Could you prove that you're civilized?

jay gw · 3rd February 2006, 02:53 PM

Civilized

This term is often used as a value judgement to indicate that the person or society in question has attained a higher level of culture, a more complex system of government, and a superior set of beliefs, morals, and behaviors.
Having a high state of culture and development both social and technological
Observant of the forms required by good breeding

Uncivilized

lacking culture or refinement

Many contacts between cultures have resulted in the judgement that the other culture is less "civilized" and more "barbaric" or primitive or savage.

However.....can you prove you're civilized? Is it possible to?

geetarmoore · 3rd February 2006, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by E-Human

Civilized

This term is often used as a value judgement to indicate that the person or society in question has attained a higher level of culture, a more complex system of government, and a superior set of beliefs, morals, and behaviors.
Having a high state of culture and development both social and technological
Observant of the forms required by good breeding

Uncivilized

lacking culture or refinement

Many contacts between cultures have resulted in the judgement that the other culture is less "civilized" and more "barbaric" or primitive or savage.

However.....can you prove you're civilized? Is it possible to?

I would have to assume that it's all just a relativity issue, based on how you see your own society....

But, I don't know......

Piscivore · 3rd February 2006, 02:57 PM

Compared to what standard?

jay gw · 3rd February 2006, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Compared to what standard?

What standard did colonists use in the New World, or Mohammed when he told polytheists to convert or else?

Maybe that one.

epepke · 3rd February 2006, 03:01 PM

I can prove that I'm civilized by showing my driver's license. It gives my address in a city. "Civilized" means having the skills that allow one to survive functionally in a city.

Piscivore · 3rd February 2006, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by E-Human

What standard did colonists use in the New World? Maybe that one.

I don't know. Some people assert that it was skin colour, some that it was the wearing of trousers. Others probably thought that it was belief in god.

Which one do you want?

jay gw · 3rd February 2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Some people assert that it was skin colour, some that it was the wearing of trousers. Others probably thought that it was belief in god.

How many standards are there?

Marquis de Carabas · 3rd February 2006, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by E-Human

How many standards are there?

A few billion, I'd imagine.

Dogdoctor · 3rd February 2006, 03:17 PM

I could prove I am uncivilized or lacking culture or refinement
or maybe not since I actually reject culture and refinement which shows I have a superior set of beliefs.

Jorghnassen · 4th February 2006, 08:14 AM

Every time I shave, I become civilized again.

Bikewer · 4th February 2006, 09:44 AM

I own an espresso maker....

Vagabond · 4th February 2006, 10:14 AM

It's a subjective term. It's kind of like describing what "culture" is made of.
Everybody thinks they are more cultured and civilized than others around them. Even those of the same nation or race. It's why New Yorkers and people in LA look down on people elsewhere and call it "fly over" or cow towns.

Iacchus · 5th February 2006, 06:05 AM

Why can't we all just get along?

kmortis · 5th February 2006, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

I own an espresso maker....

Ahh, but do you know how to use it? I could, if I wanted to, give an espresso marker to a bunch of bonobos, but that wouldn't make them civilized, would it?

Marquis,
Considering that there are nigh 9 billion people on this planet, I'd wager that, at a minimum, there are 9 billion defintions of "civilized".

To the OP, **mindlessly scratches butt** I have complete, irrefutable **UUUUUUUUUUUUURP!!!!!** evidence that I, KMortis, am the veritable **picks nose, looks at the mined gold on the end of his end effector, then eats it** paragon of "civilized".

David Swidler · 5th February 2006, 06:38 AM

You are civilized. An unrefined person would have wiped that booger on a piece of furniture, or the wall.

Bikewer · 5th February 2006, 07:54 AM

Bonobos handle ordinary coffee-brewing fairly well, but the nuances of proper foam are lost on them.

kmortis · 5th February 2006, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

Bonobos handle ordinary coffee-brewing fairly well, but the nuances of proper foam are lost on them.

No kidding. The last bunch got so frustrated at the foam nozzle that they just flung poo in my cup

It was probably the best cappicino I've ever had. A bit nutty, but otherwise tastey.

Vagabond · 5th February 2006, 12:26 PM

There is a famous Einstein quote that equated being civilized with knowing mathematics. Which is equally as stupid as equating it to coffee making.

Serenity · 5th February 2006, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Vagabond

There is a famous Einstein quote that equated being civilized with knowing mathematics. Which is equally as stupid as equating it to coffee making.

I don't own an espresso machine, but does using unbleached paper coffee filters count, or do I have to spring for the reusable gold filters?

Melendwyr · 5th February 2006, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Vagabond

There is a famous Einstein quote that equated being civilized with knowing mathematics. Which is equally as stupid as equating it to coffee making.

No. Coffee is arbitrary - mathematics is universal.

The fact that you confuse the universal with the arbitrary is proof you're not civilized.

CplFerro · 5th February 2006, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by jay gw

However.....can you prove you're civilized? Is it possible to?

Anyone who can read Plato's Meno dialogue, and then go on to successfully extra-textually recreate that dialogue with another person, to the point of eliciting that other person's recreation of the slave's discovery, has proven himself a member of civilisation. He may not be a good member, but he is a member. No fanatic worshipping a magic book, or other animal or robot, could do that. They wouldn't have the patience or the spirit to even try.

Vagabond · 5th February 2006, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Melendwyr

No. Coffee is arbitrary - mathematics is universal.

The fact that you confuse the universal with the arbitrary is proof you're not civilized.

The fact you would confuse the fact I would compare mathematics and coffee making and think I was actually serious shows you aren't.

Marquis de Carabas · 6th February 2006, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by kmortis

Marquis,
Considering that there are nigh 9 billion people on this planet, I'd wager that, at a minimum, there are 9 billion defintions of "civilized".

Closer to 6 1/2 billion, and not all of them will have definitions, being too young to even grasp the concept, or too old to care... but, essentially, yes, that was my point.

NoZed Avenger · 6th February 2006, 07:55 AM

But I don't claim to be civilized.

I am not civilized. I am American.

Serenity · 6th February 2006, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by jay gw

Civilized

This term is often used as a value judgement to indicate that the person or society in question has attained a higher level of culture, a more complex system of government, and a superior set of beliefs, morals, and behaviors.
Having a high state of culture and development both social and technological
Observant of the forms required by good breeding

Uncivilized

lacking culture or refinement

Many contacts between cultures have resulted in the judgement that the other culture is less "civilized" and more "barbaric" or primitive or savage.

However.....can you prove you're civilized? Is it possible to?

I don't know how you could prove it; demonstrate and make a strong suggestion to the claim? Yes.

"To be civilized is to be at the forefront of humanities enlightened pursuits where the darkness left behind is exchanged for the knowledge of being; and progressive and ethical conduct is reflected and deliberated." - Serenity

kmortis · 6th February 2006, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Vagabond

There is a famous Einstein quote that equated being civilized with knowing mathematics. Which is equally as stupid as equating it to coffee making.

I'm sure that, if he were still alive, Heinlein would be thrilled that you confuzed him with Einstein....

Quote:

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe and not make messes in the house.

--Lazarus Long, "Time Enough for Love", (Robert A. Heinlein)

kmortis · 6th February 2006, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas

Closer to 6 1/2 billion, and not all of them will have definitions, being too young to even grasp the concept, or too old to care... but, essentially, yes, that was my point.

True, and then there are those from Texas...

LordoftheLeftHand · 6th February 2006, 12:12 PM

I define civilized as:

A person who wears proper (European) trousers.

BTW: You can’t discover something unless you are wearing them.

LLH

kmortis · 6th February 2006, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by LordoftheLeftHand

I define civilized as:

A person who wears proper (European) trousers.

BTW: You can’t discover something unless you are wearing them.

LLH

Does this include kilts?

LordoftheLeftHand · 6th February 2006, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by kmortis

Does this include kilts?

Hmmmmmmm.... uhhhhh yeah (why not)!

LLH

Beerina · 6th February 2006, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by LordoftheLeftHand

I define civilized as:

A person who wears proper (European) trousers.

I feel sorry for European women, and the men who might be interested in them.

3rd February 2006, 02:53 PM	#1
jay gw Suspended Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,824	Could you prove that you're civilized? Civilized This term is often used as a value judgement to indicate that the person or society in question has attained a higher level of culture, a more complex system of government, and a superior set of beliefs, morals, and behaviors. Having a high state of culture and development both social and technological Observant of the forms required by good breeding Uncivilized lacking culture or refinement Many contacts between cultures have resulted in the judgement that the other culture is less "civilized" and more "barbaric" or primitive or savage. However.....can you prove you're civilized? Is it possible to?
jay gw Suspended Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,824

3rd February 2006, 02:57 PM	#2
geetarmoore Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Small planet in the milky way. Posts: 280	Originally Posted by E-Human Civilized This term is often used as a value judgement to indicate that the person or society in question has attained a higher level of culture, a more complex system of government, and a superior set of beliefs, morals, and behaviors. Having a high state of culture and development both social and technological Observant of the forms required by good breeding Uncivilized lacking culture or refinement Many contacts between cultures have resulted in the judgement that the other culture is less "civilized" and more "barbaric" or primitive or savage. However.....can you prove you're civilized? Is it possible to? I would have to assume that it's all just a relativity issue, based on how you see your own society.... But, I don't know......
	__________________ Originally Posted by geetarmoore Quoting yourself in your own sig is just plain wrong! "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." - Gene Roddenberry

3rd February 2006, 02:57 PM	#3
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,457	Compared to what standard?
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

3rd February 2006, 03:00 PM	#4
jay gw Suspended Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,824	Quote: Compared to what standard? What standard did colonists use in the New World, or Mohammed when he told polytheists to convert or else? Maybe that one.
jay gw Suspended Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,824

3rd February 2006, 03:01 PM	#5
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	I can prove that I'm civilized by showing my driver's license. It gives my address in a city. "Civilized" means having the skills that allow one to survive functionally in a city.
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	__________________ "It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away." - Godzilla versus Hedora "There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military." -DavidByron

3rd February 2006, 03:02 PM	#6
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,457	Originally Posted by E-Human What standard did colonists use in the New World? Maybe that one. I don't know. Some people assert that it was skin colour, some that it was the wearing of trousers. Others probably thought that it was belief in god. Which one do you want?
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

3rd February 2006, 03:03 PM	#7
jay gw Suspended Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,824	Quote: Some people assert that it was skin colour, some that it was the wearing of trousers. Others probably thought that it was belief in god. How many standards are there?
jay gw Suspended Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,824

3rd February 2006, 03:05 PM	#8
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Originally Posted by E-Human How many standards are there? A few billion, I'd imagine.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

3rd February 2006, 03:17 PM	#9
Dogdoctor Canis Doctorius Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pacific Ocean Posts: 14,278	I could prove I am uncivilized or lacking culture or refinement or maybe not since I actually reject culture and refinement which shows I have a superior set of beliefs.
	__________________

4th February 2006, 08:14 AM	#10
Jorghnassen Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The realm of ideas Posts: 3,881	Every time I shave, I become civilized again.
	__________________ "Help control the local pet population: teach your dog abstinence." -Stephen Colbert "My dad believed laughter is the best medicine. Which is why several of us died of tuberculosis."- Unknown source, heard from Grey Delisle on Rob Paulsen's podcast

4th February 2006, 09:44 AM	#11
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,525	I own an espresso maker....

4th February 2006, 10:14 AM	#12
Vagabond Professor of Human Nature Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: St. Louis Posts: 818	It's a subjective term. It's kind of like describing what "culture" is made of. Everybody thinks they are more cultured and civilized than others around them. Even those of the same nation or race. It's why New Yorkers and people in LA look down on people elsewhere and call it "fly over" or cow towns.
	__________________ "Happy is he that has the pure truth in him. He will regret no sacrifice that keeps it." "Viewed from the summit of reason, all life looks like a malignant disease and the world like a madhouse." Goethe

5th February 2006, 06:05 AM	#13
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Why can't we all just get along?

5th February 2006, 06:20 AM	#14
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas Posts: 24,593	Originally Posted by Bikewer I own an espresso maker.... Ahh, but do you know how to use it? I could, if I wanted to, give an espresso marker to a bunch of bonobos, but that wouldn't make them civilized, would it? Marquis, Considering that there are nigh 9 billion people on this planet, I'd wager that, at a minimum, there are 9 billion defintions of "civilized". To the OP, mindlessly scratches butt I have complete, irrefutable UUUUUUUUUUUUURP!!!!! evidence that I, KMortis, am the veritable picks nose, looks at the mined gold on the end of his end effector, then eats it paragon of "civilized".
	__________________ -Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Monroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

5th February 2006, 06:38 AM	#15
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	You are civilized. An unrefined person would have wiped that booger on a piece of furniture, or the wall.

5th February 2006, 07:54 AM	#16
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,525	Bonobos handle ordinary coffee-brewing fairly well, but the nuances of proper foam are lost on them.

5th February 2006, 08:17 AM	#17
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas Posts: 24,593	Originally Posted by Bikewer Bonobos handle ordinary coffee-brewing fairly well, but the nuances of proper foam are lost on them. No kidding. The last bunch got so frustrated at the foam nozzle that they just flung poo in my cup It was probably the best cappicino I've ever had. A bit nutty, but otherwise tastey.
	__________________ -Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Monroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

5th February 2006, 12:26 PM	#18
Vagabond Professor of Human Nature Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: St. Louis Posts: 818	There is a famous Einstein quote that equated being civilized with knowing mathematics. Which is equally as stupid as equating it to coffee making.
	__________________ "Happy is he that has the pure truth in him. He will regret no sacrifice that keeps it." "Viewed from the summit of reason, all life looks like a malignant disease and the world like a madhouse." Goethe

5th February 2006, 02:16 PM	#19
Serenity Serenity Now! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: CT Central Lowlands Posts: 862	Originally Posted by Vagabond There is a famous Einstein quote that equated being civilized with knowing mathematics. Which is equally as stupid as equating it to coffee making. I don't own an espresso machine, but does using unbleached paper coffee filters count, or do I have to spring for the reusable gold filters?

5th February 2006, 02:18 PM	#20
Melendwyr Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,064	Originally Posted by Vagabond There is a famous Einstein quote that equated being civilized with knowing mathematics. Which is equally as stupid as equating it to coffee making. No. Coffee is arbitrary - mathematics is universal. The fact that you confuse the universal with the arbitrary is proof you're not civilized.
Melendwyr Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,064	__________________ Arguing with the irrational is like giving medicine to a dead man or preaching to the damned. "Dance with us, GIR! Dance with us into oblivion!" "Oddly, stating that one has no creed assures that one has no creed." -- Upchurch "I am the only one here using reason." -- Interesting Ian "You cannot respond to the arguments of TIMECUBE!" -- TimeCube guy

5th February 2006, 03:29 PM	#21
CplFerro Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,383	Originally Posted by jay gw However.....can you prove you're civilized? Is it possible to? Anyone who can read Plato's Meno dialogue, and then go on to successfully extra-textually recreate that dialogue with another person, to the point of eliciting that other person's recreation of the slave's discovery, has proven himself a member of civilisation. He may not be a good member, but he is a member. No fanatic worshipping a magic book, or other animal or robot, could do that. They wouldn't have the patience or the spirit to even try.

5th February 2006, 07:12 PM	#22
Vagabond Professor of Human Nature Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: St. Louis Posts: 818	Originally Posted by Melendwyr No. Coffee is arbitrary - mathematics is universal. The fact that you confuse the universal with the arbitrary is proof you're not civilized. The fact you would confuse the fact I would compare mathematics and coffee making and think I was actually serious shows you aren't.
	__________________ "Happy is he that has the pure truth in him. He will regret no sacrifice that keeps it." "Viewed from the summit of reason, all life looks like a malignant disease and the world like a madhouse." Goethe

6th February 2006, 06:40 AM	#23
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Originally Posted by kmortis Marquis, Considering that there are nigh 9 billion people on this planet, I'd wager that, at a minimum, there are 9 billion defintions of "civilized". Closer to 6 1/2 billion, and not all of them will have definitions, being too young to even grasp the concept, or too old to care... but, essentially, yes, that was my point.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

6th February 2006, 07:55 AM	#24
NoZed Avenger Bitter Whiner Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 11,313	But I don't claim to be civilized. I am not civilized. I am American.

6th February 2006, 10:20 AM	#25
Serenity Serenity Now! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: CT Central Lowlands Posts: 862	Originally Posted by jay gw Civilized This term is often used as a value judgement to indicate that the person or society in question has attained a higher level of culture, a more complex system of government, and a superior set of beliefs, morals, and behaviors. Having a high state of culture and development both social and technological Observant of the forms required by good breeding Uncivilized lacking culture or refinement Many contacts between cultures have resulted in the judgement that the other culture is less "civilized" and more "barbaric" or primitive or savage. However.....can you prove you're civilized? Is it possible to? I don't know how you could prove it; demonstrate and make a strong suggestion to the claim? Yes. "To be civilized is to be at the forefront of humanities enlightened pursuits where the darkness left behind is exchanged for the knowledge of being; and progressive and ethical conduct is reflected and deliberated." - Serenity

6th February 2006, 10:54 AM	#26
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas Posts: 24,593	Originally Posted by Vagabond There is a famous Einstein quote that equated being civilized with knowing mathematics. Which is equally as stupid as equating it to coffee making. I'm sure that, if he were still alive, Heinlein would be thrilled that you confuzed him with Einstein.... Quote: Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe and not make messes in the house. --Lazarus Long, "Time Enough for Love", (Robert A. Heinlein)
	__________________ -Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Monroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

6th February 2006, 10:55 AM	#27
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas Posts: 24,593	Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas Closer to 6 1/2 billion, and not all of them will have definitions, being too young to even grasp the concept, or too old to care... but, essentially, yes, that was my point. True, and then there are those from Texas...
	__________________ -Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Monroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

6th February 2006, 12:12 PM	#28
LordoftheLeftHand Dominus Sinistrae Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,186	I define civilized as: A person who wears proper (European) trousers. BTW: You can’t discover something unless you are wearing them. LLH

6th February 2006, 12:49 PM	#29
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas Posts: 24,593	Originally Posted by LordoftheLeftHand I define civilized as: A person who wears proper (European) trousers. BTW: You can’t discover something unless you are wearing them. LLH Does this include kilts?
	__________________ -Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Monroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

6th February 2006, 12:54 PM	#30
LordoftheLeftHand Dominus Sinistrae Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,186	Originally Posted by kmortis Does this include kilts? Hmmmmmmm.... uhhhhh yeah (why not)! LLH
	__________________ What though the field be lost? All is not lost—the unconquerable will, And study of revenge, immortal hate, And courage never to submit or yield - Milton, Paradise Lost

6th February 2006, 01:22 PM	#31
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by LordoftheLeftHand I define civilized as: A person who wears proper (European) trousers. I feel sorry for European women, and the men who might be interested in them.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?