Religious Data

SkepticalScience · 26th March 2006, 09:55 AM

I'm looking for the following pieces of data, and was hoping someone could point me to the right spot.

1. I want to know the number of religions that cite jesus in one way or another v.s. the total number of religions there are/were.

2. I want to know if there are lower rates of violence in christianity as opposed to other religions.

These two data points will help me persuade a friend who believes that their flavor of x-ianity is "true" because jesus is apparently a common thread in most religions, and that x-ianity has MUCH lower rates of violence than any other religion.

Me thinks data will show otherwise.

Cosmo · 26th March 2006, 10:11 AM

This Wikipedia page might help.

wollery · 26th March 2006, 10:37 AM

To my knowledge Jesus is only cited in the various brands of christianity, islam and an obscure sect of judaism known as Jews for Jesus. There may be one or two more minor religions which cite him.

Ask if he's ever heard of a Jain Buddhist committing murder.

Complexity · 26th March 2006, 10:54 AM

Jesus is referenced in the scriptures of the Baha'i Faith and, I believe, in the scriptures of the Bab'i Faith.

Let's not forget the Mormons...

meg · 26th March 2006, 11:27 AM

http://www.buffaloatheists.com/artic...-in-prison.htm

Shows break down of religious affiliations of federal prison inmates. Shows over 80% espousing some form of christianity.

http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/doc/r...rts/112004.pdf

Has a table in it showing the religious affiliations of Mass. inmates. Over 70% state some form of christianity.

Since this report also states that over 60% of the inmates were jailed for violent crime, you could probably extrapolate some numbers/percentages of violent christians from that.

Hope this helps,
Meg

meg · 26th March 2006, 01:10 PM

Just out of curiosity, I started googling serial killers and their religions. Here's what I found this last 1/2 hr. It might be interesting sometime to look up all the known serial killers and see if there are any religious patterns.

Jeffrey Dahmer - Church of Christ
Dayton Leroy Rogers - Seventh Day Adventist
Myra Hindley - Roman Catholic
Ted Bundy - Morman, converted to Hinduism in prison
John Wayne Gacy - Roman Catholic
David Berkowitz - Born Again Christian
Bob Berdella - Catholic
Robert Lee Yates - Seventh Day Adventist
Dennis Rader (BTK strangler) - Lutheran - president of the church council

Xen · 26th March 2006, 02:20 PM

It is doubtful that enough information exists for you to be able to reach any scientifically valid conclusions about the relationship between religion and violence.

Any statistics that do exist could probably be tortured to say whatever you want them to say.

Published statistics would not take into account unreported domestic violence like "suffer the little children" and "spoil the rod and spare the child" style religiously inspired child-beatings.

And lower violence rates do not necessarily indicate a better religion. They may only indicate paralyzation through religious lobotomization.

Your best bet would be to make something up. If your friend is a genuine believer, then he might just believe whatever you tell him.

ceo_esq · 27th March 2006, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Xen

Published statistics would not take into account unreported domestic violence like "suffer the little children" and "spoil the rod and spare the child" style religiously inspired child-beatings.

I assume you're alluding to Mark 10:14, which in the KJV reads "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God."

(In the more modern NIV, it reads "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.")

How likely is this to inspire child-beating?

(Also... "spoil the rod"?)

jjramsey · 27th March 2006, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Xen

Your best bet would be to make something up. If your friend is a genuine believer, then he might just believe whatever you tell him.

Let me put this as politely as I can. That is an execrably dishonest piece of, ahem, advice you gave, and if SkepticalScience were to take that advice, he'd be no better than a creationist.

If you have that kind of casual attitude towards the truth, what are you doing on a skeptics' forum? Skeptics are supposed to value the truth.

kmortis · 27th March 2006, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by jjramsey

Let me put this as politely as I can. That is an execrably dishonest piece of, ahem, advice you gave, and if SkepticalScience were to take that advice, he'd be no better than a creationist.

If you have that kind of casual attitude towards the truth, what are you doing on a skeptics' forum? Skeptics are supposed to value the truth.

Yeah, I have to side with JJRamsey here, and believe me that doesn't happen all too often.

Admit that it's a fools errand, if you'd like, but don't make s

t up. It makes you look bad, and could hurt you in the long run.

Coralius · 27th March 2006, 06:15 PM

You may be looking for something like this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...798944,00.html

http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html

The first link is an article that summarizes the study found at the second link. The second one is the full paper. It shows a rise in "social ills" for more religious nations. It also defines "social ills" pretty well.

jjramsey · 27th March 2006, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by Coralius

You may be looking for something like this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...798944,00.html

http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html

The first link is an article that summarizes the study found at the second link. The second one is the full paper. It shows a rise in "social ills" for more religious nations. It also defines "social ills" pretty well.

This is an interesting, and perhaps telling, paragraph from the paper:

Quote:

Regression analyses were not executed because of the high variability of degree of correlation, because potential causal factors for rates of societal function are complex, and because it is not the purpose of this initial study to definitively demonstrate a causal link between religion and social conditions. Nor were multivariate analyses used because they risk manipulating the data to produce errant or desired results, and because the fairly consistent characteristics of the sample automatically minimizes the need to correct for external multiple factors (see further discussion below). Therefore correlations of raw data are used for this initial examination.

Judging by the scatter in the figures, the correlation coefficients that would be found if one did do a regression analysis would probably be pretty low. If you look at the figures and you take out the data point for the United States, the correlations are weak, if there at all. Basically then, it is questionable whether one is comparing the effect of religion or the effect of U.S. culture in general vs. European culture. The study is probably useful for indicating that religion does not necessarily have a beneficial effect, but I'd be leery of using it as evidence against religion.

Meadmaker · 27th March 2006, 06:48 PM

I don't know how you count the "number of religions", so the way that the question is phrased will make an answer difficult. However, off the top of my head, I can think of a few "major" religions, meaning ones that I'm pretty sure have at least 10 million adherents.

Christianity
Islam
Buddhism
Confucianism
Taoism
Shinto
Judaism (barely. It doesn't really count as a "major" religion by population, but it gets grandfathered in because of its offshoots, Christianity and Islam)
Hinduism
Jainism
Sikhism (Those last two might be variations of Hindu. I'm not sure)

Then you have lots of variations of animism/tribal religions still practiced in Africa, the South Pacific, and by Native Americans.

Put all those together, and you would cover pretty much everyone. Of those, Christianity and Islam mention Christ.

Coralius · 27th March 2006, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by jjramsey

The study is probably useful for indicating that religion does not necessarily have a beneficial effect, but I'd be leery of using it as evidence against religion.

Isn't this what he was wanting, though? Something to show that high proportions of religious people doesn't necessarily make a country better?

Coralius · 27th March 2006, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Of those, Christianity and Islam mention Christ.

Doesn't Hinduism recognize Christ as a holy man/prohpet type, like the Baha'i?

Meadmaker · 27th March 2006, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Coralius

Doesn't Hinduism recognize Christ as a holy man/prohpet type, like the Baha'i?

I don't know much about Hindus, so what I'm about to say reflects about 20 minutes of conversation with a Hindu coworker. Take it for what it's worth, which is not much.

He tells me that the Jains tend to recognize other religious figures as incarnations of the deity. I was asking specifically about the Buddha when we discussed it, and he said that Jains would revere the Buddha, along with other religious figures like Jesus, but that mainstream Hindus would not.

If Hindus had any sort of references to Jesus it would be of the sort that would say that every widely known holy man must be a sort of prophet. So, they might say that Jesus was a holy man, and they might say Buddha was, and Joseph Smith, and every other religious figure, since ultimately, there's only one God anyway, so every religious figure is obviously worshipping the same god.

stamenflicker · 28th March 2006, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by meg

Just out of curiosity, I started googling serial killers and their religions. Here's what I found this last 1/2 hr. It might be interesting sometime to look up all the known serial killers and see if there are any religious patterns.

Jeffrey Dahmer - Church of Christ
Dayton Leroy Rogers - Seventh Day Adventist
Myra Hindley - Roman Catholic
Ted Bundy - Morman, converted to Hinduism in prison
John Wayne Gacy - Roman Catholic
David Berkowitz - Born Again Christian
Bob Berdella - Catholic
Robert Lee Yates - Seventh Day Adventist
Dennis Rader (BTK strangler) - Lutheran - president of the church council

I'm pretty sure Berkowitz became Christian in prison after the murders. The real problem with using any sort of data like this is that most Americans claim Christianity as the their religion, so you can pick out any number category and expect a pretty high percentage.

The problem with this thread is simply the issue of claiming Christianity. It's an ideology that's become so watered down-- it's like me being able to claim I am a humanitarian. I may think I hold humanitarian values, but let's face it, I've not protested or demonstrated for human rights anyplace that I can remember, I haven't written the President concerning the killings in Darfur. I've not petitioned my State penal institutions for fair treatment of prisoners, etc. etc. So I am?

So it's sort of pointless in many ways.

meg · 28th March 2006, 05:54 AM

I agree that the links and info I found can't really be used as proof of anything. However, what the OP said was that this was an argument with a friend who said : "that x-ianity has MUCH lower rates of violence than any other religion."

My point with showing prisoner religious affiliations and the christian affiliations of some of our most notorious murderers was simply to cast some doubt on that statement. If it was true that christianity has MUCH lower rates of violence than other religions, I would *think* that you would see generally a lower rate of christianity in prisoners, or that most serial killers would not be christians. I think its enough to be able to show that and then say, "If you have some evidence of christianity having MUCH lower rates of violence than any other religion, show it. Prove it."

Quote:

stamenflicker:"The problem with this thread is simply the issue of claiming Christianity. It's an ideology that's become so watered down--"

I agree. However what that makes me think is that it is up to the claimer to prove his statements. If he actually looks, he will also see that it's an almost impossible claim to prove, - so it should not be stated as fact.

It's just an opinion; a wish, really, with no evidence to back it up.

Meg

burrahobbit · 28th March 2006, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Coralius

Doesn't Hinduism recognize Christ as a holy man/prohpet type, like the Baha'i?

No. Hinduism, being much older than Christianity, makes no mention of Christ. It has coopted the Buddha (and the Jain Mahavira) since they happened to be Hindu and Buddhism and Jainism were competing with Brahmanic Hinduism for the same souls.

The Baha'i faith mentions both Christ and Mohammed since it is an offshoot of Islam.

burrahobbit · 28th March 2006, 09:39 AM

Individual Hindus may think that Christ had some nice ideas but the religion as a whole pretty much ignores the bible.

As Gandhi felt " The sermon on the mount is great but the rest of the bible s****"

(Heavily paraphrased

)

LordoftheLeftHand · 28th March 2006, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by SkepticalScience

1. I want to know the number of religions that cite jesus in one way or another v.s. the total number of religions there are/were.

2. I want to know if there are lower rates of violence in christianity as opposed to other religions.

1. You might want to determine what you consider citing Jesus. I suggest that you use any religion that refers to itself as Christian.

2. How are you going to define violence? Sounds easy at first, but in practice it can be difficult.

Good Luck,
LLH

the_bgma · 28th March 2006, 12:56 PM

The best site I've found for religious data is:

www . adherents . com

Awesome bank of info there!

******************************************
The Bible of the Good and Moral Atheist

stamenflicker · 28th March 2006, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by meg

I agree that the links and info I found can't really be used as proof of anything. However, what the OP said was that this was an argument with a friend who said : "that x-ianity has MUCH lower rates of violence than any other religion."

Well I think the onus of proof then lies on him for making the claim. This might help:

TEN WORST COUNTRIES FOR MURDER, LATE-1990s COUNTRY PER 100,000
(1) Columbia 84.4
(2) El Salvador 50.2
(3) Puerto Rico 41.8
(4) Brazil 32.5
(5) Albania 28.2
(6) Venezuela 25.0
(7) Russian Federation 18.0
(8) Ecuador 15.9
(9) Mexico 15.3
(10) Panama 14.4

TEN SAFEST COUNTRIES FOR MURDER, LATE-1990s COUNTRY PER MILLION
(1) Slovenia 0.7
(2) Austria 0.9
(3) Sweden 1.8
(4) Switzerland 2.3
(5) Israel 2.3
(6) Hong Kong 2.4
(7) Norway 2.5
(8) Ireland 2.8
(9) Finland 3.7
(10) Singapore 4.3

stats come from here, I think it is mostly 2002 data according to the author:

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html

The Westernized countries seem to be fairing better on the average, with your primary cocaine countries and fascist states having the worse. I doubt your friend can reliably demonstrate that Christianity has any bearing on murder rates. The US was 6.8, considerably lower than these other countries, but also worse off than what he might define as the "secularized" European countries.

the_bgma · 29th March 2006, 07:50 PM

Yes, I've seen data (help someone with the links?) that rank countries on a whole bunch of different measures. Atheist countries tend to have high education and low crime.

We do have to recognize the communist exceptions, although I have heard it described as "organic" Atheism (i.e. natural due to modern cultural) vs. "enforced" Atheism such as in China and the USSR.

********************************************
The Bible of the Good and Moral Atheist

CFLarsen · 29th March 2006, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by stamenflicker

Well I think the onus of proof then lies on him for making the claim. This might help:

TEN WORST COUNTRIES FOR MURDER, LATE-1990s COUNTRY PER 100,000
(1) Columbia 84.4
(2) El Salvador 50.2
(3) Puerto Rico 41.8
(4) Brazil 32.5
(5) Albania 28.2
(6) Venezuela 25.0
(7) Russian Federation 18.0
(8) Ecuador 15.9
(9) Mexico 15.3
(10) Panama 14.4

TEN SAFEST COUNTRIES FOR MURDER, LATE-1990s COUNTRY PER MILLION
(1) Slovenia 0.7
(2) Austria 0.9
(3) Sweden 1.8
(4) Switzerland 2.3
(5) Israel 2.3
(6) Hong Kong 2.4
(7) Norway 2.5
(8) Ireland 2.8
(9) Finland 3.7
(10) Singapore 4.3

stats come from here, I think it is mostly 2002 data according to the author:

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html

Hmmm...why does he change unit in the middle of everything? The worst countries are per 100,000, but the safest are per 1,000,000.

How long a timeframe are we talking about here? "Late-1990s" cover how long, exactly?

26th March 2006, 09:55 AM	#1
SkepticalScience Thinker Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 225	Religious Data I'm looking for the following pieces of data, and was hoping someone could point me to the right spot. 1. I want to know the number of religions that cite jesus in one way or another v.s. the total number of religions there are/were. 2. I want to know if there are lower rates of violence in christianity as opposed to other religions. These two data points will help me persuade a friend who believes that their flavor of x-ianity is "true" because jesus is apparently a common thread in most religions, and that x-ianity has MUCH lower rates of violence than any other religion. Me thinks data will show otherwise.
SkepticalScience Thinker Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 225

26th March 2006, 10:37 AM	#3
wollery Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Land of Eternal Hope Posts: 10,319	To my knowledge Jesus is only cited in the various brands of christianity, islam and an obscure sect of judaism known as Jews for Jesus. There may be one or two more minor religions which cite him. Ask if he's ever heard of a Jain Buddhist committing murder.
	__________________ "You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin

26th March 2006, 10:54 AM	#4
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Jesus is referenced in the scriptures of the Baha'i Faith and, I believe, in the scriptures of the Bab'i Faith. Let's not forget the Mormons...
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

26th March 2006, 11:27 AM	#5
meg psychic reader TLA Winner Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kansas USA Posts: 1,404	http://www.buffaloatheists.com/artic...-in-prison.htm Shows break down of religious affiliations of federal prison inmates. Shows over 80% espousing some form of christianity. http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/doc/r...rts/112004.pdf Has a table in it showing the religious affiliations of Mass. inmates. Over 70% state some form of christianity. Since this report also states that over 60% of the inmates were jailed for violent crime, you could probably extrapolate some numbers/percentages of violent christians from that. Hope this helps, Meg
	__________________ "If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he next comes to drinking and sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas DeQuincey

26th March 2006, 01:10 PM	#6
meg psychic reader TLA Winner Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kansas USA Posts: 1,404	Just out of curiosity, I started googling serial killers and their religions. Here's what I found this last 1/2 hr. It might be interesting sometime to look up all the known serial killers and see if there are any religious patterns. Jeffrey Dahmer - Church of Christ Dayton Leroy Rogers - Seventh Day Adventist Myra Hindley - Roman Catholic Ted Bundy - Morman, converted to Hinduism in prison John Wayne Gacy - Roman Catholic David Berkowitz - Born Again Christian Bob Berdella - Catholic Robert Lee Yates - Seventh Day Adventist Dennis Rader (BTK strangler) - Lutheran - president of the church council
	__________________ "If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he next comes to drinking and sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas DeQuincey

26th March 2006, 10:11 AM	#2
Cosmo Radioactive Rationalist Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 1,169	This Wikipedia page might help.

26th March 2006, 02:20 PM	#7
Xen New Blood Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2	It is doubtful that enough information exists for you to be able to reach any scientifically valid conclusions about the relationship between religion and violence. Any statistics that do exist could probably be tortured to say whatever you want them to say. Published statistics would not take into account unreported domestic violence like "suffer the little children" and "spoil the rod and spare the child" style religiously inspired child-beatings. And lower violence rates do not necessarily indicate a better religion. They may only indicate paralyzation through religious lobotomization. Your best bet would be to make something up. If your friend is a genuine believer, then he might just believe whatever you tell him.
Xen New Blood Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2

27th March 2006, 01:52 PM	#8
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Originally Posted by Xen Published statistics would not take into account unreported domestic violence like "suffer the little children" and "spoil the rod and spare the child" style religiously inspired child-beatings. I assume you're alluding to Mark 10:14, which in the KJV reads "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God." (In the more modern NIV, it reads "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.") How likely is this to inspire child-beating? (Also... "spoil the rod"?)
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940

27th March 2006, 02:02 PM	#9
jjramsey Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,436	Originally Posted by Xen Your best bet would be to make something up. If your friend is a genuine believer, then he might just believe whatever you tell him. Let me put this as politely as I can. That is an execrably dishonest piece of, ahem, advice you gave, and if SkepticalScience were to take that advice, he'd be no better than a creationist. If you have that kind of casual attitude towards the truth, what are you doing on a skeptics' forum? Skeptics are supposed to value the truth.
	__________________ "One criticism I have with freethought publications in the field of religion is that so often they are wrong; they are inaccurate. . . . The point I am trying to make is that to be authentic freethinkers, to be authentic truth seekers, we must draw on the best information available to substantiate our claims." -- Gerald LaRue, Freethinkers United! Conference 1997, Orlando, Florida

27th March 2006, 05:57 PM	#10
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas Posts: 24,631	Originally Posted by jjramsey Let me put this as politely as I can. That is an execrably dishonest piece of, ahem, advice you gave, and if SkepticalScience were to take that advice, he'd be no better than a creationist. If you have that kind of casual attitude towards the truth, what are you doing on a skeptics' forum? Skeptics are supposed to value the truth. Yeah, I have to side with JJRamsey here, and believe me that doesn't happen all too often. Admit that it's a fools errand, if you'd like, but don't make st up. It makes you look bad, and could hurt you in the long run.
	__________________ -Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Monroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

27th March 2006, 06:15 PM	#11
Coralius Student Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	You may be looking for something like this: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...798944,00.html http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html The first link is an article that summarizes the study found at the second link. The second one is the full paper. It shows a rise in "social ills" for more religious nations. It also defines "social ills" pretty well.
Coralius Student Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26

27th March 2006, 06:36 PM	#12
jjramsey Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,436	Originally Posted by Coralius You may be looking for something like this: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...798944,00.html http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html The first link is an article that summarizes the study found at the second link. The second one is the full paper. It shows a rise in "social ills" for more religious nations. It also defines "social ills" pretty well. This is an interesting, and perhaps telling, paragraph from the paper: Quote: Regression analyses were not executed because of the high variability of degree of correlation, because potential causal factors for rates of societal function are complex, and because it is not the purpose of this initial study to definitively demonstrate a causal link between religion and social conditions. Nor were multivariate analyses used because they risk manipulating the data to produce errant or desired results, and because the fairly consistent characteristics of the sample automatically minimizes the need to correct for external multiple factors (see further discussion below). Therefore correlations of raw data are used for this initial examination. Judging by the scatter in the figures, the correlation coefficients that would be found if one did do a regression analysis would probably be pretty low. If you look at the figures and you take out the data point for the United States, the correlations are weak, if there at all. Basically then, it is questionable whether one is comparing the effect of religion or the effect of U.S. culture in general vs. European culture. The study is probably useful for indicating that religion does not necessarily have a beneficial effect, but I'd be leery of using it as evidence against religion.
	__________________ "One criticism I have with freethought publications in the field of religion is that so often they are wrong; they are inaccurate. . . . The point I am trying to make is that to be authentic freethinkers, to be authentic truth seekers, we must draw on the best information available to substantiate our claims." -- Gerald LaRue, Freethinkers United! Conference 1997, Orlando, Florida

27th March 2006, 06:48 PM	#13
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,453	I don't know how you count the "number of religions", so the way that the question is phrased will make an answer difficult. However, off the top of my head, I can think of a few "major" religions, meaning ones that I'm pretty sure have at least 10 million adherents. Christianity Islam Buddhism Confucianism Taoism Shinto Judaism (barely. It doesn't really count as a "major" religion by population, but it gets grandfathered in because of its offshoots, Christianity and Islam) Hinduism Jainism Sikhism (Those last two might be variations of Hindu. I'm not sure) Then you have lots of variations of animism/tribal religions still practiced in Africa, the South Pacific, and by Native Americans. Put all those together, and you would cover pretty much everyone. Of those, Christianity and Islam mention Christ.
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

27th March 2006, 09:42 PM	#14
Coralius Student Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	Originally Posted by jjramsey The study is probably useful for indicating that religion does not necessarily have a beneficial effect, but I'd be leery of using it as evidence against religion. Isn't this what he was wanting, though? Something to show that high proportions of religious people doesn't necessarily make a country better?
Coralius Student Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26

27th March 2006, 09:43 PM	#15
Coralius Student Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Of those, Christianity and Islam mention Christ. Doesn't Hinduism recognize Christ as a holy man/prohpet type, like the Baha'i?
Coralius Student Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26

27th March 2006, 09:52 PM	#16
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,453	Originally Posted by Coralius Doesn't Hinduism recognize Christ as a holy man/prohpet type, like the Baha'i? I don't know much about Hindus, so what I'm about to say reflects about 20 minutes of conversation with a Hindu coworker. Take it for what it's worth, which is not much. He tells me that the Jains tend to recognize other religious figures as incarnations of the deity. I was asking specifically about the Buddha when we discussed it, and he said that Jains would revere the Buddha, along with other religious figures like Jesus, but that mainstream Hindus would not. If Hindus had any sort of references to Jesus it would be of the sort that would say that every widely known holy man must be a sort of prophet. So, they might say that Jesus was a holy man, and they might say Buddha was, and Joseph Smith, and every other religious figure, since ultimately, there's only one God anyway, so every religious figure is obviously worshipping the same god.
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

28th March 2006, 05:17 AM	#17
stamenflicker Muse Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Tennessee Posts: 869	Originally Posted by meg Just out of curiosity, I started googling serial killers and their religions. Here's what I found this last 1/2 hr. It might be interesting sometime to look up all the known serial killers and see if there are any religious patterns. Jeffrey Dahmer - Church of Christ Dayton Leroy Rogers - Seventh Day Adventist Myra Hindley - Roman Catholic Ted Bundy - Morman, converted to Hinduism in prison John Wayne Gacy - Roman Catholic David Berkowitz - Born Again Christian Bob Berdella - Catholic Robert Lee Yates - Seventh Day Adventist Dennis Rader (BTK strangler) - Lutheran - president of the church council I'm pretty sure Berkowitz became Christian in prison after the murders. The real problem with using any sort of data like this is that most Americans claim Christianity as the their religion, so you can pick out any number category and expect a pretty high percentage. The problem with this thread is simply the issue of claiming Christianity. It's an ideology that's become so watered down-- it's like me being able to claim I am a humanitarian. I may think I hold humanitarian values, but let's face it, I've not protested or demonstrated for human rights anyplace that I can remember, I haven't written the President concerning the killings in Darfur. I've not petitioned my State penal institutions for fair treatment of prisoners, etc. etc. So I am? So it's sort of pointless in many ways.
	__________________ http://narcissus-shrugged.blogspot.com/

28th March 2006, 05:54 AM	#18
meg psychic reader TLA Winner Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kansas USA Posts: 1,404	I agree that the links and info I found can't really be used as proof of anything. However, what the OP said was that this was an argument with a friend who said : "that x-ianity has MUCH lower rates of violence than any other religion." My point with showing prisoner religious affiliations and the christian affiliations of some of our most notorious murderers was simply to cast some doubt on that statement. If it was true that christianity has MUCH lower rates of violence than other religions, I would think that you would see generally a lower rate of christianity in prisoners, or that most serial killers would not be christians. I think its enough to be able to show that and then say, "If you have some evidence of christianity having MUCH lower rates of violence than any other religion, show it. Prove it." Quote: stamenflicker:"The problem with this thread is simply the issue of claiming Christianity. It's an ideology that's become so watered down--" I agree. However what that makes me think is that it is up to the claimer to prove his statements. If he actually looks, he will also see that it's an almost impossible claim to prove, - so it should not be stated as fact. It's just an opinion; a wish, really, with no evidence to back it up. Meg
	__________________ "If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he next comes to drinking and sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas DeQuincey

28th March 2006, 09:35 AM	#19
burrahobbit Thinker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: India Posts: 192	Originally Posted by Coralius Doesn't Hinduism recognize Christ as a holy man/prohpet type, like the Baha'i? No. Hinduism, being much older than Christianity, makes no mention of Christ. It has coopted the Buddha (and the Jain Mahavira) since they happened to be Hindu and Buddhism and Jainism were competing with Brahmanic Hinduism for the same souls. The Baha'i faith mentions both Christ and Mohammed since it is an offshoot of Islam.
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28th March 2006, 09:39 AM	#20
burrahobbit Thinker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: India Posts: 192	Individual Hindus may think that Christ had some nice ideas but the religion as a whole pretty much ignores the bible. As Gandhi felt " The sermon on the mount is great but the rest of the bible s****" (Heavily paraphrased )
	__________________ If there is a God, it's going to be a whole lot bigger and a whole lot more incomprehensible than anything that any theologian of any religion has ever proposed.- Richard Dawkins

28th March 2006, 09:49 AM	#21
LordoftheLeftHand Dominus Sinistrae Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,186	Originally Posted by SkepticalScience 1. I want to know the number of religions that cite jesus in one way or another v.s. the total number of religions there are/were. 2. I want to know if there are lower rates of violence in christianity as opposed to other religions. 1. You might want to determine what you consider citing Jesus. I suggest that you use any religion that refers to itself as Christian. 2. How are you going to define violence? Sounds easy at first, but in practice it can be difficult. Good Luck, LLH
	__________________ What though the field be lost? All is not lost—the unconquerable will, And study of revenge, immortal hate, And courage never to submit or yield - Milton, Paradise Lost

28th March 2006, 12:56 PM	#22
the_bgma Student Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: http://www.freewebs.com/ thebgma/index.htm Posts: 42	The best site I've found for religious data is: www . adherents . com Awesome bank of info there! ****************************************** The Bible of the Good and Moral Atheist
	Last edited by the_bgma; 28th March 2006 at 01:32 PM.

28th March 2006, 08:52 PM	#23
stamenflicker Muse Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Tennessee Posts: 869	Originally Posted by meg I agree that the links and info I found can't really be used as proof of anything. However, what the OP said was that this was an argument with a friend who said : "that x-ianity has MUCH lower rates of violence than any other religion." Well I think the onus of proof then lies on him for making the claim. This might help: TEN WORST COUNTRIES FOR MURDER, LATE-1990s COUNTRY PER 100,000 (1) Columbia 84.4 (2) El Salvador 50.2 (3) Puerto Rico 41.8 (4) Brazil 32.5 (5) Albania 28.2 (6) Venezuela 25.0 (7) Russian Federation 18.0 (8) Ecuador 15.9 (9) Mexico 15.3 (10) Panama 14.4 TEN SAFEST COUNTRIES FOR MURDER, LATE-1990s COUNTRY PER MILLION (1) Slovenia 0.7 (2) Austria 0.9 (3) Sweden 1.8 (4) Switzerland 2.3 (5) Israel 2.3 (6) Hong Kong 2.4 (7) Norway 2.5 (8) Ireland 2.8 (9) Finland 3.7 (10) Singapore 4.3 stats come from here, I think it is mostly 2002 data according to the author: http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html The Westernized countries seem to be fairing better on the average, with your primary cocaine countries and fascist states having the worse. I doubt your friend can reliably demonstrate that Christianity has any bearing on murder rates. The US was 6.8, considerably lower than these other countries, but also worse off than what he might define as the "secularized" European countries.
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29th March 2006, 07:50 PM	#24
the_bgma Student Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: http://www.freewebs.com/ thebgma/index.htm Posts: 42	Yes, I've seen data (help someone with the links?) that rank countries on a whole bunch of different measures. Atheist countries tend to have high education and low crime. We do have to recognize the communist exceptions, although I have heard it described as "organic" Atheism (i.e. natural due to modern cultural) vs. "enforced" Atheism such as in China and the USSR. ******************************************** The Bible of the Good and Moral Atheist

29th March 2006, 10:21 PM	#25
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Originally Posted by stamenflicker Well I think the onus of proof then lies on him for making the claim. This might help: TEN WORST COUNTRIES FOR MURDER, LATE-1990s COUNTRY PER 100,000 (1) Columbia 84.4 (2) El Salvador 50.2 (3) Puerto Rico 41.8 (4) Brazil 32.5 (5) Albania 28.2 (6) Venezuela 25.0 (7) Russian Federation 18.0 (8) Ecuador 15.9 (9) Mexico 15.3 (10) Panama 14.4 TEN SAFEST COUNTRIES FOR MURDER, LATE-1990s COUNTRY PER MILLION (1) Slovenia 0.7 (2) Austria 0.9 (3) Sweden 1.8 (4) Switzerland 2.3 (5) Israel 2.3 (6) Hong Kong 2.4 (7) Norway 2.5 (8) Ireland 2.8 (9) Finland 3.7 (10) Singapore 4.3 stats come from here, I think it is mostly 2002 data according to the author: http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html Hmmm...why does he change unit in the middle of everything? The worst countries are per 100,000, but the safest are per 1,000,000. How long a timeframe are we talking about here? "Late-1990s" cover how long, exactly?
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