Ave Maria Florida

CrossHair · 27th February 2006, 06:59 AM

I just saw an article that Domino's Piza magnate Tom Monaghan is creating (created?) a town/university in Florida called 'Ave Maria' in which the inhabitants must adhere to a strick Catholic life-style. How is this to be enforced I wonder? Anyone for the Florida Inquisition?
Seems as if another Billionaire is trying to buy their way to heaven.

shecky · 27th February 2006, 07:17 AM

I wonder if priests will be allowed in?

Manny · 27th February 2006, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by CrossHair

How is this to be enforced I wonder?

Well, you can't enforce private behavior inside homes of course. But the idea is that Monaghan (or a trusteeship) will own all the commercial real estate in the town and restrict what may be sold through crafting leases. Not just no dirty section at the video store, but no contraceptives at the pharmacy. At least that's how Monaghan apparently sees it, based on speeches he's made. His development partner seems to think more along the lines of 'well, we'll just market it as a conservative Catholic community and it wll become one by self-selection.' Meanwhile, Ave Maria Law School, which seems to be something of a success early in its life, is hopping mad about the prospect of being moved from Ann Arbor, MI down to the Naples area. Stay tuned for many more chapters in this soap opera.

Jocko · 27th February 2006, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by CrossHair

I just saw an article that Domino's Piza magnate Tom Monaghan is creating (created?) a town/university in Florida called 'Ave Maria' in which the inhabitants must adhere to a strick Catholic life-style. How is this to be enforced I wonder? Anyone for the Florida Inquisition?
Seems as if another Billionaire is trying to buy their way to heaven.

Considering city-sized chunks of Florida already require you to be over 55 years of age to live there, this kind of thing is a non-issue. And that's the legally enforceable kind of discrimination - the unofficial kind is just as prevalent. At least this clown is going through the motions of making it official and buying his own land.

Tirdun · 27th February 2006, 07:37 AM

Can we make it mandatory that fundymentalists move there? Oh.. wow.. its just like heaven. So many fundies, so very far away.

Tony · 27th February 2006, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by CrossHair

I just saw an article that Domino's Piza magnate Tom Monaghan is creating (created?) a town/university in Florida called 'Ave Maria' in which the inhabitants must adhere to a strick Catholic life-style. How is this to be enforced I wonder? Anyone for the Florida Inquisition?
Seems as if another Billionaire is trying to buy their way to heaven.

This is a version neo-feudalism. He is trying to set himself up as a dictator of a pseudo city-state unaccountable to the American constitution. It is fundamentally un-American and I think it makes a good argument against the ownership of private property (and I support private property). I predict his catholic utopia won't remain so for 5 years, if not, we should bomb it.

Can you post the article you read? Is it the one in Slate?

Jocko · 27th February 2006, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by Tony

This is a version neo-feudalism. He is trying to set himself up as a dictator of a pseudo city-state unaccountable to the American constitution. It is fundamentally un-American and I think it makes a good argument against the ownership of private property (and I support private property). I predict his catholic utopia won't remain so for 5 years, if not, we should bomb it.

Can you post the article you read? Is it the one in Slate?

Tony, there are thousands of such communities there right now. I described them above. I used to live in one, in fact. Hated them myself.

I recommend you fuel up the Tony-1 Tactical Bomber, 'cuz you're gonna be busy for a while... even without this guy's Catholicville.

ceo_esq · 27th February 2006, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Tirdun

Can we make it mandatory that fundymentalists move there? Oh.. wow.. its just like heaven. So many fundies, so very far away.

These people are conservative Catholics, not fundamentalists.

Manny · 27th February 2006, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Jocko

Considering city-sized chunks of Florida already require you to be over 55 years of age to live there, this kind of thing is a non-issue. And that's the legally enforceable kind of discrimination - the unofficial kind is just as prevalent. At least this clown is going through the motions of making it official and buying his own land.

For the record, the active-adult communities by and large also buy their own land before building the housing. They were created by law basically so that geezers wouldn't have to live with a bunch of damn kids crossing their lawns. Used to be that it was required that a community seeking exemption from the fair housing laws had to have all kinds of things like wide sidewalks and community centers and a minimum plaid pants penetration (not 100% sure on that last one). Now they pretty much just have to say "we're an active-adult community" and sell 80% of their units to people who have at least one person older than 55 in the household.

Charlie Monoxide · 27th February 2006, 09:11 AM

This new development was in the news last week here in Orlando. The news story was that the businesses that setup in this new community are being highly encouraged, not to sell contraceptives of any sort.

I kinda like the idea of a community exclusively for Catholics. At least I know places where to avoid.

Charlie (kinda like Celebration Florida) Monoxide

Jocko · 27th February 2006, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by ceo_esq

These people are conservative Catholics, not fundamentalists.

You got that right. For the South, conservative Catholics are nowhere NEAR fundie. You gotta slip on over to the Pentacostals' church and handle a few serpents before you even approach the fringe of southern fundie.

TragicMonkey · 27th February 2006, 09:57 AM

The article I read mentioned that previous Supreme Court cases has ruled that proprietorship of a town does not convey the level of control this guy seems to want to wield. I'm not familiar with those cases...is anybody?

HarryKeogh · 27th February 2006, 10:07 AM

Will Ave Maria invade Clearwater if provoked?

Tony · 27th February 2006, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

The article I read mentioned that previous Supreme Court cases has ruled that proprietorship of a town does not convey the level of control this guy seems to want to wield. I'm not familiar with those cases...is anybody?

If it's not too much trouble or hard to find, could you post the article you read?

TragicMonkey · 27th February 2006, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Tony

If it's not too much trouble or hard to find, could you post the article you read?

Found it.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspap...058771,00.html

Quote:

Monaghan has argued that the owners of the town’s commercial properties will be free to impose conditions in leases — notably the restriction on the sale of contraceptives. But that has been challenged by Howard Simon, executive director of the Florida branch of the American Civil Liberties Union.

Simon said the US Supreme Court had already ruled “ownership [of a town] does not always mean absolute dominion”. “If he wants to build a town and encourage like-minded people to come and live there, that’s fine. We get into problems where he tries to exercise governmental authority.”

jj · 27th February 2006, 11:43 AM

Back to the feudal system, I guess.

sackett · 27th February 2006, 12:30 PM

From the very lips of the Blessed Non-Martyr of Ann Arbor:

“I decided to take a ‘millionaire’s vow of poverty.’ I am focusing on God, family and Domino’s Pizza.”

Source: http://www.usdreams.com/Monaghan7677.html

Orwell · 27th February 2006, 12:39 PM

I think I've already made this joke but here it goes anyway: wanna make a quick buck? Install a vid store with a XXX section, a pharmacy selling birth control and an abortion clinic outside county lines.

TragicMonkey · 27th February 2006, 01:18 PM

The thing I find most alarming of all is the quality of Domino's Pizza to start with. How on earth did such pizza manage to garner enough wealth for this person to purchase a single land lot, much less a whole town? He must have acquired his fortune in some other fashion. Perhaps Domino's Pizza is nothing but a front for money-laundering, or maybe if you order one with the correct code words they'll deliver crack and heroin to your door. I simply cannot believe people are willing to eat Domino's Pizza.

Cleon · 27th February 2006, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

The thing I find most alarming of all is the quality of Domino's Pizza to start with. How on earth did such pizza manage to garner enough wealth for this person to purchase a single land lot, much less a whole town? He must have acquired his fortune in some other fashion. Perhaps Domino's Pizza is nothing but a front for money-laundering, or maybe if you order one with the correct code words they'll deliver crack and heroin to your door. I simply cannot believe people are willing to eat Domino's Pizza.

No kidding. Domino's tastes like cardboard with tomato sauce.

sackett · 27th February 2006, 01:28 PM

Don’t be hard on Our Tommy. He did the right thing in the end.

“Since selling Domino's [Monaghan] has had more time to focus on the Legatus project. This is an association of Catholic Chief Executive Officers, which he was inspired to set up in 1987 after meeting with Pope John Paul II. Members of Legatus are invited to monthly meetings (along with their spouses) where they learn about their faith and about the insights of the Catholic Church on a range of social issues, including business ethics. Each meeting starts with prayer and opportunities for confession.”

Source: http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/20...000p13_21.html

luchog · 27th February 2006, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Cleon

No kidding. Domino's tastes like cardboard with tomato sauce.

McDonald's burgers, boxed macaroni and cheese, Hostess Twinkies, Kool-Aid, Velveeta, etc.

There's no end to the bland, nasty crap that Americans will eat. The more bland and nasty, the better.

Bjorn · 27th February 2006, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Jocko

Tony, there are thousands of such communities there right now.

You mean for 55 and older, don't you? AFAIK the Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination "based on race, color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status or handicap".

CrossHair · 27th February 2006, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Cleon

No kidding. Domino's tastes like cardboard with tomato sauce.

The major, huge, pizza chain here in Ottawa is a place called "pizza.pizza". You can't tun a corner anywhere around here without running into a "pizza.pizza" joint. Amazingly it is the most bland pizza I have ever tasted, and I have lived in many places across North America. However, one secret to Pizza sucess is Marketing and they are the best at that. They sponsor many of the local professional and amatuer teams and give away a free slice of pizza if the Ottawa Senators score 6 or more goals to those attending a home game (used to be 5 goals but they were giving away too much pizza). Also, bland taste is an advantage because most people will tire of pizza that has a particular taste.

Elind · 27th February 2006, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by CrossHair

I just saw an article that Domino's Piza magnate Tom Monaghan is creating (created?) a town/university in Florida called 'Ave Maria' in which the inhabitants must adhere to a strick Catholic life-style. How is this to be enforced I wonder? Anyone for the Florida Inquisition?
Seems as if another Billionaire is trying to buy their way to heaven.

Yeah, so much for US multicultiralism. All the Papists just want to have their own millionaire ghettos so they can get away from everyone else. Pretty damn pitiful, as are all those who want to live there.

ceo_esq · 27th February 2006, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Elind

All the Papists just want to have their own millionaire ghettos so they can get away from everyone else.

You knew that the emboldened term is an offensive slur, right? I strongly recommend not using it here.

Tony · 27th February 2006, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by ceo_esq

You knew that the emboldened term is an offensive slur, right?

Really? How do you pronounce it? I've never heard of that term.

Quote:

I strongly recommend not using it here.

I don't see why not, we use "fundy" and "woo-woo" on a daily basis.

TragicMonkey · 27th February 2006, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by ceo_esq

You knew that the emboldened term is an offensive slur, right? I strongly recommend not using it here.

I prefer the more old-fashioned "Popish". Has more of an air to it.

Ladewig · 27th February 2006, 07:18 PM

Will the town also have its own internet service provider?

Originally Posted by luchog

McDonald's burgers, boxed macaroni and cheese, Hostess Twinkies, Kool-Aid, Velveeta, etc.

I'm told most American beer falls into that category

ceo_esq · 27th February 2006, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Tony

Really? How do you pronounce it? I've never heard of that term.

Rhymes with "rapist", so far as I know. Yes, ha-ha. Here's the Wikipedia entry on it.

Originally Posted by Tony

I don't see why not, we use "fundy" and "woo-woo" on a daily basis.

The second isn't a religious slur. The first arguably is, but I couldn't say that it is generally considered offensive in common speech. Still, probably best to avoid it, now that you mention it. At any rate, it's not too germane to the specific point. Anything that shows up here, notwithstanding the disclaimer about posters' individual opinions, has the potential to reflect on JREF, and the last thing we want is for posts to be populated with widely perceived slurs.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I prefer the more old-fashioned "Popish". Has more of an air to it.

So far as I know, that term has been in use for about the same period of time. It's also mentioned in the same Wikipedia entry, and is also probably something to avoid here.

Tony · 27th February 2006, 07:32 PM

An article on the subject.

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/...s/04761831.asp

Tony · 27th February 2006, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by ceo_esq

The second isn't a religious slur.

I don't see why not. It is no different than Popish and Papist.

Quote:

The first arguably is, but I couldn't say that it is generally considered offensive in common speech.

Popish and Papist aren't offensive in common speech. I bet if I habitually and casually used the word Papist on a daily basis, 95% of people wouldn't know what the hell I was talking about.

Quote:

Still, probably best to avoid it, now that you mention it. At any rate, it's not too germane to the specific point. Anything that shows up here, notwithstanding the disclaimer about posters' individual opinions, has the potential to reflect on JREF, and the last thing we want is for posts to be populated with widely perceived slurs.

I don't think it would come as a shocker to most people that the JREF is non-catholic or anti-catholic.

Giz · 27th February 2006, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by ceo_esq

You knew that the emboldened term is an offensive slur, right? I strongly recommend not using it here.

Why is it an offensive term? It seems quite accurate (supporter of the papacy = papist).

Sounds like people are being a little hypersensitive - it's not as if anyone's singed your beard, right?

TragicMonkey · 27th February 2006, 07:59 PM

The term was used disparagingly back in its heyday. It's an antiquated usage today. Only the well-read would recognize it as having been offensive once, and only some of them would find it offensive now. Whether a term is offensive is going to depend on how it's being used. I'd say there's no point in attempting to revive either "Popish" or "Papist" as a non-derogatory word because a) there's already a perfectly suitable word ("Catholic") for that, and b) the words' histories are against them.

Giz · 27th February 2006, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

The term was used disparagingly back in its heyday. It's an antiquated usage today. Only the well-read would recognize it as having been offensive once, and only some of them would find it offensive now.

Back in its heyday being when Francis Drake and Errol Flynn were liberating bullion galleons from the Spaniards (can I say "Spaniard" - I don't want to cause offense... honest).

It's a historic term, its emotive power has died out long ago, neither does it carry the oppresive history of the n-word (nor are catholics socio-economically disadvantaged in the present day and in need of extra word police coming to their rescue).

I just can't believe it raised anyones hackles enough to potest about it. But then they've been prickly ever since the Treaty of Tordesillas went sour.

Orwell · 27th February 2006, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by ceo_esq

You knew that the emboldened term is an offensive slur, right? I strongly recommend not using it here.

This is silly. I was raised catholic , and I can't fathom why the word "papist" is offensive. It's like calling someone "wasp" or something like that.

Your "papist" sensitivities are a bit quaint, ceo.

ceo_esq · 27th February 2006, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Tony

I don't see why not. It is no different than Popish and Papist.

You don't see why "woo-woo" isn't exactly a religious slur?

Originally Posted by Tony

Popish and Papist aren't offensive in common speech.

They aren't commonly employed terms (partly because they are considered offensive). But that doesn't matter. I think Wikipedia got it right when it said "considered offensive in contemporary speech".

Originally Posted by Tony

I bet if I habitually and casually used the word Papist on a daily basis, 95% of people wouldn't know what the hell I was talking about.

That might happen even if you didn't use the word. (Just kidding!) But does that dispose of the issue?

Originally Posted by Tony

I don't think it would come as a shocker to most people that the JREF is non-catholic or anti-catholic.

I think the JREF would have some objections to the second part. But let's assume that what you say as true (at least as applied to the forum members, rather than the JREF itself) - so we're generally either not members of the group targeted by the slur, or else religious bigots, or both. That hardly helps matters.

Originally Posted by Giz

Why is it an offensive term? It seems quite accurate (supporter of the papacy = papist).

Certain other slurs have some directly or indirectly accurate descriptive basis, but do we generally try to justify their continued use on that ground?

Originally Posted by Giz

Sounds like people are being a little hypersensitive - it's not as if anyone's singed your beard, right?

I suppose you're right. Feel free to use any slurs as long as they don't technically refer to me.

Originally Posted by Orwell

Your "papist" sensitivities are a bit quaint, ceo.

The fact that this is indisputably a term regarded by many (the number includes persons not belonging to the targeted group and excludes some within it) as offensive has zero to do with my sensibilities. Did I say that I found it personally offensive? I simply recommended against its use here, and this both for eminently practical reasons and for sheer courtesy.

ceo_esq · 27th February 2006, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

The article I read mentioned that previous Supreme Court cases has ruled that proprietorship of a town does not convey the level of control this guy seems to want to wield. I'm not familiar with those cases...is anybody?

I forgot to respond to this earlier. One famous case that leaps to mind is Marsh v. Alabama, involving a steel company town. There's a second line of cases I think are relevant which involved shopping malls, including Lloyd Corp. v. Tanner.

shecky · 27th February 2006, 10:13 PM

I don't think I've ever actually heard the word "papist" spoken at all, except in movies. Let alone in a derogatory manner. Then again, I haven't spent much time in the UK.

If anything, I think Monaghan's ideas may bring "papist", as a derogatory word, back into vogue in the US.

Beady · 27th February 2006, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by manny

Meanwhile, Ave Maria Law School, which seems to be something of a success early in its life, is hopping mad about the prospect of being moved from Ann Arbor, MI down to the Naples area. Stay tuned for many more chapters in this soap opera.

I was just down there a week ago, and I can see why. I don't know what the average income is, down there, but property values are literally through the roof. Took a tour, and the average home I saw was probably in the $1 million range. Ann Arbor salaries probably are going to be inadequate for normal living.

27th February 2006, 06:59 AM	#1
CrossHair Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 156	Ave Maria Florida I just saw an article that Domino's Piza magnate Tom Monaghan is creating (created?) a town/university in Florida called 'Ave Maria' in which the inhabitants must adhere to a strick Catholic life-style. How is this to be enforced I wonder? Anyone for the Florida Inquisition? Seems as if another Billionaire is trying to buy their way to heaven.
CrossHair Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 156	__________________ World Record, average speed sail powered craft over 500 meters, 2009 Hydroptere Alain Thebault FRA Hyeres, FRA 51.36 kts You can never make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. Time is the best teacher; Unfortunately it kills all its students.

27th February 2006, 07:29 AM	#3
Manny Illuminator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 3,295	Originally Posted by CrossHair How is this to be enforced I wonder? Well, you can't enforce private behavior inside homes of course. But the idea is that Monaghan (or a trusteeship) will own all the commercial real estate in the town and restrict what may be sold through crafting leases. Not just no dirty section at the video store, but no contraceptives at the pharmacy. At least that's how Monaghan apparently sees it, based on speeches he's made. His development partner seems to think more along the lines of 'well, we'll just market it as a conservative Catholic community and it wll become one by self-selection.' Meanwhile, Ave Maria Law School, which seems to be something of a success early in its life, is hopping mad about the prospect of being moved from Ann Arbor, MI down to the Naples area. Stay tuned for many more chapters in this soap opera.
Manny Illuminator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 3,295

27th February 2006, 07:33 AM	#4
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Originally Posted by CrossHair I just saw an article that Domino's Piza magnate Tom Monaghan is creating (created?) a town/university in Florida called 'Ave Maria' in which the inhabitants must adhere to a strick Catholic life-style. How is this to be enforced I wonder? Anyone for the Florida Inquisition? Seems as if another Billionaire is trying to buy their way to heaven. Considering city-sized chunks of Florida already require you to be over 55 years of age to live there, this kind of thing is a non-issue. And that's the legally enforceable kind of discrimination - the unofficial kind is just as prevalent. At least this clown is going through the motions of making it official and buying his own land.
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

27th February 2006, 07:37 AM	#5
Tirdun Muse Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Near DC, in an underground NWO bunker Posts: 637	Can we make it mandatory that fundymentalists move there? Oh.. wow.. its just like heaven. So many fundies, so very far away.
	__________________ The rain has a such a lovely sound to those who're six feet underground The leaves will bury every year and no one knows I'm gone -Tom Waits May You Never Thirst, Slàinte!

27th February 2006, 07:40 AM	#6
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,752	Originally Posted by CrossHair I just saw an article that Domino's Piza magnate Tom Monaghan is creating (created?) a town/university in Florida called 'Ave Maria' in which the inhabitants must adhere to a strick Catholic life-style. How is this to be enforced I wonder? Anyone for the Florida Inquisition? Seems as if another Billionaire is trying to buy their way to heaven. This is a version neo-feudalism. He is trying to set himself up as a dictator of a pseudo city-state unaccountable to the American constitution. It is fundamentally un-American and I think it makes a good argument against the ownership of private property (and I support private property). I predict his catholic utopia won't remain so for 5 years, if not, we should bomb it. Can you post the article you read? Is it the one in Slate?
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

27th February 2006, 07:17 AM	#2
shecky Master Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: Home of the Homeless Posts: 2,190	I wonder if priests will be allowed in?

27th February 2006, 07:43 AM	#7
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Originally Posted by Tony This is a version neo-feudalism. He is trying to set himself up as a dictator of a pseudo city-state unaccountable to the American constitution. It is fundamentally un-American and I think it makes a good argument against the ownership of private property (and I support private property). I predict his catholic utopia won't remain so for 5 years, if not, we should bomb it. Can you post the article you read? Is it the one in Slate? Tony, there are thousands of such communities there right now. I described them above. I used to live in one, in fact. Hated them myself. I recommend you fuel up the Tony-1 Tactical Bomber, 'cuz you're gonna be busy for a while... even without this guy's Catholicville.
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

27th February 2006, 07:53 AM	#8
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Originally Posted by Tirdun Can we make it mandatory that fundymentalists move there? Oh.. wow.. its just like heaven. So many fundies, so very far away. These people are conservative Catholics, not fundamentalists.
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940

27th February 2006, 07:59 AM	#9
Manny Illuminator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 3,295	Originally Posted by Jocko Considering city-sized chunks of Florida already require you to be over 55 years of age to live there, this kind of thing is a non-issue. And that's the legally enforceable kind of discrimination - the unofficial kind is just as prevalent. At least this clown is going through the motions of making it official and buying his own land. For the record, the active-adult communities by and large also buy their own land before building the housing. They were created by law basically so that geezers wouldn't have to live with a bunch of damn kids crossing their lawns. Used to be that it was required that a community seeking exemption from the fair housing laws had to have all kinds of things like wide sidewalks and community centers and a minimum plaid pants penetration (not 100% sure on that last one). Now they pretty much just have to say "we're an active-adult community" and sell 80% of their units to people who have at least one person older than 55 in the household.
Manny Illuminator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 3,295

27th February 2006, 09:11 AM	#10
Charlie Monoxide Wag Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 2,761	This new development was in the news last week here in Orlando. The news story was that the businesses that setup in this new community are being highly encouraged, not to sell contraceptives of any sort. I kinda like the idea of a community exclusively for Catholics. At least I know places where to avoid. Charlie (kinda like Celebration Florida) Monoxide
	__________________ Major General Wag of JREF

27th February 2006, 09:57 AM	#11
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Originally Posted by ceo_esq These people are conservative Catholics, not fundamentalists. You got that right. For the South, conservative Catholics are nowhere NEAR fundie. You gotta slip on over to the Pentacostals' church and handle a few serpents before you even approach the fringe of southern fundie.
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

27th February 2006, 09:57 AM	#12
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,037	The article I read mentioned that previous Supreme Court cases has ruled that proprietorship of a town does not convey the level of control this guy seems to want to wield. I'm not familiar with those cases...is anybody?
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

27th February 2006, 10:07 AM	#13
HarryKeogh Catholic School Survivor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 11,342	Will Ave Maria invade Clearwater if provoked?

27th February 2006, 11:17 AM	#14
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,752	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey The article I read mentioned that previous Supreme Court cases has ruled that proprietorship of a town does not convey the level of control this guy seems to want to wield. I'm not familiar with those cases...is anybody? If it's not too much trouble or hard to find, could you post the article you read?
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

27th February 2006, 11:41 AM	#15
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,037	Originally Posted by Tony If it's not too much trouble or hard to find, could you post the article you read? Found it. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspap...058771,00.html Quote: Monaghan has argued that the owners of the town’s commercial properties will be free to impose conditions in leases — notably the restriction on the sale of contraceptives. But that has been challenged by Howard Simon, executive director of the Florida branch of the American Civil Liberties Union. Simon said the US Supreme Court had already ruled “ownership [of a town] does not always mean absolute dominion”. “If he wants to build a town and encourage like-minded people to come and live there, that’s fine. We get into problems where he tries to exercise governmental authority.”
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

27th February 2006, 11:43 AM	#16
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,462	Back to the feudal system, I guess.
	__________________ The Power to Quit

27th February 2006, 12:30 PM	#17
sackett Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 3,609	From the very lips of the Blessed Non-Martyr of Ann Arbor: “I decided to take a ‘millionaire’s vow of poverty.’ I am focusing on God, family and Domino’s Pizza.” Source: http://www.usdreams.com/Monaghan7677.html
	__________________ Dyslexic and prond!

27th February 2006, 12:39 PM	#18
Orwell Nattering Nabob of Negativism Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,364	I think I've already made this joke but here it goes anyway: wanna make a quick buck? Install a vid store with a XXX section, a pharmacy selling birth control and an abortion clinic outside county lines.
	__________________ Charles de Gaulle fut arrêté par des journalistes devant un graffiti disant "mort aux cons". Il commenta: "Vaste programme..."

27th February 2006, 01:18 PM	#19
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,037	The thing I find most alarming of all is the quality of Domino's Pizza to start with. How on earth did such pizza manage to garner enough wealth for this person to purchase a single land lot, much less a whole town? He must have acquired his fortune in some other fashion. Perhaps Domino's Pizza is nothing but a front for money-laundering, or maybe if you order one with the correct code words they'll deliver crack and heroin to your door. I simply cannot believe people are willing to eat Domino's Pizza.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

27th February 2006, 01:24 PM	#20
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,503	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey The thing I find most alarming of all is the quality of Domino's Pizza to start with. How on earth did such pizza manage to garner enough wealth for this person to purchase a single land lot, much less a whole town? He must have acquired his fortune in some other fashion. Perhaps Domino's Pizza is nothing but a front for money-laundering, or maybe if you order one with the correct code words they'll deliver crack and heroin to your door. I simply cannot believe people are willing to eat Domino's Pizza. No kidding. Domino's tastes like cardboard with tomato sauce.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

27th February 2006, 01:28 PM	#21
sackett Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 3,609	Don’t be hard on Our Tommy. He did the right thing in the end. “Since selling Domino's [Monaghan] has had more time to focus on the Legatus project. This is an association of Catholic Chief Executive Officers, which he was inspired to set up in 1987 after meeting with Pope John Paul II. Members of Legatus are invited to monthly meetings (along with their spouses) where they learn about their faith and about the insights of the Catholic Church on a range of social issues, including business ethics. Each meeting starts with prayer and opportunities for confession.” Source: http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/20...000p13_21.html
	__________________ Dyslexic and prond!

27th February 2006, 03:22 PM	#22
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 7,957	Originally Posted by Cleon No kidding. Domino's tastes like cardboard with tomato sauce. McDonald's burgers, boxed macaroni and cheese, Hostess Twinkies, Kool-Aid, Velveeta, etc. There's no end to the bland, nasty crap that Americans will eat. The more bland and nasty, the better.
	__________________ "All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams "The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf "Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

27th February 2006, 03:40 PM	#23
Bjorn Off Topic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,974	Originally Posted by Jocko Tony, there are thousands of such communities there right now. You mean for 55 and older, don't you? AFAIK the Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination "based on race, color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status or handicap".
	__________________ Little did I know, that all those days that came and went, were my life ....

27th February 2006, 04:21 PM	#24
CrossHair Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 156	Originally Posted by Cleon No kidding. Domino's tastes like cardboard with tomato sauce. The major, huge, pizza chain here in Ottawa is a place called "pizza.pizza". You can't tun a corner anywhere around here without running into a "pizza.pizza" joint. Amazingly it is the most bland pizza I have ever tasted, and I have lived in many places across North America. However, one secret to Pizza sucess is Marketing and they are the best at that. They sponsor many of the local professional and amatuer teams and give away a free slice of pizza if the Ottawa Senators score 6 or more goals to those attending a home game (used to be 5 goals but they were giving away too much pizza). Also, bland taste is an advantage because most people will tire of pizza that has a particular taste.
CrossHair Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 156	__________________ World Record, average speed sail powered craft over 500 meters, 2009 Hydroptere Alain Thebault FRA Hyeres, FRA 51.36 kts You can never make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. Time is the best teacher; Unfortunately it kills all its students.

27th February 2006, 05:59 PM	#25
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,621	Originally Posted by CrossHair I just saw an article that Domino's Piza magnate Tom Monaghan is creating (created?) a town/university in Florida called 'Ave Maria' in which the inhabitants must adhere to a strick Catholic life-style. How is this to be enforced I wonder? Anyone for the Florida Inquisition? Seems as if another Billionaire is trying to buy their way to heaven. Yeah, so much for US multicultiralism. All the Papists just want to have their own millionaire ghettos so they can get away from everyone else. Pretty damn pitiful, as are all those who want to live there.

27th February 2006, 07:06 PM	#26
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Originally Posted by Elind All the Papists just want to have their own millionaire ghettos so they can get away from everyone else. You knew that the emboldened term is an offensive slur, right? I strongly recommend not using it here.
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940

27th February 2006, 07:09 PM	#27
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,752	Originally Posted by ceo_esq You knew that the emboldened term is an offensive slur, right? Really? How do you pronounce it? I've never heard of that term. Quote: I strongly recommend not using it here. I don't see why not, we use "fundy" and "woo-woo" on a daily basis.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

27th February 2006, 07:18 PM	#29
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,783	Will the town also have its own internet service provider? Originally Posted by luchog McDonald's burgers, boxed macaroni and cheese, Hostess Twinkies, Kool-Aid, Velveeta, etc. I'm told most American beer falls into that category

27th February 2006, 07:27 PM	#30
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Originally Posted by Tony Really? How do you pronounce it? I've never heard of that term. Rhymes with "rapist", so far as I know. Yes, ha-ha. Here's the Wikipedia entry on it. Originally Posted by Tony I don't see why not, we use "fundy" and "woo-woo" on a daily basis. The second isn't a religious slur. The first arguably is, but I couldn't say that it is generally considered offensive in common speech. Still, probably best to avoid it, now that you mention it. At any rate, it's not too germane to the specific point. Anything that shows up here, notwithstanding the disclaimer about posters' individual opinions, has the potential to reflect on JREF, and the last thing we want is for posts to be populated with widely perceived slurs. Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I prefer the more old-fashioned "Popish". Has more of an air to it. So far as I know, that term has been in use for about the same period of time. It's also mentioned in the same Wikipedia entry, and is also probably something to avoid here.
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Last edited by ceo_esq; 27th February 2006 at 07:32 PM.

27th February 2006, 07:32 PM	#31
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,752	An article on the subject. http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/...s/04761831.asp
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

27th February 2006, 07:37 PM	#32
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,752	Originally Posted by ceo_esq The second isn't a religious slur. I don't see why not. It is no different than Popish and Papist. Quote: The first arguably is, but I couldn't say that it is generally considered offensive in common speech. Popish and Papist aren't offensive in common speech. I bet if I habitually and casually used the word Papist on a daily basis, 95% of people wouldn't know what the hell I was talking about. Quote: Still, probably best to avoid it, now that you mention it. At any rate, it's not too germane to the specific point. Anything that shows up here, notwithstanding the disclaimer about posters' individual opinions, has the potential to reflect on JREF, and the last thing we want is for posts to be populated with widely perceived slurs. I don't think it would come as a shocker to most people that the JREF is non-catholic or anti-catholic.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain Last edited by Tony; 27th February 2006 at 08:06 PM.

27th February 2006, 07:52 PM	#33
Giz Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK/US Posts: 3,422	Originally Posted by ceo_esq You knew that the emboldened term is an offensive slur, right? I strongly recommend not using it here. Why is it an offensive term? It seems quite accurate (supporter of the papacy = papist). Sounds like people are being a little hypersensitive - it's not as if anyone's singed your beard, right?

27th February 2006, 07:59 PM	#34
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,037	The term was used disparagingly back in its heyday. It's an antiquated usage today. Only the well-read would recognize it as having been offensive once, and only some of them would find it offensive now. Whether a term is offensive is going to depend on how it's being used. I'd say there's no point in attempting to revive either "Popish" or "Papist" as a non-derogatory word because a) there's already a perfectly suitable word ("Catholic") for that, and b) the words' histories are against them.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

27th February 2006, 08:23 PM	#35
Giz Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK/US Posts: 3,422	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey The term was used disparagingly back in its heyday. It's an antiquated usage today. Only the well-read would recognize it as having been offensive once, and only some of them would find it offensive now. Back in its heyday being when Francis Drake and Errol Flynn were liberating bullion galleons from the Spaniards (can I say "Spaniard" - I don't want to cause offense... honest). It's a historic term, its emotive power has died out long ago, neither does it carry the oppresive history of the n-word (nor are catholics socio-economically disadvantaged in the present day and in need of extra word police coming to their rescue). I just can't believe it raised anyones hackles enough to potest about it. But then they've been prickly ever since the Treaty of Tordesillas went sour.

27th February 2006, 08:35 PM	#36
Orwell Nattering Nabob of Negativism Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,364	Originally Posted by ceo_esq You knew that the emboldened term is an offensive slur, right? I strongly recommend not using it here. This is silly. I was raised catholic , and I can't fathom why the word "papist" is offensive. It's like calling someone "wasp" or something like that. Your "papist" sensitivities are a bit quaint, ceo.
	__________________ Charles de Gaulle fut arrêté par des journalistes devant un graffiti disant "mort aux cons". Il commenta: "Vaste programme..." Last edited by Orwell; 27th February 2006 at 08:37 PM.