Germans not free to insult religion?

luchog · 23rd February 2006, 06:00 PM

German court convicts man for insulting Islam

Okay, what the guy did was quite amazingly rude, inexcusably so; but a conviction for insulting a religion? Not harassment, not "hate speech", but "insulting religion"; a crime that carries up to a 3 year jail sentence. (I'm curious if German criminal code differentiates between crimes the way we do here -- misdemeanor vs. felony, and degrees of offense.) I'd be interested in the actual contents of the letter that he sent with the toilet paper, as well. Could be something more to it than the news article mentions.

I've seen the toilet paper for sale online.

For all the complaints that the US is a theocracy, or moving in that direction, such a case would be unthinkable here. In the US he could have been nailed for harrasment, possible more, depending on the content of the letter; or at the very least ended up with a half-dozen restraining orders. He could not have been prosecuted, or even sued in civil court, for simply being insulting to religion.

Maybe certain people should get their own houses in order before complaining about the US.

bignickel · 23rd February 2006, 06:13 PM

So, in Germany, the penalty for insulting the FGM or Bob of the Subgenious is up to 3 years in prison?

"He who insults His Noodley Appendage must be careful of picking up the soap."

How about if David Irving had declared his own 'religion', in which his own 'bible' said the Holocaust never happened? If he had been arrested in Germany, rather than Austria, would his prosecuters themselves be prosecuted for insulting his religion?

NeilC · 24th February 2006, 01:33 AM

That would be OK because continued outright lying and preaching of tribal, religious and ethnic hatred is part and parcel of the main religions.

ZeeGerman · 24th February 2006, 06:02 AM

The corresponding paragraph of the "Strafgesetzbuch" (criminal code) is §166

Quote:

(1) Wer öffentlich oder durch Verbreiten von Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3) den Inhalt des religiösen oder weltanschaulichen Bekenntnisses anderer in einer Weise beschimpft, die geeignet ist, den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft.

(2) Ebenso wird bestraft, wer öffentlich oder durch Verbreiten von Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3) eine im Inland bestehende Kirche oder andere Religionsgesellschaft oder Weltanschauungsvereinigung, ihre Einrichtungen oder Gebräuche in einer Weise beschimpft, die geeignet ist, den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören.

It says basically that the act of insulting a religious belief in a way that is prone to disturb public peace can get you up to three years.

So the act per se is not actionable, it has to been seen in the current social/political context. In the context of the killing of Theo van Gogh (one of the motives of the defendant) half a year earlier, sending the stuff to isalmic communities and several mosques, I would say that the sentence of a year with probation is hard but not outragous.

Zee

Beerina · 24th February 2006, 07:23 AM

But all that will do is cause the creation of feigning great offense for the purpose of silencing critics. The US has slipped way down this slippery slope since the only way a lot of laws can get passed is for people to claim massive psychological damage.

I'd advise against allowing that.

bignickel · 25th February 2006, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by ZeeGerman

It says basically that the act of insulting a religious belief in a way that is prone to disturb public peace can get you up to three years.

Well, considering the rioting done by fanatical muslims over a 'cartoon' that they felt insulted the Prophet... I would figure that if anyone published the cartoon in Germany, they would be arrested, since it's VERY definitely going to disturb the public peace.

CapelDodger · 25th February 2006, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by bignickel

Well, considering the rioting done by fanatical muslims over a 'cartoon' that they felt insulted the Prophet... I would figure that if anyone published the cartoon in Germany, they would be arrested, since it's VERY definitely going to disturb the public peace.

What rioting are you referring to?

shecky · 25th February 2006, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by luchog

Maybe certain people should get their own houses in order before complaining about the US.

What do Germany's screwed up speech laws have to do with certain people's disgust over America's screwed up religious culture? Do Americans have no right to complain because it sould be worse?

luchog · 26th February 2006, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by shecky

What do Germany's screwed up speech laws have to do with certain people's disgust over America's screwed up religious culture? Do Americans have no right to complain because it sould be worse?

More sort of pointing out the hypocrisy. American's aren't the only first-world nation with a screwed-up religious culture; apparently.

23rd February 2006, 06:00 PM	#1
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 7,957	Germans not free to insult religion? German court convicts man for insulting Islam Okay, what the guy did was quite amazingly rude, inexcusably so; but a conviction for insulting a religion? Not harassment, not "hate speech", but "insulting religion"; a crime that carries up to a 3 year jail sentence. (I'm curious if German criminal code differentiates between crimes the way we do here -- misdemeanor vs. felony, and degrees of offense.) I'd be interested in the actual contents of the letter that he sent with the toilet paper, as well. Could be something more to it than the news article mentions. I've seen the toilet paper for sale online. For all the complaints that the US is a theocracy, or moving in that direction, such a case would be unthinkable here. In the US he could have been nailed for harrasment, possible more, depending on the content of the letter; or at the very least ended up with a half-dozen restraining orders. He could not have been prosecuted, or even sued in civil court, for simply being insulting to religion. Maybe certain people should get their own houses in order before complaining about the US.
	__________________ "All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams "The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf "Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

23rd February 2006, 06:13 PM	#2
bignickel Mad Mod Poet God Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 2,724	So, in Germany, the penalty for insulting the FGM or Bob of the Subgenious is up to 3 years in prison? "He who insults His Noodley Appendage must be careful of picking up the soap." How about if David Irving had declared his own 'religion', in which his own 'bible' said the Holocaust never happened? If he had been arrested in Germany, rather than Austria, would his prosecuters themselves be prosecuted for insulting his religion?
	__________________ "You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real. I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that." - Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone

24th February 2006, 06:02 AM	#4
ZeeGerman Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Just far enough from Detroit that it's OK Posts: 784	The corresponding paragraph of the "Strafgesetzbuch" (criminal code) is §166 Quote: (1) Wer öffentlich oder durch Verbreiten von Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3) den Inhalt des religiösen oder weltanschaulichen Bekenntnisses anderer in einer Weise beschimpft, die geeignet ist, den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft. (2) Ebenso wird bestraft, wer öffentlich oder durch Verbreiten von Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3) eine im Inland bestehende Kirche oder andere Religionsgesellschaft oder Weltanschauungsvereinigung, ihre Einrichtungen oder Gebräuche in einer Weise beschimpft, die geeignet ist, den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören. It says basically that the act of insulting a religious belief in a way that is prone to disturb public peace can get you up to three years. So the act per se is not actionable, it has to been seen in the current social/political context. In the context of the killing of Theo van Gogh (one of the motives of the defendant) half a year earlier, sending the stuff to isalmic communities and several mosques, I would say that the sentence of a year with probation is hard but not outragous. Zee
	__________________ Wenn die Katze ein Pferd wäre, könnte man die Bäume raufreiten. Afta ol, ve arr frrom ze lend of tschoklet (The Simpsons "Das Kraftwerk")

24th February 2006, 07:23 AM	#5
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	But all that will do is cause the creation of feigning great offense for the purpose of silencing critics. The US has slipped way down this slippery slope since the only way a lot of laws can get passed is for people to claim massive psychological damage. I'd advise against allowing that.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

25th February 2006, 07:15 AM	#6
bignickel Mad Mod Poet God Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 2,724	Originally Posted by ZeeGerman It says basically that the act of insulting a religious belief in a way that is prone to disturb public peace can get you up to three years. Well, considering the rioting done by fanatical muslims over a 'cartoon' that they felt insulted the Prophet... I would figure that if anyone published the cartoon in Germany, they would be arrested, since it's VERY definitely going to disturb the public peace.
	__________________ "You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real. I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that." - Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone

24th February 2006, 01:33 AM	#3
NeilC Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,331	That would be OK because continued outright lying and preaching of tribal, religious and ethnic hatred is part and parcel of the main religions.

25th February 2006, 04:17 PM	#7
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,741	Originally Posted by bignickel Well, considering the rioting done by fanatical muslims over a 'cartoon' that they felt insulted the Prophet... I would figure that if anyone published the cartoon in Germany, they would be arrested, since it's VERY definitely going to disturb the public peace. What rioting are you referring to?
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

25th February 2006, 04:58 PM	#8
shecky Master Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: Home of the Homeless Posts: 2,190	Originally Posted by luchog Maybe certain people should get their own houses in order before complaining about the US. What do Germany's screwed up speech laws have to do with certain people's disgust over America's screwed up religious culture? Do Americans have no right to complain because it sould be worse?

26th February 2006, 01:08 PM	#9
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 7,957	Originally Posted by shecky What do Germany's screwed up speech laws have to do with certain people's disgust over America's screwed up religious culture? Do Americans have no right to complain because it sould be worse? More sort of pointing out the hypocrisy. American's aren't the only first-world nation with a screwed-up religious culture; apparently.
	__________________ "All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams "The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf "Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon