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CFLarsen · 15th February 2006, 01:09 AM

Jordan

Bahrain

Oman

United Arab Emirates

Egypt

Qatar

Saudi Arabia

Newspapers

Pot. Kettle. Black.

neutrino_cannon · 15th February 2006, 01:15 AM

You forgot Iran.

CFLarsen · 15th February 2006, 01:25 AM

Where is a list of cartoons from Iran?

neutrino_cannon · 15th February 2006, 01:43 AM

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/AntiSemi/7800.htm

CFLarsen · 15th February 2006, 01:54 AM

Link doesn't work?

neutrino_cannon · 15th February 2006, 02:01 AM

Oh dear, I'm not a great link repairer, so I'll summarize.

I picked it up off of google for "Iranian comics anti semitism" or some such. The gist of it was that an Iranian paper was holding a contest for the most offensive possible anti-Israeli... er... anti-zionist comics to test the limits of free speech. Now, how restating government doctrine tests the limits of free speech I'm not sure, but all sorts of delightful things like Anne Frank in bed with Hitler have been drawn up. You know, the kind of stuff that cutting edge political satire, and not inflamatory, reactionist garbage is made of.

NeilC · 15th February 2006, 03:40 AM

You don't mean to say that these countries are total hypocritical bigots do you?

Maledict · 15th February 2006, 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by Splossy

You don't mean to say that these countries are total hypocritical bigots do you?

I agree with you there - first they cry foul of the Jyllands-Posten cartoons which slightly satirizes and pokes fun at Islam, and complain about the double standards in western press concerning Christianity, Jews and Holocaust denial (Which, I begrudingly have to say, is the only point that I agree with). Then they go on to do the very same thing to the Jews and the West, whilst holding a mirror image double standard concerning the depiction of Mohammed. The only difference is that the west won't start burning down embassies, rioting, and calling for the death of the authors of the Iranian cartoon contest.

As Claus said, Pot. Kettle. Black.

I just wish the Middle East would just grow the f*ck up and get with the modern information age, but alas, they're still stuck in the Medival period. Mostly due to the sh*tty governments they live under, though, who just collect all the oil wealth for themselves and the ruling elite, without ever having the wealth trickle down to the average citizen.

Edit: Woops, put a swear word in there, just corrected it now. I've been spending too much time on SomethingAwful.com

NeilC · 15th February 2006, 04:02 AM

I think that, to those governments and the extremists, concepts like "free speech" and "human rights" are merely weapons to be used against their enemies.

The Central Scrutinizer · 15th February 2006, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

Jordan

Bahrain

Oman

United Arab Emirates

Egypt

Qatar

Saudi Arabia

Newspapers

Pot. Kettle. Black.

This surprises you?

CFLarsen · 15th February 2006, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

This surprises you?

Not really. But evidence is always nice...

vbloke · 15th February 2006, 09:01 AM

hey, we need to riot too, guys...
http://www.cagle.com/news/Muhammad/images/ofarrell5.gif

webfusion · 1st November 2006, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by neutrino_cannon

... The gist of it was that an Iranian paper was holding a contest for the most offensive possible anti-Israeli... er... anti-zionist comics to test the limits of free speech. Now, how restating government doctrine tests the limits of free speech I'm not sure, but all sorts of delightful things like Anne Frank in bed with Hitler have been drawn up. You know, the kind of stuff that cutting edge political satire, and not inflamatory, reactionist garbage is made of.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/782695.html
The 'contest' was sponsored by Tehran daily Hamshahri and a winner has been just announced ---
Abdollah Derkaoui received $12,000 for his work depicting an Israeli construction crane piling large cement blocks on Israel's security wall and gradually obscuring Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. A picture of Nazi Germany's Auschwitz concentration camp appears on the wall.

The exhibit curator, Masoud Shojai, said the contest would be an annual event. "Actually, we will continue until the destruction of Israel," he said.

Darth Rotor · 1st November 2006, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

The exhibit curator, Masoud Shojai, said the contest would be an annual event. "Actually, we will continue until the destruction of Israel," he said.

Is this a similar meme to "Next year, Jerusalem?"

DR

webfusion · 1st November 2006, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Is this a similar meme to "Next year, Jerusalem?"

No.

The fervent wish of jews worldwide to be "next year in Jerusalem" (the closing blessing of the traditional passover evening meal) relates to the desire of ushering the moshiach ---- peace & tikkun olam.

A far different meme than wishing for 'the destruction of Israel'

steverino · 1st November 2006, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by RabbiSatan

I agree with you there - first they cry foul of the Jyllands-Posten cartoons which slightly satirizes and pokes fun at Islam, and complain about the double standards in western press concerning Christianity, Jews and Holocaust denial (Which, I begrudingly have to say, is the only point that I agree with).

Just to clarify-You agree with those who deny the Holocaust?

Mycroft · 1st November 2006, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by steverino

Just to clarify-You agree with those who deny the Holocaust?

I think his "agreement" was on double standards. That is standards that allow mockery of Mohammed on the grounds of freedom of speech, but make holocaust denial a crime. A non-double standard would either make both illegal because they are offensive, or allow both as freedom of speech.

Skeptic · 1st November 2006, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/782695.html
The 'contest' was sponsored by Tehran daily Hamshahri and a winner has been just announced ---
Abdollah Derkaoui received $12,000 for his work depicting an Israeli construction crane piling large cement blocks on Israel's security wall and gradually obscuring Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. A picture of Nazi Germany's Auschwitz concentration camp appears on the wall.

The exhibit curator, Masoud Shojai, said the contest would be an annual event. "Actually, we will continue until the destruction of Israel," he said.

That's what I like about Iranian antisemitism: it's so subtle and understated.

Skeptic · 1st November 2006, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Splossy

You don't mean to say that these countries are total hypocritical bigots do you?

Bigots, yes; hypocritical, no.

It's not that they claim to support free speech for all, and then hypocritically deny it to those who criticize Islam.

They really think that it's OK for Muslims to mock and demonize infidels, but it's wrong for infidels to do the same to Muslims, because Muslims are superior creatures that have more rights than infidels.

Kerberos · 2nd November 2006, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

I think his "agreement" was on double standards. That is standards that allow mockery of Mohammed on the grounds of freedom of speech, but make holocaust denial a crime. A non-double standard would either make both illegal because they are offensive, or allow both as freedom of speech.

Of course Holocaust denial is only a crime in some European countries, like for example Germany. In others, like say Denmark you can deny the holocaust till you turn blue and face no legal sanction. So since the cartoons where published in Denmark and not Germany, there’s really no hypocrisy there.

Kerberos · 2nd November 2006, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Bigots, yes; hypocritical, no.

It's not that they claim to support free speech for all, and then hypocritically deny it to those who criticize Islam.

They really think that it's OK for Muslims to mock and demonize infidels, but it's wrong for infidels to do the same to Muslims, because Muslims are superior creatures that have more rights than infidels.

Hypocritical too. I recall an Egyptian newspaper editorial explaining that they had freedom of speech too (really?), but used it in accordance with the human rights (yeah, right!). Further-more it explained that they knew the difference between freedom of speech and ridicule (sure), and that if we used Freedom of speech to offend their symbols we’d have to accept that they used it to offend ours (*gasp*).

The article contained a caricature of the Danish queen in an exotic danser costume costume (the horror! The horror!). It also had an insurance that the au-thors respect for religious symbols (*cough*), meant that he’d never use freedom of speech as an excuse to ridicule them.

Beerina · 2nd November 2006, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by Kerberos

Hypocritical too. I recall an Egyptian newspaper editorial explaining that they had freedom of speech too (really?), but used it in accordance with the human rights (yeah, right!).

George Orwell would be proud.

Quote:

Further-more it explained that they knew the difference between freedom of speech and ridicule (sure), and that if we used Freedom of speech to offend their symbols we’d have to accept that they used it to offend ours (*gasp*).

That is correct, Egyptian sir.

Quote:

The article contained a caricature of the Danish queen in an exotic danser costume costume (the horror! The horror!). It also had an insurance that the au-thors respect for religious symbols (*cough*), meant that he’d never use freedom of speech as an excuse to ridicule them.

That is called responsibility. However, free people reserve the right to mercilessly mock things. That is what freedom of speech is about -- using speech to affect other people and how they think about things.

CFLarsen · 2nd November 2006, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

That is called responsibility. However, free people reserve the right to mercilessly mock things. That is what freedom of speech is about -- using speech to affect other people and how they think about things.

What I find most revealing is that the Iranian cartoons, and from other countries, that are supposed to be sooooooo offensive to us....aren't. They just aren't.

It's crude humor. It's the same, tired cliches: Israel and Bush humping each other, while swastikas are dropped generously all over the place? The Danish PM in bed with a Kurdish politician? Yawn.

Sheesh....get some new material, OK? It's not funny! Vicious, perhaps. But not funny.

Danes are not offended by seeing a cartoon of the Danish Queen as an exotic dancer. You have no idea how the Danish Queen and the Danish PM are depicted in Danish publications, e.g. the annual satiricals "Svikmøllen" and "Blæksprutten" ("Vicious Circle" and "The Octopus"). Any cartoon there is far "worse" than anything I have ever seen in Arab media.

Not because it is cruder - Danish humour is rarely crude. The best form of humour is not crude, but instead precise. The best humour hits a nerve, without resorting to cliches. Being mean is not funny, but hitting a nerve, making people stop and think - that can be devastating to those in power.

Mycroft · 2nd November 2006, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

That's what I like about Iranian antisemitism: it's so subtle and understated.

Hush, you. That's not anti-Semitism, that's anti-Zionism!*

*Pre 1948 it's anti-Semitism. Post 1948 it's anti-Zionism.

Almo · 2nd November 2006, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by RabbiSatan

I agree with you there - first they cry foul of the Jyllands-Posten cartoons which slightly satirizes and pokes fun at Islam,

The Muhammed cartoons do not slightly "satirize and poke fun" at Islam. It is a fundamental tenet of Islam that graven images of the Prophet are inherently wrong. To marginalize the mangnitude of insult from the Muhammed cartoons is to marginalize what an important lesson in free speech their publication was.

The cartoons shown in the links of the OP don't seem much different from standard political cartoons, with the exception that they contain racial stereotypes (the ones I looked at anyway). My opinion is that the Muhammed-bomb-turban is more (though not much) offensive due to its breaking of a fundamental tenet of Islam.

However, I do agree that the people on both sides don't have much right to complain about cartoons from the other side.

CFLarsen · 2nd November 2006, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Almo

The Muhammed cartoons do not slightly "satirize and poke fun" at Islam. It is a fundamental tenet of Islam that graven images of the Prophet are inherently wrong. To marginalize the mangnitude of insult from the Muhammed cartoons is to marginalize what an important lesson in free speech their publication was.

The cartoons shown in the links of the OP don't seem much different from standard political cartoons, with the exception that they contain racial stereotypes (the ones I looked at anyway). My opinion is that the Muhammed-bomb-turban is more (though not much) offensive due to its breaking of a fundamental tenet of Islam.

However, I do agree that the people on both sides don't have much right to complain about cartoons from the other side.

First, only 9 of the 12 cartoons can be said to depict Muhammed.

Second, they don't depict "racial" stereotypes. They poke fun at the controversy they cause. E.g., the one of the cartoonist working covertly to depict Muhammed, and the one poking fun at Kåre Bluitgen, the author of the book that sparked the whole controversy.

It is crucial that we remember that the Muhammed Cartoons were not a mindless attempt of smearing Muslims, but a rather clever way of poking a bit of fun at radical Islamism, and the repercussions of having it in our midsts.

What is interesting, but rarely mentioned, is that after all this, Bluitgen's book has been published with depictions of Muhammed, to the sound of silent trumpets. No book burnings, no boycotts of the Danish publisher, no demonstrations when it was published.

This shows that this has nothing to do with the depiction of Muhammed, but only to do with making fun of him. Which, of course, the Muhammed Cartoons never did. They made fun of the exremist Muslims who take Allah hostage in their own fanatical fight for power.

RyanRoberts · 2nd November 2006, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Almo

It is a fundamental tenet of Islam that graven images of the Prophet are inherently wrong.

Which explains all the historical depictions of Mohammed from various Islamic traditions. And besides, we are infidels, not bound by Islamic law.

In an increasingly globalised world, Muslims are going to have to learn to react calmly when someone disses their cosmic teddy bear.

Darth Rotor · 2nd November 2006, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by RyanRoberts

In an increasingly globalised world, Muslims are going to have to learn to react calmly when someone disses their cosmic teddy bear.

Who is going to make them do that? Why do they "have to" learn that? Have you noticed that Muslims are not the only oversensitive identity group on the planet?

DR

Mike B. · 2nd November 2006, 03:07 PM

Hey, it looks like there is a winner in the cartoon contest in Iran.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ory?id=2621602

(Remember this is the country that wanted UN action to stop the "defamation of Islam.")

fuelair · 2nd November 2006, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by neutrino_cannon

Oh dear, I'm not a great link repairer, so I'll summarize.

I picked it up off of google for "Iranian comics anti semitism" or some such. The gist of it was that an Iranian paper was holding a contest for the most offensive possible anti-Israeli... er... anti-zionist comics to test the limits of free speech. Now, how restating government doctrine tests the limits of free speech I'm not sure, but all sorts of delightful things like Anne Frank in bed with Hitler have been drawn up. You know, the kind of stuff that cutting edge political satire, and not inflamatory, reactionist garbage is made of.

Anybody send in one of theleader of Sodomiter City part of Bagdad (forget his name, not that I care) in bed with a sow

? (Or, if he's gay...............)

webfusion · 2nd November 2006, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Mike B.

Hey, it looks like there is a winner in the cartoon contest in Iran.

Never let it be said that you actually followed this thread ---

I bumped it with this very announcement just yesterday.
See post #13

OK, carry on...

Skeptic · 3rd November 2006, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Kerberos

Of course Holocaust denial is only a crime in some European countries, like for example Germany. In others, like say Denmark you can deny the holocaust till you turn blue and face no legal sanction. So since the cartoons where published in Denmark and not Germany, there’s really no hypocrisy there.

As "The Onion" put it, when Iran announced it wants to conduct "objective research" about the holocaust, the reason they deny it is because they think it's too good to be true.

Mike B. · 4th November 2006, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

Never let it be said that you actually followed this thread ---

I bumped it with this very announcement just yesterday.
See post #13

OK, carry on...

sorry

Dave1001 · 4th November 2006, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

Jordan

Bahrain

Oman

United Arab Emirates

Egypt

Qatar

Saudi Arabia

Newspapers

Pot. Kettle. Black.

You and Steve Grenard decided to switch roles out of boredom?

Art Vandelay · 4th November 2006, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Almo

The Muhammed cartoons do not slightly "satirize and poke fun" at Islam. It is a fundamental tenet of Islam that graven images of the Prophet are inherently wrong.

Cite?

Quote:

However, I do agree that the people on both sides don't have much right to complain about cartoons from the other side.

They have a right to complain. They just don't have a right to riot.

Originally Posted by Kerberos

Hypocritical too. I recall an Egyptian newspaper editorial explaining that they had freedom of speech too (really?), but used it in accordance with the human rights (yeah, right!). Further-more it explained that they knew the difference between freedom of speech and ridicule (sure), and that if we used Freedom of speech to offend their symbols we’d have to accept that they used it to offend ours (*gasp*).

The article contained a caricature of the Danish queen in an exotic danser costume costume (the horror! The horror!). It also had an insurance that the au-thors respect for religious symbols (*cough*), meant that he’d never use freedom of speech as an excuse to ridicule them.

What's with all the hyphens? Did you mean "assurance"? And it's "were", not "where". Sorry for the nitpicks, but I find this stuff distracting.

Kerberos · 4th November 2006, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

What's with all the hyphens? Did you mean "assurance"? And it's "were", not "where". Sorry for the nitpicks, but I find this stuff distracting.

I'm honestly 100% not sure where the hyphens came from, though I think it has something to do with copy-pasting (intentional hyphen) it into word, which regrettably doesn't catch where/were or assurance/insurance (a bad translation on my part, the words are the same in Danish) mistakes.

CFLarsen · 5th November 2006, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Dave1001

You and Steve Grenard decided to switch roles out of boredom?

Look at the date. Steve totally copied me.

pipelineaudio · 5th November 2006, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

They made fun of the exremist Muslims who take Allah hostage in their own fanatical fight for power.

You mean, proper muslims who follow the laws of the Koran

In what way are they taking allah hostage? Have you read of this character?

Not only will he burn your skin off, but he will endlessly provide new ones so the pain and torture never stops

Euromutt · 6th November 2006, 03:23 PM

One thing that has consistently bugged me, especially since 9/11, is how when muslims (and particularly Arab muslims) get honked off at the word "crusade," it is incumbent upon us Westerners to be understanding, while at the same time, we're also supposed to not get similarly honked off at muslims' use of the word "jihad." Yes, yes, I know "jihad" also refers to innocuous stuff, like personal struggles to be a better person and whatnot, but the fact is that Westerners have generally been made familiar with the term in the context of violent action directed at themselves. In much the same way that Arabs have been made familiar with the term "crusade," in other words.

Skeptic · 6th November 2006, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by Euromutt

Yes, yes, I know "jihad" also refers to innocuous stuff, like personal struggles to be a better person and whatnot, but the fact is that Westerners have generally been made familiar with the term in the context of violent action directed at themselves. In much the same way that Arabs have been made familiar with the term "crusade," in other words.

Besides, "crusade" also refers to any just war, or more generally to any difficult but worthy undertaking. But it is naturally disgusting imperialism to ask any Muslim or Arab to understand that. "Understanding" is a one-way street: we all must undesrtand Arab and Muslim sensitivities, but there is no recipocal need for them to understand Western or Christian ones, let alone those of ~~the sons of dogs and pigs~~ the jews.

15th February 2006, 01:09 AM	#1
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Guess Denmark isn't the only country with caricatures and "hate speech".... Jordan Bahrain Oman United Arab Emirates Egypt Qatar Saudi Arabia Newspapers Pot. Kettle. Black.
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

15th February 2006, 01:15 AM	#2
neutrino_cannon Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Seventh circle of limbo Posts: 2,575	You forgot Iran.
	__________________ "Man would have been too happy, if, limiting himself to the visible objects which interested him, he had employed, to perfect his real sciences, his laws, his morals, his education, one half-the efforts he has put into his researches on the Divinity" -Percy Bysshe Shelley, The Necessity of Atheism

15th February 2006, 01:25 AM	#3
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Where is a list of cartoons from Iran?
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15th February 2006, 01:43 AM	#4
neutrino_cannon Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Seventh circle of limbo Posts: 2,575	http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/AntiSemi/7800.htm
	__________________ "Man would have been too happy, if, limiting himself to the visible objects which interested him, he had employed, to perfect his real sciences, his laws, his morals, his education, one half-the efforts he has put into his researches on the Divinity" -Percy Bysshe Shelley, The Necessity of Atheism

15th February 2006, 01:54 AM	#5
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Link doesn't work?
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

15th February 2006, 02:01 AM	#6
neutrino_cannon Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Seventh circle of limbo Posts: 2,575	Oh dear, I'm not a great link repairer, so I'll summarize. I picked it up off of google for "Iranian comics anti semitism" or some such. The gist of it was that an Iranian paper was holding a contest for the most offensive possible anti-Israeli... er... anti-zionist comics to test the limits of free speech. Now, how restating government doctrine tests the limits of free speech I'm not sure, but all sorts of delightful things like Anne Frank in bed with Hitler have been drawn up. You know, the kind of stuff that cutting edge political satire, and not inflamatory, reactionist garbage is made of.
	__________________ "Man would have been too happy, if, limiting himself to the visible objects which interested him, he had employed, to perfect his real sciences, his laws, his morals, his education, one half-the efforts he has put into his researches on the Divinity" -Percy Bysshe Shelley, The Necessity of Atheism

15th February 2006, 03:40 AM	#7
NeilC Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,331	You don't mean to say that these countries are total hypocritical bigots do you?

15th February 2006, 03:53 AM	#8
Maledict Muse Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: City of Dis Posts: 520	Originally Posted by Splossy You don't mean to say that these countries are total hypocritical bigots do you? I agree with you there - first they cry foul of the Jyllands-Posten cartoons which slightly satirizes and pokes fun at Islam, and complain about the double standards in western press concerning Christianity, Jews and Holocaust denial (Which, I begrudingly have to say, is the only point that I agree with). Then they go on to do the very same thing to the Jews and the West, whilst holding a mirror image double standard concerning the depiction of Mohammed. The only difference is that the west won't start burning down embassies, rioting, and calling for the death of the authors of the Iranian cartoon contest. As Claus said, Pot. Kettle. Black. I just wish the Middle East would just grow the fck up and get with the modern information age, but alas, they're still stuck in the Medival period. Mostly due to the shtty governments they live under, though, who just collect all the oil wealth for themselves and the ruling elite, without ever having the wealth trickle down to the average citizen. Edit: Woops, put a swear word in there, just corrected it now. I've been spending too much time on SomethingAwful.com
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15th February 2006, 04:02 AM	#9
NeilC Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,331	I think that, to those governments and the extremists, concepts like "free speech" and "human rights" are merely weapons to be used against their enemies.

15th February 2006, 05:18 AM	#10
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,594	Originally Posted by CFLarsen Jordan Bahrain Oman United Arab Emirates Egypt Qatar Saudi Arabia Newspapers Pot. Kettle. Black. This surprises you?
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

15th February 2006, 07:48 AM	#11
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer This surprises you? Not really. But evidence is always nice...
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

15th February 2006, 09:01 AM	#12
vbloke Disturbing shirts Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 722	hey, we need to riot too, guys... http://www.cagle.com/news/Muhammad/images/ofarrell5.gif
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1st November 2006, 07:16 PM	#13
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Originally Posted by neutrino_cannon ... The gist of it was that an Iranian paper was holding a contest for the most offensive possible anti-Israeli... er... anti-zionist comics to test the limits of free speech. Now, how restating government doctrine tests the limits of free speech I'm not sure, but all sorts of delightful things like Anne Frank in bed with Hitler have been drawn up. You know, the kind of stuff that cutting edge political satire, and not inflamatory, reactionist garbage is made of. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/782695.html The 'contest' was sponsored by Tehran daily Hamshahri and a winner has been just announced --- Abdollah Derkaoui received $12,000 for his work depicting an Israeli construction crane piling large cement blocks on Israel's security wall and gradually obscuring Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. A picture of Nazi Germany's Auschwitz concentration camp appears on the wall. The exhibit curator, Masoud Shojai, said the contest would be an annual event. "Actually, we will continue until the destruction of Israel," he said.
	__________________ "You support Israel. Enough said." -- mxwarrior, a rabid anti-Israel JREF poster (now banned) offered this in trying to dismiss all comments offered in rebuttal to him by those JREF'ers who use logic, facts, valid sources, and reality.

1st November 2006, 08:17 PM	#14
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,379	Originally Posted by webfusion The exhibit curator, Masoud Shojai, said the contest would be an annual event. "Actually, we will continue until the destruction of Israel," he said. Is this a similar meme to "Next year, Jerusalem?" DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

1st November 2006, 08:40 PM	#15
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Is this a similar meme to "Next year, Jerusalem?" No. The fervent wish of jews worldwide to be "next year in Jerusalem" (the closing blessing of the traditional passover evening meal) relates to the desire of ushering the moshiach ---- peace & tikkun olam. A far different meme than wishing for 'the destruction of Israel'

1st November 2006, 09:49 PM	#16
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 3,688	Originally Posted by RabbiSatan I agree with you there - first they cry foul of the Jyllands-Posten cartoons which slightly satirizes and pokes fun at Islam, and complain about the double standards in western press concerning Christianity, Jews and Holocaust denial (Which, I begrudingly have to say, is the only point that I agree with). Just to clarify-You agree with those who deny the Holocaust?
	__________________ "Ferchrissakes I am not Jewish..."- Darth Rotor "Well, my nipples are pink. I've never looked at my own butt-hole, but I hope it's pink too." Mycroft "In the military, a gay man might see a wiener, and we all know that when a gay man sees a wiener, he goes into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust."- Marquis de Carabas

1st November 2006, 10:54 PM	#17
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,149	Originally Posted by steverino Just to clarify-You agree with those who deny the Holocaust? I think his "agreement" was on double standards. That is standards that allow mockery of Mohammed on the grounds of freedom of speech, but make holocaust denial a crime. A non-double standard would either make both illegal because they are offensive, or allow both as freedom of speech.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

1st November 2006, 11:52 PM	#18
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by webfusion http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/782695.html The 'contest' was sponsored by Tehran daily Hamshahri and a winner has been just announced --- Abdollah Derkaoui received $12,000 for his work depicting an Israeli construction crane piling large cement blocks on Israel's security wall and gradually obscuring Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. A picture of Nazi Germany's Auschwitz concentration camp appears on the wall. The exhibit curator, Masoud Shojai, said the contest would be an annual event. "Actually, we will continue until the destruction of Israel," he said. That's what I like about Iranian antisemitism: it's so subtle and understated.

1st November 2006, 11:55 PM	#19
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by Splossy You don't mean to say that these countries are total hypocritical bigots do you? Bigots, yes; hypocritical, no. It's not that they claim to support free speech for all, and then hypocritically deny it to those who criticize Islam. They really think that it's OK for Muslims to mock and demonize infidels, but it's wrong for infidels to do the same to Muslims, because Muslims are superior creatures that have more rights than infidels.

2nd November 2006, 01:03 AM	#20
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	Originally Posted by Mycroft I think his "agreement" was on double standards. That is standards that allow mockery of Mohammed on the grounds of freedom of speech, but make holocaust denial a crime. A non-double standard would either make both illegal because they are offensive, or allow both as freedom of speech. Of course Holocaust denial is only a crime in some European countries, like for example Germany. In others, like say Denmark you can deny the holocaust till you turn blue and face no legal sanction. So since the cartoons where published in Denmark and not Germany, there’s really no hypocrisy there.
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	__________________ Bible code: A method for obtaining hidden messages from texts that contains none, for the purpose of predicting events after they happen. "When the facts are on you side, but the law is against you, stress the facts. When the law is on your side, but the facts are against you stress the law. When both the facts and the law is against you, pound the table and yell like hell". Laywer maxim

2nd November 2006, 03:03 AM	#21
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	Originally Posted by Skeptic Bigots, yes; hypocritical, no. It's not that they claim to support free speech for all, and then hypocritically deny it to those who criticize Islam. They really think that it's OK for Muslims to mock and demonize infidels, but it's wrong for infidels to do the same to Muslims, because Muslims are superior creatures that have more rights than infidels. Hypocritical too. I recall an Egyptian newspaper editorial explaining that they had freedom of speech too (really?), but used it in accordance with the human rights (yeah, right!). Further-more it explained that they knew the difference between freedom of speech and ridicule (sure), and that if we used Freedom of speech to offend their symbols we’d have to accept that they used it to offend ours (gasp). The article contained a caricature of the Danish queen in an exotic danser costume costume (the horror! The horror!). It also had an insurance that the au-thors respect for religious symbols (cough), meant that he’d never use freedom of speech as an excuse to ridicule them.
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	__________________ Bible code: A method for obtaining hidden messages from texts that contains none, for the purpose of predicting events after they happen. "When the facts are on you side, but the law is against you, stress the facts. When the law is on your side, but the facts are against you stress the law. When both the facts and the law is against you, pound the table and yell like hell". Laywer maxim Last edited by Kerberos; 2nd November 2006 at 03:05 AM.

2nd November 2006, 05:37 AM	#22
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Kerberos Hypocritical too. I recall an Egyptian newspaper editorial explaining that they had freedom of speech too (really?), but used it in accordance with the human rights (yeah, right!). George Orwell would be proud. Quote: Further-more it explained that they knew the difference between freedom of speech and ridicule (sure), and that if we used Freedom of speech to offend their symbols we’d have to accept that they used it to offend ours (gasp). That is correct, Egyptian sir. Quote: The article contained a caricature of the Danish queen in an exotic danser costume costume (the horror! The horror!). It also had an insurance that the au-thors respect for religious symbols (cough), meant that he’d never use freedom of speech as an excuse to ridicule them. That is called responsibility. However, free people reserve the right to mercilessly mock things. That is what freedom of speech is about -- using speech to affect other people and how they think about things.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

2nd November 2006, 06:00 AM	#23
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Originally Posted by Beerina That is called responsibility. However, free people reserve the right to mercilessly mock things. That is what freedom of speech is about -- using speech to affect other people and how they think about things. What I find most revealing is that the Iranian cartoons, and from other countries, that are supposed to be sooooooo offensive to us....aren't. They just aren't. It's crude humor. It's the same, tired cliches: Israel and Bush humping each other, while swastikas are dropped generously all over the place? The Danish PM in bed with a Kurdish politician? Yawn. Sheesh....get some new material, OK? It's not funny! Vicious, perhaps. But not funny. Danes are not offended by seeing a cartoon of the Danish Queen as an exotic dancer. You have no idea how the Danish Queen and the Danish PM are depicted in Danish publications, e.g. the annual satiricals "Svikmøllen" and "Blæksprutten" ("Vicious Circle" and "The Octopus"). Any cartoon there is far "worse" than anything I have ever seen in Arab media. Not because it is cruder - Danish humour is rarely crude. The best form of humour is not crude, but instead precise. The best humour hits a nerve, without resorting to cliches. Being mean is not funny, but hitting a nerve, making people stop and think - that can be devastating to those in power.
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2nd November 2006, 08:24 AM	#24
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,149	Originally Posted by Skeptic That's what I like about Iranian antisemitism: it's so subtle and understated. Hush, you. That's not anti-Semitism, that's anti-Zionism!* *Pre 1948 it's anti-Semitism. Post 1948 it's anti-Zionism.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

2nd November 2006, 10:16 AM	#25
Almo Masterblazer Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 6,414	Originally Posted by RabbiSatan I agree with you there - first they cry foul of the Jyllands-Posten cartoons which slightly satirizes and pokes fun at Islam, The Muhammed cartoons do not slightly "satirize and poke fun" at Islam. It is a fundamental tenet of Islam that graven images of the Prophet are inherently wrong. To marginalize the mangnitude of insult from the Muhammed cartoons is to marginalize what an important lesson in free speech their publication was. The cartoons shown in the links of the OP don't seem much different from standard political cartoons, with the exception that they contain racial stereotypes (the ones I looked at anyway). My opinion is that the Muhammed-bomb-turban is more (though not much) offensive due to its breaking of a fundamental tenet of Islam. However, I do agree that the people on both sides don't have much right to complain about cartoons from the other side.
	__________________ Almo! My Blog "No society ever collapsed because the poor had too much." — LeftySergeant "It may be that there is no body really at rest, to which the places and motions of others may be referred." –Issac Newton in the Principia

2nd November 2006, 12:31 PM	#26
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Originally Posted by Almo The Muhammed cartoons do not slightly "satirize and poke fun" at Islam. It is a fundamental tenet of Islam that graven images of the Prophet are inherently wrong. To marginalize the mangnitude of insult from the Muhammed cartoons is to marginalize what an important lesson in free speech their publication was. The cartoons shown in the links of the OP don't seem much different from standard political cartoons, with the exception that they contain racial stereotypes (the ones I looked at anyway). My opinion is that the Muhammed-bomb-turban is more (though not much) offensive due to its breaking of a fundamental tenet of Islam. However, I do agree that the people on both sides don't have much right to complain about cartoons from the other side. First, only 9 of the 12 cartoons can be said to depict Muhammed. Second, they don't depict "racial" stereotypes. They poke fun at the controversy they cause. E.g., the one of the cartoonist working covertly to depict Muhammed, and the one poking fun at Kåre Bluitgen, the author of the book that sparked the whole controversy. It is crucial that we remember that the Muhammed Cartoons were not a mindless attempt of smearing Muslims, but a rather clever way of poking a bit of fun at radical Islamism, and the repercussions of having it in our midsts. What is interesting, but rarely mentioned, is that after all this, Bluitgen's book has been published with depictions of Muhammed, to the sound of silent trumpets. No book burnings, no boycotts of the Danish publisher, no demonstrations when it was published. This shows that this has nothing to do with the depiction of Muhammed, but only to do with making fun of him. Which, of course, the Muhammed Cartoons never did. They made fun of the exremist Muslims who take Allah hostage in their own fanatical fight for power.
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2nd November 2006, 12:42 PM	#27
RyanRoberts Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Manchester Posts: 308	Originally Posted by Almo It is a fundamental tenet of Islam that graven images of the Prophet are inherently wrong. Which explains all the historical depictions of Mohammed from various Islamic traditions. And besides, we are infidels, not bound by Islamic law. In an increasingly globalised world, Muslims are going to have to learn to react calmly when someone disses their cosmic teddy bear.

2nd November 2006, 12:53 PM	#28
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,379	Originally Posted by RyanRoberts In an increasingly globalised world, Muslims are going to have to learn to react calmly when someone disses their cosmic teddy bear. Who is going to make them do that? Why do they "have to" learn that? Have you noticed that Muslims are not the only oversensitive identity group on the planet? DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

2nd November 2006, 03:07 PM	#29
Mike B. Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,186	Hey, it looks like there is a winner in the cartoon contest in Iran. http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ory?id=2621602 (Remember this is the country that wanted UN action to stop the "defamation of Islam.")
Mike B. Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,186

2nd November 2006, 03:26 PM	#30
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,321	Originally Posted by neutrino_cannon Oh dear, I'm not a great link repairer, so I'll summarize. I picked it up off of google for "Iranian comics anti semitism" or some such. The gist of it was that an Iranian paper was holding a contest for the most offensive possible anti-Israeli... er... anti-zionist comics to test the limits of free speech. Now, how restating government doctrine tests the limits of free speech I'm not sure, but all sorts of delightful things like Anne Frank in bed with Hitler have been drawn up. You know, the kind of stuff that cutting edge political satire, and not inflamatory, reactionist garbage is made of. Anybody send in one of theleader of Sodomiter City part of Bagdad (forget his name, not that I care) in bed with a sow ? (Or, if he's gay...............)
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,321

2nd November 2006, 05:34 PM	#31
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Originally Posted by Mike B. Hey, it looks like there is a winner in the cartoon contest in Iran. Never let it be said that you actually followed this thread --- I bumped it with this very announcement just yesterday. See post #13 OK, carry on...

3rd November 2006, 10:50 PM	#32
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by Kerberos Of course Holocaust denial is only a crime in some European countries, like for example Germany. In others, like say Denmark you can deny the holocaust till you turn blue and face no legal sanction. So since the cartoons where published in Denmark and not Germany, there’s really no hypocrisy there. As "The Onion" put it, when Iran announced it wants to conduct "objective research" about the holocaust, the reason they deny it is because they think it's too good to be true.

4th November 2006, 12:02 PM	#33
Mike B. Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,186	Originally Posted by webfusion Never let it be said that you actually followed this thread --- I bumped it with this very announcement just yesterday. See post #13 OK, carry on... sorry
Mike B. Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,186

4th November 2006, 01:35 PM	#34
Dave1001 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,717	Originally Posted by CFLarsen Jordan Bahrain Oman United Arab Emirates Egypt Qatar Saudi Arabia Newspapers Pot. Kettle. Black. You and Steve Grenard decided to switch roles out of boredom?
Dave1001 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,717	__________________ I'm here to discuss ideas, not to get personal. I won't criticize you personally, please don't criticize me personally. I won't direct ad hominems at you, please don't direct ad hominems at me. I won't attack you or put you down, please don't attack me or put me down. Thanks.

4th November 2006, 04:30 PM	#35
Art Vandelay Illuminator Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 4,790	Originally Posted by Almo The Muhammed cartoons do not slightly "satirize and poke fun" at Islam. It is a fundamental tenet of Islam that graven images of the Prophet are inherently wrong. Cite? Quote: However, I do agree that the people on both sides don't have much right to complain about cartoons from the other side. They have a right to complain. They just don't have a right to riot. Originally Posted by Kerberos Hypocritical too. I recall an Egyptian newspaper editorial explaining that they had freedom of speech too (really?), but used it in accordance with the human rights (yeah, right!). Further-more it explained that they knew the difference between freedom of speech and ridicule (sure), and that if we used Freedom of speech to offend their symbols we’d have to accept that they used it to offend ours (gasp). The article contained a caricature of the Danish queen in an exotic danser costume costume (the horror! The horror!). It also had an insurance that the au-thors respect for religious symbols (cough), meant that he’d never use freedom of speech as an excuse to ridicule them. What's with all the hyphens? Did you mean "assurance"? And it's "were", not "where". Sorry for the nitpicks, but I find this stuff distracting.