NDEs May be caused by Sleep Disorder(s)

[SteveGrenard]

This study was published today in the journal Neurology and is receiving widespread coverage in the media. The following is the abstract from the original journal article which appears under "Views and Reviews." Intrusion of REM sleep with all the known factors that accompany normal REM sleep has always been a contender from my point of view.

Quote:

Does the arousal system contribute to near death experience?

Kevin R. Nelson, MD, Michelle Mattingly, PhD, Sherman A. Lee, PhD and Frederick A. Schmitt, PhD

From the Departments of Neurology (K.R.N., M.M., F.A.S.) and Education and Counseling (S.A.L.) and Sanders-Brown Center on Aging (F.A.S.), Departments of Neurology, Psychiatry, Psychology, and Behavioral Sciences, University of Kentucky, Lexington.
Address correspondence to Dr Nelson, Department of Neurology, Kentucky Clinic L-445, College of Medicine, University of Kentucky, 800 Rose St., Lexington, KY 40536-0284; e-mail: knelson@email.uky.edu

The neurophysiologic basis of near death experience (NDE) is unknown. Clinical observations suggest that REM state intrusion contributes to NDE. Support for the hypothesis follows five lines of evidence: REM intrusion during wakefulness is a frequent normal occurrence, REM intrusion underlies other clinical conditions, NDE elements can be explained by REM intrusion, cardiorespiratory afferents evoke REM intrusion, and persons with an NDE may have an arousal system predisposing to REM intrusion. To investigate a predisposition to REM intrusion, the life-time prevalence of REM intrusion was studied in 55 NDE subjects and compared with that in age/gender-matched control subjects. Sleep paralysis as well as sleep-related visual and auditory hallucinations were substantially more common in subjects with an NDE. These findings anticipate that under circumstances of peril, an NDE is more likely in those with previous REM intrusion. REM intrusion could promote subjective aspects of NDE and often associated syncope. Suppression of an activated locus ceruleus could be central to an arousal system predisposed to REM intrusion and NDE.
http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/7/1003

[CFLarsen]

How did they determine if the patients were "near death"?

How can they perform experiments on people who are "near death"?

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

How did they determine if the patients were "near death"?

How can they perform experiments on people who are "near death"?

This is a retrospective study. They are not saying their new subjects were near death, they are trying to determine if the cause of a near death like "experience" is actually the result of REM sleep intrusion disorder. To try and put it another way, it is possible for people to have symptoms which are the same as those expressed by people who were truly near death (e.g. cardiac arrests who were resuscitated).

Bruce Greyson in a preliminary comment this morning said:

Quote:

The authors of the study did NOT conclude (as some of the press releases imply) that REM intrusion into wakefulness causes NDEs (indeed, 40% of their NDEr sample denied any "symptoms" of REM intrusion). They concluded only that REM intrusion may contribute to the phenomenology of NDEs. Well, they might . . . but since this was a retrospective study, it is also plausible that having an NDE makes it more likely subsequently that REM states will intrude into waking consciousness.

Bruce Greyson, M.D.

(via e-mail)

[SteveGrenard]

Maybe this account with comments from the PI will help:

Quote:

Sleep Aberration May Play Role in Near-Death Experience

By Michael Smith, MedPage Today Staff Writer

Reviewed by Zalman S. Agus, MD; Emeritus Professor at the University of
Pennsylvania School of Medicine.

April 10, 2006

people can't hear.

"It's intuitive to most neurologists that the arousal system is going to be
highly engaged in circumstances of near death," Dr. Nelson said in an
interview. "And a key element of the arousal system is the REM system."

The possible link between REM intrusion and near-death experiences, Dr.
Nelson said, was suggested by the similarity of some of the sensations, as
well as by the observation that REM intrusion underlies other clinical
conditions, such as narcolepsy.


Kevin R. Nelson et al. "Does the arousal system contribute to near death
experience?" Neurology 2006; 66:1003-1009.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Neurolog...rology/dh/3062

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

Maybe this account with comments from the PI will help:



http://www.medpagetoday.com/Neurolog...rology/dh/3062

Did you get the author's permission to post the full article?

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

Did you get the author's permission to post the full article?

I was trying to help you understand this. I agree. Go to the link instead. I hope it helps answer your original questions.

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

This is a retrospective study. They are not saying their new subjects were near death, they are trying to determine if the cause of a near death like "experience"

What is the difference between a "near death like experience" and a "near death experience"?

People are having the same experiences, only they are not "near death"?

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

I was trying to help you understand this.

Forum rules about copyright have not changed since you went away.

Rule #4:
You will not post "copyright-protected1" material in its entirety, including "hotlinking2" to images or other media.

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

This is a retrospective study. They are not saying their new subjects were near death, they are trying to determine if the cause of a near death like "experience" is actually the result of REM sleep intrusion disorder. To try and put it another way, it is possible for people to have symptoms which are the same as those expressed by people who were truly near death (e.g. cardiac arrests who were resuscitated).

Where does the study say anything about "near death like" experiences?

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

Go to the link instead. I hope it helps answer your original questions.

I did go to the link. I can't find the answers.

Do you know the answers?

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

What is the difference between a "near death like experience" and a "near death experience"?

People are having the same experiences, only they are not "near death"?

you got it....that's right.

[CFLarsen]

Where does the study say anything about "near death like" experiences?

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

Where does the study say anything about "near death like" experiences?

It says it because there were two groups studied .... 1. a retrospective group of people who did have near death events like cardiac arrests and the 2. a new group who had symptoms of REM sleep intrusion (measured during a sleep study). The symptoms, experiences, perceptions, whatever you want to call them, expressed by people who actually did have a near death event such as a cardiac arrest were similar to those of the people who did not have a near death event. The armchair skeptics have tried to debunk or impeach NDEs on the basis of hallucinogenic drugs, environment (e.g. light in ceiling), ketamine during anesthesia, and endorphin production and hypoxemia. These causes have been impeached as causes since there are cases of people expressing the symptoms of near death event who were not hypoxemic and who did not receive drugs or had taken drugs which cause hallucinations and in a state of shut down the body does not produce endorphins either. On the other hand, subjects who have REM sleep intrusion and higher amounts of REM sleep overall, expressed the same experiences as the true near death people. I call the new or second group near death like experiencers since obviously besides the experiences they are basically healthy and nowhere near dead. REM sleep has been well studied in the sleep lab but consistently is overlooked by armchair skeptics as a cause of the symptomatology of NDEs. The hypothesis these authors posit is that true near death event experiencers who have subsequently been shown to have REM sleep intrusion can lay the cause of their experience on that factor.

If you know the physiology of REM you will realize that this normal sleep state can produce experiences similar to those reported by true near death event experiencers. It is also responsible for sleep paralysis, alien abductions and together with the obstructive sleep apnea, the Old Hag Syndrome.


from the news account:

Quote:

University of Kentucky team studied 55 people
who'd had near death experiences - defined as
"a time during a life-threatening episode when
a person undergoes an outer body experience,
unusual alertness, sees an intense light, or feels
a great sense of peace" - and compared them to
55 who hadn't.

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

It says it because there were two groups studied .... 1. a retrospective group of people who did have near death events like cardiac arrests and the 2. a new group who had symptoms of REM sleep intrusion (measured during a sleep study). The symptoms, experiences, perceptions, whatever you want to call them, expressed by people who actually did have a near death event such as a cardiac arrest were similar to those of the people who did not have a near death event.

The armchair skeptics

Who are those? Names, please.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

have tried to debunk or impeach NDEs on the basis of hallucinogenic drugs, environment (e.g. light in ceiling), ketamine during anesthesia, and endorphin production and hypoxemia. These causes have been impeached as causes since there are cases of people expressing the symptoms of near death event who were not hypoxemic and who did not receive drugs or had taken drugs which cause hallucinations and in a state of shut down the body does not produce endorphins either.

The causes you list have not been "impeached" as causes at all. If that was true, all people with Near Death Experiences would have to exhibit the exact same conditions. They don't. And to pick just one example, NDEs can be induced by ketamine.

Skeptic Dictionary on NDEs

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

On the other hand, subjects who have REM sleep intrusion and higher amounts of REM sleep overall, expressed the same experiences as the true near death people.

Wrong. They did not express the same experiences as the "true" NDE'ers. There are elements of NDE that can be explained by REM intrusion.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

I call the new or second group near death like experiencers since obviously besides the experiences they are basically healthy and nowhere near dead.

"Near death like experiences" is your definition, not the researchers'. This is not about NDE like experiences, then.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

REM sleep has been well studied in the sleep lab but consistently is overlooked by armchair skeptics as a cause of the symptomatology of NDEs. The hypothesis these authors posit is that true near death event experiencers who have subsequently been shown to have REM sleep intrusion can lay the cause of their experience on that factor.

Again, who are these "armchair skeptics"? Names, please.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

If you know the physiology of REM you will realize that this normal sleep state can produce experiences similar to those reported by true near death event experiencers. It is also responsible for sleep paralysis, alien abductions and together with the obstructive sleep apnea, the Old Hag Syndrome.

Wrong. Alien abductions can also be induced by e.g. hypnosis.

[SteveGrenard]

Understand: I did not say ketamine, for example does not cause NDE like experiences. The problem is that not all NDE experiencers can have their experience laid on ketamine or 'Special K" (street name) which is almost never medically used on humans anymore (and not at all in the US where it is used as a horse sedative), hypoxemia (if they are not hypoxemic) or other hallucinogens (if they didn't get any drugs that cause hallucinations). Stage REM sleep or active sleep can cause all of the experiences also reported by NDE experiencers. Since stage REM sleep occur in all people and in increased amounts in many (REM intrusion, increased REM densities) it is the most PARSIMONIOUS explanation. REM suspends the neural connections between the muscles (except for heart and diaphragm) and the nervous system, causes sleep paralysis, and increases the degree of obstruction of the posterior oro-pharaynx.

Stage REM is classified as a hypnotic state so you are not
wrong but haven't considered taking this statement a bit further. People with narcolepsy go into REM instantly, are easy to hypnotize and become paralyzed ...er, having what seems like an alien abduction.


Stage REM sleep is the most parsimonious explanation for the NDE as it applies to virtually everyone and does not require the added complications arm chair skeptics posit as causation for hallcuinatory events such as floating, seeing a light (requires a light) or drug related (requires a drug) or
hypoxemia related (requires hypoxemia ... during REM, by the way, there is a natural, transient decrease in the arterial oxygen saturation).

Arm chair skepticism are what we are doing right now. We have not done the research we are talking about. You are an armchair skeptic, so am I right now by writing here although I have studied stage REM sleep for more than 10 years in the sleep lab.

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

Understand: I did not say ketamine, for example does not cause NDE like experiences.

Yes you did:

Quote:

The armchair skeptics have tried to debunk or impeach NDEs on the basis of hallucinogenic drugs, environment (e.g. light in ceiling), ketamine during anesthesia, and endorphin production and hypoxemia. These causes have been impeached as causes since there are cases of people expressing the symptoms of near death event who were not hypoxemic and who did not receive drugs or had taken drugs which cause hallucinations and in a state of shut down the body does not produce endorphins either.

But, if you want to retract that Ketamin has been impeached as a cause for NDE, what else do you want to retract?

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

The problem is that not all NDE experiencers can have their experience laid on ketamine or 'Special K" (street name) which is almost never medically used on humans anymore (and not at all in the US where it is used as a horse sedative), hypoxemia (if they are not hypoxemic) or other hallucinogens (if they didn't get any drugs that cause hallucinations).

Where's the problem? Nobody is saying that all NDE experiencers must have their experiences laid on ketamine. Some NDE experiences can be explained by Ketamine, some can be explained by other causes.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

Stage REM sleep or active sleep can cause all of the experiences also reported by NDE experiencers.

Not according to the study. Again:

Quote:

...NDE elements can be explained by REM intrusion...

If you want to maintain your assertion, please provide evidence.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

Since stage REM sleep occur in all people and in increased amounts in many (REM intrusion, increased REM densities) it is the most PARSIMONIOUS explanation. REM suspends the neural connections between the muscles (except for heart and diaphragm) and the nervous system, causes sleep paralysis, and increases the degree of obstruction of the posterior oro-pharaynx.

Stage REM is classified as a hypnotic state so you are not wrong but haven't considered taking this statement a bit further. People with narcolepsy go into REM instantly, are easy to hypnotize and become paralyzed ...er, having what seems like an alien abduction.

Stage REM sleep is the most parsimonious explanation for the NDE as it applies to virtually everyone and does not require the added complications arm chair skeptics posit as causation for hallcuinatory events such as floating, seeing a light (requires a light) or drug related (requires a drug) or hypoxemia related (requires hypoxemia ... during REM, by the way, there is a natural, transient decrease in the arterial oxygen saturation).

No, it could be one of the explanations for NDEs. AFAIK, this study has not been repeated, so it is way premature to make such an assertion.

Arm chair skepticism are what we are doing right now. We have not done the research we are talking about. You are an armchair skeptic, so am I right now by writing here although I have studied stage REM sleep for more than 10 years in the sleep lab.[/quote]

Where do you have this definition from?

Do you acknowledge that alien abductions can also be induced by hypnosis?

Do you acknowledge that this study is not about "NDE like experiences"?

Do you acknowledge that the people in the experiment did not express the same experiences as the "true" NDE'ers?

Do you acknowledge that the study only shows that there are elements of NDE that can be explained by REM intrusion?

[CFLarsen]

Steve,

In this thread, you argue that Pam Reynolds is clinically dead, yet had NDEs.

If all NDEs can be explained by REM intrusion, can you explain how someone with complete cessation of cellular metabolism in the brain can have REM?

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

Steve,

In this thread, you argue that Pam Reynolds is clinically dead, yet had NDEs.

If all NDEs can be explained by REM intrusion, can you explain how someone with complete cessation of cellular metabolism in the brain can have REM?

Pam's case is a special problem. As you know she was chilled to the point where her tissues did not require oxygen to function, particularly her brain which was being operated on. Obviously her brain and other tissues she survived the ordeal with were not irreversibly dead so that brings up the larger question of when is death permanent? I don't know the answer in terms that would be needed to resolve your question. Sorry. It is also not known if the state she was in permitted REM sleep or not. There are two types of REM: phasic REM and tonic REM. Phasic REM carries with it the characteristic eye movements of the sleep stage and would require muscle action and a functioning metabolism. In tonic REM the eyes are quiescent and no metabolic expenditure of energy is required. If I had to speculate, I would say Pam Reynolds was experiencing tonic REM. Since no one can go back in time and do an EOG on her during her subthermal period, no one obviously knows for sure. But to say she was having tonic REM recall would preserve the parsimony hypothesis for NDEs.

Whatever her status, it certainly allowed her to remember things if you take her at her word and I am not suggesting one way or the other her "memories" weren't real. Since being hypothermic, imbibing ketamine, becoming hypoxemic, etc etc are all things that individually or in combination could cause hallucinatory experiences, you are correct to say that REM alone is not a sole causal agent. However, since being hypothermic, hypoxemic or smashed on ketamine, mescaline, peyote mushrooms or LSD have been ruled out in most cases, then REM intrusion remains the most parsimonious non-paranormal explanation.

In 10 years of examining 14,000 overnight sleep studies I found some who had no REM sleep whatsoever and the reason for this was an arousal disorder linked to other problems (OSA & PLMS). These people did not dream, and of course did not have NDEs or remember them since they didn't happen. But by and large REM sleep is a universal ocurrence. Every recalled experience of an NDE subject can also be a recalled similar experience of a non-NDE subject, a person not near death who is just sleeping and demonstrating REM. Hence it is more than "elements" of NDEs that accompany REM sleep. This does not exclude the possibility that other things don't cause these experiences but adhering to the strict principle of parsimony makes this new study something to consider:

Quote:

PARSIMONY: (Latin parsimōnia ‘sparingness’) Simplicity and least number of requisites and assumptions; economy or frugality of components and associations.

http://www.bioscience-bioethics.org/p.htm

[lostnick3]

please excuse the interruption. what is the old hag syndrome?

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by lostnick3

please excuse the interruption. what is the old hag syndrome?

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedic...d+Hag+Syndrome

http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa112000a.htm

http://paranormal.about.com/cs/ghosthunting/f/blfaqs_ghosts08.htm





The patients I have talked to who complain about the old hag tell me they wake up paralyzed and unable to breathe and say a heavy old woman was sitting on their chest. Sleep paralysis occurs during REM sleep, as do hallucinations of people doing things to you. Subjects with obstructive sleep apnea fare worse during REM sleep due to oropharyngeal muscle relaxation and they commonly awaken out of REM with a crushing feeling against their chest or feeling of the inability to breathe.
This is a very bad medical condition that should be diagnosed in a sleep lab and treated with continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP) while asleep. Once CPAP is instiuted the Old Hag is exorcised.

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

Pam's case is a special problem. As you know she was chilled to the point where her tissues did not require oxygen to function, particularly her brain which was being operated on. Obviously her brain and other tissues she survived the ordeal with were not irreversibly dead so that brings up the larger question of when is death permanent? I don't know the answer in terms that would be needed to resolve your question. Sorry. It is also not known if the state she was in permitted REM sleep or not. There are two types of REM: phasic REM and tonic REM. Phasic REM carries with it the characteristic eye movements of the sleep stage and would require muscle action and a functioning metabolism. In tonic REM the eyes are quiescent and no metabolic expenditure of energy is required. If I had to speculate, I would say Pam Reynolds was experiencing tonic REM. Since no one can go back in time and do an EOG on her during her subthermal period, no one obviously knows for sure. But to say she was having tonic REM recall would preserve the parsimony hypothesis for NDEs.

Whatever her status, it certainly allowed her to remember things if you take her at her word and I am not suggesting one way or the other her "memories" weren't real. Since being hypothermic, imbibing ketamine, becoming hypoxemic, etc etc are all things that individually or in combination could cause hallucinatory experiences, you are correct to say that REM alone is not a sole causal agent. However, since being hypothermic, hypoxemic or smashed on ketamine, mescaline, peyote mushrooms or LSD have been ruled out in most cases, then REM intrusion remains the most parsimonious non-paranormal explanation.

In 10 years of examining 14,000 overnight sleep studies I found some who had no REM sleep whatsoever and the reason for this was an arousal disorder linked to other problems (OSA & PLMS). These people did not dream, and of course did not have NDEs or remember them since they didn't happen. But by and large REM sleep is a universal ocurrence. Every recalled experience of an NDE subject can also be a recalled similar experience of a non-NDE subject, a person not near death who is just sleeping and demonstrating REM. Hence it is more than "elements" of NDEs that accompany REM sleep. This does not exclude the possibility that other things don't cause these experiences but adhering to the strict principle of parsimony makes this new study something to consider:

Steve,

You stated that:

Quote:

All this talk about anesthetics and hallucinations while interesting has no relevance in the Pam Reynolds case since the profound hypothermia to which she was subjected caused complete cessation of cellular metabolism in the brain and there would be no pathways by which such agents could function.
Source

How can you possibly argue that it isn't known if the state Pam Reynolds was in permitted REM sleep or not, if you have already stated that Pam Reynolds' brain could not function?

How can a person with "complete cessation of cellular metabolism in the brain" have NDEs?

Answer the questions. Please.

[lostnick3]

thanks that explains a lot. just thought it was my ol lady beating on my chest(have CPAP)

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

Steve,

You stated that:



How can you possibly argue that it isn't known if the state Pam Reynolds was in permitted REM sleep or not, if you have already stated that Pam Reynolds' brain could not function?

How can a person with "complete cessation of cellular metabolism in the brain" have NDEs?

Answer the questions. Please.

Your brighten my otherwise dull day. I never said her brain couldn't function. It was functioning at a very low level. I don't know how a
person with COMPLETE cessation of cellular metabolism in the brain could have an NDE. There is also the issue of the time factor. We don't know when her thoughts and memories were formed during the lengthy procedure. Before chilling, during chilling, during nadir, on rewarming or on awakening. Reynolds comes in as claiming she had these memories and as you know has made a persuasive case in many circles. If you want to impeach her on this basis that's fine with me. I don't care. I have never seen Shermer or Randi or any other skeptic scribe taker on her case in a serious fashion. Unlike them. I just did so by pointing to tonic REM which does not require a normal level of cellular metabolism to occur. You seem to have some notion that thoughts and memories require cellular metabolism at a very high level to occur when in fact they may still occur but at a very low metabolic rate.

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

Once CPAP is instiuted the Old Hag is exorcised.

Prove it.

[lostnick3]

in the case of frozen Pam. as I understand it "self" has not been located as of yet. could there has been a measurable wave not found yet? although she was not hooked for NED?

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by lostnick3

in the case of frozen Pam. as I understand it "self" has not been located as of yet. could there has been a measurable wave not found yet? although she was not hooked for NED?

What's hooked for NED?

[lostnick3]

dyslexia, NDE

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

Your brighten my otherwise dull day. I never said her brain couldn't function. It was functioning at a very low level.

You are a liar, Steve. You clearly stated that Pam's brain could not function. Yet, here you are, trying to claim that you never said such a thing.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

I don't know how a person with COMPLETE cessation of cellular metabolism in the brain could have an NDE.

But you made it clear that Pam had no brain functions whatsoever. How is this not a.... COMPLETE....cessation of cellular metabolism in the brain?

You are claiming that it is possible to have brain activity, while the brain had...and I quote:

Quote:

complete cessation of cellular metabolism in the brain

?

Just yes or no, please.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

There is also the issue of the time factor. We don't know when her thoughts and memories were formed during the lengthy procedure. Before chilling, during chilling, during nadir, on rewarming or on awakening. Reynolds comes in as claiming she had these memories and as you know has made a persuasive case in many circles. If you want to impeach her on this basis that's fine with me. I don't care. I have never seen Shermer or Randi or any other skeptic scribe taker on her case in a serious fashion. Unlike them. I just did so by pointing to tonic REM which does not require a normal level of cellular metabolism to occur. You seem to have some notion that thoughts and memories require cellular metabolism at a very high level to occur when in fact they may still occur but at a very low metabolic rate.

I don't care about your desperate attempts of explaining away your own claims, Steve. What I want you to do is address this question:

How can a person with "complete cessation of cellular metabolism in the brain" have NDEs?

[lostnick3]

f**king keyboard is designed for someone using more than 2 fingers. i was trying to say electronically hooked together with the EEG or whatever is the bench mark instrumentation for NDE.

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by lostnick3

f**king keyboard is designed for someone using more than 2 fingers. i was trying to say electronically hooked together with the EEG or whatever is the bench mark instrumentation for NDE.

ah, okay. Anything that hasn't been discovered yet is speculative. There is no conclusive NDE evidence done on an EEG I am aware of. The only evidence there is for an NDE is the patient's medical condition, they had a life threatening event, were resuscitated and then their own recollections of what happened during the time they were being brought back. Without accepting at face value the recollections and when the memories were formed that frame these experiences, there is nothing.

[SteveGrenard]

Claus F. Larsen writes:

Quote:

You are a liar, Steve. You clearly stated that Pam's brain could not function. Yet, here you are, trying to claim that you never said such a thing.

You brighten my day even more, more than you know. Thanks for that.
I never claimed anything of the kind by the way. In addition, I am not someone who lives in the past like some people but thought I was discussing this subject in light of this morning's publication from the Kentucky researchers. Apparently not. How pathetic and sad it is to just keep reliving the same old same old. Groundhog day must have a special meaning for you. Come back and talk when you can address today's issues.

The answer Einstein is that no person having an NDE and living was ever dead to begin with, by definition,. N=near. If they were dead they wouldn't be around talking about it

The authors of this new study quite rightfully also point out this provocative possibility:

Quote:

Suppression of an activated locus ceruleus could be central to an arousal system predisposed to REM intrusion and NDE.

I will have the full text tomorrow and will see where this goes.

.

[CFLarsen]

Steve,

You didn't answer the question:

How can a person with "complete cessation of cellular metabolism in the brain" have NDEs?

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

I will have the full text tomorrow and will see where this goes.

It's been three days. Any sign of the full text?

How can a person with "complete cessation of cellular metabolism in the brain" have NDEs?

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

It's been three days. Any sign of the full text?

How can a person with "complete cessation of cellular metabolism in the brain" have NDEs?

I reviewed the old thread on Pam. After you apolgize to me by the vicious way you framed it, I will answer your question.

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

I reviewed the old thread on Pam. After you apolgize to me by the vicious way you framed it, I will answer your question.

What is so "vicious" about the question? You made the claim that NDE occurred when a person's brain had no cellular metabolism. Please explain how this is possible.

And can we see that text or not? It's been four days now.

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

What is so "vicious" about the question? You made the claim that NDE occurred when a person's brain had no cellular metabolism. Please explain how this is possible.

And can we see that text or not? It's been four days now.

What text would that be?

Go back and read how you framed the question.

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

What text would that be?

The one you referred to in post #31.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

Go back and read how you framed the question.

Stop talking around the issue and address the point:

You made the claim that NDE occurred when a person's brain had no cellular metabolism. Please explain how this is possible.

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

The one you referred to in post #31.



Stop talking around the issue and address the point:

You made the claim that NDE occurred when a person's brain had no cellular metabolism. Please explain how this is possible.

I am waiting for a copy of the full text from my med library. It cannot, obviously, be posted but is necessary to intelliigently discuss this study further such as answering questions about methodology, etc.

If you will not apologize/retract, I place that on the record. It was a condition for my reply.

For the benefit of others, my reply is that I could find no studies in the neuropsych or other medical literature of any study which has documented the basal metabolic rate level (including total cessation of metabolism due to cold)or core body temperature with the ability to dream,hallucinate, cognate (think) or develop and store memories. There is no evidence that senses such as vision or hearing operate OR not at such levels either. Therefore, I cannot say that the memories of a profoundly (and medically induced) hypothermic NDEr are possible or not. There is nothing in the literature that has studied the relationship between core body temperature and BMR and this process. Pam Reynolds was a single case and is therefore statistically insignificant although NDE researchers claim her
recollections and the circumstances under which they were formed are unique. Her case is certainly not common and is not a common circumstance in the majority of NDE cases studied.

[CFLarsen]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

I am waiting for a copy of the full text from my med library. It cannot, obviously, be posted but is necessary to intelliigently discuss this study further such as answering questions about methodology, etc.

You cannot argue from a paper you refuse to show us. We don't know if you distort, misrepresent or flat-out lie about the content. And with your history, we have to expect you to do so.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

If you will not apologize/retract, I place that on the record. It was a condition for my reply.

For the benefit of others, my reply is that I could find no studies in the neuropsych or other medical literature of any study which has documented the basal metabolic rate level (including total cessation of metabolism due to cold)or core body temperature with the ability to dream,hallucinate, cognate (think) or develop and store memories. There is no evidence that senses such as vision or hearing operate OR not at such levels either. Therefore, I cannot say that the memories of a profoundly (and medically induced) hypothermic NDEr are possible or not. There is nothing in the literature that has studied the relationship between core body temperature and BMR and this process. Pam Reynolds was a single case and is therefore statistically insignificant although NDE researchers claim her recollections and the circumstances under which they were formed are unique. Her case is certainly not common and is not a common circumstance in the majority of NDE cases studied.

Steve, you claimed that Pam Reynolds had an NDE, despite her brain had no cellular metabolism. You, Steve.

We are not talking about how many with this condition here. We are talking about this specific case. Now, please explain how it is possible for someone to have an NDE if their brain had no cellular metabolism?

Perhaps you don't claim anymore that Pam Reynolds had an NDE?

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

You cannot argue from a paper you refuse to show us. We don't know if you distort, misrepresent or flat-out lie about the content. And with your history, we have to expect you to do so.



Steve, you claimed that Pam Reynolds had an NDE, despite her brain had no cellular metabolism. You, Steve.

We are not talking about how many with this condition here. We are talking about this specific case. Now, please explain how it is possible for someone to have an NDE if their brain had no cellular metabolism?

Perhaps you don't claim anymore that Pam Reynolds had an NDE?

Usual failure to think by Larsen. I did not claim Pam Reynolds had an NDE. Only one person did that and it was Pam Reynolds. Are you actually serious?

Dr Sabom related Pam Reynold's claim in his book. As third parties to this you or I should be interested in determining whether this was possible or not given her metabolic status during the time frame during which she attributes her claim of having an NDE ocurred. I could not find any studies that either prove or refute whether any of the elements necessary for having an NDE operate during profound medically induced hypothermia.

Have a nice day.