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Old 25th March 2006, 06:47 AM   #1
Ripley Twenty-Nine
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Kevin Trudeau: Time To Fight Back

From this thread.

It seems that there are a few people on the forum that have been personally affected (Negatively of course) by Kevin Trudeau and his book. I think it's time that something was done about it.

Let's get some ideas on starting up a website dealing with exposing Kevin Trudeau. I have been a Web programmer for about 10 years, so I would definately be willing to put some time into development. I could also do some content; Unfortunately my father even has a subscription to Kevin Trudeau's website which I could get some information from.

I think some important points to keep in mind for such a site would be:
1) Keep it as anonymous as possible. This would mean not discussing domain names on this board, and not registering the domain name as someone who would be traceable.
2) Stick to the facts. However tempting it would be to get emotional about the situation, it would definately hurt the position.
3) Get the website a very high ranking in Web search results.

Any ideas? Is it feasible, or would we be too worried about the army of lawyers?

I know the idea has been discussed for Mr. Lancaster's new site, but the way I see it, the more the merrier.
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Old 25th March 2006, 07:07 AM   #2
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Are there any existing websites attempting to accomplish the same? Don't want to reinvent the wheel if we can lend our efforts to someone that has a headstart.
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Old 25th March 2006, 08:11 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
Are there any existing websites attempting to accomplish the same? Don't want to reinvent the wheel if we can lend our efforts to someone that has a headstart.

For starters, www.skepdic.com
has a section about him.

Also: www.quackwatch.org

The American Council on Science and Medicine also has a blurb about him:

http://www.acsh.org/factsfears/newsI...ews_detail.asp


Of course, the idea is to collect as much information on him as possible, and condense it all into one comprehensive website. I think these links should give you a good headstart. Other than than, count me in, and good luck!
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Old 25th March 2006, 08:29 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
Are there any existing websites attempting to accomplish the same? Don't want to reinvent the wheel if we can lend our efforts to someone that has a headstart.
Oh, oh, oh....

Check out http://www.stopkaz.com/

It was discussed at TAM4 by the creator who also wrote about his efforts for Randi to use in his commentary, Hal Introduces Robert Lancaster, Stopping Kaz.

Also there is a thread discussing the next direction Lancaster should go in. Touch base with him and at the very least get ideas and link to each others site. I'll help in anyway I can.
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Old 25th March 2006, 08:35 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Ripley Twenty-Nine View Post
I know the idea has been discussed for Mr. Lancaster's new site, but the way I see it, the more the merrier.
Duh, it would be helpful if I would read the entire post before responding.
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Old 25th March 2006, 08:44 AM   #6
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I think you need a specific site targeted solely at Trudeau. If you need someone who can't be intimidated by litigation to represent the site I can easily do that.
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Old 25th March 2006, 08:55 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Ripley Twenty-Nine View Post
From
1) Keep it as anonymous as possible. This would mean not discussing domain names on this board, and not registering the domain name as someone who would be traceable.
2) Stick to the facts. However tempting it would be to get emotional about the situation, it would definately hurt the position.
3) Get the website a very high ranking in Web search results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Trudeau

However googleing shows that there is already no shortage of negative sites out there.
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Old 25th March 2006, 09:13 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Trudeau

However googleing shows that there is already no shortage of negative sites out there.
Oh please, like they could do a better job than us schmos at JREF.
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Old 25th March 2006, 09:37 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Oh please, like they could do a better job than us schmos at JREF.
Most of them will already have large amounts of pagerank.
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Old 25th March 2006, 09:40 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
I think you need a specific site targeted solely at Trudeau.
Agreed.
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Old 25th March 2006, 10:00 AM   #11
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What's the legality of such a site? Presumably, any website that states the facts cannot be stopped by his lawyers? Any legal eagles here who know what the dangers might be? Kaz didn't sue RSL, but she doesn't have Kev's money...
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Old 25th March 2006, 10:05 AM   #12
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Hmmmm... The Wikipedia article is very comprehensive. Lots of good information in there, though perhaps not as 'neutral' sounding as what is required.

I just wish that there was easily accessible information that people like my father could find while doing a search that does not sound as though it was written by 'them'.
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Old 25th March 2006, 10:09 AM   #13
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Get a lawyer first.
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Old 25th March 2006, 10:16 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Ripley Twenty-Nine View Post
Hmmmm... The Wikipedia article is very comprehensive. Lots of good information in there, though perhaps not as 'neutral' sounding as what is required.

I just wish that there was easily accessible information that people like my father could find while doing a search that does not sound as though it was written by 'them'.
Top hit on google is quackwatch followed by the ftc ruleing followed by another barret site. The results couldn't be much more nedative for Trudeau.
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Old 25th March 2006, 10:19 AM   #15
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I'm guessing there's already pleanty of websites exposing this guy for the fraud that he is but I'm not sure. Good luck with that.
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Old 25th March 2006, 10:37 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by JM85 View Post
I'm guessing there's already pleanty of websites exposing this guy for the fraud that he is but I'm not sure.
What's the point of your post then?
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Old 25th March 2006, 11:13 AM   #17
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That if there's already websites pertaining to the deception of Kevin Trudeau then he could probably avoid legal trouble since he hasn't taken legal action against any of them. But after a google search I can't find any; just articles that are calling him a fraud. Maybe some were shut down.
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Old 25th March 2006, 12:27 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by JM85 View Post
That if there's already websites pertaining to the deception of Kevin Trudeau then he could probably avoid legal trouble since he hasn't taken legal action against any of them. But after a google search I can't find any; just articles that are calling him a fraud. Maybe some were shut down.
Ah, I getcha. We need some evidence for that though, we could say "maybe" to a whole bunch of things otherwise.
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Old 25th March 2006, 06:05 PM   #19
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Trudeau Invasion

Speaking of Mr. Trudeau, I happen to find myself in a bit of a dilemma.
My high school American Government A.P. class recently listened to a speaker in are high school library. As my class and I were departing, I happened to glance over towards the bookcases labeled "new books" and to my amazement and horror I saw Trudeau's horrid piece of fiction, Natural Cures "They" Don't Want You To Know About resting comfortably on the top shelf!

Since this is one of the reasons I joined this forum, I was wondering how I might go about getting this piece of garbage removed from a library I had previously held in high regard.

Last edited by SPQR; 25th March 2006 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 25th March 2006, 06:08 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by SPQR View Post
Speaking of Mr. Trudeau, I happen to find myself in a bit of a dilemma.
My high school American Government A.P. class recently listened to a speaker in are high school library. As my class and I were departing, I happened to glance over towards the bookcases labeled "new books" and to my amazement and horror I saw Trudeau's horrid piece of fiction, Natural Cures "They" Don't Want You To Know About resting comfortably on the top shelf!

Since this is one of the reasons I joined this forum, I was wondering how I might go about getting this piece of garbage removed from a library I had previously held in high regard.
You could try writing to the library with some choice quotes about the reality of Trudeau's claims, and some links to, say, his Wikipedia entry, as it's not obviously 'anti', but is truthful.

Would you consider not posting in large font? It makes your post very hard to read as it's so 'in your face', it would be a shame for a good post to go unread because of something like that
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Old 25th March 2006, 06:19 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by tkingdoll View Post
You could try writing to the library with some choice quotes about the reality of Trudeau's claims, and some links to, say, his Wikipedia entry, as it's not obviously 'anti', but is truthful.

Would you consider not posting in large font? It makes your post very hard to read as it's so 'in your face', it would be a shame for a good post to go unread because of something like that
Thank you very much tkingdoll,your advice is greatly appreciated.

I apologize for my unwarranted use of a large font, I am a new postee to the JREF Forum and being such I am not fully aware of the etiquette.
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Old 25th March 2006, 06:28 PM   #22
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I seriously doubt KT is going to sue anybody. The last thing he wants is to be in court... about anything! So I wouldn't worry about having lawyers sicced on you. Anyway, just stick to the facts and there's nothing he can do to shut you down anyway.

The thing is, tho, this guy doesn't care if people bash him. That's crucial to keep in mind if you're seriously interested in doing something about him. Also be aware that the FDA et al are already very aware of Mr. Trudeau.

His market is mostly off the Web anyway. He sells by infomercials, word of mouth, direct mail, and brick-and-mortar, as well as some Amazon. And unlike Kaz, he doesn't operate under the radar, and he doesn't rely on gullible people to book appearances for him in order to make his money, so the same strategy that succeeded w/ her probably won't damage him that much.

Keep in mind, too, that the bulk of his customers buy into the theory that the establishment is out to fool them. They see persecution as verification.

Nice trick, huh?

So exposing him is of limited value. That's not to say it's of no value, tho. Might help keep a few folks from falling into the trap. But as has been mentioned, anyone doing even a half-serious search on KT will find plenty of damning data already out there.
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Old 25th March 2006, 06:33 PM   #23
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Color me dead wrong

The guy's got more acorns than I thought. Check out Kevin Fights Back, especially his suit against the FTC.
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Old 25th March 2006, 07:51 PM   #24
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Yikes!

This tells us:

1) KT does have lawyers and he might not be afraid of using them. (depending)

2) His "Kevinfightsback" site has "happy" testimonials. My first thought was, maybe a couple are genuine, but lots of them could easily be faked. So...what does that do to the idea of getting REAL testimonials?


Has anyone actually READ the whole book? Is there anything in there that can be disproven? (I'm really curious now to see what it says, but I'd really hate to shell out real money for it...)
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Old 25th March 2006, 08:08 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Smart_Cookie View Post
Has anyone actually READ the whole book? Is there anything in there that can be disproven?
Actually, that might be the most promising avenue of legal challenge to toss his butt in jail again.

The problem w/ the book even for people who buy into his theories is that the book itself is one big "teaser" advertisement. To get all the info (or so the book says) you need to get on his Web site. And, of course, that'll cost ya.

Check out this complaint at the Rip-Off Report. It pretty much sums it up. That's why I called it a "circle game" in the other thread. (I think the "rebuttal" post is a plant, btw.)

Some angry buyers are talking class action now. And if his infomercials don't accurately describe the product, he may face some time again, and a loss of revenue from the book. That would be mighty satisfyin'.
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Old 25th March 2006, 09:15 PM   #26
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A New KT Scam!

Check this out: http://www.thewhistleblower.com/

KT poses as whistleblower!

It's brilliant, in an evil way. He's doing in health scams what Karl Rove has done -- with unparalleled success -- in politics: Whatever you're doing underhanded, accuse the other guy of doing it first, and come out swinging with both fists.

You want to perpetuate a health scam? Accuse the establishment of doing so. Worried you might get dragged into court by the FTC? Take them to court. Class action suit looming? File one.

Originally Posted by thewhistleblower.com
As an organization, we are going to file class action law suits against the corporations and the individual people that are perpetrating this fraud against the public.
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Old 26th March 2006, 03:14 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by SPQR View Post
Thank you very much tkingdoll,your advice is greatly appreciated.

I apologize for my unwarranted use of a large font, I am a new postee to the JREF Forum and being such I am not fully aware of the etiquette.
Hey, no worries. Welcome to the forum!
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Old 26th March 2006, 10:43 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by SPQR View Post
Speaking of Mr. Trudeau, I happen to find myself in a bit of a dilemma.
My high school American Government A.P. class recently listened to a speaker in are high school library. As my class and I were departing, I happened to glance over towards the bookcases labeled "new books" and to my amazement and horror I saw Trudeau's horrid piece of fiction, Natural Cures "They" Don't Want You To Know About resting comfortably on the top shelf!

Since this is one of the reasons I joined this forum, I was wondering how I might go about getting this piece of garbage removed from a library I had previously held in high regard.
As much as I despise Trudeau and others like him, I'm hesitant to support censorship. Perhaps you can suggest to the librarian to order more enlightening material that encourages critical thinking, to be placed next to Trudeau, or at least a suggested reading list.
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Old 26th March 2006, 11:32 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by elaine View Post
As much as I despise Trudeau and others like him, I'm hesitant to support censorship. Perhaps you can suggest to the librarian to order more enlightening material that encourages critical thinking, to be placed next to Trudeau, or at least a suggested reading list.
Refusing to stock books that peddle misinformation about health as part of a money-making scam -- that's not censorship, that's being responsible. Libraries can't stock everything. They must make choices. This book is highly qualified to be omitted from the stacks.
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Old 26th March 2006, 11:58 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Piggy View Post
Refusing to stock books that peddle misinformation about health as part of a money-making scam -- that's not censorship, that's being responsible. Libraries can't stock everything. They must make choices. This book is highly qualified to be omitted from the stacks.

Good point, but don't libraries stock books, movies, etc. based on requests and, what the users will check out? I finally decided to check out this piece of crap, well, because I haven't actually read it, and am finding it hard to argue against a book I haven't read. Our local library has 20 copies, and I'm 196th on the list. I doubt the book would be removed, just because a few people point out that it's fraudulent.
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Old 26th March 2006, 02:08 PM   #31
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Or convince the librarian to file it under Fiction instead.
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Old 26th March 2006, 03:05 PM   #32
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The best URL, http://www.stopkevintrudeau.com, has been taken, but alas has not been updated. Only the main page has any decent info (four small paragraphs). Maybe the webmaster could be contacted, and this site can realize its potential.
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Old 26th March 2006, 05:34 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by elaine View Post
Good point, but don't libraries stock books, movies, etc. based on requests and, what the users will check out? I finally decided to check out this piece of crap, well, because I haven't actually read it, and am finding it hard to argue against a book I haven't read. Our local library has 20 copies, and I'm 196th on the list. I doubt the book would be removed, just because a few people point out that it's fraudulent.
I would totally accept that except for the fact that students do not have to pay to check books out. The only reason I can think of for this blunder is that the book is realtively new. The librarian may not even know who Trudeau is.
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Old 26th March 2006, 05:43 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by SPQR View Post
I would totally accept that except for the fact that students do not have to pay to check books out. The only reason I can think of for this blunder is that the book is realtively new. The librarian may not even know who Trudeau is.
You could always "remove" it. I'm not suggesting outright theft. Check it out. Lose it, forget about it, whatever. Pay for it if you have to. I was cool with my school librarian so she let me slide on a cheap book I lost. I don't think Trudeau's book is cheap though.

Someone suggested this already. But try to get it labeled fiction instead.

Or, do what I did in highschool. On books I disagreed with I inserted my own pamphlets into them and let whoever checked it out discover them. Of course, some people would throw out the pamphlets but if you actually convinced someone to think critically they might not.

I also made up my own books and put them in the school library. Somewhere there is a second edition* of "Mrs. Norman's Enchanted Classroom". A wonderful encyclopedia of all the fantastical creatures that inhabited my Honors English class.

* I have the first edition. =P
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Old 26th March 2006, 06:58 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
Most of them will already have large amounts of pagerank.
I was hoping "schmos" (schmuck) would give away the fact that I had my tounge firmly planted in cheeck. Sorry.
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Old 26th March 2006, 07:02 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by elaine View Post
As much as I despise Trudeau and others like him, I'm hesitant to support censorship. Perhaps you can suggest to the librarian to order more enlightening material that encourages critical thinking, to be placed next to Trudeau, or at least a suggested reading list.
Yeah, that's a tough one. And of course that is what Kevin is exploiting. Still, his advice hurts people. I'm willing to defend an awful lot of speech. I even went out on a limb defending some a-hole making disparaging remarks about Randi. But I won't complain if the book gets pulled.
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Old 26th March 2006, 07:30 PM   #37
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If not "fiction" you could probably get them to classify it under "humor"

And I agree with the not-anonymous approach. The most successful and renowned anti-fraud websites are from people that say exactly who they are and post facts that will stand up in court. XENU.NET comes to mind... proving that scientologists' lawyers are not omnipotent and invincible.
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Old 26th March 2006, 08:22 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Smart_Cookie View Post
Yikes!

This tells us:

1) KT does have lawyers and he might not be afraid of using them. (depending)

2) His "Kevinfightsback" site has "happy" testimonials. My first thought was, maybe a couple are genuine, but lots of them could easily be faked. So...what does that do to the idea of getting REAL testimonials?


Has anyone actually READ the whole book? Is there anything in there that can be disproven? (I'm really curious now to see what it says, but I'd really hate to shell out real money for it...)

First and foremost, with regards to his customers' "happy testimonies," they mean about as much to me as a festering bowl of dog snot. Testimonial evidence in and of itself amounts to nothing more than a collection of highly subjective and anecdotal experiences, based on an individual's personal beliefs and expectations. For this reason alone, in the realms of genuine scientific investigation and critical thought, they have zero reliability with regard to measuring the accuracy and veracity of Mr. Trudueu's claims ---or ANY claims, for that matter.

For example, just because one person in your neighborhood "claimed" to have seen an alien spaceship, based on his or her own personal visual experience alone (mind you, with absolutey NO video taped or any other kind of substantiating physical evidence) doesn't necessarily mean that he or she did in fact "see" an alien spaceship. And even if more people from your
neighborhood saw the same thing in the sky at the same time, the increase in numbers alone doesn't necessarily make it all the more credible. Look at how many kids believe in Santa Clause flying through the sky with his reindeer.

For further reading on this topic, check out this website:
http://www.skepdic.com/testimon.html

And secondly, as a rationally sound and logically minded critical thinker, YOU CAN'T CRITICIZE WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW, plain and simple! Otherwise, your arguments become invalid and unsound, and fall into either the "straw man" and/or "ad hominem" fallacy categories.

Sorry for raising my voice, but I know exaclty how you feel. Try borrowing it from your local library, or if you have access to a Barnes and Noble or Border's Bookstore nearby, take a trip, buy yourself a cup of coffee and peruse through it at your leisure in the cafe section. But, of course, please don't piss your hard earned money away on this dufus.

As brutally agonizing of a colassol time waster as it was, for objectivity's sake, this is exactly what I did. Here's what I've found:

In his latest updated edition, surprisingly, he DOES indeed share some "natural cures" in his book for various ailments. Whether or not they actually do indeed work is a whole other story, but here's what cracked me up: When I turned to the "cancer" section, you want to know what he said? "If you have cancer, you need to see a qualified medical professional."

On the one hand, you've got to give him credit. This has got to be perhaps the most intelligent and responsible thing I've ever heard him say, but by the same token, does absolutely NOTHING to solidify his credibility as a "medical expert." To say something like that in a book that "claims" to have "natural cures" makes about as much sense like me writing a book on auto repair (and I have zero experience as an auto technician) that has a transmission repair section which simply states: "If you're having transmission trouble, you need to see a qualified transmission specialist."

Boy, would I be pissed to blow away $22.95 (plus 6% NJ sales tax) for some moron's book, hoping that he would share with me a natural cure for my testicular cancer, only to tell me I need to see a cancer specialist for that! Huh! The sales lady behind the counter could've told me that FOR FREE!
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Old 27th March 2006, 05:59 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by SPQR View Post
I would totally accept that except for the fact that students do not have to pay to check books out. The only reason I can think of for this blunder is that the book is realtively new. The librarian may not even know who Trudeau is.

Or worse, the librarian does know and is a fan. Scary
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Old 27th March 2006, 08:15 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by tommyz View Post
First and foremost, with regards to his customers' "happy testimonies," they mean about as much to me as a festering bowl of dog snot. Testimonial evidence in and of itself amounts to nothing more than a collection of highly subjective and anecdotal experiences, based on an individual's personal beliefs and expectations. For this reason alone, in the realms of genuine scientific investigation and critical thought, they have zero reliability with regard to measuring the accuracy and veracity of Mr. Trudueu's claims ---or ANY claims, for that matter.
As explanation for my line of reasoning: I came across the KT thread. It's obvious many here would like to do what we can to stop and expose this complete loser.

The idea of a web-site refuting him has been raised. I was trying to think of what could be put on that site that would have the most impact. It occured to me (of course) to go through the book and refute whatever is bogus in there. From a rational, scientific, "this is why it doesn't work" basis.

However, my concern with that was - the people who are really buying into his "cr@p" might not pay attention to that line of reasoning. For the same reason the deeply religious creationists don't pay attention when someone starts discussing evolution. They simply refuse to listen.

So...my next idea was to solicit from real people their stories of how they were ripped off with his material, that it doesn't work, that it may actually have harmed them or someone they care about. By sheer VOLUME, I was hoping for something that the large, influential media couldn't ignore. Give KT enough bad, bad press - maybe he'd be forced to finally give up and go away.

But yes, there's the inherent problem with real stories (testimonials). They'd also be easy to dismiss as faked, or dishonest.

So....any other ideas about how to discredit this guy?
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