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#1 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream
Posts: 3,050
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Engine 143: Oral History in Action!
![]() I don’t know if this will be of interest to, well, anyone at all, but I wanted a place to write down what I found out about this song, and if it did interest anyone, feel free to correct me, or add what you know ![]() Anyway, I watched Walk the Line the other night, a film about Johnny Cash (jolly good film actually, brilliantly done imo) and at the very beginning there’s about three seconds of an old folk song I recognised – Engine 143. I know it by Joan Baez (it was on Joan Baez Volume 2), but the version that’s on the film was the Carter Family one, recorded about 1929. It was always a song that interested me, because apart from the fact that it’s such a brilliant song, so beautifully sung by Baez, it seems to hint at real events, something that happened once, sometime, some place, that’s just about forgotten, but for this one song. The lyrics as I know them from the Baez version don’t contain really enough information on their own to research – a guy named Georgie, a place, an engine number, but all Googling turned up were the song lyrics. Here they are actually – this is the Carter Family version, but it was absolutely faithfully covered by Joan Baez, so it’s both really:
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As I said, searching on these terms only produced more reprints of the same lyrics, so that was a dead end. I also have a few books of and about folk songs on my shelf, but none refer to this one. Neither does anything I’ve got by or about Joan Baez. But what I did discover was another, longer, version, with more detail! I can’t remember exactly how I found it, but here are those lyrics:
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This, then, was the key to finding out what really happened, and why the song was written. Searching some of these terms, of course, brought up more versions of the lyrics, but also some unconnected newspaper articles from that very date – October 23rd 1890 – held in archive. They’re all from the newspapers local to West Virginia – and here they are: From the Huntington Daily Advertiser, October 23rd 1890,
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It fascinates me that not only was there a story behind it, but also that the story was recoverable, 116 years and hundreds of miles away. There are some loose ends – I haven’t been able to find any trace of the fireman named Jack Dickerson. The articles mention the names of several firemen, but not him. I guess the ballad has embroidered somewhat – his mother visiting (the newspapers say he asked for his family throughout the five hours he survived, but they didn’t make it), and his choosing to die must perhaps be a romanticising of the fact that he died from injuries that wouldn’t necessarily have been fatal. I also would like to see the type of train it was (FFV?), and I think I found the place on Google Earth, with the Greenbrier River (which was maybe colloquially called the New River, “runnin’ high”), and Hinton nearby, but it’d be interesting to know if there’s still a railway there. I did find some stuff about the C&O Road (Chesapeake & Ohio Railway) here, which confirms some of the details, but I’ll carry on looking for other stuff when I take another break from all this horrible work they make me do. But also, where did the number 143 come from? And I wonder if some of the details in the song which aren’t reported in the newspapers might be actual extra details which only exist in the oral transmission of the events – Georgie telling his fireman to jump clear, his mother’s role, etc. The song itself is great too, and I’m interested in other versions – as far as I can tell, the recorded versions are all the slightly cut garbled Carter Family version, but it’s been done by, as well as the Carter Family and Baez, Johnny Cash, Hamper McVee, the Kossoy Sisters, Doc Watson (as ‘The FFV’), Austin Harmon (as ‘George Allen’), to name but a few, so I’m going to see if I can slowly collect them somehow. It can be played moderately well on the guitar – I haven’t a clue how to do the Carter flatpick (Maybelle Carter actually invented that style, and at least Baez does it exactly the same), but I can bash it out using just A, D and E, and, well, it’s fun And wasn’t it Woody Guthrie who said, if you use more than three chords in a song, you’re just showing off?So anyway, as I said, I just wanted a place to put everything I found, to download it from my head before the file corrupts, but if anyone has anything to add, I’d be interested in anything you know that I don’t to fuel this strange obsession I seem to be developing. Edited for formatting. |
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From the UK? Sceptical? Like forums? Well my psychic powers tell me that the UK Skeptics' Forum is for you - 8 out of 10 sceptics demand to know where these figures came from. Non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli (Flen Flyys, c.15th Century) Get out of my head, Nucular (kmortis) |
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#2 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The Uncanny Valley
Posts: 1,358
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From genealogical references, George W. Alley was born about 1861, and his father Leonidis was also an engineer. His brother Charles was a fireman. (as of 1880).
Dickerson was probably made up as in the real story the on-duty fireman was scalded as well, not likely if he jumped. Made Alley seem more heroic as the only one to ride the engine to the end. |
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"Did it indeed seem probable, as he had once overheard Dunbar ask, that the answers to the riddles of creation would be supplied by people too ignorant to understand the mechanics of rainfall? Had Almighty God, in all His infinite wisdom, really been afraid that men six thousand years ago would succeed in building a tower to heaven?" Thoughts of the Chaplain in Heller's Catch-22 |
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#3 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream
Posts: 3,050
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Interesting, I didn't think of going down the genealogical route
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A look around finds a Dickerson family in West Virginia (trouble is, 'Jack' can be a version of several different names, or even just a nickname); it also finds a couple of Jack Dickersons alive at the right time but probably not the right place (one died in Texas in 1929, and is intriguingly described on his tombstone "Wagoner 509 Engin Serv Bn"). Another possibility is that it's an in-joke reference from a later version to the Jack Dickerson mentioned on this page, who was a bluegrass singer/songwriter. |
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From the UK? Sceptical? Like forums? Well my psychic powers tell me that the UK Skeptics' Forum is for you - 8 out of 10 sceptics demand to know where these figures came from. Non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli (Flen Flyys, c.15th Century) Get out of my head, Nucular (kmortis) |
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#4 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The Uncanny Valley
Posts: 1,358
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FFV= "Fast Flying Virginian" per this site: http://www.wvculture.org/history/timetrl/ttoct.html
Also, per that site, Alley was pinned inside the engine until he died asking for his family who arrived shortly after he died. Sure seems like the stuff from which legends are made. Add in him making the fireman jump to safety, and you have a genuine hero. As an aside, the FFV ran from 1889 to 1968. Wilbur Wright traveled on and transported most of the components of the first Wright plane on the FFV out of Cinncinatti in 1900 when he went to Kitty Hawk. |
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"Did it indeed seem probable, as he had once overheard Dunbar ask, that the answers to the riddles of creation would be supplied by people too ignorant to understand the mechanics of rainfall? Had Almighty God, in all His infinite wisdom, really been afraid that men six thousand years ago would succeed in building a tower to heaven?" Thoughts of the Chaplain in Heller's Catch-22 |
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#5 |
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A broken man on a Halifax pier, the last of Barrett's Privateers
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: About 7 Miles from the Saturn 5B
Posts: 6,533
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Great stuff, nucular, I enjoyed reading your discovery of the history here.
Probably the number of the Engine; most of the old steam locomotives had their production number on the front for identification purposes, and were often known by that number. One thing that stuck me was in one of the verses:
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Thanks for the thread, Nuc. |
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If sheer righteous fury could accomplish anything worthwhile, Wolverines would have inherited the Galaxy long ago." -Web DuHavel, David Weber's "Honorverse" Series |
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#6 |
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King of the Pod People
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 20,510
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Thanks for a fascinating thread, Nuc. I listen to/sing/play songs like this all the time, it's kinda fun learning about the history behind them.
If you're interested, Carter-style flatpicking isn't that difficult; you're basically doing a standard country/bluegrass bass-strum while alternating the bass notes and occasionally picking out a simply melody. Johnny Cash's guitar style is very similar. A lot of folk songs actually have a historical basis to them, even if the song isn't always historically accurate. Off the top of my head: Hang Down Your Head, Tom Dooley Songs about outlaws (Jesse James, Pretty Boy Floyd, etc) Titanic ("It was sad, it was sad, it was sad when that great ship went down") Pretty much anything by Woody Guthrie There's some debate about whether John Henry (the steel drivin' man) was actually a historical person or just a folk legend; ditto for John Hardy (a desperate little man, carried two guns every day). Some people even think they might be the same person. Both songs have many different versions that vary wildly in their details. A great site for this sort of stuff is the MudCat Cafe, which includes a huge list of folk song lyrics as well as discussion forums and other resources. |
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#7 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream
Posts: 3,050
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Ah, Fast Flying Virginian - knowing that now, there's a lot of stuff about the trains and the line out there (I couldn't figure out what it stood for, I was searching 'vestibular' for the V).
In fact, here's a 1909 photo of the Number 4 C&O line - could this be the actual train? I don't know how the numbering system works, but the clippings mention the train was back on the tracks by the end of the day, which suggests it wasn't a write-off. I've been doing a bit of searching around on the C&O Historical Society site to see if they've got anything - it surprises me actually that they don't seem to have anything directly related to this incident or the song, I'd have thought it would be something they'd be very interested in. Nevertheless, there's a whole load of stuff on there to do with the history of the line, the trains, the places, etc. Just wish I had more time! They have a lot of old photos online, which are interesting - that's where I found the 1909 picture of Number 4. But there seems to be no reference anywhere on the site to a Number 143; the only place that number is mentioned is the song itself, which I find slightly odd. In what sense could the train be "old Number 4" and "one hundred and forty three"? Re: Jack Dickerson the fireman, I'm still ticking that one over. As you mentioned, Freethinker, a different on-duty fireman is mentioned in the newspapers, and he probably didn't jump, given that he was scalded. But why "Jack Dickerson"? For one thing, if a made-up name was going there, "Jack Dixon" would fit better, I think - when you sing that version, it's hard to make it sound right, it doesn't scan. Though that could just be me. And I'm stil intrigued by the Texan Jack Dickerson, whose gravestone reads "Wagoner 509 Engin Serv Bn" - sounds railwayish to me. But yes, right time, wrong place. |
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From the UK? Sceptical? Like forums? Well my psychic powers tell me that the UK Skeptics' Forum is for you - 8 out of 10 sceptics demand to know where these figures came from. Non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli (Flen Flyys, c.15th Century) Get out of my head, Nucular (kmortis) |
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#8 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream
Posts: 3,050
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Now that's interesting! I know the song, and had made no such connection - I can't remember off-hand if the couple of Guthrie versions I have include that line, I'll have to go back and check - but yes, "Big Ben Tunnel", in conjunction with C&O and East Virginia must refer to the same place.
And again from the C&O Historical Society, here's a picture of the very tunnel (taken 1931); and here it is again today, now apparently called the Great Bend Tunnel. Cheers, Hutch
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From the UK? Sceptical? Like forums? Well my psychic powers tell me that the UK Skeptics' Forum is for you - 8 out of 10 sceptics demand to know where these figures came from. Non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli (Flen Flyys, c.15th Century) Get out of my head, Nucular (kmortis) |
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#9 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream
Posts: 3,050
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When I get more time, I'll have a good old proper go to see if I can do a pale imitation
I have no natural aptitude for the guitar, and little patience, but I can bash out a few tunes, and this is one I'd love to be able to do properly.
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But it's always so interesting I think to find what's underneath these songs - and especially when the connections might not have been made yet, or not be commonly known. In the same (or, well, similar) tradition, some of Dylan's early 'protestiest' protest songs were culled from the headlines of the day - and weirdly, what with all the Dylan anoraks there are about, some of them are almost as hard to find stuff about.
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Something I did just find on there is a laugh-out-loud pastiche of this very song in question, apparently sung by Dave van Ronk:
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From the UK? Sceptical? Like forums? Well my psychic powers tell me that the UK Skeptics' Forum is for you - 8 out of 10 sceptics demand to know where these figures came from. Non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli (Flen Flyys, c.15th Century) Get out of my head, Nucular (kmortis) |
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#10 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The Uncanny Valley
Posts: 1,358
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You've got to remember that the train would have been pulled by different engines, sometimes even on the same run. One article mentioned tenders derailed, but didn't say the coaches had derailed. Also, one article mentions that it was engine 134 that derailed, and the song transposed the digits. Maybe 143 rhymed better where they needed it. Sounds military to me, Engineer Service Battalion. |
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"Did it indeed seem probable, as he had once overheard Dunbar ask, that the answers to the riddles of creation would be supplied by people too ignorant to understand the mechanics of rainfall? Had Almighty God, in all His infinite wisdom, really been afraid that men six thousand years ago would succeed in building a tower to heaven?" Thoughts of the Chaplain in Heller's Catch-22 |
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#11 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream
Posts: 3,050
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Ah yes - I'm picturing a 'train' as just this one entity, not considering that it's distinct from its engine.
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From the UK? Sceptical? Like forums? Well my psychic powers tell me that the UK Skeptics' Forum is for you - 8 out of 10 sceptics demand to know where these figures came from. Non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli (Flen Flyys, c.15th Century) Get out of my head, Nucular (kmortis) |
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#12 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream
Posts: 3,050
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Thought I'd found a reference to it then, Engine 134, on a train wreck site - but this is 1921, and the 'wreck' was a broken hand rail that caused the crew to fall out
I have a comedy image in my mind, hope it wasn't tragic. Anyway, I think 134 must be an unlucky number for trains
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From the UK? Sceptical? Like forums? Well my psychic powers tell me that the UK Skeptics' Forum is for you - 8 out of 10 sceptics demand to know where these figures came from. Non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli (Flen Flyys, c.15th Century) Get out of my head, Nucular (kmortis) |
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#13 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The Uncanny Valley
Posts: 1,358
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Here among other places http://rush2jc.50megs.com/1023.html
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"Did it indeed seem probable, as he had once overheard Dunbar ask, that the answers to the riddles of creation would be supplied by people too ignorant to understand the mechanics of rainfall? Had Almighty God, in all His infinite wisdom, really been afraid that men six thousand years ago would succeed in building a tower to heaven?" Thoughts of the Chaplain in Heller's Catch-22 |
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#14 |
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Critical Thinker
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: east of eden; west of zion
Posts: 306
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Engine 143
I remember "Engine 143" from the early '60s when I attended the Defense Language Institute (former Army Language School) in Monterey, Calif.
Most of the students at DRI had a couple of years of college, but I was right out of high school and impressed by the "older" men. A friend who was over 21 took me to a bar/cafe next to the Steinbeck Theater close by the Monterey Pier. As he drank his pitcher of beer and I my soft drink, he nodded toward a nearby table. "That's Joan Baez," he said. I didn't know who Joan Baez was, as the only "folk music" I had heard up until then was sung by Burl Ives or the Kingstone Trio. When we got back to the barracks, he played Baez's Volume 2 for me. Her voice was the sweetest sound I had ever heard. I loved her music until it got too political for me. A few years back, I bought a CD of Baez's volume 2. I was disappointed because there was some very interesting information about each song on the back of the jacket that was not included with the modern CD. Here's what I recall from Baez's description of the history behind "Engine 143" (I'm sure you'll be skeptical of my memory after 40 years and the accuracy of album-jacket history in the first place) The FFV was the Fast Flying Vestibule. Georgie Allen's father was an engineer who had died in a railroad accident while Georgie was a teenager. Partly to help the family and partly because of Georgie's merits, the C&0 made him an engineer at an unusually young age. But Georgie was well-known along the line and his death caused a lot of turmoil. The song dramatized the danger faced on the railroad and became very popular. Newspapers picked up the cause and it eventually led to the first federal law that regulated workplace safety -- I presume that was the act passed in 1883 to require trains to have air brakes. Haven't ever taken the time to research that aspect of the song -- but that's what I remember. |
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#15 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream
Posts: 3,050
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Harpoon, (as I mentioned in the pm I sent you), thanks for your contribution!
Your recollection of the original liner notes makes it all the more clear why this particular piece of railroad history was powerful enough to be captured in a song, and indeed, why that song itself was powerful enough to survive and still be listened to today, all this time later! So Georgie's father was an engineer, who also died in a train crash - and then his son did too. A new layer to the story - and indeed, another piece of 'oral' history, with your passing onto us (albeit in written, but colloquial, form) some information you came across some 40 years ago. Fascinating... I'm not so sure, though, that the incident could have given rise to the 1883 federal legislation you mentioned regarding compulsory air brakes, since the newspaper articles of the time are from after that date, October 1890... ah, but I've just checked on Wikipedia, and I think 1883 was a typo for 1893, since this was the date mentioned for the introduction of the Safety Appliance Act by Congress, is this the one you referred to? |
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From the UK? Sceptical? Like forums? Well my psychic powers tell me that the UK Skeptics' Forum is for you - 8 out of 10 sceptics demand to know where these figures came from. Non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli (Flen Flyys, c.15th Century) Get out of my head, Nucular (kmortis) |
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#16 |
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Critical Thinker
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: east of eden; west of zion
Posts: 306
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That would be the one.
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