Wireless Routers

asthmatic camel · 23rd February 2006, 11:36 PM

I recently bought a wireless router in order to set up a home network, and took the necessary steps to secure it. Amazingly, when I scan for available wireless network connections, I find three that are always on, and which I can use freely.

Presumably, these belong to neighbours who don't know what they're doing. I'm considering cancelling my contract with NTL and using these suckers' connections for nothing!

Aren't they leaving themselves wide open to some potentially very serious problems?

El Greco · 23rd February 2006, 11:57 PM

Can you actually connect and download stuff ? Because I think that with some encryptions you can connect but the connection will keep dropping every few seconds.

asthmatic camel · 24th February 2006, 12:32 AM

Yep, I can download stuff and use the connections as though they were my own. Windows shows them as "unsecured wireless networks".

Diabolos · 24th February 2006, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by asthmatic camel

Aren't they leaving themselves wide open to some potentially very serious problems?

Definitely. And so will you be if you knowingly use their connection since it's been ruled illegal in the UK (assume that's where you are since you mentioned NTL).

It's incredible just how many unsecured wireless networks there are around. There are even people that travel around seeking them out (called "wardriving") just to get a free ride, and if they use that connection to visit illegal sites etc. then it's the victim's IP address that will be traced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardriving

MRC_Hans · 24th February 2006, 01:07 AM

That must be considered very "unsafe sex". They are crazy. However, using them is still theft. Just because your neighboor is silly enough to leave his door open, you are still not allowed to walk away with his things.

Now, if they have a flat-rate connection, they may think that they loose nothing, except perhaps some bandwidth, but if somebody (present company excluded, of course) starts to download pirated music or kiddie porn over their connection, they can get into serious trouble.

Hans

ETA: I see Diabolos wrote essentialle the same thing while I was typing

.

asthmatic camel · 24th February 2006, 02:37 AM

I'd kind of guessed that using someone else's connection might be against the law but wasn't sure, so thanks for that. As it happens, I'm not interested in getting a free ride or downloading illegal stuff, but it just struck me that maybe warnings should be prominent on the packaging of these things.

You wouldn't want Genghis Pwn using your unsecured wireless connection, would you?

ETA, I didn't notice for a while that my PC was automatically using these connections whenever my own was down for some reason. Now, I wasn't "knowingly" doing this, but shouldn't Micro$oft be doing something about this, as it would be difficult to prove in court whether I knew or not, wouldn't it?

MRC_Hans · 24th February 2006, 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by asthmatic camel

I'd kind of guessed that using someone else's connection might be against the law but wasn't sure, so thanks for that. As it happens, I'm not interested in getting a free ride or downloading illegal stuff, but it just struck me that maybe warnings should be prominent on the packaging of these things.

It does say in the manual that you should set encryption.

Quote:

You wouldn't want Genghis Pwn using your unsecured wireless connection, would you?

Quote:

ETA, I didn't notice for a while that my PC was automatically using these connections whenever my own was down for some reason. Now, I wasn't "knowingly" doing this, but shouldn't Micro$oft be doing something about this, as it would be difficult to prove in court whether I knew or not, wouldn't it?

Well, I hardly think that you could be punished as long as you didn't use the connection for something illegal. Problem is if Genghis Pwn was also on the line

.

But all, in all, I think they would have to prove that you did something illegal, and that you intentionally used the connection. Of course, unintentionally using it is still not legal, but the consequences have to be very limited. Like taking the wrong coat in a wardrobe.

Hans

Tirdun · 24th February 2006, 03:10 AM

I've set up several wireless networks for friends and family. The first time I was working on the router upstairs when the friend walked in and said "hey, thanks for setting that all up, I'm online". I was a bit taken aback, as the router was still sitting on the floor amidst the packing material, unplugged, and I was trying to run a USB cable through the rats nest of cables hooked up to his desktop. I mentioned that the company must be doing a hellofa job to build such a marvel. Some quick investigation revealed a neighbor a few houses down had a wireless setup with a very generic name, and my friend had assumed it was the correct one.

The second setup was similar. In fact, the router I set up showed up second on the network list, as the guy in the next apartment had a stronger signal.

I was pleasantly surprised when I set up my home network. One other network on the list, telling me "no free rides".

In both other cases the friends mentioned to the neighbors that their networks were open doors.

moopet · 24th February 2006, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Tirdun

In both other cases the friends mentioned to the neighbors that their networks were open doors.

I hope they did this the fun way - browse their network to find a shared printer and print out a warning in 72pt impact... repeated...

Zbu · 24th February 2006, 12:26 PM

Ha!

You know, I was going to get a wireless router just in case I ever needed it for a laptop or something. You know what? Not anymore! I'm just going to stick with wired for now on.

Soapy Sam · 24th February 2006, 02:38 PM

She who must be obeyed was recently horrified when I switched on her wifi enabled laptop in her living room and found an unsecured network in the house across the street.
Two teenage boys. We discreetly withdrew.

I then checked the encryption on my own wifi net, (40 miles away) and found the default router settings were not a great deal better.

Yes. There should be more prominent warnings on the box or in the setup manuals.

Dark Jaguar · 24th February 2006, 02:49 PM

I myself run an unsecure network, and I don't care. I highly doubt I need to worry about people within 50 meters of my router. If something is traced to me, I only need point out that I'm using an open connection and thus they at least need to expand their "net" to people within that radius.

Why do I do that? It's nice to just pop open any wireless device and be able to instantly connect to the network without going through the same tired old 3000 character long password input procedure. When the risks outweigh my own sloth, THEN I'll worry about it. As it is, the wifi part of my router is "seperate" from the wired network so I don't need to worry about people snooping around my files or using my printer.

Looking into my wifi router, I often see a neighber using it, possibly by accident, as that person's network is also unsecure.

sesmo_k · 24th February 2006, 02:49 PM

My bf recently bought a PC with wifi installed. It picked up a network from the flat upstairs. The oldish lady who lived there was duly informed. Amazing thing is, she had been wondering why she kept hitting her bandwidth limit so quickly... and hadn't done anything about it. The bf being the kind geek that he is sorted it out for her, she'd been downloading 5gb a day (alledgedly), her limit was 20gb a month!

Soapy Sam · 25th February 2006, 04:42 AM

DJ- You are probably right at the moment, but as the use of wifi increases, the probability of someone abusing your network connection is likely to increase.
After the initial router setup, it only takes entry of an 8 letter key to install a new machine on my network. I'm using WEP encryption ,which is not the most secure, but it's primarily the casual , often accidental eavesdropper I want to avoid - of which we have several examples in this thread alone.

Also the sort of twit willing to drive around logging onto peoples' networks is, by definition, unlikely to be benign. If someone like that uses your connection even once, you could find you have problems out of all proportion to the cost of prevention.
If ten minutes setting up can move him on, it's like taking time to put a chain on the door- a small investment given the potential for damage.

You know your own situation best, but my advice is to set up some security.

ohms · 25th February 2006, 09:45 AM

I guess I'm a bit more paranoid than the rest of you. I use WPA encryption and have access control turned on (limits which MAC addresses can connect to my router). Nobody is going to get a free ride off me thank you very much.

tkingdoll · 25th February 2006, 10:39 AM

I recently went wireless through British Telecom. The router they provided has an encryption key (WEP) on the bottom that has to be typed in to access the network. Is that secure enough or can someone bypass that if they know how?

TragicMonkey · 25th February 2006, 11:14 AM

I don't even have a cordless phone. I don't trust this newfangled technology, consarn it. Sending messages through the air? Demonic, no doubt!

Tirdun · 25th February 2006, 11:31 AM

I run WEP encryption and MAC allowances, and it isn't that difficult to set up. The pass keys are 10 characters long, or you can set up WPA access that uses a passkey you create. If you have rugrats with Nintendo DS's, then you'll be running the WEP protocol, since DS supports it.

tkingdoll · 25th February 2006, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Tirdun

I run WEP encryption and MAC allowances, and it isn't that difficult to set up. The pass keys are 10 characters long, or you can set up WPA access that uses a passkey you create. If you have rugrats with Nintendo DS's, then you'll be running the WEP protocol, since DS supports it.

Actually, the DS is aimed at adult gamers.

Rugrats indeed (mutter mutter)

Why else would I have gone wireless?

*goes and cuddles her DS*

Soapy Sam · 25th February 2006, 01:05 PM

tk- I think you're fine unless you have a reason to suspect someone is out to get you- like you happen to have the serial numbers of £50 million in used fivers on your hard drive.
Best if you can set the MAC numbers that are permitted and stop the router broadcasting the network ID. That way it would take a serious hacker to get onto your system. It's more casual abusers of a totally open system we need to protect against, or the kids next door stealing our porn.

scribble · 25th February 2006, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Tirdun

I run WEP encryption and MAC allowances, and it isn't that difficult to set up. The pass keys are 10 characters long, or you can set up WPA access that uses a passkey you create. If you have rugrats with Nintendo DS's, then you'll be running the WEP protocol, since DS supports it.

I think most of us don't have to worry beyond WEP, but it's important for you to realize, these days, WEP is only a "keep out" sign. And if someone in your neighborhood needs an access point, and everyone else is WAP, your WEP is going to be his first choice.

You can crack an average WEP network in minutes. It's fun and educational; I suggest to everyone that you try it. Here's some places to start:

http://www.tomsnetworking.com/Sections-article118.php

Personally, I use a Linksys WRT54G, on which I have installed OpenWrt ( http://openwrt.org ) and for the technically inclined, it's the single coolest piece of hardware you can buy for under $100, bar none. If you have experience with iptables in linux, you *must* own one.

scribble · 25th February 2006, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Best if you can set the MAC numbers that are permitted and stop the router broadcasting the network ID. That way it would take a serious hacker to get onto your system. It's more casual abusers of a totally open system we need to protect against, or the kids next door stealing our porn.

NetStumbler or Kismet means the kids next door can easily see your hidden ESSID, crack your WEP key, and access your WiFi. No experience necessary. Setting a MAC address is trivial. It's next to impossible to trust a mac address on WiFi - at least ona wired LAN you can hope the spoofer will be on another port on a switch or similar so you can detect the fakery. With WiFi validating on a mac is truly pointless.

Trifikas · 25th February 2006, 01:21 PM

It can get worse, too.

I was working on my Sister's network, and were picking up several wireless clouds with the same name as the router manufacturer. I renamed hers to be able to find it, but couldn't figure out why one computer connected and another of hers didn't.

So after a few tries, unplugged the power from her router...and still picked up the renamed wireless network...

You do have to be careful though. If they're that lax about security you may not WANT to put your computer onto their network.

Trif

tkingdoll · 25th February 2006, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

tk- I think you're fine unless you have a reason to suspect someone is out to get you- like you happen to have the serial numbers of £50 million in used fivers on your hard drive.

How did you know?

I should be OK then. I was hoping to abuse the range by allowing my sister in the apartment downstairs to use my connection, but it's a bit to far away, sadly.

blutoski · 25th February 2006, 02:04 PM

I sold internet connections for a telco for several years, and we had a home networking package that we preferred to set up (WEP) with our own field technicians to eliminate wardriving.

The biggest risk I'm aware of is that when a user links into a stranger's wireless internet connection, his computers are exposed, and his traffic is going through somebody else's router. If you have file sharing on, they can snoop your files. Even if file sharing is off, if you don't transmit webpages or email via ssh, they can packet-sniff and read your activity.

We have had cases where the routers were intentionally left open as a trap for criminals who sift packet logs for sensitive information.

This is absolutely becoming a bigger problem. Just in my own local range, I have sixteen home networks visible, ten of which are open.

Chris Haynes · 27th February 2006, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

....
Best if you can set the MAC numbers that are permitted and stop the router broadcasting the network ID. That way it would take a serious hacker to get onto your system. It's more casual abusers of a totally open system we need to protect against, or the kids next door stealing our porn.

We've just enabled the MAC number allowed system this weekend (along with the other protections). One child was spending too much time (like until 3 and 4 in the morning) playing World of Warcraft. After being told twice to turn it off and go to bed, his laptop was not allowed on the network for all of Sunday.

So it also works for the kids who live with us.

kevin · 28th February 2006, 02:12 PM

Using someone else's router isn't strictly illegal in the US. If you're ISP charges by the byte and extra for overages than it probably is. In the US most customers pay a flat per month rate for a particular speed but unlimited bytes.

It is frequently against an ISP's terms of service to share your wireless router with others.

My ISP on the other hand will help you bill neighbors for usage, so you can get a T1 and connect everyone wirelessly and they'll help you split the bill.

If you don't want split the bill but just be nice and share your connection, my ISP is all for that too -- perfectly ok in their terms of service. This is what I do. I have 2 wireless routers, one locked down for me, one open to the world. I let my neighbors know they can use it by setting the SSID to freewireless

Dark Jaguar · 28th February 2006, 08:05 PM

It's just that I don't see my next door neighbors as malicious hackers.

Further, anything beyond WEP, which is apparently about as secure as chewing gum, is just going to get in the way. I use my router to make things easier, so I don't need to string wires all over the house (which would be the most secure method of all). If I'm not able to use a lot of things just because they don't support WEP, then forget about it. I have a firewall blocking access from the wifi router to my wired router anyway, that should be sufficient.

Soapy Sam · 1st March 2006, 12:51 AM

They (your neighbours) probably are not. I have read a couple of magazine items about people driving around with a laptop , deliberately seeking unsecured networks and logging on , then using the networked pcs as forwarding routes for spam. All anecdotal.
How common this is was clearly unknown. I would think in most domestic neighbourhoods a man sitting in a car with a laptop would be noticed. Maybe not in a van though.

Still, I think from the info in this thread the main risk is the simple embarrassment of neighbours accidentally finding each others' networks and being able to access personal data. I think WEP and MAC restriction should be adequate to prevent that sort of problem. Serious hackers are another issue .

My main PC is linked to the router by ethernet cable anyway, having no wifi card. The data files are not shared to the network. I imagine that will be a pretty common setup.

JOKER · 1st March 2006, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

They (your neighbours) probably are not. I have read a couple of magazine items about people driving around with a laptop , deliberately seeking unsecured networks and logging on

I know DEFCON has war driving contests that cover all of the Las Vegas Area. Although it is from 2003, this link shows plenty of open AP's in Vegas and that's not even within neighborhoods, just using major arterial streets: http://www.worldwidewardrive.org/dc1.../wardrive.html

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

How common this is was clearly unknown. I would think in most domestic neighbourhoods a man sitting in a car with a laptop would be noticed. Maybe not in a van though.

Very true, but with a powerful antenna, you can pickup plenty. Not saying a powerful antenna would pickup a weak AP signal, but I can pickup 6 AP's from my laptop, 3 unsecured. I am using WPA2 and labeled my AP the same as the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police. Some neighbors told me they found my AP and stayed away from it, but labeling it as such makes it a curious target to the local hackers. Now if they could only hack WPA2. I'm hoping not.

Just FYI, a team in 2005 went 125 miles with a 802.11B connection using a $30 PCMCIA card.....and plenty of other stuff too: http://www.unwiredadventures.com/unw..._wifi_sho.html

Tirdun · 1st March 2006, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

Actually, the DS is aimed at adult gamers.
Rugrats indeed (mutter mutter)
Why else would I have gone wireless?
*goes and cuddles her DS*

Ah, now. No offense intended. MY personal set of rugrats and their friends have DSes, so my network allows (within certain timeframes) those DSes to connect to the world. I was running a different encryption prior to their informing me of its WiFi to the world capabilities.

Dark Jaguar · 1st March 2006, 02:23 PM

Just so you know, actually I don't bother with a chain on my door either. It's a pretty safe neighborhood, and someone parking in the street is not just frowned upon, tow trucks are called (our two lane street is still usable as a two lane street, unlike some neighborhoods).

I will say this. Someone with a wifi connection simply won't see any of my shared files. They will have to connect directly with a wire to be able to see any of the shares. It's a weakness really, as it prevents wireless printing, but it's not a big deal to me because while I want free net access for all who enter the door with no fuss, I don't want to let them print anything or access my wired computers.

To point, my security standards may be unbelievably low, but they do exist. Hence, I keep a firewall open, and though that has had some annoying problems, once I finally discovered the wonders of UPNP (the features of which I had always thought to myself "someone should do that", but never bothered looking into to see if someone DID do that until recently) those problems are solved.

Further, while I have an open gate policy, I am VERY strict about what I install on my computer. I do not worry about computer viruses... virii, viriati... whatever the plural of that is, because I have a good antivirus program and always download OS security updates, but also due to my standards. I never download something I see no real use for, for example a 6 gig program to sort my image files based on personal tastes, or a weathertracking program. I simply don't have any applications running in the background unless I am currently USING said application, save for the antivirus program.

23rd February 2006, 11:36 PM	#1
asthmatic camel ignoramus Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 4,540	Wireless Routers I recently bought a wireless router in order to set up a home network, and took the necessary steps to secure it. Amazingly, when I scan for available wireless network connections, I find three that are always on, and which I can use freely. Presumably, these belong to neighbours who don't know what they're doing. I'm considering cancelling my contract with NTL and using these suckers' connections for nothing! Aren't they leaving themselves wide open to some potentially very serious problems?
	__________________ www.stopsylvia.com

23rd February 2006, 11:57 PM	#2
El Greco Summer worshipper Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Παρά θιν'αλός Posts: 14,275	Can you actually connect and download stuff ? Because I think that with some encryptions you can connect but the connection will keep dropping every few seconds.
	__________________ "Robbing a bank is no crime compared to owning one" - Bertolt Brecht "Let it go and come to bed already, El Greco" - MoeFaux

24th February 2006, 12:32 AM	#3
asthmatic camel ignoramus Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 4,540	Yep, I can download stuff and use the connections as though they were my own. Windows shows them as "unsecured wireless networks".
	__________________ www.stopsylvia.com

24th February 2006, 01:06 AM	#4
Diabolos Thinker Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 211	Originally Posted by asthmatic camel Aren't they leaving themselves wide open to some potentially very serious problems? Definitely. And so will you be if you knowingly use their connection since it's been ruled illegal in the UK (assume that's where you are since you mentioned NTL). It's incredible just how many unsecured wireless networks there are around. There are even people that travel around seeking them out (called "wardriving") just to get a free ride, and if they use that connection to visit illegal sites etc. then it's the victim's IP address that will be traced. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardriving
Diabolos Thinker Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 211	__________________ "What I say is true because you can't prove it isn't, and what you say is wrong because I don't understand it."

24th February 2006, 01:07 AM	#5
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,602	That must be considered very "unsafe sex". They are crazy. However, using them is still theft. Just because your neighboor is silly enough to leave his door open, you are still not allowed to walk away with his things. Now, if they have a flat-rate connection, they may think that they loose nothing, except perhaps some bandwidth, but if somebody (present company excluded, of course) starts to download pirated music or kiddie porn over their connection, they can get into serious trouble. Hans ETA: I see Diabolos wrote essentialle the same thing while I was typing .
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

24th February 2006, 02:37 AM	#6
asthmatic camel ignoramus Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 4,540	I'd kind of guessed that using someone else's connection might be against the law but wasn't sure, so thanks for that. As it happens, I'm not interested in getting a free ride or downloading illegal stuff, but it just struck me that maybe warnings should be prominent on the packaging of these things. You wouldn't want Genghis Pwn using your unsecured wireless connection, would you? ETA, I didn't notice for a while that my PC was automatically using these connections whenever my own was down for some reason. Now, I wasn't "knowingly" doing this, but shouldn't Micro$oft be doing something about this, as it would be difficult to prove in court whether I knew or not, wouldn't it?
	__________________ www.stopsylvia.com Last edited by asthmatic camel; 24th February 2006 at 02:41 AM.

24th February 2006, 03:01 AM	#7
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,602	Originally Posted by asthmatic camel I'd kind of guessed that using someone else's connection might be against the law but wasn't sure, so thanks for that. As it happens, I'm not interested in getting a free ride or downloading illegal stuff, but it just struck me that maybe warnings should be prominent on the packaging of these things. It does say in the manual that you should set encryption. Quote: You wouldn't want Genghis Pwn using your unsecured wireless connection, would you? Quote: ETA, I didn't notice for a while that my PC was automatically using these connections whenever my own was down for some reason. Now, I wasn't "knowingly" doing this, but shouldn't Micro$oft be doing something about this, as it would be difficult to prove in court whether I knew or not, wouldn't it? Well, I hardly think that you could be punished as long as you didn't use the connection for something illegal. Problem is if Genghis Pwn was also on the line . But all, in all, I think they would have to prove that you did something illegal, and that you intentionally used the connection. Of course, unintentionally using it is still not legal, but the consequences have to be very limited. Like taking the wrong coat in a wardrobe. Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

24th February 2006, 03:10 AM	#8
Tirdun Muse Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Near DC, in an underground NWO bunker Posts: 637	I've set up several wireless networks for friends and family. The first time I was working on the router upstairs when the friend walked in and said "hey, thanks for setting that all up, I'm online". I was a bit taken aback, as the router was still sitting on the floor amidst the packing material, unplugged, and I was trying to run a USB cable through the rats nest of cables hooked up to his desktop. I mentioned that the company must be doing a hellofa job to build such a marvel. Some quick investigation revealed a neighbor a few houses down had a wireless setup with a very generic name, and my friend had assumed it was the correct one. The second setup was similar. In fact, the router I set up showed up second on the network list, as the guy in the next apartment had a stronger signal. I was pleasantly surprised when I set up my home network. One other network on the list, telling me "no free rides". In both other cases the friends mentioned to the neighbors that their networks were open doors.
	__________________ The rain has a such a lovely sound to those who're six feet underground The leaves will bury every year and no one knows I'm gone -Tom Waits May You Never Thirst, Slàinte!

24th February 2006, 12:16 PM	#9
moopet binary decision maker Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 705	Originally Posted by Tirdun In both other cases the friends mentioned to the neighbors that their networks were open doors. I hope they did this the fun way - browse their network to find a shared printer and print out a warning in 72pt impact... repeated...

24th February 2006, 12:26 PM	#10
Zbu Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 466	Ha! You know, I was going to get a wireless router just in case I ever needed it for a laptop or something. You know what? Not anymore! I'm just going to stick with wired for now on.

24th February 2006, 02:38 PM	#11
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	She who must be obeyed was recently horrified when I switched on her wifi enabled laptop in her living room and found an unsecured network in the house across the street. Two teenage boys. We discreetly withdrew. I then checked the encryption on my own wifi net, (40 miles away) and found the default router settings were not a great deal better. Yes. There should be more prominent warnings on the box or in the setup manuals.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

24th February 2006, 02:49 PM	#12
Dark Jaguar Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,666	I myself run an unsecure network, and I don't care. I highly doubt I need to worry about people within 50 meters of my router. If something is traced to me, I only need point out that I'm using an open connection and thus they at least need to expand their "net" to people within that radius. Why do I do that? It's nice to just pop open any wireless device and be able to instantly connect to the network without going through the same tired old 3000 character long password input procedure. When the risks outweigh my own sloth, THEN I'll worry about it. As it is, the wifi part of my router is "seperate" from the wired network so I don't need to worry about people snooping around my files or using my printer. Looking into my wifi router, I often see a neighber using it, possibly by accident, as that person's network is also unsecure.
	Last edited by Dark Jaguar; 24th February 2006 at 02:53 PM.

24th February 2006, 02:49 PM	#13
sesmo_k single space Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: 55:21:14N, 1:40:33W Posts: 196	My bf recently bought a PC with wifi installed. It picked up a network from the flat upstairs. The oldish lady who lived there was duly informed. Amazing thing is, she had been wondering why she kept hitting her bandwidth limit so quickly... and hadn't done anything about it. The bf being the kind geek that he is sorted it out for her, she'd been downloading 5gb a day (alledgedly), her limit was 20gb a month!

25th February 2006, 04:42 AM	#14
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	DJ- You are probably right at the moment, but as the use of wifi increases, the probability of someone abusing your network connection is likely to increase. After the initial router setup, it only takes entry of an 8 letter key to install a new machine on my network. I'm using WEP encryption ,which is not the most secure, but it's primarily the casual , often accidental eavesdropper I want to avoid - of which we have several examples in this thread alone. Also the sort of twit willing to drive around logging onto peoples' networks is, by definition, unlikely to be benign. If someone like that uses your connection even once, you could find you have problems out of all proportion to the cost of prevention. If ten minutes setting up can move him on, it's like taking time to put a chain on the door- a small investment given the potential for damage. You know your own situation best, but my advice is to set up some security.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

25th February 2006, 09:45 AM	#15
ohms Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 441	I guess I'm a bit more paranoid than the rest of you. I use WPA encryption and have access control turned on (limits which MAC addresses can connect to my router). Nobody is going to get a free ride off me thank you very much.
ohms Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 441	__________________ Long time lurker

25th February 2006, 10:39 AM	#16
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	I recently went wireless through British Telecom. The router they provided has an encryption key (WEP) on the bottom that has to be typed in to access the network. Is that secure enough or can someone bypass that if they know how?
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

25th February 2006, 11:14 AM	#17
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,075	I don't even have a cordless phone. I don't trust this newfangled technology, consarn it. Sending messages through the air? Demonic, no doubt!
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

25th February 2006, 11:31 AM	#18
Tirdun Muse Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Near DC, in an underground NWO bunker Posts: 637	I run WEP encryption and MAC allowances, and it isn't that difficult to set up. The pass keys are 10 characters long, or you can set up WPA access that uses a passkey you create. If you have rugrats with Nintendo DS's, then you'll be running the WEP protocol, since DS supports it.
	__________________ The rain has a such a lovely sound to those who're six feet underground The leaves will bury every year and no one knows I'm gone -Tom Waits May You Never Thirst, Slàinte!

25th February 2006, 11:35 AM	#19
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	Originally Posted by Tirdun I run WEP encryption and MAC allowances, and it isn't that difficult to set up. The pass keys are 10 characters long, or you can set up WPA access that uses a passkey you create. If you have rugrats with Nintendo DS's, then you'll be running the WEP protocol, since DS supports it. Actually, the DS is aimed at adult gamers. Rugrats indeed (mutter mutter) Why else would I have gone wireless? goes and cuddles her DS
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

25th February 2006, 01:05 PM	#20
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	tk- I think you're fine unless you have a reason to suspect someone is out to get you- like you happen to have the serial numbers of £50 million in used fivers on your hard drive. Best if you can set the MAC numbers that are permitted and stop the router broadcasting the network ID. That way it would take a serious hacker to get onto your system. It's more casual abusers of a totally open system we need to protect against, or the kids next door stealing our porn.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

25th February 2006, 01:11 PM	#21
scribble Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,696	Originally Posted by Tirdun I run WEP encryption and MAC allowances, and it isn't that difficult to set up. The pass keys are 10 characters long, or you can set up WPA access that uses a passkey you create. If you have rugrats with Nintendo DS's, then you'll be running the WEP protocol, since DS supports it. I think most of us don't have to worry beyond WEP, but it's important for you to realize, these days, WEP is only a "keep out" sign. And if someone in your neighborhood needs an access point, and everyone else is WAP, your WEP is going to be his first choice. You can crack an average WEP network in minutes. It's fun and educational; I suggest to everyone that you try it. Here's some places to start: http://www.tomsnetworking.com/Sections-article118.php Personally, I use a Linksys WRT54G, on which I have installed OpenWrt ( http://openwrt.org ) and for the technically inclined, it's the single coolest piece of hardware you can buy for under $100, bar none. If you have experience with iptables in linux, you must own one.
scribble Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,696	__________________ "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true." - Homer Simpson "I was thinking about painting my house, but I was worried about how well the latex paint we bought would bond to the existing siding. So I got on the Interweb and searched for latex bondage."

25th February 2006, 01:13 PM	#22
scribble Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,696	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam Best if you can set the MAC numbers that are permitted and stop the router broadcasting the network ID. That way it would take a serious hacker to get onto your system. It's more casual abusers of a totally open system we need to protect against, or the kids next door stealing our porn. NetStumbler or Kismet means the kids next door can easily see your hidden ESSID, crack your WEP key, and access your WiFi. No experience necessary. Setting a MAC address is trivial. It's next to impossible to trust a mac address on WiFi - at least ona wired LAN you can hope the spoofer will be on another port on a switch or similar so you can detect the fakery. With WiFi validating on a mac is truly pointless.
scribble Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,696	__________________ "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true." - Homer Simpson "I was thinking about painting my house, but I was worried about how well the latex paint we bought would bond to the existing siding. So I got on the Interweb and searched for latex bondage." Last edited by scribble; 25th February 2006 at 01:16 PM.

25th February 2006, 01:21 PM	#23
Trifikas Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Philly 'burbs Posts: 301	It can get worse, too. I was working on my Sister's network, and were picking up several wireless clouds with the same name as the router manufacturer. I renamed hers to be able to find it, but couldn't figure out why one computer connected and another of hers didn't. So after a few tries, unplugged the power from her router...and still picked up the renamed wireless network... You do have to be careful though. If they're that lax about security you may not WANT to put your computer onto their network. Trif

25th February 2006, 01:22 PM	#24
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam tk- I think you're fine unless you have a reason to suspect someone is out to get you- like you happen to have the serial numbers of £50 million in used fivers on your hard drive. How did you know? I should be OK then. I was hoping to abuse the range by allowing my sister in the apartment downstairs to use my connection, but it's a bit to far away, sadly.
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

25th February 2006, 02:04 PM	#25
blutoski Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 5,980	I sold internet connections for a telco for several years, and we had a home networking package that we preferred to set up (WEP) with our own field technicians to eliminate wardriving. The biggest risk I'm aware of is that when a user links into a stranger's wireless internet connection, his computers are exposed, and his traffic is going through somebody else's router. If you have file sharing on, they can snoop your files. Even if file sharing is off, if you don't transmit webpages or email via ssh, they can packet-sniff and read your activity. We have had cases where the routers were intentionally left open as a trap for criminals who sift packet logs for sensitive information. This is absolutely becoming a bigger problem. Just in my own local range, I have sixteen home networks visible, ten of which are open.

27th February 2006, 10:48 AM	#26
Chris Haynes Perfectly Poisonous Person Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West Posts: 4,205	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam .... Best if you can set the MAC numbers that are permitted and stop the router broadcasting the network ID. That way it would take a serious hacker to get onto your system. It's more casual abusers of a totally open system we need to protect against, or the kids next door stealing our porn. We've just enabled the MAC number allowed system this weekend (along with the other protections). One child was spending too much time (like until 3 and 4 in the morning) playing World of Warcraft. After being told twice to turn it off and go to bed, his laptop was not allowed on the network for all of Sunday. So it also works for the kids who live with us.
	__________________ I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

28th February 2006, 02:12 PM	#27
kevin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,666	Using someone else's router isn't strictly illegal in the US. If you're ISP charges by the byte and extra for overages than it probably is. In the US most customers pay a flat per month rate for a particular speed but unlimited bytes. It is frequently against an ISP's terms of service to share your wireless router with others. My ISP on the other hand will help you bill neighbors for usage, so you can get a T1 and connect everyone wirelessly and they'll help you split the bill. If you don't want split the bill but just be nice and share your connection, my ISP is all for that too -- perfectly ok in their terms of service. This is what I do. I have 2 wireless routers, one locked down for me, one open to the world. I let my neighbors know they can use it by setting the SSID to freewireless
kevin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,666	__________________ Long story short, if you wanna get famous, it helps if you're taking a dump. -- RealityBites

28th February 2006, 08:05 PM	#28
Dark Jaguar Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,666	It's just that I don't see my next door neighbors as malicious hackers. Further, anything beyond WEP, which is apparently about as secure as chewing gum, is just going to get in the way. I use my router to make things easier, so I don't need to string wires all over the house (which would be the most secure method of all). If I'm not able to use a lot of things just because they don't support WEP, then forget about it. I have a firewall blocking access from the wifi router to my wired router anyway, that should be sufficient.

1st March 2006, 12:51 AM	#29
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	They (your neighbours) probably are not. I have read a couple of magazine items about people driving around with a laptop , deliberately seeking unsecured networks and logging on , then using the networked pcs as forwarding routes for spam. All anecdotal. How common this is was clearly unknown. I would think in most domestic neighbourhoods a man sitting in a car with a laptop would be noticed. Maybe not in a van though. Still, I think from the info in this thread the main risk is the simple embarrassment of neighbours accidentally finding each others' networks and being able to access personal data. I think WEP and MAC restriction should be adequate to prevent that sort of problem. Serious hackers are another issue . My main PC is linked to the router by ethernet cable anyway, having no wifi card. The data files are not shared to the network. I imagine that will be a pretty common setup.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

1st March 2006, 08:30 AM	#30
JOKER Thinker Join Date: May 2004 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 162	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam They (your neighbours) probably are not. I have read a couple of magazine items about people driving around with a laptop , deliberately seeking unsecured networks and logging on I know DEFCON has war driving contests that cover all of the Las Vegas Area. Although it is from 2003, this link shows plenty of open AP's in Vegas and that's not even within neighborhoods, just using major arterial streets: http://www.worldwidewardrive.org/dc1.../wardrive.html Originally Posted by Soapy Sam How common this is was clearly unknown. I would think in most domestic neighbourhoods a man sitting in a car with a laptop would be noticed. Maybe not in a van though. Very true, but with a powerful antenna, you can pickup plenty. Not saying a powerful antenna would pickup a weak AP signal, but I can pickup 6 AP's from my laptop, 3 unsecured. I am using WPA2 and labeled my AP the same as the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police. Some neighbors told me they found my AP and stayed away from it, but labeling it as such makes it a curious target to the local hackers. Now if they could only hack WPA2. I'm hoping not. Just FYI, a team in 2005 went 125 miles with a 802.11B connection using a $30 PCMCIA card.....and plenty of other stuff too: http://www.unwiredadventures.com/unw..._wifi_sho.html
	__________________ Always on the Battlefield

1st March 2006, 10:38 AM	#31
Tirdun Muse Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Near DC, in an underground NWO bunker Posts: 637	Originally Posted by tkingdoll Actually, the DS is aimed at adult gamers. Rugrats indeed (mutter mutter) Why else would I have gone wireless? goes and cuddles her DS Ah, now. No offense intended. MY personal set of rugrats and their friends have DSes, so my network allows (within certain timeframes) those DSes to connect to the world. I was running a different encryption prior to their informing me of its WiFi to the world capabilities.
	__________________ The rain has a such a lovely sound to those who're six feet underground The leaves will bury every year and no one knows I'm gone -Tom Waits May You Never Thirst, Slàinte!

1st March 2006, 02:23 PM	#32
Dark Jaguar Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,666	Just so you know, actually I don't bother with a chain on my door either. It's a pretty safe neighborhood, and someone parking in the street is not just frowned upon, tow trucks are called (our two lane street is still usable as a two lane street, unlike some neighborhoods). I will say this. Someone with a wifi connection simply won't see any of my shared files. They will have to connect directly with a wire to be able to see any of the shares. It's a weakness really, as it prevents wireless printing, but it's not a big deal to me because while I want free net access for all who enter the door with no fuss, I don't want to let them print anything or access my wired computers. To point, my security standards may be unbelievably low, but they do exist. Hence, I keep a firewall open, and though that has had some annoying problems, once I finally discovered the wonders of UPNP (the features of which I had always thought to myself "someone should do that", but never bothered looking into to see if someone DID do that until recently) those problems are solved. Further, while I have an open gate policy, I am VERY strict about what I install on my computer. I do not worry about computer viruses... virii, viriati... whatever the plural of that is, because I have a good antivirus program and always download OS security updates, but also due to my standards. I never download something I see no real use for, for example a 6 gig program to sort my image files based on personal tastes, or a weathertracking program. I simply don't have any applications running in the background unless I am currently USING said application, save for the antivirus program.