Teacher suspended for sock-puppet "Faust" - Page 2

Achán hiNidráne · 22nd March 2006, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot.

...or, more likely, we just don't think that a public school is an appropriate place to advertise anyone's religion. If you want your spawn to warble X-Mas carols, put them in your church choir. Don't expect those who don't believe as you do to fund your taste in music or religion.

Oh, by the way, in my humble opinion after your comments on the Gay Marriage thread, I don't think you're in a position to accuse anyone of being "an intolerant bigot."

Pot, kettle, black.

Dr Adequate · 22nd March 2006, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Ed

A seemingly reasonable person had the bully pulpit. She ran away. Not smart.

That is unnecessarily unpleasant.

You agree that she is seemingly reasonable. Well, good.

You say she "had the bully pulpit" --- an Americanism I think I understand. But obviously she still does have the "bully pulpit" --- she's still being reported by the media. And she must have had the "bully pulpit" before she was elected mayor, or how would she be elected mayor?

And you say she "ran away". I have the impression --- stop me if I'm wrong --- that being mayor of a small town in America is a mark of respect rather than political power. I think also it varies from state to state. So do correct any error I make. But the impression I have is that the most effective gesture the mayor could make on behalf of the good guys was to resign her office.

If I remember rightly, you're one of the posters who is worried by the Douglas Adams Paradox --- that those who seek political power are least worthy of it. Maybe in the general case you're right. But in this particular case, the mayor laid down her politcal office as a protest --- so you call her a coward. Is there any action you can't be cynical about? I say here is one person in public life who has laid aside personal ambition to make a protest for what is right.

Sheesh, you might as well say that Rosa Parks was lazy.

I applaud the mayor. Resigning was a classy thing to do.

Dr Adequate · 22nd March 2006, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot.

Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot.

However, the teacher in question did not say that she was offended by singing Christmas carols, and you are flailing away at a straw woman.

Achán hiNidráne · 23rd March 2006, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

However, the teacher in question did not say that she was offended by singing Christmas carols, and you are flailing away at a straw woman.

Ah, but to the Religious Right, criticism equals bigotry. (Sort of like Issac Haye's alleged comments about South Park.) It appears that in Meadmaker's world Christianity is the only religion that counts. All those heathens and pagans had just better shut up and listen to the children sing songs that don't reflect their point of view (or pay for via their taxes) whether they like it or not.

Meadmaker · 23rd March 2006, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

...or, more likely, we just don't think that a public school is an appropriate place to advertise anyone's religion. If you want your spawn to warble X-Mas carols, put them in your church choir. Don't expect those who don't believe as you do to fund your taste in music or religion.

They're songs. Music. Tunes. I don't like banning music.

They're traditional. They are part of a holiday celebration. Why do you suppose they hold "holiday pageants" in December?

Also, there's no court ruling I'm aware of that would prohibit them. I would guess, legal minds can correct me if I'm wrong, that like holiday displays on public grounds, they are considered acceptable if they are part of an overall secular presentation.

A lot of people here would love to see them banned, but the courts aren't on your side, at least not yet. So, Ms. Waggoner took it upon herself to make sure she didn't offend the Jehovah's Witnesses (I wonder if there were any), and made an enemy of most of the town, including a few very squeaky wheels.

I don't think someone should be fired for her political or religious beliefs, so unless there is something else that hasn't made the media, it looks like she has a very strong case for a lawsuit against the district. That doesn't change the fact that it was pretty darned dumb to not allow Christmas carols at the "holiday pageant".

And if you whine to a lawyer because some kids are singing songs you don't like, you are an intolerant bigot.

(I haven't seen anyinformation, but I wonder what they did do at the holiday pageant. "Winter Wonderland", but no "Away in a Manger"? I've never seen a reference.)

Meadmaker · 23rd March 2006, 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

However, the teacher in question did not say that she was offended by singing Christmas carols, and you are flailing away at a straw woman.

No, the teacher didn't. However, I was pretty sure that some people on this board would express their offense about the singing of Christmas carols at the holiday pageant, and it was to them that I was referring. So, just to make things clear, Ms. Waggoner was just misguided or had an inaccurate view of the law. However, if you who are reading this want to ban Christmas carols that makes you intolerant, almost by definition.

ImaginalDisc · 23rd March 2006, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

No, the teacher didn't. However, I was pretty sure that some people on this board would express their offense about the singing of Christmas carols at the holiday pageant, and it was to them that I was referring. So, just to make things clear, Ms. Waggoner was just misguided or had an inaccurate view of the law. However, if you who are reading this want to ban Christmas carols that makes you intolerant, almost by definition.

Meadmaker, you're trying to change the subject. The subject is this teacher, who got fired because of pressure from members of her community. Stop trying to put people here on the defensive by this sophomoric technique. No one is going to fall for it.

corplinx · 23rd March 2006, 07:33 AM

Its Bush's Fault! Oh wait, JJ beat me to it. (if the quotes of his in other posts are accurate, hes on the naughtly list right now)

ImaginalDisc · 23rd March 2006, 07:40 AM

I have nothing to contribute!

Oh wait, corplinx beat me to it.

If you want to make or refute points, join us. If you want to make fly-by personnal attacks, start a thread in flame wars.

corplinx · 23rd March 2006, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

I have nothing to contribute!

Oh wait, corplinx beat me to it.

If you want to make or refute points, join us. If you want to make fly-by personnal attacks, start a thread in flame wars.

It may be hard for you to grasp how I refuted a point but I assure you I did. I lampooned someone's position which I considered silly and not worthy of real discussion. I can't raise your IQ to understand that, but I can ask you to let the moderators deal with me and shut the (rule 8) up telling me how, where, or why I should post.

ImaginalDisc · 23rd March 2006, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by corplinx

It may be hard for you to grasp how I refuted a point but I assure you I did. I lampooned someone's position which I considered silly and not worthy of real discussion. I can't raise your IQ to understand that, but I can ask you to let the moderators deal with me and shut the (rule 8) up telling me how, where, or why I should post.

No, you expressed disagreement and derision; you actually discussed nothing.

Dr Adequate · 23rd March 2006, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

No, the teacher didn't. However, I was pretty sure that some people on this board would express their offense about the singing of Christmas carols at the holiday pageant, and it was to them that I was referring.

Nice backpedal. So when you say that she was "suspended for being an idiot", to what, exactly, were you referring?

Here's your post again in full:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot.

Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot.

I presume you mean something by it.

Meadmaker · 23rd March 2006, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

Nice backpedal. So when you say that she was "suspended for being an idiot", to what, exactly, were you referring?

Here's your post again in full:

"She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot.

Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot."

I presume you mean something by it.

Here's what I meant. First two sentences: "She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot."

This followed a quoted section discussing her refusal to allow Christmas carols. I was calling her an idiot for refusing to allow Christmas carols in the school holiday pageant, and saying that it was that refusal that led to her suspension.

Next sentence:"Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot."

Note the change from third person to second person. This was directed toward "you", the reader.

My English teachers would be appalled at the poor composition and rhetorical techniques displayed, and the confusion is quite understandable. I hope it's now clear.

Ms. Waggoner was quite foolish to walk into a small town and impose some misguided view of what should and should not be allowed in a Christmas concert. She was quoted as saying you can't sing Christmas carols at a public school, and on that point she is incorrect. You can. There are no laws against it. Courts have allowed religious music to be performed in public schools as part of holiday and cultural activities. When, in the face of community opposition to her not allowing Christmas carols, she persisted in that position, she made some enemies in the town. Those enemies then looked for any excuse to run her out of town, which they found.

Now, there are many on JREF who would applaud her stand on Christmas carols. To those of you who would do so, I say that you should learn a little tolerance. No harm will be done if your kid has to listen to, or even sing, "Away in a Manger". If you don't like it, voice your opposition. If you really don't like it, refuse to participate. But if the whole darned town wants to hear "Silent Night" except you, ask yourself if you are making a principled stand for the separation of church and state, or if you are just being whiny.

Again, I reiterate, if that is all there is to the story, she shouldn't have been dismissed. She was hired to teach music, and she apparently was doing that fairly well. Her political position shouldn't have caused her to be dismissed, and if it did, she should be reinstated or compensated. All I'm saying is that she was apparently insensitive to the culture of the place she was in, and made people angry. That's what got her fired.

(As an aside, I grew up in a small town. It's also entirely possible that the "real" reason some people hated her has absolutely nothing to do with carols, or opera, or anything else in the news. It's always possible that she was best friends with someone who slept with the wrong husband. That sort of thing happens in small towns. However, I'll assume that such issues are peripheral to the topic.)

Mycroft · 23rd March 2006, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by Melendwyr

So instead she should have taken the opportunity available to her of preaching to the damned?

Yes.

Mycroft · 23rd March 2006, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

I'd be offended if my child were asked to sing religious hymns at a function in a public school, because guess what, that violates the sepration of church and state. Go sing those at a church.

You're going to be a lot of fun when you have kids in the public school system.

ImaginalDisc · 23rd March 2006, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

You're going to be a lot of fun when you have kids in the public school system.

Indeed, because I won't back down and let my children be prosyletized to on tax payer money. Just as my parents stuck up for me, I'll stick up for them.

ImaginalDisc · 23rd March 2006, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Here's what I meant. First two sentences: "She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot."

This followed a quoted section discussing her refusal to allow Christmas carols. I was calling her an idiot for refusing to allow Christmas carols in the school holiday pageant, and saying that it was that refusal that led to her suspension.

Next sentence:"Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot."

Note the change from third person to second person. This was directed toward "you", the reader.

My English teachers would be appalled at the poor composition and rhetorical techniques displayed, and the confusion is quite understandable. I hope it's now clear.

Ms. Waggoner was quite foolish to walk into a small town and impose some misguided view of what should and should not be allowed in a Christmas concert. She was quoted as saying you can't sing Christmas carols at a public school, and on that point she is incorrect. You can. There are no laws against it. Courts have allowed religious music to be performed in public schools as part of holiday and cultural activities. When, in the face of community opposition to her not allowing Christmas carols, she persisted in that position, she made some enemies in the town. Those enemies then looked for any excuse to run her out of town, which they found.

Now, there are many on JREF who would applaud her stand on Christmas carols. To those of you who would do so, I say that you should learn a little tolerance. No harm will be done if your kid has to listen to, or even sing, "Away in a Manger". If you don't like it, voice your opposition. If you really don't like it, refuse to participate. But if the whole darned town wants to hear "Silent Night" except you, ask yourself if you are making a principled stand for the separation of church and state, or if you are just being whiny.

Again, I reiterate, if that is all there is to the story, she shouldn't have been dismissed. She was hired to teach music, and she apparently was doing that fairly well. Her political position shouldn't have caused her to be dismissed, and if it did, she should be reinstated or compensated. All I'm saying is that she was apparently insensitive to the culture of the place she was in, and made people angry. That's what got her fired.

(As an aside, I grew up in a small town. It's also entirely possible that the "real" reason some people hated her has absolutely nothing to do with carols, or opera, or anything else in the news. It's always possible that she was best friends with someone who slept with the wrong husband. That sort of thing happens in small towns. However, I'll assume that such issues are peripheral to the topic.)

Hmm, let's see.

“I was definitely not sensitive to the conservative nature of the community, and I’ve learned that,” Waggoner said in Sunday’s editions of The Denver Post. “However, from what has been said about me, that I’m a Satan worshipper, my character, I can’t believe all of this. My intention was just to expose the kids to opera.”

Waggoner, who is in her first year teaching vocal music in Bennett, said she doesn’t expect to stay in town.

“I know I’m not accepted here, that I’m not welcome here by the parents,” she said. “It’s a very uncomfortable position.”

Quote:

“I was definitely not sensitive to the conservative nature of the community, and I’ve learned that,” Waggoner said in Sunday’s editions of The Denver Post. “However, from what has been said about me, that I’m a Satan worshipper, my character, I can’t believe all of this. My intention was just to expose the kids to opera.”

Waggoner, who is in her first year teaching vocal music in Bennett, said she doesn’t expect to stay in town.

“I know I’m not accepted here, that I’m not welcome here by the parents,” she said. “It’s a very uncomfortable position.”

http://www.denverpost.com/entertainment/ci_3540512

Quote:

Many parents agreed the video's violent moments and depictions of the devil were inappropriate for young elementary school students, she said. After receiving assurances that a similar situation wouldn't happen again, most were satisfied.

But a small group refuses to let the situation die, she said, in part because of lingering anger over Waggoner's decision to make a December concert an end-of-the semester recital without the expected Christmas carols.

You're right Meadmaker, it's the people who are defninding this new teacher who are intolerant, and not the minority slandering her, and running her out of town on a rail.
[/Sarcasm]

Mycroft · 23rd March 2006, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Indeed, because I won't back down and let my children be prosyletized to on tax payer money. Just as my parents stuck up for me, I'll stick up for them.

What happens when your kids don't want you to stick up for them in this specific way?

ImaginalDisc · 23rd March 2006, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

What happens when your kids don't want you to stick up for them in this specific way?

Then that's fine. If my kids *chose* to sing some religious hymn in class, that's fine by me. If they're compelled to by the administration, that's not.

Meadmaker · 23rd March 2006, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

You're right Meadmaker, it's the people who are defninding this new teacher who are intolerant, and not the minority slandering her, and running her out of town on a rail.
[/Sarcasm]

There's plenty of intolerance to go around. You can all share.

ImaginalDisc · 23rd March 2006, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

There's plenty of intolerance to go around. You can all share.

Are you accusing those who promote a lack of religion in schools of intolerance?

BPSCG · 23rd March 2006, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Parents accused Ms. Waggoner of devil worship and, in at least one instance, of not being a Christian, as if not being a Christian were somehow reprehensible. In fact, Ms. Waggoner, herself an opera singer, describes herself as a Christian and has two Christian recordings among her credentials.
Ms. Waggoner, the mother of two children, was further accused of being a lesbian aiming to promote homosexuality. Ms. Wagonner says she was - get ready for this - explaining “trouser roles” in opera. (In Faust , a young man in love with Marguerite is played by a soprano.) Other parents complained that the video deals with abortion; Ms. Waggoner says flatly that they lied.

This is hilarious.

If you're not familiar with the opera, it's based on part I of Goethe's play, where Faust sells his soul to Mephistopheles in exchange for youth, wins the heart of the beautiful maiden Marguerite (Gretchen in Goethe's play), gets her pregnant, kills her brother, and abandons her. She goes crazy, murders her baby (she does not abort it), and goes to prison where she awaits the scaffold. Faust and Mephistopheles get into her cell to help her escape. She sees Mephistopheles and prays wildly for the angels to carry her soul to God, while Faust pleads with her to escape with him. She looks at him, imagines his hands are covered with blood, exclaims, "Go! You fill me with horror!" and falls over dead. Mephistopheles proclaims, "She is judged!" But a heavenly chorale proclaims "She is saved!" and the curtain falls. Wonderful, glorious music in that last scene, even if you no more believe in God, Mephistopheles, or angels than you do in Santa and the Easter Bunny

Heavy stuff for elementary school kids, no doubt. But non-Christian? Please - it's a story partly about a sinner's redemption through Christ; how could it be more Christian? Deals with abortion? Don't be ridiculous. This is reminiscent of the yahoos who wanted the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn banned because Huck refers to Jim as a "n*****r." Has nothing to do with "the current political climate", and everything to do with the braying cultural ignoranti always in our midst.

JamesDillon · 23rd March 2006, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot.

Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot.

I believe the article says that the event was a "winter concert," not a "holiday pageant." It's hardly intolerant bigotry to keep religion out of secular events in public schools.

ImaginalDisc · 23rd March 2006, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

This is hilarious.

If you're not familiar with the opera, it's based on part I of Goethe's play, where Faust sells his soul to Mephistopheles in exchange for youth, wins the heart of the beautiful maiden Marguerite (Gretchen in Goethe's play), gets her pregnant, kills her brother, and abandons her. She goes crazy, murders her baby (she does not abort it), and goes to prison where she awaits the scaffold. Faust and Mephistopheles get into her cell to help her escape. She sees Mephistopheles and prays wildly for the angels to carry her soul to God, while Faust pleads with her to escape with him. She looks at him, imagines his hands are covered with blood, exclaims, "Go! You fill me with horror!" and falls over dead. Mephistopheles proclaims, "She is judged!" But a heavenly chorale proclaims "She is saved!" and the curtain falls. Wonderful, glorious music in that last scene, even if you no more believe in God, Mephistopheles, or angels than you do in Santa and the Easter Bunny

Heavy stuff for elementary school kids, no doubt. But non-Christian? Please - it's a story partly about a sinner's redemption through Christ; how could it be more Christian? Deals with abortion? Don't be ridiculous. This is reminiscent of the yahoos who wanted the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn banned because Huck refers to Jim as a "n*****r." Has nothing to do with "the current Political climate", and everything to do with the braying cultural ignoranti always in our midst.

Huzzah!

Meadmaker · 23rd March 2006, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by JamesDillon

It's hardly intolerant bigotry to keep religion out of secular events in public schools.

Well, then, you really ought to be complaining about the showing of the Opera "Faust", because it is a Christian play.

Meadmaker · 23rd March 2006, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Are you accusing those who promote a lack of religion in schools of intolerance?

If "promoting a lack of religion" means not allowing the singing of Christmas carols, yes.

jj · 23rd March 2006, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

There's plenty of intolerance to go around. You can all share.

So, if I don't want to participate in your religion, I'm intolerant?

Really, now? Could you explain further?

Melendwyr · 23rd March 2006, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Yes.

Perhaps you don't understand the significance of "preaching to the damned".

Considering your posting history, it's more likely that you approve of people wasting their time on pointless, hopeless tasks.

jj · 23rd March 2006, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Well, then, you really ought to be complaining about the showing of the Opera "Faust", because it is a Christian play.

Really. Then one being told that one must sing "Glory to God" and one being told that one must watch an opera (notice the difference in participation, please) is somehow the same?

I object strongly to seeing people forced to participate in religious activities. That does not mean that I feel they should not be studied, AS LONG AS SAID STUDY IS FROM A SECULAR POINT OF VIEW. (In a public school.)

In a way, this mirrors my point regarding evolution. I think that every high school student should be able to explain what the TOE is, and what the evidence for it is, accurately, concisely, and easily, in order to graduate. You notice I don't say they should have to accept it.

Meadmaker · 23rd March 2006, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Melendwyr

Perhaps you don't understand the significance of "preaching to the damned".

Considering your posting history, it's more likely that you approve of people wasting their time on pointless, hopeless tasks.

You have a good point.

On the subject of "tolerance". In order to be "tolerant" you have to decide that there is something you don't like, but you will "tolerate" it. So, if you don't like Christmas carols, but you decide not to make a fuss about it, you are "tolerating" the carols. If you call your lawyer to make them stop, you are not "tolerating" the carols. I happen to think Christmas carols are something that everyone ought to tolerate.

If the teacher had tried to slip in something from some other culture in addition to the Christmas carols, and the local fundies complained, then I would accuse them of intolerance. If they get bent out of shape if someone wants to sing "Lord of Light" (a pagan solstice song I heard once a long time ago) I would tell them to shut up, because it's just a song. So is "Silent Night".

(That's one reason I wonder what was in the concert. I read one line of one news story that referred to a multicultural program. If that article was correct, and lots of cultures were welcome, unless they happened to be the culture that the majority of the townsfolk, then I say hangin's too good for her. However, I would hope it wasn't that extreme. I would hope that it was completely secular, and she just was being overly sensitive to the whiners.)

ImaginalDisc · 23rd March 2006, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

You have a good point.

On the subject of "tolerance". In order to be "tolerant" you have to decide that there is something you don't like, but you will "tolerate" it. So, if you don't like Christmas carols, but you decide not to make a fuss about it, you are "tolerating" the carols. If you call your lawyer to make them stop, you are not "tolerating" the carols. I happen to think Christmas carols are something that everyone ought to tolerate.

Wow, way to dodge. Meadmaker, will you admit that there's a clear different between compelling children to sing songs, and asking children to passively wach a film?

TragicMonkey · 23rd March 2006, 03:51 PM

People, please. Let's all just agree that all cultures suck, as do all religions including the lack of religion. Why? Because cultures and religions are invented by people, and all people suck.

Meadmaker · 23rd March 2006, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Wow, way to dodge. Meadmaker, will you admit that there's a clear different between compelling children to sing songs, and asking children to passively wach a film?

ID, if someone disagrees about what is important, that doesn't constitute a dodge.

But, to your question. Yes, I agree there's a difference.

And the difference is irrelevant to what I was saying. If you think it's just horrible that someone might be asked to sing a Christmas carol, then you really need to adjust your priorities. It's not so bad. Try it. Learn the tune to "Greensleeves" and substitute "What Child is This". You will find that at the end of the song, you do not have a sudden urge to teach Intelligent Design.

How about a compromise? They can sing Christmas songs, but only if they are in a different language. Tonight's program will be "Stiehle Nacht", "Adeste Fidelis", and "Mi Chamokah". (That last one isn't a Christmas song, or a holiday song of any sort, but no one in Bennett Colorado will know what it is, and they will think "Chamokah" is "Chanukah", and they are being multicultural.)

jj · 23rd March 2006, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

If you think it's just horrible that someone might be asked to sing a Christmas carol, then you really need to adjust your priorities. It's not so bad. Try it. Learn the tune to "Greensleeves" and substitute "What Child is This". You will find that at the end of the song, you do not have a sudden urge to teach Intelligent Design.

In other words, it's ok to force schoolchildren to worship your god, meaningfully or not, because it's "not so bad"?

Sorry, no.

BPSCG · 23rd March 2006, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

How about a compromise? They can sing Christmas songs, but only if they are in a different language. Tonight's program will be "Stiehle Nacht", "Adeste Fidelis", and "Mi Chamokah". (That last one isn't a Christmas song, or a holiday song of any sort, but no one in Bennett Colorado will know what it is, and they will think "Chamokah" is "Chanukah", and they are being multicultural.)

Hey, if that Jew Felix Mendelssohn could write Hark! The Herald Angels Sing and not fall over and die from a fit of apoplexy, I think an eight-year-old kid whose parents are atheists can stand to sing Silent Night or Stille Nacht or whatever and the world will continue to spin on its axis.

Mycroft · 23rd March 2006, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Melendwyr

Perhaps you don't understand the significance of "preaching to the damned".

It would be the opposite of preaching to the choir, would it not? Meaning, rather than preaching to those who already hold your opinion, you're preaching to those who will not be convinced under any circumstances.

Originally Posted by Melendwyr

Considering your posting history, it's more likely that you approve of people wasting their time on pointless, hopeless tasks.

Just because the person you are preaching to isn’t convinced does not mean your efforts don’t have a positive effect. Resigning doesn't accomplish anything, drawing national attention will.

Melendwyr · 24th March 2006, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Just because the person you are preaching to isn’t convinced does not mean your efforts don’t have a positive effect. Resigning doesn't accomplish anything, drawing national attention will.

Resigning drew national attention, Mycroft. That's why we're talking about it now.

jj · 24th March 2006, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Hey, if that Jew Felix Mendelssohn could write Hark! The Herald Angels Sing and not fall over and die from a fit of apoplexy, I think an eight-year-old kid whose parents are atheists can stand to sing Silent Night or Stille Nacht or whatever and the world will continue to spin on its axis.

And why is that? Because a bunch of children being forced to worship a deity that may or may not exist, that they may or may not believe in, on government-funded time, has no effect on the world's axis.

Well, one might point out that that very well could have sime reading on the actual question of deific existance, but that's for another thread, the point here is that you are saying it's ok for the governmen to fund religious worship.

ImaginalDisc · 24th March 2006, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

ID, if someone disagrees about what is important, that doesn't constitute a dodge.

But, to your question. Yes, I agree there's a difference.

And the difference is irrelevant to what I was saying. If you think it's just horrible that someone might be asked to sing a Christmas carol, then you really need to adjust your priorities. It's not so bad. Try it. Learn the tune to "Greensleeves" and substitute "What Child is This". You will find that at the end of the song, you do not have a sudden urge to teach Intelligent Design.

How about a compromise? They can sing Christmas songs, but only if they are in a different language. Tonight's program will be "Stiehle Nacht", "Adeste Fidelis", and "Mi Chamokah". (That last one isn't a Christmas song, or a holiday song of any sort, but no one in Bennett Colorado will know what it is, and they will think "Chamokah" is "Chanukah", and they are being multicultural.)

You're in luck! There's already a compromise between atheists like me, christians, like you, and hindus like the Kumars, it's called the seperation of church and state, and that circumvents the whole issue.

BPSCG · 24th March 2006, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by jj

Well, one might point out that that very well could have sime reading on the actual question of deific existance, but that's for another thread, the point here is that you are saying it's ok for the governmen to fund religious worship.

No, I'm saying I think Hark! The Herald Angels Sing is a good tune, even if I think the lyrics are a buncha nonsense and I like hearing it, and the world isn't going to come to an end if an eight-year-old sings it.

And I think The First Noel is pig doots and I don't want to hear it in school or on the subway (don't ask...), or even in a church.

And don't get me started on that goddam little drummer boy...

But Jesus M. Christ, there are people out there who, as I write this, are plotting to kill as many of us as they can, and the Social Security system is going broke and congress doesn't give a @#$%, and the Washington Nationals baseball team still doesn't have an owner. Christmas carols in schools strikes me as de minimus.

22nd March 2006, 09:41 PM	#41
Achán hiNidráne Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,979	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot. ...or, more likely, we just don't think that a public school is an appropriate place to advertise anyone's religion. If you want your spawn to warble X-Mas carols, put them in your church choir. Don't expect those who don't believe as you do to fund your taste in music or religion. Oh, by the way, in my humble opinion after your comments on the Gay Marriage thread, I don't think you're in a position to accuse anyone of being "an intolerant bigot." Pot, kettle, black.
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold"

23rd March 2006, 04:09 AM	#44
Achán hiNidráne Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,979	Originally Posted by Dr Adequate However, the teacher in question did not say that she was offended by singing Christmas carols, and you are flailing away at a straw woman. Ah, but to the Religious Right, criticism equals bigotry. (Sort of like Issac Haye's alleged comments about South Park.) It appears that in Meadmaker's world Christianity is the only religion that counts. All those heathens and pagans had just better shut up and listen to the children sing songs that don't reflect their point of view (or pay for via their taxes) whether they like it or not.
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold"

23rd March 2006, 05:01 AM	#45
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,466	Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert ...or, more likely, we just don't think that a public school is an appropriate place to advertise anyone's religion. If you want your spawn to warble X-Mas carols, put them in your church choir. Don't expect those who don't believe as you do to fund your taste in music or religion. They're songs. Music. Tunes. I don't like banning music. They're traditional. They are part of a holiday celebration. Why do you suppose they hold "holiday pageants" in December? Also, there's no court ruling I'm aware of that would prohibit them. I would guess, legal minds can correct me if I'm wrong, that like holiday displays on public grounds, they are considered acceptable if they are part of an overall secular presentation. A lot of people here would love to see them banned, but the courts aren't on your side, at least not yet. So, Ms. Waggoner took it upon herself to make sure she didn't offend the Jehovah's Witnesses (I wonder if there were any), and made an enemy of most of the town, including a few very squeaky wheels. I don't think someone should be fired for her political or religious beliefs, so unless there is something else that hasn't made the media, it looks like she has a very strong case for a lawsuit against the district. That doesn't change the fact that it was pretty darned dumb to not allow Christmas carols at the "holiday pageant". And if you whine to a lawyer because some kids are singing songs you don't like, you are an intolerant bigot. (I haven't seen anyinformation, but I wonder what they did do at the holiday pageant. "Winter Wonderland", but no "Away in a Manger"? I've never seen a reference.)
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

23rd March 2006, 05:05 AM	#46
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,466	Originally Posted by Dr Adequate However, the teacher in question did not say that she was offended by singing Christmas carols, and you are flailing away at a straw woman. No, the teacher didn't. However, I was pretty sure that some people on this board would express their offense about the singing of Christmas carols at the holiday pageant, and it was to them that I was referring. So, just to make things clear, Ms. Waggoner was just misguided or had an inaccurate view of the law. However, if you who are reading this want to ban Christmas carols that makes you intolerant, almost by definition.
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

23rd March 2006, 06:07 AM	#47
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Meadmaker No, the teacher didn't. However, I was pretty sure that some people on this board would express their offense about the singing of Christmas carols at the holiday pageant, and it was to them that I was referring. So, just to make things clear, Ms. Waggoner was just misguided or had an inaccurate view of the law. However, if you who are reading this want to ban Christmas carols that makes you intolerant, almost by definition. Meadmaker, you're trying to change the subject. The subject is this teacher, who got fired because of pressure from members of her community. Stop trying to put people here on the defensive by this sophomoric technique. No one is going to fall for it.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

22nd March 2006, 10:09 PM	#42
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,897	Originally Posted by Ed A seemingly reasonable person had the bully pulpit. She ran away. Not smart. That is unnecessarily unpleasant. You agree that she is seemingly reasonable. Well, good. You say she "had the bully pulpit" --- an Americanism I think I understand. But obviously she still does have the "bully pulpit" --- she's still being reported by the media. And she must have had the "bully pulpit" before she was elected mayor, or how would she be elected mayor? And you say she "ran away". I have the impression --- stop me if I'm wrong --- that being mayor of a small town in America is a mark of respect rather than political power. I think also it varies from state to state. So do correct any error I make. But the impression I have is that the most effective gesture the mayor could make on behalf of the good guys was to resign her office. If I remember rightly, you're one of the posters who is worried by the Douglas Adams Paradox --- that those who seek political power are least worthy of it. Maybe in the general case you're right. But in this particular case, the mayor laid down her politcal office as a protest --- so you call her a coward. Is there any action you can't be cynical about? I say here is one person in public life who has laid aside personal ambition to make a protest for what is right. Sheesh, you might as well say that Rosa Parks was lazy. I applaud the mayor. Resigning was a classy thing to do.

22nd March 2006, 10:39 PM	#43
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,897	Originally Posted by Meadmaker She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot. Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot. However, the teacher in question did not say that she was offended by singing Christmas carols, and you are flailing away at a straw woman.

23rd March 2006, 07:33 AM	#48
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Its Bush's Fault! Oh wait, JJ beat me to it. (if the quotes of his in other posts are accurate, hes on the naughtly list right now)
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944

23rd March 2006, 07:40 AM	#49
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	I have nothing to contribute! Oh wait, corplinx beat me to it. If you want to make or refute points, join us. If you want to make fly-by personnal attacks, start a thread in flame wars.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

23rd March 2006, 07:45 AM	#50
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc I have nothing to contribute! Oh wait, corplinx beat me to it. If you want to make or refute points, join us. If you want to make fly-by personnal attacks, start a thread in flame wars. It may be hard for you to grasp how I refuted a point but I assure you I did. I lampooned someone's position which I considered silly and not worthy of real discussion. I can't raise your IQ to understand that, but I can ask you to let the moderators deal with me and shut the (rule 8) up telling me how, where, or why I should post.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944

23rd March 2006, 07:50 AM	#51
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by corplinx It may be hard for you to grasp how I refuted a point but I assure you I did. I lampooned someone's position which I considered silly and not worthy of real discussion. I can't raise your IQ to understand that, but I can ask you to let the moderators deal with me and shut the (rule 8) up telling me how, where, or why I should post. No, you expressed disagreement and derision; you actually discussed nothing.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

23rd March 2006, 07:52 AM	#52
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,897	Originally Posted by Meadmaker No, the teacher didn't. However, I was pretty sure that some people on this board would express their offense about the singing of Christmas carols at the holiday pageant, and it was to them that I was referring. Nice backpedal. So when you say that she was "suspended for being an idiot", to what, exactly, were you referring? Here's your post again in full: Originally Posted by Meadmaker She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot. Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot. I presume you mean something by it.

23rd March 2006, 08:54 AM	#53
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,466	Originally Posted by Dr Adequate Nice backpedal. So when you say that she was "suspended for being an idiot", to what, exactly, were you referring? Here's your post again in full: "She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot. Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot." I presume you mean something by it. Here's what I meant. First two sentences: "She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot." This followed a quoted section discussing her refusal to allow Christmas carols. I was calling her an idiot for refusing to allow Christmas carols in the school holiday pageant, and saying that it was that refusal that led to her suspension. Next sentence:"Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot." Note the change from third person to second person. This was directed toward "you", the reader. My English teachers would be appalled at the poor composition and rhetorical techniques displayed, and the confusion is quite understandable. I hope it's now clear. Ms. Waggoner was quite foolish to walk into a small town and impose some misguided view of what should and should not be allowed in a Christmas concert. She was quoted as saying you can't sing Christmas carols at a public school, and on that point she is incorrect. You can. There are no laws against it. Courts have allowed religious music to be performed in public schools as part of holiday and cultural activities. When, in the face of community opposition to her not allowing Christmas carols, she persisted in that position, she made some enemies in the town. Those enemies then looked for any excuse to run her out of town, which they found. Now, there are many on JREF who would applaud her stand on Christmas carols. To those of you who would do so, I say that you should learn a little tolerance. No harm will be done if your kid has to listen to, or even sing, "Away in a Manger". If you don't like it, voice your opposition. If you really don't like it, refuse to participate. But if the whole darned town wants to hear "Silent Night" except you, ask yourself if you are making a principled stand for the separation of church and state, or if you are just being whiny. Again, I reiterate, if that is all there is to the story, she shouldn't have been dismissed. She was hired to teach music, and she apparently was doing that fairly well. Her political position shouldn't have caused her to be dismissed, and if it did, she should be reinstated or compensated. All I'm saying is that she was apparently insensitive to the culture of the place she was in, and made people angry. That's what got her fired. (As an aside, I grew up in a small town. It's also entirely possible that the "real" reason some people hated her has absolutely nothing to do with carols, or opera, or anything else in the news. It's always possible that she was best friends with someone who slept with the wrong husband. That sort of thing happens in small towns. However, I'll assume that such issues are peripheral to the topic.)
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

23rd March 2006, 08:55 AM	#54
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,149	Originally Posted by Melendwyr So instead she should have taken the opportunity available to her of preaching to the damned? Yes.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

23rd March 2006, 08:56 AM	#55
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,149	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc I'd be offended if my child were asked to sing religious hymns at a function in a public school, because guess what, that violates the sepration of church and state. Go sing those at a church. You're going to be a lot of fun when you have kids in the public school system.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

23rd March 2006, 09:00 AM	#56
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Mycroft You're going to be a lot of fun when you have kids in the public school system. Indeed, because I won't back down and let my children be prosyletized to on tax payer money. Just as my parents stuck up for me, I'll stick up for them.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

23rd March 2006, 09:10 AM	#57
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Here's what I meant. First two sentences: "She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot." This followed a quoted section discussing her refusal to allow Christmas carols. I was calling her an idiot for refusing to allow Christmas carols in the school holiday pageant, and saying that it was that refusal that led to her suspension. Next sentence:"Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot." Note the change from third person to second person. This was directed toward "you", the reader. My English teachers would be appalled at the poor composition and rhetorical techniques displayed, and the confusion is quite understandable. I hope it's now clear. Ms. Waggoner was quite foolish to walk into a small town and impose some misguided view of what should and should not be allowed in a Christmas concert. She was quoted as saying you can't sing Christmas carols at a public school, and on that point she is incorrect. You can. There are no laws against it. Courts have allowed religious music to be performed in public schools as part of holiday and cultural activities. When, in the face of community opposition to her not allowing Christmas carols, she persisted in that position, she made some enemies in the town. Those enemies then looked for any excuse to run her out of town, which they found. Now, there are many on JREF who would applaud her stand on Christmas carols. To those of you who would do so, I say that you should learn a little tolerance. No harm will be done if your kid has to listen to, or even sing, "Away in a Manger". If you don't like it, voice your opposition. If you really don't like it, refuse to participate. But if the whole darned town wants to hear "Silent Night" except you, ask yourself if you are making a principled stand for the separation of church and state, or if you are just being whiny. Again, I reiterate, if that is all there is to the story, she shouldn't have been dismissed. She was hired to teach music, and she apparently was doing that fairly well. Her political position shouldn't have caused her to be dismissed, and if it did, she should be reinstated or compensated. All I'm saying is that she was apparently insensitive to the culture of the place she was in, and made people angry. That's what got her fired. (As an aside, I grew up in a small town. It's also entirely possible that the "real" reason some people hated her has absolutely nothing to do with carols, or opera, or anything else in the news. It's always possible that she was best friends with someone who slept with the wrong husband. That sort of thing happens in small towns. However, I'll assume that such issues are peripheral to the topic.) Hmm, let's see. “I was definitely not sensitive to the conservative nature of the community, and I’ve learned that,” Waggoner said in Sunday’s editions of The Denver Post. “However, from what has been said about me, that I’m a Satan worshipper, my character, I can’t believe all of this. My intention was just to expose the kids to opera.” Waggoner, who is in her first year teaching vocal music in Bennett, said she doesn’t expect to stay in town. “I know I’m not accepted here, that I’m not welcome here by the parents,” she said. “It’s a very uncomfortable position.” Quote: “I was definitely not sensitive to the conservative nature of the community, and I’ve learned that,” Waggoner said in Sunday’s editions of The Denver Post. “However, from what has been said about me, that I’m a Satan worshipper, my character, I can’t believe all of this. My intention was just to expose the kids to opera.” Waggoner, who is in her first year teaching vocal music in Bennett, said she doesn’t expect to stay in town. “I know I’m not accepted here, that I’m not welcome here by the parents,” she said. “It’s a very uncomfortable position.” http://www.denverpost.com/entertainment/ci_3540512 Quote: Many parents agreed the video's violent moments and depictions of the devil were inappropriate for young elementary school students, she said. After receiving assurances that a similar situation wouldn't happen again, most were satisfied. But a small group refuses to let the situation die, she said, in part because of lingering anger over Waggoner's decision to make a December concert an end-of-the semester recital without the expected Christmas carols. You're right Meadmaker, it's the people who are defninding this new teacher who are intolerant, and not the minority slandering her, and running her out of town on a rail. [/Sarcasm]
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

23rd March 2006, 09:29 AM	#58
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,149	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc Indeed, because I won't back down and let my children be prosyletized to on tax payer money. Just as my parents stuck up for me, I'll stick up for them. What happens when your kids don't want you to stick up for them in this specific way?
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

23rd March 2006, 09:32 AM	#59
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Mycroft What happens when your kids don't want you to stick up for them in this specific way? Then that's fine. If my kids chose to sing some religious hymn in class, that's fine by me. If they're compelled to by the administration, that's not.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

23rd March 2006, 09:37 AM	#60
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,466	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc You're right Meadmaker, it's the people who are defninding this new teacher who are intolerant, and not the minority slandering her, and running her out of town on a rail. [/Sarcasm] There's plenty of intolerance to go around. You can all share.
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

23rd March 2006, 10:29 AM	#61
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Meadmaker There's plenty of intolerance to go around. You can all share. Are you accusing those who promote a lack of religion in schools of intolerance?
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

23rd March 2006, 11:05 AM	#62
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Quote: Parents accused Ms. Waggoner of devil worship and, in at least one instance, of not being a Christian, as if not being a Christian were somehow reprehensible. In fact, Ms. Waggoner, herself an opera singer, describes herself as a Christian and has two Christian recordings among her credentials. Ms. Waggoner, the mother of two children, was further accused of being a lesbian aiming to promote homosexuality. Ms. Wagonner says she was - get ready for this - explaining “trouser roles” in opera. (In Faust , a young man in love with Marguerite is played by a soprano.) Other parents complained that the video deals with abortion; Ms. Waggoner says flatly that they lied. This is hilarious. If you're not familiar with the opera, it's based on part I of Goethe's play, where Faust sells his soul to Mephistopheles in exchange for youth, wins the heart of the beautiful maiden Marguerite (Gretchen in Goethe's play), gets her pregnant, kills her brother, and abandons her. She goes crazy, murders her baby (she does not abort it), and goes to prison where she awaits the scaffold. Faust and Mephistopheles get into her cell to help her escape. She sees Mephistopheles and prays wildly for the angels to carry her soul to God, while Faust pleads with her to escape with him. She looks at him, imagines his hands are covered with blood, exclaims, "Go! You fill me with horror!" and falls over dead. Mephistopheles proclaims, "She is judged!" But a heavenly chorale proclaims "She is saved!" and the curtain falls. Wonderful, glorious music in that last scene, even if you no more believe in God, Mephistopheles, or angels than you do in Santa and the Easter Bunny Heavy stuff for elementary school kids, no doubt. But non-Christian? Please - it's a story partly about a sinner's redemption through Christ; how could it be more Christian? Deals with abortion? Don't be ridiculous. This is reminiscent of the yahoos who wanted the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn banned because Huck refers to Jim as a "n****r." Has nothing to do with "the current political climate", and everything to do with the braying cultural ignoranti* always in our midst.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia. Last edited by BPSCG; 23rd March 2006 at 11:12 AM.

23rd March 2006, 11:08 AM	#63
JamesDillon Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Berkeley, CA Posts: 2,631	Originally Posted by Meadmaker She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot. Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot. I believe the article says that the event was a "winter concert," not a "holiday pageant." It's hardly intolerant bigotry to keep religion out of secular events in public schools.
	__________________ "To read the bible without horror, we must undo every thing that is tender, sympathising, and benevolent in the heart of man." --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

23rd March 2006, 11:09 AM	#64
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by BPSCG This is hilarious. If you're not familiar with the opera, it's based on part I of Goethe's play, where Faust sells his soul to Mephistopheles in exchange for youth, wins the heart of the beautiful maiden Marguerite (Gretchen in Goethe's play), gets her pregnant, kills her brother, and abandons her. She goes crazy, murders her baby (she does not abort it), and goes to prison where she awaits the scaffold. Faust and Mephistopheles get into her cell to help her escape. She sees Mephistopheles and prays wildly for the angels to carry her soul to God, while Faust pleads with her to escape with him. She looks at him, imagines his hands are covered with blood, exclaims, "Go! You fill me with horror!" and falls over dead. Mephistopheles proclaims, "She is judged!" But a heavenly chorale proclaims "She is saved!" and the curtain falls. Wonderful, glorious music in that last scene, even if you no more believe in God, Mephistopheles, or angels than you do in Santa and the Easter Bunny Heavy stuff for elementary school kids, no doubt. But non-Christian? Please - it's a story partly about a sinner's redemption through Christ; how could it be more Christian? Deals with abortion? Don't be ridiculous. This is reminiscent of the yahoos who wanted the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn banned because Huck refers to Jim as a "n****r." Has nothing to do with "the current Political climate", and everything to do with the braying cultural ignoranti* always in our midst. Huzzah!
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

23rd March 2006, 01:24 PM	#65
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,466	Originally Posted by JamesDillon It's hardly intolerant bigotry to keep religion out of secular events in public schools. Well, then, you really ought to be complaining about the showing of the Opera "Faust", because it is a Christian play.
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

23rd March 2006, 01:26 PM	#66
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,466	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc Are you accusing those who promote a lack of religion in schools of intolerance? If "promoting a lack of religion" means not allowing the singing of Christmas carols, yes.
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

23rd March 2006, 01:56 PM	#67
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,709	Originally Posted by Meadmaker There's plenty of intolerance to go around. You can all share. So, if I don't want to participate in your religion, I'm intolerant? Really, now? Could you explain further?
	__________________ The Power to Quit

23rd March 2006, 02:00 PM	#68
Melendwyr Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,064	Originally Posted by Mycroft Yes. Perhaps you don't understand the significance of "preaching to the damned". Considering your posting history, it's more likely that you approve of people wasting their time on pointless, hopeless tasks.
Melendwyr Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,064	__________________ Arguing with the irrational is like giving medicine to a dead man or preaching to the damned. "Dance with us, GIR! Dance with us into oblivion!" "Oddly, stating that one has no creed assures that one has no creed." -- Upchurch "I am the only one here using reason." -- Interesting Ian "You cannot respond to the arguments of TIMECUBE!" -- TimeCube guy

23rd March 2006, 02:01 PM	#69
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,709	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Well, then, you really ought to be complaining about the showing of the Opera "Faust", because it is a Christian play. Really. Then one being told that one must sing "Glory to God" and one being told that one must watch an opera (notice the difference in participation, please) is somehow the same? I object strongly to seeing people forced to participate in religious activities. That does not mean that I feel they should not be studied, AS LONG AS SAID STUDY IS FROM A SECULAR POINT OF VIEW. (In a public school.) In a way, this mirrors my point regarding evolution. I think that every high school student should be able to explain what the TOE is, and what the evidence for it is, accurately, concisely, and easily, in order to graduate. You notice I don't say they should have to accept it.
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23rd March 2006, 02:47 PM	#70
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,466	Originally Posted by Melendwyr Perhaps you don't understand the significance of "preaching to the damned". Considering your posting history, it's more likely that you approve of people wasting their time on pointless, hopeless tasks. You have a good point. On the subject of "tolerance". In order to be "tolerant" you have to decide that there is something you don't like, but you will "tolerate" it. So, if you don't like Christmas carols, but you decide not to make a fuss about it, you are "tolerating" the carols. If you call your lawyer to make them stop, you are not "tolerating" the carols. I happen to think Christmas carols are something that everyone ought to tolerate. If the teacher had tried to slip in something from some other culture in addition to the Christmas carols, and the local fundies complained, then I would accuse them of intolerance. If they get bent out of shape if someone wants to sing "Lord of Light" (a pagan solstice song I heard once a long time ago) I would tell them to shut up, because it's just a song. So is "Silent Night". (That's one reason I wonder what was in the concert. I read one line of one news story that referred to a multicultural program. If that article was correct, and lots of cultures were welcome, unless they happened to be the culture that the majority of the townsfolk, then I say hangin's too good for her. However, I would hope it wasn't that extreme. I would hope that it was completely secular, and she just was being overly sensitive to the whiners.)
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

23rd March 2006, 02:57 PM	#71
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Meadmaker You have a good point. On the subject of "tolerance". In order to be "tolerant" you have to decide that there is something you don't like, but you will "tolerate" it. So, if you don't like Christmas carols, but you decide not to make a fuss about it, you are "tolerating" the carols. If you call your lawyer to make them stop, you are not "tolerating" the carols. I happen to think Christmas carols are something that everyone ought to tolerate. Wow, way to dodge. Meadmaker, will you admit that there's a clear different between compelling children to sing songs, and asking children to passively wach a film?
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

23rd March 2006, 03:51 PM	#72
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,280	People, please. Let's all just agree that all cultures suck, as do all religions including the lack of religion. Why? Because cultures and religions are invented by people, and all people suck.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

23rd March 2006, 04:16 PM	#73
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,466	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc Wow, way to dodge. Meadmaker, will you admit that there's a clear different between compelling children to sing songs, and asking children to passively wach a film? ID, if someone disagrees about what is important, that doesn't constitute a dodge. But, to your question. Yes, I agree there's a difference. And the difference is irrelevant to what I was saying. If you think it's just horrible that someone might be asked to sing a Christmas carol, then you really need to adjust your priorities. It's not so bad. Try it. Learn the tune to "Greensleeves" and substitute "What Child is This". You will find that at the end of the song, you do not have a sudden urge to teach Intelligent Design. How about a compromise? They can sing Christmas songs, but only if they are in a different language. Tonight's program will be "Stiehle Nacht", "Adeste Fidelis", and "Mi Chamokah". (That last one isn't a Christmas song, or a holiday song of any sort, but no one in Bennett Colorado will know what it is, and they will think "Chamokah" is "Chanukah", and they are being multicultural.)
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

23rd March 2006, 05:10 PM	#74
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,709	Originally Posted by Meadmaker If you think it's just horrible that someone might be asked to sing a Christmas carol, then you really need to adjust your priorities. It's not so bad. Try it. Learn the tune to "Greensleeves" and substitute "What Child is This". You will find that at the end of the song, you do not have a sudden urge to teach Intelligent Design. In other words, it's ok to force schoolchildren to worship your god, meaningfully or not, because it's "not so bad"? Sorry, no.
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23rd March 2006, 05:33 PM	#75
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by Meadmaker How about a compromise? They can sing Christmas songs, but only if they are in a different language. Tonight's program will be "Stiehle Nacht", "Adeste Fidelis", and "Mi Chamokah". (That last one isn't a Christmas song, or a holiday song of any sort, but no one in Bennett Colorado will know what it is, and they will think "Chamokah" is "Chanukah", and they are being multicultural.) Hey, if that Jew Felix Mendelssohn could write Hark! The Herald Angels Sing and not fall over and die from a fit of apoplexy, I think an eight-year-old kid whose parents are atheists can stand to sing Silent Night or Stille Nacht or whatever and the world will continue to spin on its axis.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.