now as a direct result of their being invaded. That the purpose of the invasions was self-defense is irrelevent, the effect was certainly to promote democracy.

Their soveriegnty was taken from them, and the Allies had the support of the entire free world in that. Which in no way resembles the debacle in Iraq who remains (nominally) a sovereign nation; and we do NOT have the support of the entire free world there in any case.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by dann

I think I saw the drawings in another Danish newspaper. They seemed fairly harmless to me.

I agree, but the thing is, though, that it shouldn't matter how offensive they are. They are legal where they were printed, and that should be the end of it. These protests are, in effect, an effort by supremacist muslims to impose their vision of what the law should be on a separate, sovereign, non-muslim population. Grant them that, and you basically accept the right of the muslim world to force Sharia law on us all. It's downright shameful that Clinton cannot recognize this blatant call for the west to accept dhimmitude for what it really is. I've criticised Europe for plenty of things, so I think it's only right to congratulate Denmark's leaders on doing the right thing by ignoring demands for appologies, etc, and I truly hope they continue to stand firm. We should all be standing vocally WITH Denmark on this one, and I'm embarrassed that Clinton chose a cowardly approach and disappointed that Bush hasn't come out strongly in support of them, as far as I can tell.

[Ed]

Originally Posted by dann

Good one, Richard! (It is a joke, right?!)

/ritzau/AFP - 14:45 - 30. jan. 2006
"Clinton calls drawings 'a disgrace'": http://www.ekstrabladet.dk/VisArtike...?PageID=332736
"On Monday former President Bill Clinton joined the ranks of people criticizing the controversial drawings of the prophet Mohammed.

On Monday Bill Clinton, the former American president, dissociated himself from the drawings of the prophet Mohammaed published by the newspaper Jyllands-Posten. During a conference in Doha, the capital of Quatar, Clinton called the drawings a disgrace.
- So what are we to do. Replace anti-Semite prejudice with anti-Islamic prejudice? Most the battles we have had in Europe over the past 50 years were about fighting prejudice against Jews - fighting anti-Semitism, Clinton said.
He described the ten drawings in the Danish newspaper as 'appalling' and criticized what he referred to as a tendency to generalize negative news about militant Moslems. He warned that this may make people think that all Moslems are militant fanatics." (my translation)

I think I saw the drawings in another Danish newspaper. They seemed fairly harmless to me. I'm opposed to the Danish army being in Afghanistan and Iraq, but a couple of satirical drawings are what it takes to make the Moslem attack Danish milk vans in Saudi Arabia, apparently ...

So Bill could have discussed the value of freedom of speech and explained how it is one of the cornerstones of democracy and rather than that, he fellated them. Not surprising.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

That the purpose of the invasions was self-defense is irrelevent,

No it isn't. You only want it to be. Someone said:

Quote:

Ha! That makes about as much sense as invading a country to promote Democracy.

To which you replyed:

Quote:

It worked for Japan, Germany and Italy.

You clearly implied, by replying to that specific post, that the purpose, not the final effect, was to promote democracy. Backpedal away.

Quote:

the effect was certainly to promote democracy.

No it wasn't. The effect was an allied victory. The promotion of democracy was purely a side effect of the post-war environment. It's funny when people distort history to advance their agenda and start believing their own propaganda.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

There are a million threads about the Iraq war, why not take your bickerings there? In case you didn't notice, this thread is about Scandinavia, charicatures of Muhammed and Muslim extremists in Gaza.

What is the mood like in your country? Do people generally support the artists who drew these cartoons and the magazines that printed them?

[Ryokan]

Originally Posted by Tony

What is the mood like in your country? Do people generally support the artists who drew these cartoons and the magazines that printed them?

Mixed emotions, really.

The problem is that Magazinet, the paper that published the drawings, is a fundamentalist Christian paper, and their goal was not to use their freedom of expression as the Danish paper did, but to provoke Muslims. Therefore it's a little hard to come to their full defense.

[Elind]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Mixed emotions, really.

The problem is that Magazinet, the paper that published the drawings, is a fundamentalist Christian paper, and their goal was not to use their freedom of expression as the Danish paper did, but to provoke Muslims. Therefore it's a little hard to come to their full defense.

Good point, but then again they probably wouldn't have done so had it not been for the over-reaction of the Muslims in the first place.

As an associated example, I see that 5 churches were bombed in Iraq yesterday. It would be appropriate to publish that report along with the cartoons and ask the readers which was the more offensive act.

Perhaps also ask what would have been the reaction if the US had deliberately bombed 5 mosques, just for the hell of it?

One doesn't deal with hypocrits by being nice.

[Ryokan]

Quote:

- Angrip norske mål

I kveld la en irakisk opprørsgruppe ut en konkret oppfordring til å angripe norske mål på en nettside som tidligere er brukt av opprørsgrupper.

- Å boikotte ost og meieriprodukter alene, er et overfladisk standpunkt, som er passende for en svak nasjon som ikke kan forsvare sin profet. Vi ber alle våre krigere ramme alle tilgjengelige mål som tilhører disse landene, står det i meldingen fra Mujaheedin-hæren, ifølge nyhetsbyrået Reuters.

Quote:

- Attack Norwegian Targets

Tonight an Iraqi rebel group put up an encouragement to attack Norwegian targets on a website formerly used by rebel groups.

- Boycotting cheese and dairy products alone is a superficial standpint that only fits weak nations who can't defend their prophet. We ask all our warriors to target all available targets belonging to these countries, says the message from the Mujaheedin Army, according to Reuters.

Source in Norwegian.

Quote:

Danske styrker angrepet i Irak

En bombe rammet en dansk-iraksk militærpatrulje mandag morgen nær Basra i Irak.

Ingen mennesker ble skadet i angrepet.

Angrepet er det første på danske styrker siden publiseringen av de omstridte Muhammed-tegningene i Jyllandsposten i september.

Quote:

Danish forces attacked in Iraq

A bomb exploded near a Danish-Iraqi patrol monday morning near Basra in Iraq.

No one was hurt in the attack.

The attack is the first one targeting Danish forces since the publication of the disputed Muhammed drawings in Jyllandsposten last september.

Source in Norwegian.

[Elind]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Source in Norwegian.





Source in Norwegian.

How does it feel to be in the same boat as the US? The reasons don't really matter do they?

[Giz]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I agree, but the thing is, though, that it shouldn't matter how offensive they are. They are legal where they were printed, and that should be the end of it. These protests are, in effect, an effort by supremacist muslims to impose their vision of what the law should be on a separate, sovereign, non-muslim population. Grant them that, and you basically accept the right of the muslim world to force Sharia law on us all. It's downright shameful that Clinton cannot recognize this blatant call for the west to accept dhimmitude for what it really is. I've criticised Europe for plenty of things, so I think it's only right to congratulate Denmark's leaders on doing the right thing by ignoring demands for appologies, etc, and I truly hope they continue to stand firm. We should all be standing vocally WITH Denmark on this one, and I'm embarrassed that Clinton chose a cowardly approach and disappointed that Bush hasn't come out strongly in support of them, as far as I can tell.

Agreed.

[Ryokan]

Originally Posted by Elind

How does it feel to be in the same boat as the US? The reasons don't really matter do they?

It's a bit, hmm, surreal.

[Giz]

Originally Posted by Mark

Their soveriegnty was taken from them, and the Allies had the support of the entire free world in that. Which in no way resembles the debacle in Iraq who remains (nominally) a sovereign nation; and we do NOT have the support of the entire free world there in any case.

Nitpick; a whole bunch of nations eventually joined the allied side in WW2. The VAST majority of them in the latter stage of the war when allied victory was certain and they wished to appear to be on the winning side (heck, even German sympathizing Argentina cut it's losses and declared war on Germany in [from memory] March 1945 - Thanks Argentina!).

In WW2, the "entire free world" that counted was pretty much just the USA and the British Commonwealth. Whose in Iraq at the mo? - the USA, UK, AUS...

[Elind]

Originally Posted by Giz

Agreed.

me too.

[Elind]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

It's a bit, hmm, surreal.

Welcome home, to the real world.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Giz

Nitpick; a whole bunch of nations eventually joined the allied side in WW2. The VAST majority of them in the latter stage of the war when allied victory was certain and they wished to appear to be on the winning side (heck, even German sympathizing Argentina cut it's losses and declared war on Germany in [from memory] March 1945 - Thanks Argentina!).

In WW2, the "entire free world" that counted was pretty much just the USA and the British Commonwealth. Whose in Iraq at the mo? - the USA, UK, AUS...

Actively participating and "support" are not necessarily the same thing, are they? (And you left out France.) And, although not part of the free world, Russia's alliance with us should not be ignored either.

To suggest the current situation in Iraq in any way mirrors that of WWII stretches the bounds of credibility, whatever side of the issue one is on, I should think.