Prove to me that evolution is real.

AmyWilson · 12th April 2006, 11:41 PM

I always got in trouble in my early college years, because I'd always call my science teacher an idiot when he taught evolution.

Since there is NOT a shred of evidence to support evolution, PROVE to me that evolution is real. Don't give me any garbage about chimps at the zoo or your hair growing longer, I want hard evidence of evolution existing. There is not a shred of evidence to support evolution.

Everyone on the earth and everything came from Heaven and God. People came from Adam and Eve, etc, like it says in the Christian bible. Just look around the earth -- everyone knows that God created all the people, flowers, animals, blue sky, trees, etc.

Evolution is trash. I can't believe who came up with such a stupid idea. God and heaven created the earth and everyone knows it, but some people (like on this James Randi website) are too scared to admit it. I'm laughing right now at the scared James Randi people. My sides are splitting as I write this.

God and Heaven created the earth. Get over it.

buddhic · 12th April 2006, 11:54 PM

Believe what you will because you are human you are given that freedom.

The Christian Bible you refer to is an english translation (depending on the version is could be a translation of a translation) of an earlier text and for all you know the whole Creation of the Bible could be a metaphor for a greater idea.

Evolution makes no claims for the existence of God and aside from contracticing the belief that every thing just appeared it does not lay claim that such a thing as God could exist.

In the observable world nothing just appears, not even you.
You developed in your mother's womb like a flower budding from a stem.

Yeah_Right · 13th April 2006, 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by AmyWilson

I always got in trouble in my early college years, because I'd always call my science teacher an idiot when he taught evolution.

Since there is NOT a shred of evidence to support evolution, PROVE to me that evolution is real. Don't give me any garbage about chimps at the zoo or your hair growing longer, I want hard evidence of evolution existing. There is not a shred of evidence to support evolution.

Everyone on the earth and everything came from Heaven and God. People came from Adam and Eve, etc, like it says in the Christian bible. Just look around the earth -- everyone knows that God created all the people, flowers, animals, blue sky, trees, etc.

Evolution is trash. I can't believe who came up with such a stupid idea. God and heaven created the earth and everyone knows it, but some people (like on this James Randi website) are too scared to admit it. I'm laughing right now at the scared James Randi people. My sides are splitting as I write this.

God and Heaven created the earth. Get over it.

Amy, what evidence do you have that God created the heavens and the earth? No, no, don't point me to the bible, I want scientific evidence. And don't use creationist arguments to attempt to disprove evolution, lets have some scientific data to prove that the earth was created in literally seven days. Can't wait.

Wavicle · 13th April 2006, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by AmyWilson

I always got in trouble in my early college years, because I'd always call my science teacher an idiot when he taught evolution.

Chances are that science teacher spent many years intensively studying and understanding biology. What were your credentials when you challenged him?

Originally Posted by AmyWilson

Since there is NOT a shred of evidence to support evolution, PROVE to me that evolution is real. Don't give me any garbage about chimps at the zoo or your hair growing longer, I want hard evidence of evolution existing. There is not a shred of evidence to support evolution.

Tell us, with specificity, what you consider "evolution" and what you consider "hard evidence." It's annoyingly common, for those who dismiss it, to have overly complicated definitions of evolution that require an unbroken line of unquestionable proof from inorganic atoms to 3 gigabase DNA strands.

Originally Posted by AmyWilson

Everyone on the earth and everything came from Heaven and God. People came from Adam and Eve, etc, like it says in the Christian bible. Just look around the earth -- everyone knows that God created all the people, flowers, animals, blue sky, trees, etc.

Could you provide us with some hard evidence that everything can trace its roots back to this source? And when, approximately, did all this happen? (Again, please provide some evidenciary support.)

Thanks!

Zep · 13th April 2006, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by AmyWilson

...[blah blah blah]... Get over it.

Reality beginning to bite, Amy?

Zep · 13th April 2006, 12:13 AM

Just a warning for the new folks - Amy Wilson is a troll. Sort of like a smurf, but with fewer brains. We play with trolls here! Oh what fun!

H3LL · 13th April 2006, 12:16 AM

I don't think any god ever did anything.

But I'm starting to believe that the bible creates trolls.

.

Waddauno · 13th April 2006, 12:29 AM

C'mon AW . . . . Where's my "It's true"? Where's my

? Don't leave me hangin' here!

Bronze Dog · 13th April 2006, 06:17 AM

Come back when you're not spouting creationist cliches that have been refuted a thousand times.

aggle-rithm · 13th April 2006, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Waddauno

C'mon AW . . . . Where's my "It's true"? Where's my

? Don't leave me hangin' here!

Her new thing is: "Everybody knows.

"

ingoa · 13th April 2006, 06:54 AM

I know that one should not base a theory on testimonials. But I get the suspicion that reading the bible makes people stupid.

How interesting.

Molinaro · 13th April 2006, 07:12 AM

Doctors have been watching viruses evolve for many years now. Or do you believe that they are making it all up?

People are born with birth defects all the time, or do you believe that is just made up?

eri · 13th April 2006, 07:35 AM

Oh, Amy, we all know you didn't go to college. You have to graduate from high school first!

patnray · 13th April 2006, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by AmyWilson

Everyone on the earth and everything came from Heaven and God. People came from Adam and Eve, etc, like it says in the Christian bible. Just look around the earth -- everyone knows that God created all the people, flowers, animals, blue sky, trees, etc.

You have the right to believe what you want because people, not gods, have fought to establish that freedom.

The christian bible is about humanity. It is about confronting our mortality and recognizing our relationships and obligations. "God" is but a literary device to move the stories along and answer seemingly unanswerable questions. As our knowledge increases the role of "god" becomes more and more constrained.

By pretending that the bible is about "god" and not humanity the message of the stories becomes distorted. Thus, the story of Adam and Eve, a wonderful, uplifting tale about humanity acquiring knowledge, ascending above the animals, and creating paradise is perverted into a dark tale in which knowledge is evil and people are sinners simply for using their minds (the one feature that distinguishes them from animals). Of course, the christian interpretation is very useful for controlling people and gives power to the priesthood.

There is a factual error in your OP: "everyone knows that God created all the people, flowers, animals, blue sky, trees, etc. " Since I, and many others, do not "know" this, then you are wrong. No matter what motivation you imagine for our belief, it does not change that fact. But it is obvious that facts are far less important to you than beliefs.

You have a man given right to those beliefs...

Bronze Dog · 13th April 2006, 07:43 AM

Of course, if everyone knows, you should be able to tell us how everyone knows. That's how science works.

I less than three logic · 13th April 2006, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by ingoa

I know that one should not base a theory on testimonials. But I get the suspicion that reading the bible makes people stupid.

How interesting.

I think there is a hole in your suspicion. Most of these people haven’t actually read the bible. They just think they know what it says or means, and they know a small collection of verses fed to them on paper cups and other little tidbits. In fact, I would say that reading, and actually comprehending, the bible would turn more away from their religion than convert to believers.

Here is a paragraph from Thomas Paine’s Age of Reason:

Quote:

It is not the antiquity of a tale that is any evidence of its truth; on the contrary, it is a symptom of its being fabulous; for the more ancient any history pretends to be, the more it has the resemblance of a fable. The origin of every nation is buried in fabulous tradition, and that of the Jews is as much to be suspected as any other. To charge the commission of acts upon the Almighty, which, in their own nature, and by every rule of moral justice, are crimes, as all assassination is, and more especially the assassination of infants, is matter of serious concern. The Bible tells us, that those assassinations were done by the express command of God. To believe, therefore, the Bible to be true, we must unbelieve all our belief in the moral justice of God; for wherein could crying or smiling infants offend? And to read the Bible without horror, we must undo everything that is tender, sympathizing, and benevolent in the heart of man. Speaking for myself, if I had no other evidence that the Bible is fabulous than the sacrifice I must make to believe it to be true, that alone would be sufficient to determine my choice.

You can read this online in its entirety here. I would recommend it.

Roboramma · 13th April 2006, 07:50 AM

[sarcasm]
Amy, right on brother!

Those stupid scientists are always making far out claims. I think they just came up with all that BS quantum mechanics on acid.

There's not one shred of evidence that the earth orbits the sun.
There is? Yeah, right, prove it.[/sarcasm]

Because obviously if you can't understand how the evidence for that works, you won't be able to understand evolution either.

Bronze Dog · 13th April 2006, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by I less than three logic

In fact, I would say that reading, and actually comprehending, the bible would turn more away from their religion than convert to believers.

I believe John Shelby Spong said something along those lines in Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism: Biblical scholars are the least likely people to be fundies and literalists.

CACTUSJACKmankin · 13th April 2006, 08:18 AM

That depends on what evidence it would take to convince you.

1) Humans and chimpanzees share genes in not only nuclear DNA but also mitochondrial DNA which is only provided by the mother and is totally distinct from nuclear DNA.

2) What about the two dozen or so fossil Austrilopithecine and Homo species that have been found that very clearly show our transition since our common ancestor with chimpanzees.
Archaeopteryx was recently found to have a hyperextended second toe which is only found in one group of animals, dromeosaurids(velociraptor). So archaopteryx is very closely related to a dinosaur group, yet it's a bird because it had feathers and a wishbone. Thus, birds evolved from dinosaurs.
There are about five or six species of fish-amphibian transitional fossils, one of which came out last week in Nature. Each show a progressional separation of the head and shoulder, which later becomes the neck, and also shows the development of digital limbs.
There are a whole bunch of transitional species from reptile-mammal. Dimetrodon shows primitive differentiated teeth which is not found in reptiles yet is in all mammals. The much later Cynognathus had fully differentiated teeth, had a mammalian posture, and has evidence of a second palate which is only found in mammals. Probainognathus has a double jaw joint, he had a reptilian jaw joint and a mammalian jaw joint.
If these animals aren't missing links, then there is no such thing as a missing link, because these animals are almost precisely what you would predict if you were to imagine what an animal with a mix of traits would be like.

3) There's also the fact that apart from our bigger brains and walking hips and a few other more minor things we are physiologically typical primates and placental mammals. If you can point to a real biological reason why we aren't primates, I'd love to see it. And no, building skyscrapers and using a remote control are not real biological differences, those derive from our brains.

4) Genetics provides evidence other than simple comparison. There are essentially three kinds of mutation; beneficial, harmful, and indifferent. Harmful genes are usually selected against and beneficial ones are usually selected for and become dominant in the population. However, indifferent mutations have no selection pressures to be removed or refined so they just remain in the gene pool and accumulate over time. If species are related then you would predict that they would inherit these same indifferent genes, and that is precisely what we see in humans and chimps. The chances that unrelated species would have the same accumulation of indifferent genes is so astronomically low that is it essentially zero.

4) Then there's molecular biology which is kind of difficult to explain and understand but I'll try to sum up. The function of DNA is that it codes for proteins, many of which cause chemical reactions in your body to occur with enough frequency in order for you to function. Proteins are made up of amino acids. The code for producing amino acid has many redundancies in it. Therefore, the same proteins can be created using the same amino acids using a different code. Again, you would predict that related species would inherit the same code and that the chances of unrelated species having the same codes is very close to zero. Again this is what we see.

If you reject all of this evidence out of hand then you are just being a stubborn creationist and there is no fossil or gene or piece of evidence we would ever find that would convince you.

BTW, The idea that the earth and universe are billions of years old is foundational to biology, geology, and astronomy. Abiogenesis is a chemical reality because all life is chemical in nature and organic chemistry and inorganic chemistry obey the same chemical laws. And Radiometric half-lives operate on and are measure with the laws of physics. So, if you are rejecting these ideas you are essentially rejecting all of mainstream science.

edited for grammatical errors.

Jimbo07 · 13th April 2006, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by AmyWilson

God and Heaven created the earth.

Remarkable how, ignoring science, AW doesn't even know theology!

I think AW was a classmate of Philip J. Fry's at Coney Island Community College.

Bronze Dog · 13th April 2006, 08:24 AM

Keep your arms and legs inside the desk at all times.

JohnF_73 · 13th April 2006, 08:28 AM

Anyone want to take a bet that Amy hasn't (and will never) conduct the Astral Projection test which she said she was going to do?

Anybody?

Bronze Dog · 13th April 2006, 08:30 AM

Wouldn't we need someone to bet that she will take the test?

I suppose if we bugged her about it enough, she'd do it, but she'd fail, and try desperately to rationalize that failure.

alfaniner · 13th April 2006, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by AmyWilson

Prove to me that evolution is real.

First, prove to me that you are real.

Or at least that you are what you say you are, my "college-educated, adult woman."

Pauliesonne · 13th April 2006, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by AmyWilson

Since there is NOT a shred of evidence to support evolution, . Get over it.

Verbal diahorrea, I think so.

Bronze Dog · 13th April 2006, 08:55 AM

How about this, Amy: Tell us what it would take to convince you.

DJ Hexadecibel · 13th April 2006, 09:13 AM

You'd think that IF there were a creator. . .don't you think that it would be POSSIBLE, nay, FEASIBLE, that said creator (aliens, God, Morgan Freeman) would use evolution as a TOOL to bring about the wondrous creation known as The World? Err.. . .that is, if it IS a creation.

Dr Adequate · 13th April 2006, 09:55 AM

But Amy ... we know you are an idiot troll.

I have answered politely and at length to real Young Earth Creationists

You are nothing but a shambling halfwitted idiot troll trying to bait your betters.

Pause for just a moment to consider what a stupid snivelling creature you are, and then go away.

ImaginalDisc · 13th April 2006, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

But Amy ... we know you are an idiot troll.

I have answered politely and at length to real Young Earth Creationists

You are nothing but a shambling halfwitted idiot troll trying to bait your betters.

Pause for just a moment to consider what a stupid snivelling creature you are, and then go away.

Does that make her a shambling haflwitted idiot troll in an exstistential crisis?

Dr Adequate · 13th April 2006, 11:02 AM

Well it might have some sort of ... "existential crisis", you say?

It behaves like an idiot in order that people should think that it's an idiot. Then it is pleased because its retarded behavior convinces a few people that it is a genuine retard.

What sort of person spends their spare time doing that?

Oh, right, an idiot with retarded social capabilities. Yeah.

It might realize that.

It would have to grow up first.

cyborg · 13th April 2006, 11:05 AM

Seeing you rip on this troll is entertainment enough Dr Adequate.

Trantor · 13th April 2006, 11:10 AM

This is a funny thread. It's hard to tell if Amy is a serious fundy or just likes attention or perhaps both.

Amy, if you want to know about the truth of the Bible, try reading it.

I once thought that the messages in the Bible came from God, that is until I actually read it for myself. If God actually had anything to do with the transmission of the Bible text, then God must be really screwed up. The whole book is an excercise in selfishness. Even Jesus who taught unselfishness, makes/teaches numerous selfish acts that make no sense at all. Read it and see. Ask youself - is this selfish or unselfish as you read the stories.

After reading the book cover to cover, I was shocked and amazed at just how stupid I had been. There is no way that this badly written text came from anything other than Man. And when I say Man, I mean men , NOT women. Even the institution of slavery is ok by Bible standards. How about the role of women in society?

While you are at it, why don't you ask your preacher about the history of the Bible. How did it come to be. Who wrote what. There is a lot of real historical information out there(or in many cases lack of), if you just dare to look.

ImaginalDisc · 13th April 2006, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

Well it might have some sort of ... "existential crisis", you say?

As the late Victor Borge used to say, "It's your language, I'm just trying to speak it."

Outhere · 13th April 2006, 11:20 AM

I have talked with my psychic and she tells me "Amy Wilson" is an anagram for "Now I am Sly." This person is obviously a 40+ nerd with a beard, glasses and a beer belly who would like to laugh his ass off at the debates he starts, but of course that won't work. Diet, exercise, diet exercise!

Outhere · 13th April 2006, 11:24 AM

Everybody knows!

It's True!

Zep · 13th April 2006, 05:04 PM

"Amy Wilson" is merely a troll. Who gets worked up over a smurf?

UrsulaV · 13th April 2006, 06:23 PM

I think before anybody tries to prove evolution is real for her benefit, Amy would have to prove she was genuinely interested, and not starting up yet another thread so that people will reply and acknowledge her existence.

UserGoogol · 13th April 2006, 06:54 PM

Genetic mutations carefully pruned through the proccess of natural selection allows countless species of complex organisms to evolve from a single self-replicating polymer.

It's true.

lostnick3 · 13th April 2006, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Trantor

While you are at it, why don't you ask your preacher about the history of the Bible. How did it come to be. Who wrote what. There is a lot of real historical information out there(or in many cases lack of), if you just dare to look.

the old testament was taken from jewish oral traditions and the new testament was codified from tracks and letters by Constatine the pagen and his possee 300 years after the time of Jesus. in any case is appears the editors left the important stuff out. in the Jewish oral tradition Lilith was Adams first wife. but it apparently didn't make the final cut.

hellaeon · 13th April 2006, 08:57 PM

amy you keyboard warrior you....

12th April 2006, 11:41 PM	#1
AmyWilson Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 350	Prove to me that evolution is real. I always got in trouble in my early college years, because I'd always call my science teacher an idiot when he taught evolution. Since there is NOT a shred of evidence to support evolution, PROVE to me that evolution is real. Don't give me any garbage about chimps at the zoo or your hair growing longer, I want hard evidence of evolution existing. There is not a shred of evidence to support evolution. Everyone on the earth and everything came from Heaven and God. People came from Adam and Eve, etc, like it says in the Christian bible. Just look around the earth -- everyone knows that God created all the people, flowers, animals, blue sky, trees, etc. Evolution is trash. I can't believe who came up with such a stupid idea. God and heaven created the earth and everyone knows it, but some people (like on this James Randi website) are too scared to admit it. I'm laughing right now at the scared James Randi people. My sides are splitting as I write this. God and Heaven created the earth. Get over it.

12th April 2006, 11:54 PM	#2
buddhic New Blood Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1	God Created the Jelly Beans, You Ate Them. Believe what you will because you are human you are given that freedom. The Christian Bible you refer to is an english translation (depending on the version is could be a translation of a translation) of an earlier text and for all you know the whole Creation of the Bible could be a metaphor for a greater idea. Evolution makes no claims for the existence of God and aside from contracticing the belief that every thing just appeared it does not lay claim that such a thing as God could exist. In the observable world nothing just appears, not even you. You developed in your mother's womb like a flower budding from a stem.
buddhic New Blood Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1

13th April 2006, 12:03 AM	#3
Yeah_Right Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 640	Originally Posted by AmyWilson I always got in trouble in my early college years, because I'd always call my science teacher an idiot when he taught evolution. Since there is NOT a shred of evidence to support evolution, PROVE to me that evolution is real. Don't give me any garbage about chimps at the zoo or your hair growing longer, I want hard evidence of evolution existing. There is not a shred of evidence to support evolution. Everyone on the earth and everything came from Heaven and God. People came from Adam and Eve, etc, like it says in the Christian bible. Just look around the earth -- everyone knows that God created all the people, flowers, animals, blue sky, trees, etc. Evolution is trash. I can't believe who came up with such a stupid idea. God and heaven created the earth and everyone knows it, but some people (like on this James Randi website) are too scared to admit it. I'm laughing right now at the scared James Randi people. My sides are splitting as I write this. God and Heaven created the earth. Get over it. Amy, what evidence do you have that God created the heavens and the earth? No, no, don't point me to the bible, I want scientific evidence. And don't use creationist arguments to attempt to disprove evolution, lets have some scientific data to prove that the earth was created in literally seven days. Can't wait.
Yeah_Right Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 640	__________________ I didn't believe in reincarnation in a past life either. CEO_ESQ:"Something about pyramids seems to cause a shutdown of critical faculties in certain people."

13th April 2006, 12:11 AM	#4
Wavicle Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	Originally Posted by AmyWilson I always got in trouble in my early college years, because I'd always call my science teacher an idiot when he taught evolution. Chances are that science teacher spent many years intensively studying and understanding biology. What were your credentials when you challenged him? Originally Posted by AmyWilson Since there is NOT a shred of evidence to support evolution, PROVE to me that evolution is real. Don't give me any garbage about chimps at the zoo or your hair growing longer, I want hard evidence of evolution existing. There is not a shred of evidence to support evolution. Tell us, with specificity, what you consider "evolution" and what you consider "hard evidence." It's annoyingly common, for those who dismiss it, to have overly complicated definitions of evolution that require an unbroken line of unquestionable proof from inorganic atoms to 3 gigabase DNA strands. Originally Posted by AmyWilson Everyone on the earth and everything came from Heaven and God. People came from Adam and Eve, etc, like it says in the Christian bible. Just look around the earth -- everyone knows that God created all the people, flowers, animals, blue sky, trees, etc. Could you provide us with some hard evidence that everything can trace its roots back to this source? And when, approximately, did all this happen? (Again, please provide some evidenciary support.) Thanks!
Wavicle Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341

13th April 2006, 12:11 AM	#5
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	Originally Posted by AmyWilson ...[blah blah blah]... Get over it. Reality beginning to bite, Amy?
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

13th April 2006, 12:13 AM	#6
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	Just a warning for the new folks - Amy Wilson is a troll. Sort of like a smurf, but with fewer brains. We play with trolls here! Oh what fun!
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

13th April 2006, 12:16 AM	#7
H3LL Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: (ləʊˈkeɪʃən) - n. 1. a site or position; situation. Posts: 4,976	I don't think any god ever did anything. But I'm starting to believe that the bible creates trolls. .
	__________________ "I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it". - PTerry Top 10 Reasons Why I Procrastinate: 1.

13th April 2006, 12:29 AM	#8
Waddauno New Blood Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 21	C'mon AW . . . . Where's my "It's true"? Where's my ? Don't leave me hangin' here!
Waddauno New Blood Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 21

13th April 2006, 06:17 AM	#9
Bronze Dog Copper Alloy Canid Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Homebrew D&D Campaign Setting Posts: 5,007	Come back when you're not spouting creationist cliches that have been refuted a thousand times.
	__________________ Stop Sylvia Browne Warning: Beware of contaminated water supplies! Suspected source of contamination: Sarah-I A non-Rockstar Rambler and dissector of Doggerel

13th April 2006, 06:20 AM	#10
aggle-rithm Ardent Formulist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14,298	Originally Posted by Waddauno C'mon AW . . . . Where's my "It's true"? Where's my ? Don't leave me hangin' here! Her new thing is: "Everybody knows. "
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

13th April 2006, 06:54 AM	#11
ingoa Surfing on the relativistic brain wave Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Old Europe Posts: 492	I know that one should not base a theory on testimonials. But I get the suspicion that reading the bible makes people stupid. How interesting.
	__________________ Suum cuique I have no prejudices. I hate everbody!

13th April 2006, 07:12 AM	#12
Molinaro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 3,050	Doctors have been watching viruses evolve for many years now. Or do you believe that they are making it all up? People are born with birth defects all the time, or do you believe that is just made up?
	__________________ 100% Cannuck!

13th April 2006, 07:35 AM	#13
eri Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Somewhere nearby, pointing and laughing. Posts: 459	Oh, Amy, we all know you didn't go to college. You have to graduate from high school first!
	__________________ I wish I would have a real tragic love affair and get so bummed out that I'd just quit my job and become a bum for a few years, because I was thinking about doing that anyway. -Jack Handy

13th April 2006, 07:39 AM	#14
patnray Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 1,008	Originally Posted by AmyWilson Everyone on the earth and everything came from Heaven and God. People came from Adam and Eve, etc, like it says in the Christian bible. Just look around the earth -- everyone knows that God created all the people, flowers, animals, blue sky, trees, etc. You have the right to believe what you want because people, not gods, have fought to establish that freedom. The christian bible is about humanity. It is about confronting our mortality and recognizing our relationships and obligations. "God" is but a literary device to move the stories along and answer seemingly unanswerable questions. As our knowledge increases the role of "god" becomes more and more constrained. By pretending that the bible is about "god" and not humanity the message of the stories becomes distorted. Thus, the story of Adam and Eve, a wonderful, uplifting tale about humanity acquiring knowledge, ascending above the animals, and creating paradise is perverted into a dark tale in which knowledge is evil and people are sinners simply for using their minds (the one feature that distinguishes them from animals). Of course, the christian interpretation is very useful for controlling people and gives power to the priesthood. There is a factual error in your OP: "everyone knows that God created all the people, flowers, animals, blue sky, trees, etc. " Since I, and many others, do not "know" this, then you are wrong. No matter what motivation you imagine for our belief, it does not change that fact. But it is obvious that facts are far less important to you than beliefs. You have a man given right to those beliefs...
	__________________ Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali A powerful and moving story of a strong and courageous woman’s struggle to free herself from a culture that treats women as property. Despite repeated death threats from religious zealots, she campaigns tirelessly for the rights of Muslim women. A tearful, chilling, yet inspiring, tale of personal triumph and dedication to free expression. Last edited by patnray; 13th April 2006 at 07:43 AM.

13th April 2006, 07:43 AM	#15
Bronze Dog Copper Alloy Canid Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Homebrew D&D Campaign Setting Posts: 5,007	Of course, if everyone knows, you should be able to tell us how everyone knows. That's how science works.
	__________________ Stop Sylvia Browne Warning: Beware of contaminated water supplies! Suspected source of contamination: Sarah-I A non-Rockstar Rambler and dissector of Doggerel

13th April 2006, 07:43 AM	#16
I less than three logic Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: St Cloud, MN, USA Posts: 1,464	Originally Posted by ingoa I know that one should not base a theory on testimonials. But I get the suspicion that reading the bible makes people stupid. How interesting. I think there is a hole in your suspicion. Most of these people haven’t actually read the bible. They just think they know what it says or means, and they know a small collection of verses fed to them on paper cups and other little tidbits. In fact, I would say that reading, and actually comprehending, the bible would turn more away from their religion than convert to believers. Here is a paragraph from Thomas Paine’s Age of Reason: Quote: It is not the antiquity of a tale that is any evidence of its truth; on the contrary, it is a symptom of its being fabulous; for the more ancient any history pretends to be, the more it has the resemblance of a fable. The origin of every nation is buried in fabulous tradition, and that of the Jews is as much to be suspected as any other. To charge the commission of acts upon the Almighty, which, in their own nature, and by every rule of moral justice, are crimes, as all assassination is, and more especially the assassination of infants, is matter of serious concern. The Bible tells us, that those assassinations were done by the express command of God. To believe, therefore, the Bible to be true, we must unbelieve all our belief in the moral justice of God; for wherein could crying or smiling infants offend? And to read the Bible without horror, we must undo everything that is tender, sympathizing, and benevolent in the heart of man. Speaking for myself, if I had no other evidence that the Bible is fabulous than the sacrifice I must make to believe it to be true, that alone would be sufficient to determine my choice. You can read this online in its entirety here. I would recommend it.
	__________________ “There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.” - Carl Sagan “The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball ninety million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.” – Douglas Adams

13th April 2006, 07:50 AM	#17
Roboramma Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 7,131	[sarcasm] Amy, right on brother! Those stupid scientists are always making far out claims. I think they just came up with all that BS quantum mechanics on acid. There's not one shred of evidence that the earth orbits the sun. There is? Yeah, right, prove it.[/sarcasm] Because obviously if you can't understand how the evidence for that works, you won't be able to understand evolution either.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

13th April 2006, 07:51 AM	#18
Bronze Dog Copper Alloy Canid Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Homebrew D&D Campaign Setting Posts: 5,007	Originally Posted by I less than three logic In fact, I would say that reading, and actually comprehending, the bible would turn more away from their religion than convert to believers. I believe John Shelby Spong said something along those lines in Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism: Biblical scholars are the least likely people to be fundies and literalists.
	__________________ Stop Sylvia Browne Warning: Beware of contaminated water supplies! Suspected source of contamination: Sarah-I A non-Rockstar Rambler and dissector of Doggerel

13th April 2006, 08:18 AM	#19
CACTUSJACKmankin Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 279	That depends on what evidence it would take to convince you. 1) Humans and chimpanzees share genes in not only nuclear DNA but also mitochondrial DNA which is only provided by the mother and is totally distinct from nuclear DNA. 2) What about the two dozen or so fossil Austrilopithecine and Homo species that have been found that very clearly show our transition since our common ancestor with chimpanzees. Archaeopteryx was recently found to have a hyperextended second toe which is only found in one group of animals, dromeosaurids(velociraptor). So archaopteryx is very closely related to a dinosaur group, yet it's a bird because it had feathers and a wishbone. Thus, birds evolved from dinosaurs. There are about five or six species of fish-amphibian transitional fossils, one of which came out last week in Nature. Each show a progressional separation of the head and shoulder, which later becomes the neck, and also shows the development of digital limbs. There are a whole bunch of transitional species from reptile-mammal. Dimetrodon shows primitive differentiated teeth which is not found in reptiles yet is in all mammals. The much later Cynognathus had fully differentiated teeth, had a mammalian posture, and has evidence of a second palate which is only found in mammals. Probainognathus has a double jaw joint, he had a reptilian jaw joint and a mammalian jaw joint. If these animals aren't missing links, then there is no such thing as a missing link, because these animals are almost precisely what you would predict if you were to imagine what an animal with a mix of traits would be like. 3) There's also the fact that apart from our bigger brains and walking hips and a few other more minor things we are physiologically typical primates and placental mammals. If you can point to a real biological reason why we aren't primates, I'd love to see it. And no, building skyscrapers and using a remote control are not real biological differences, those derive from our brains. 4) Genetics provides evidence other than simple comparison. There are essentially three kinds of mutation; beneficial, harmful, and indifferent. Harmful genes are usually selected against and beneficial ones are usually selected for and become dominant in the population. However, indifferent mutations have no selection pressures to be removed or refined so they just remain in the gene pool and accumulate over time. If species are related then you would predict that they would inherit these same indifferent genes, and that is precisely what we see in humans and chimps. The chances that unrelated species would have the same accumulation of indifferent genes is so astronomically low that is it essentially zero. 4) Then there's molecular biology which is kind of difficult to explain and understand but I'll try to sum up. The function of DNA is that it codes for proteins, many of which cause chemical reactions in your body to occur with enough frequency in order for you to function. Proteins are made up of amino acids. The code for producing amino acid has many redundancies in it. Therefore, the same proteins can be created using the same amino acids using a different code. Again, you would predict that related species would inherit the same code and that the chances of unrelated species having the same codes is very close to zero. Again this is what we see. If you reject all of this evidence out of hand then you are just being a stubborn creationist and there is no fossil or gene or piece of evidence we would ever find that would convince you. BTW, The idea that the earth and universe are billions of years old is foundational to biology, geology, and astronomy. Abiogenesis is a chemical reality because all life is chemical in nature and organic chemistry and inorganic chemistry obey the same chemical laws. And Radiometric half-lives operate on and are measure with the laws of physics. So, if you are rejecting these ideas you are essentially rejecting all of mainstream science. edited for grammatical errors.
	Last edited by CACTUSJACKmankin; 13th April 2006 at 08:23 AM.

13th April 2006, 08:22 AM	#20
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,426	Originally Posted by AmyWilson God and Heaven created the earth. Remarkable how, ignoring science, AW doesn't even know theology! I think AW was a classmate of Philip J. Fry's at Coney Island Community College.
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,426	__________________ This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key

13th April 2006, 08:24 AM	#21
Bronze Dog Copper Alloy Canid Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Homebrew D&D Campaign Setting Posts: 5,007	Keep your arms and legs inside the desk at all times.
	__________________ Stop Sylvia Browne Warning: Beware of contaminated water supplies! Suspected source of contamination: Sarah-I A non-Rockstar Rambler and dissector of Doggerel

13th April 2006, 08:28 AM	#22
JohnF_73 Thinker Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 151	Anyone want to take a bet that Amy hasn't (and will never) conduct the Astral Projection test which she said she was going to do? Anybody?
JohnF_73 Thinker Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 151

13th April 2006, 08:30 AM	#23
Bronze Dog Copper Alloy Canid Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Homebrew D&D Campaign Setting Posts: 5,007	Wouldn't we need someone to bet that she will take the test? I suppose if we bugged her about it enough, she'd do it, but she'd fail, and try desperately to rationalize that failure.
	__________________ Stop Sylvia Browne Warning: Beware of contaminated water supplies! Suspected source of contamination: Sarah-I A non-Rockstar Rambler and dissector of Doggerel

13th April 2006, 08:41 AM	#24
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 11,463	Originally Posted by AmyWilson Prove to me that evolution is real. First, prove to me that you are real. Or at least that you are what you say you are, my "college-educated, adult woman."
	__________________ Science doesn't lie.

13th April 2006, 08:54 AM	#25
Pauliesonne Bi Gi Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: A small town in Northern Ireland called Limavady. Posts: 2,691	Originally Posted by AmyWilson Since there is NOT a shred of evidence to support evolution, . Get over it. Verbal diahorrea, I think so.

13th April 2006, 08:55 AM	#26
Bronze Dog Copper Alloy Canid Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Homebrew D&D Campaign Setting Posts: 5,007	How about this, Amy: Tell us what it would take to convince you.
	__________________ Stop Sylvia Browne Warning: Beware of contaminated water supplies! Suspected source of contamination: Sarah-I A non-Rockstar Rambler and dissector of Doggerel

13th April 2006, 09:13 AM	#27
DJ Hexadecibel Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Suburbia, Pa. Posts: 136	You'd think that IF there were a creator. . .don't you think that it would be POSSIBLE, nay, FEASIBLE, that said creator (aliens, God, Morgan Freeman) would use evolution as a TOOL to bring about the wondrous creation known as The World? Err.. . .that is, if it IS a creation.

13th April 2006, 09:55 AM	#28
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,897	But Amy ... we know you are an idiot troll. I have answered politely and at length to real Young Earth Creationists You are nothing but a shambling halfwitted idiot troll trying to bait your betters. Pause for just a moment to consider what a stupid snivelling creature you are, and then go away.

13th April 2006, 09:59 AM	#29
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Dr Adequate But Amy ... we know you are an idiot troll. I have answered politely and at length to real Young Earth Creationists You are nothing but a shambling halfwitted idiot troll trying to bait your betters. Pause for just a moment to consider what a stupid snivelling creature you are, and then go away. Does that make her a shambling haflwitted idiot troll in an exstistential crisis?
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

13th April 2006, 11:02 AM	#30
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,897	Well it might have some sort of ... "existential crisis", you say? It behaves like an idiot in order that people should think that it's an idiot. Then it is pleased because its retarded behavior convinces a few people that it is a genuine retard. What sort of person spends their spare time doing that? Oh, right, an idiot with retarded social capabilities. Yeah. It might realize that. It would have to grow up first.
	Last edited by Dr Adequate; 13th April 2006 at 11:05 AM.

13th April 2006, 11:05 AM	#31
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974	Seeing you rip on this troll is entertainment enough Dr Adequate.
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974

13th April 2006, 11:10 AM	#32
Trantor Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 526	This is a funny thread. It's hard to tell if Amy is a serious fundy or just likes attention or perhaps both. Amy, if you want to know about the truth of the Bible, try reading it. I once thought that the messages in the Bible came from God, that is until I actually read it for myself. If God actually had anything to do with the transmission of the Bible text, then God must be really screwed up. The whole book is an excercise in selfishness. Even Jesus who taught unselfishness, makes/teaches numerous selfish acts that make no sense at all. Read it and see. Ask youself - is this selfish or unselfish as you read the stories. After reading the book cover to cover, I was shocked and amazed at just how stupid I had been. There is no way that this badly written text came from anything other than Man. And when I say Man, I mean men , NOT women. Even the institution of slavery is ok by Bible standards. How about the role of women in society? While you are at it, why don't you ask your preacher about the history of the Bible. How did it come to be. Who wrote what. There is a lot of real historical information out there(or in many cases lack of), if you just dare to look.
Trantor Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 526

13th April 2006, 11:17 AM	#33
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Dr Adequate Well it might have some sort of ... "existential crisis", you say? As the late Victor Borge used to say, "It's your language, I'm just trying to speak it."
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

13th April 2006, 11:20 AM	#34
Outhere Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 145	Anagrams I have talked with my psychic and she tells me "Amy Wilson" is an anagram for "Now I am Sly." This person is obviously a 40+ nerd with a beard, glasses and a beer belly who would like to laugh his ass off at the debates he starts, but of course that won't work. Diet, exercise, diet exercise!

13th April 2006, 11:24 AM	#35
Outhere Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 145	P S Everybody knows! It's True!