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Tags woobusters , microwaved

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Old 15th April 2006, 04:45 PM   #1
CplFerro
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Microwaved water - woobusters have at it...

I've been hearing more and more about purported subtle dangers of microwaving - maybe not so subtle if you're the plant in the experiment below. Thoughts?

Microwaved Water - See What It Does To Plants
http://www.rense.com/general70/microwaved.htm
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Old 15th April 2006, 04:56 PM   #2
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I wish I had a microwave so I could try that experiment for myself.

I'm sceptical to the claims, though. I don't see why microwaving water would cause it to be harmful to plants.
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Old 15th April 2006, 04:59 PM   #3
rudar
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for the first photo, would the differing shapes of the vessels be a factor?

For the potted ones, first, is it just me or does the left pot's soil always look wetter? Overwatering, maybe? Also, where do the leaves *go*? Nine days wouldn't be enough time for the leaves in the first photo to completely decompose, so are they being pruned or eaten or something?

And lastly, even if the results are in fact due to the quality of the water, I'd guess that leaching from a ``plastic cup'' would be a more likely culprit than microwaves ``changing the energy or structure'' of the water...
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Old 15th April 2006, 05:23 PM   #4
Anders W. Bonde
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Riiiight, then

Protocol - replication - peer review.

These are just some pretty pictures on a website - where is the science?

Like the homeopathetics being challenged to tell their "high potency remedy" from stock solvent, I'd like to see someone tell microwaved water apart from non-microwaved water by any method, and repeated to establish statistical significance...
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Old 15th April 2006, 05:40 PM   #5
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Anders has it right. And I would add: What is the mechanism for this effect? The only known thing RF (radio frequency) microwaves do is excite molecules of water and the resulting friction makes the water get hot. The same thing happens when you heat water on a stove. Is something different going on with microwaved water? I doubt it, but let's see the scientific evidence that there is. Nobel prize, fame, and maybe $1MM from JREF await.
Meanwhile I intend to continue boiling water in the microwave for coffee and tea and see if anything eventually "falls off".
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Old 15th April 2006, 05:50 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Hamradioguy View Post
Meanwhile I intend to continue boiling water in the microwave for coffee and tea and see if anything eventually "falls off".
eventualy everything falls off.

I feel a home experiment coming on, I'll pick up some cress seeds after the weekend, nice and fast growing.
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Old 15th April 2006, 08:28 PM   #7
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It's just a simple water chemistry thing: one of the things that happens when you boil water is that its degree of hardness is lowered. The excess minerals precipitate out as scale. And very hard water can injure plants. Cite. And it's difficult to get water in a microwave to a full rolling boil for long enough to precipitate out the minerals, especially if you're a little girl doing a science project.

My educated guess is that the kid just got her microwave water to "hot enough for instant coffee" boiling and then took it out of the microwave, and that the top-of-the-stove water was allowed to come to a full rolling boil for long enough to change the hardness, and that thus her "purified" water really was "purified" and really was healthier for the plants.

And she must have some really hard water comin' out of her tap, judging by how poorly the "microwave" plants did with the tap water as-is.
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Old 15th April 2006, 08:34 PM   #8
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Good point.

Where was the control plant? There ought to be a plant water by basic tap water, unboiled.

That is if someone wishes to replicate...
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Old 15th April 2006, 09:39 PM   #9
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After looking at day nine photos, the needle on my BS detector is moving.
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Old 15th April 2006, 10:01 PM   #10
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And another thing, running the experiment on just one cutting per water sample and on one type of plant probably doesn't mean much. Run it again using a number of cuttings of different types of plants, then we'll talk.

And how about a control? And how about a double-blind?
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Old 15th April 2006, 11:06 PM   #11
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Anything Jeff Rense says is worth doubting.
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Old 15th April 2006, 11:08 PM   #12
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Sheesh, I thought everyone knew a Rense should be followed by a spit.
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Old 15th April 2006, 11:24 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Goshawk View Post
It's just a simple water chemistry thing: one of the things that happens when you boil water is that its degree of hardness is lowered.
Before I looked at your screen name, I read your post and said, "gosh, that's interesting." And it is, Gosh.
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Old 16th April 2006, 12:27 AM   #14
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I'd be extremely surprised if 1) the water was hard enough to kill a plant in 9 days and 2) boiling even could remove a significant amount of salts. Most salt wouldn't be removed by boiling, as Goshawk's site says. I certainly can't imagine why soluble salts would be removed.

I figure the girl simply did a bad/unlucky job of transplanting the microwaved-water plant. Although looking at the pictures it seems like she mangled the microwave plant. The leaves look like they were cut and stems keep getting removed.
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Old 16th April 2006, 12:39 AM   #15
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So it's a setup? Maybe there's not even a "girl" involved?

Umm...what a load of crap???

If the plant was truly "sick" from the roots up, all the leaves would be affected more or less at the same time and to the same extent. But as the days go by, the remaining leaves and stems still seem to be nice and plump and green... And the bare shoots left behind look to have nice square ends too, instead of being rotted or dried - could they have been cut, by any chance?? Double hmmmm...


*SNORT*
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Old 16th April 2006, 12:43 AM   #16
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Was the water allowed ample time to cool off before being poured over the plant?
That day nine one looks a tad like it's been boiled slowly.....
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Old 16th April 2006, 01:00 AM   #17
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I received an email from a friend today on this subject. This was my response to him. It was just off the top of my head. I'm a gardener. I start clippings in water and soil medium all the time.

Quote:
Take a closer look at those pictures. The clippings
are not in indentical containers or vases. The wad of
paper around the stems are different. That, in
itself, could cause the differences shown. There's no
purpose for the wad of paper except to cover the stem,
which could hide differences, such as hair roots or a
pounded stem. A pounded stem or hair roots could
cause the non-microwave cutting to take up more water
and appear more perkier.

For the experiment to show anything at all, the stems
would have to be in identical vases with no wad of
paper. Just cuttings in water, visible to the naked
eye.

Look at the potted plants. The soil medium is clearly
different. Also, where are the dead or dying leaves
in the microwave plant? A leave does not disappear,
even if it's frozen or poisoned. It turns yellow,
wilts, withers, and turns brown, all of it clearly
visible. If there are toxic salts in the medium, the
plant leaves may turn brown from the edges in, but they
don't disappear.

The microwaved plant has clearly been trimmed or
pruned a little bit more for each picture.

The photos and the story are fake. But I think I'll
microwave some water and try this out with philodenden
cuttings. I'll let you know what happens.
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Old 16th April 2006, 01:14 AM   #18
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there were several articles in Mother Earth News that ran in the early 80's touting the wonders of boiled water and starting seedlings from experiments done by the Russians.
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Old 16th April 2006, 02:53 AM   #19
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The Science Teacher Goofed !

If there's anything I can't stand, it's an unresolved scientific mystery!

Did someone pray for one of the plants? That could explain everything!

I'm assuming the details of the experiment were correctly stated and no deliberate fraud involved.

Rense is not on my list of most credible sites, but Rense does not appear to be the original source of the information.

It's an interesting experiment, but unfortunately, not controlled well enough to begin to explain the differences. Her science teacher appears to have failed in teaching her the proper way to test a theory from square one, nearly defeating the purpose of the whole effort. Disappointing. Without proper scientific methodology and controls, the experiment is only interesting, but little more.

The correct methods of science should be taught to kids and applied from the very beginning or their education is seriously flawed and undoing the damage of that flawed education is far more difficult than having done it right in the first place. There really are no valid shortcuts in teaching proper science - especially for kids - considering how impressionable they are.

From what I understand about the physics of how a microwave heats water, there is nothing sufficient in that by itself to adequately explain the apparent differences in the plants' growth.

There are several visible differences in the photographs I would like to see addressed.

I would especially be interested in a comparative chemical analysis of the water used for both plants, just in case the plastic cup used in the microwave had some influence in the result by chemically altering the water or some residual leftover chemical was lingering in the microwave from previous use.

I would have used clean, identical Pyrex beakers to heat the water in both cases.

It's worthy of further experimentation - only done correctly the next time.

If she were my kid, I'd have a serious discussion with her science teacher!
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Old 16th April 2006, 04:26 AM   #20
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One other thing - people using hydroponics for, um, 'special' plants sometimes microwave the soil they use to sterilise it. Plants apparently still grow in this - see http://users.lycaeum.org/~sky/data/mjgrowers.html or http://www.cannabisuk.com/cannabis_germination.htm for example.

Actually yeah, from the pics it does look like the microwaved water is so nasty that the plant watered with it cut off its own leaves in protest
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Old 16th April 2006, 07:13 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by JayT View Post
Did someone pray for one of the plants? That could explain everything!

I'll see your woo and raise you a woo. The problem of the microwaved water is compounded by the labels on the outside of the pots. Everyone who saw "What the bleep do we know" knows that attaching words to the outside of containers produces quantum changes on the objects inside the containers.

-----------

If only there were a way to ask the plant directly what happened - http://www.xenu.net/archive/techniques/tomato.jpg

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Old 16th April 2006, 07:16 AM   #22
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Nonono.NO! They are forgetting to add the 30c homeopathic plant suplement. And the Quantum Magnetic brass bracelet as well. Don't these people know ANYTHING?

(My brain actually hurts now.....)
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Old 16th April 2006, 08:02 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by jon View Post
Actually yeah, from the pics it does look like the microwaved water is so nasty that the plant watered with it cut off its own leaves in protest
That's a bloody good point, I didn't notice that until you pointed it out.
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Old 16th April 2006, 08:04 AM   #24
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Look closely at the soil level and the inside of the pot of the microwaved water plant in the day 3 photo and the day 9 photo. This is not the same pot. The day 3 photo shows a pot with no "ledge" around the inside. The day 9 photo shows a pot with a "ledge" around it. And actually, I think I can see part of the ledge in the day 5 photo. I say she did something to the microwaved water plant that included repotting it somewhere around day 4.

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Old 16th April 2006, 08:13 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Dilb View Post
I'd be extremely surprised if 1) the water was hard enough to kill a plant in 9 days
The water where I live is probably the hardest in the uk since it is flitered through chalk and posebly limestone. Most pot plants do ok with it.
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Old 16th April 2006, 08:34 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by meg View Post
I say she did something to the microwaved water plant that included repotting it somewhere around day 4.
No. The soil gradually settled from watering. You can see the ledge in the purified water pot in the Day 9 photo. The air bubbles under the adhesive tape remain consistent through out the series. It's the same pot.

I agree about the mysterious disappearing leaves and overwatering. I've killed plenty of houseplants in my lifetime and they don't end up looking like that. My latest victim was a rubber plant--dead leaves and twigs everywhere. Oh the humanity!
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Old 16th April 2006, 08:45 AM   #27
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I agree it's the same pot. I could also believe the pictures were taken on the same day. The plant on the right looks virtually identical in the first three pictures. I can't decide if that's reasonable or not.

I wonder what the science fair judge wrote on the comment sheet. I'm sure it was tactful and kind, but I bet it included some suggestions on how better to structure the experiment.

Edited to add: the granddad mentions some of the drawbacks of the experiment. I hope he suggested that his granddaughter repeat the experiment with more samples and with blinding -not knowing which water was which. A sixth-grader should be old enough to repeat the experiment for her own interest and educational enrichment.

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Old 16th April 2006, 08:57 AM   #28
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The outer pot may be the same, but I think the liner is different. Perhaps it is a lighting or shading thing. But, it seems in the day 3 photo that there is a shallow area behind the plant that should show a ledge, but does not.
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Old 16th April 2006, 10:47 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by flume View Post
I agree it's the same pot. I could also believe the pictures were taken on the same day. The plant on the right looks virtually identical in the first three pictures. I can't decide if that's reasonable or not.
Not only does it look pretty much identical in the first three photos (days 1, 3 and 5) the one on the right doesn't seem to have grown at all during the nine days, although it's hard to tell because the day 7 photo is taken at a different angle and both pots appear to have been rotated slightly in the day 9 photo.
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Old 16th April 2006, 11:04 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by meg View Post
The outer pot may be the same, but I think the liner is different. Perhaps it is a lighting or shading thing. But, it seems in the day 3 photo that there is a shallow area behind the plant that should show a ledge, but does not.
Rather than a different pot or liner, that grey area behind the plant looks to me a bit as if there's been some photoshopping going on.

Also, look at the day 1 photo. The compost immediately around the image of the leaves is a more brownish colour than the compost around the edges of the pot.

In fact, the day 1 and and day 5 photos look totally identical to me, apart from the plant in the left-hand pot. Does anyone have the ability to superimpose the two photos to check this?
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Old 16th April 2006, 11:21 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
In fact, the day 1 and and day 5 photos look totally identical to me, apart from the plant in the left-hand pot. Does anyone have the ability to superimpose the two photos to check this?
I think you're right. I'm not too good at this, but here is day 5 superimposed over day 1 with 50 percent transparency. The only differences are in the left hand pot.

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Old 16th April 2006, 11:37 AM   #32
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The photos have been edited beyond their labels, and day 3 proves it. Look at the Microwaved Water plant. The center top leaves of the plant have obvious blur tool effects, and you can see that the blur extended to the lip around the inside edge of the pot. Day 5 is almost the same angle, and you can see that there's no 'blurring' there, just some water droplets on the lip. And why that hard line on Day 3 at the back of the pot? It's like a shadow that just...stops. There's no mechanism for that shadow.
Oh, and another thing: there's a divot of soil missing! Right to the left of the blurred area, there's a dip in the soil that does not exist on any of the other photos.

Day 5 looks like the 'experimenter' took a contrast tool to one of the plants, but I don't see anything that really proves it. Looking closely at Day 1, though, it looks like the Boiled Water plant's leaves have some sort of halo effect around them; the soil immediately behind the leaves looks brighter than the surrounding soil.

Of course, the fact that he's cutting leaves off invalidates the whole thing anyway.

Edit - Great find, Jeeves. Taking another look, the leaves on Day 1 actually look cut, flipped, resized, and pasted over the Day Five picture, which explains the halo effect around those leaves. The position of several leaves looks identical, just flipped.
I think Day 5 is the 'original' setup, and the others are simply photo manipulations to make the Microwaved Water plant look better as you go back in time (until he just snipped the rest of the leaves off for days 7 and 9).
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Old 16th April 2006, 11:59 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Mahatma Kane Jeeves View Post
I think you're right. I'm not too good at this, but here is day 5 superimposed over day 1 with 50 percent transparency. The only differences are in the left hand pot.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...289d32965e.jpg
Nice one!
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Old 16th April 2006, 12:05 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Shadowhawk View Post
I think Day 5 is the 'original' setup, and the others are simply photo manipulations to make the Microwaved Water plant look better as you go back in time (until he just snipped the rest of the leaves off for days 7 and 9).
I have a suspicion that day 9 is the original set-up, and the leaves in days 1-5 are photoshopped in. the day 1 plant looks suspiciously like the right-hand plant from a different angle; note that the "halo" is the same colour as the compost in the right-hand pot, and compare the shoot at the right hand side of the "microwaved" plant to the one at the back of the "purified" one..
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Old 16th April 2006, 12:08 PM   #35
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Ok, I made an animated gif for you all. All I did was import the pictures and time them, I made no changes to the actual pictures.



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Old 16th April 2006, 12:11 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by JayT View Post
I would have used clean, identical Pyrex beakers to heat the water in both cases.
If you (or anyone else's six-year-old) does decide to do this, make sure you add some boiling chips. Boiling water in really clean, really smooth glass can lead to, shall we say, rather exciting results, as there are no nucleation sites for bubbles, so the water can heat way beyond the boiling point without actually bubbling until jostled...

We used to microwave sterilise growth medium in nalgene bottles, and had to carefully poke the bottles to see if they were going to spit all over the place before picking them up...
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Old 16th April 2006, 12:31 PM   #37
flume
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Originally Posted by Shadowhawk View Post
Taking another look, the leaves on Day 1 actually look cut, flipped, resized, and pasted over the Day Five picture, which explains the halo effect around those leaves. The position of several leaves looks identical, just flipped.
Wow, that makes sense.

And this is dismaying if a sixth grader is actually involved.
I'm wondering... did she put it off till the last moment and someone helped her to create it the day before? Or did she leave the plants in the care of someone else and has no idea what really happened? The granddad says on his webpage that she was amazed at the result.
(Or was there even a science fair? But her name is listed for a previous science fair.)

Last edited by flume; 16th April 2006 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 16th April 2006, 12:42 PM   #38
Ladewig
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I wonder if the source of these shenanigans was forgetting to start the project nine days before it was due and trying to produce very different photos in two days time?
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Old 16th April 2006, 06:53 PM   #39
flume
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To give them the benefit of the doubt, a more trivial possibility (although still wrong) is that someone messed up on taking or saving the earlier photos, so they faked them with photoshop to an approximation of what they remembered. If that were the case, they might not have faked the whole experiment (or at least the 6th grader might not have been involved in the faking.)
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Old 16th April 2006, 07:49 PM   #40
thatguywhojuggles
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Well done Mojo and MKJ!


Ahh... this is what I love about this website!

Has anyone emailed these fakers, and pointed out to them they cheated?

Not that it would be any use.

Not that it matters, but this is how I would set up the experiment.

Person #1 Boils water in two identical glass containers, one by microwave, the other by stovetop. A third, identical container would have unboiled water from the same source. The water would be left to cool until all three were all the same temperature. Finally, person #1 would label each bottle randomly either "A" "B" or "C" and place this information in an envelope.

Person #2 would arrange 15 plants, and label them 1-15, and on piece of paper they randomly choose and record which plants got which water. Five plants would get "A", five would get "B" and five would get "C" This information would be used by person #2 to make a watering chart. In one column he would write the plant number, and in another column he would write which bottle would be used to water that plant.

Person #3 would use the watering chart to water each plant. Making sure that each plant was watered in an indentical way, with the same amount of water each.

Person #1 would photograph each plant at the begining and end of the experiement and rate the plant's health on a scale of 1-10. At the end of the experiement the results would be obvious.

(This is the first scientific experiment I've ever designed. How did I do?)

Edited because I realized I didn't need 4 people, just 3.

Last edited by thatguywhojuggles; 16th April 2006 at 07:53 PM.
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