National Forensics Academy uses divining rods to search for bodies

LFTKBS · 16th April 2006, 02:24 AM

Hey, everyone. It's been a long time since my last visit but I thought you should all be aware of this latest waste of public money. I picked up the book "Bodies We've Buried" by Jarret Hallcox and Amy Welch. It seemed pretty normal and pro-science at first, until I got to this part, page 101 of the January 2006 edition.

"Recently Dr. [Arpad] Vass, the same Dr. Vass responsible for developing some of the most extraordinary capabilities used to discover human remains, has fallen in love with the prospect of "divining for bodies."

In order to do this, he takes a metal coat hanger like you would get from the dry cleaner, the kind with the cardboard tube, and cuts it in half, discarding the hook portion. Using the cardboard pieces as handles, he ends up with two L-shaped diving instruments that can move independently of the cardboard. He then holds his hands at his waist; with the metal portion of the hangers pointing straight out, he walks toward where he thinks a body might be decomposing. As he gets close, the metal pieces will point inward. It is unbelievable, to say the least, but we have both done this and it feels as if a force is acting pon the metal. Dr. Vass in convinced that the gasses that are released from the body create a magnetic charge that is opposite of the earth's magnetic field, which interacts with the divining hangers. Can you say new research? This is something the class will try on the following day during their burial recovery exercise."

I can't tell you how upset I am by this ridiculous waste of money and by the sheer ignorance of people who should know better. I am trying to find the contact info for Vass, Hallcox, and Welch so that I can tell them about the Challenge and the ideomotor effect. If you have any advice, please let me know.

Zep · 16th April 2006, 02:43 AM

By reading carefully, it appears that this "result" was obtained during training of some sort. Which would suggest that the general or even specific location of the "body" (I presume they would use an animal carcass!!) would most likely be known in advance.

Do I need to spell this out any further for the rest of the skeptics here?

LFTKBS · 16th April 2006, 02:48 AM

I found their email addresses on the University of Tennessee's site and am sending them some information on the ideomotor effect as well as a bit about the Challenge. This is sad.

Oh, and Zep - they use real human remains at the NFA.

Zep · 16th April 2006, 04:04 AM

Body Farm?

LFTKBS · 16th April 2006, 04:32 AM

Yeah, that's the colloquial name for it, popularized by Patricia Cornwell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Farm

GzuzKryzt · 16th April 2006, 04:57 AM

LFTKBS, do you have certainty that the authors Hallcox and Welch have got their facts straight and don't try to deceive Dr. Vass and their readers?

Did you also send an e-mail to Dr. Vass - as you intended to?

Hearing from him about this would remove all doubts.

Please keep us posted.

Zep · 16th April 2006, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by LFTKBS

Yeah, that's the colloquial name for it, popularized by Patricia Cornwell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Farm

Then they sodding-well DO know where the bodies are in advance! They are all very carefully mapped out and recorded!

The_Fire · 16th April 2006, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by Zep

Then they sodding-well DO know where the bodies are in advance! They are all very carefully mapped out and recorded!

They have to. Otherwise there's a chance that the more shady elements could start dumping "excess" bodies in the area and noone would know. Not to mention the fact that they have to keep a strict record of the "speciement" in order to use the finding later in forensics or at a trial.
Decomposition, insect infestation etc. are all recorded over a period of time.

Mojo · 16th April 2006, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by Zep

By reading carefully, it appears that this "result" was obtained during training of some sort. Which would suggest that the general or even specific location of the "body" (I presume they would use an animal carcass!!) would most likely be known in advance.

Do I need to spell this out any further for the rest of the skeptics here?

Even if it was in a "live" situation, where the exact location of the body wasn't known, there would be other signs, such as disturbed earth if the body was buried (or the body itself if it wasn't!). The dowser would presumably have to know roughly where to look, so would be walking over an area where they already thought there was a body.

Looking at Vass's theory about how it works gives us another possible explanation:

Quote:

Dr. Vass in convinced that the gasses that are released from the body create a magnetic charge that is opposite of the earth's magnetic field, which interacts with the divining hangers.

Or possibly these gases are simply interacting with Vass's nose.

nathan · 16th April 2006, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by LFTKBS

Dr. Vass in convinced that the gasses that are released from the body create a magnetic charge that is opposite of the earth's magnetic field, which interacts with the divining hangers.

(a) 'magnetic charge'? Does this imply Dr Vass believes a decomposing body emits magnetic monopoles? (My understanding is that these have yet to be detected)

(b) surely a simple magentometer could be used rather than a cut up coat hanger, and thereby remove the ideomotor effect as a possible cause?

Mojo · 16th April 2006, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by nathan

surely a simple magentometer could be used rather than a cut up coat hanger, and thereby remove the ideomotor effect as a possible cause?

I expect it's a special sort of magnetism that can't be detected by our closed-minded science.

GzuzKryzt · 16th April 2006, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

I expect it's a special sort of magnetism that can't be detected by our closed-minded science.

Guess we have to break out the big guns then.
Ladies and Gentlemen: The

Only
Magnetic
Necrogasic
Inspectior
That
Records
Overt
Nonsense.

http://www.randi.org/jr/200511/111805setback.html#i9

Zep · 16th April 2006, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by nathan

(a) 'magnetic charge'? Does this imply Dr Vass believes a decomposing body emits magnetic monopoles? (My understanding is that these have yet to be detected)

(b) surely a simple magentometer could be used rather than a cut up coat hanger, and thereby remove the ideomotor effect as a possible cause?

Oh SHUSSHH!

Don't bring the party down like that with those pesky facts, for goodness sake!

drfrank · 16th April 2006, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

I expect it's a special sort of magnetism that can't be detected by our closed-minded science.

Ah, the sort that's best described using the words "energy", "vibrations" and "frequencies", along with at least one mandatory reference to quantum mechanics

Something like:

"Quantum mechanics says that we can't know where something is and how fast it is moving: fortunately, the bodies that we're searching for are stationary, and thus this is not a problem for us. Magnetic energy vibrations within the corpse induce polarising frequencies in the dowsing rods, and the resulting etheric energy causing the rods to move. This is very simple science, but close-minded skeptics continue to doubt it, despite undeniably positive results."

LFTKBS · 16th April 2006, 12:43 PM

Text of the email sent to Vass at vassaa@ornl.gov

Quote:

Dr. Vass -

I read with great interest "Bodies We've Buried," the book about the
National Forensics Academy written by your colleagues Hallcox and
Welch. Much of the material is very interesting and informative, but
I was dismayed to see that you have expressed interest in divining the
location of corpses with divining rods. Unfortunately, I have to tell
you that this will absolutely not work. You've experienced the
"ideomotor effect," which is the influence of suggestion or expectaton
on involuntary and unconscious motor behavior. Unless the experiment
is double-blind and properly controlled, your foreknowledge of the
bodies's location will influence the motion of the rods, even though
you are not purposely doing it.

If you can use divining rods to find corpses in a double-blind,
properly controlled manner, you, the NFA, or ORNL is eligible to win
James Randi's Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge. That would pay for
a lot of research, as well as bring the program and yourself worldwide
acclaim.

Further information on the ideomotor effect is available here:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ideomotor.html

James Randi's Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge is explained here.
All that is required is that you demonstrate that divining works
better than chance.
http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

Looking forward to your reply

Text of the email sent to Hallcox & Welch, jhallcox@tennessee.edu, amywelch@tennessee.edu

Quote:

Mr. Hallcox & Ms. Welch -

I bought your book "Bodies We've Buried" and couldn't put it down -
until page 101. There, you discuss Dr. Arpad Vass's theory of finding
corpses via divining rods. Unfortunately, I have to tell you that
this will absolutely not work. You've experienced the "ideomotor
effect," which is the influence of suggestion or expectaton on
involuntary and unconscious motor behavior.

If you can use divining rods to find corpses in a double-blind,
properly controlled manner, you or the academy is eligible to win
James Randi's Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge. That would pay for
a lot of equipment as well as bring the Academy, the University, and
yourselves worldwide acclaim.

To be honest, I am disheartened that you (rightfully) critique the
television show "CSI" for its unrealistic portrayal of forensic
science yet accept without reservation a technique like dowsing or
divining that has been debunked countless times and that has never
succeeded in a properly controlled setting.

Please tell me that you have already heard all this and that the next
edition of your book will correct these egregious errors.

Further information on the ideomotor effect is available here:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ideomotor.html

Looking forward to your reply

GzuzKryzt · 16th April 2006, 01:54 PM

Thanks, LFTKBS.

Hopefully, you will receive replies soon.

LFTKBS · 17th April 2006, 09:39 AM

I got a reply from Dr. Vass. I am composing another email which I will post before sending because this is both delicate and important.

Quote:

Thank you for your kind comments and they are of course taken into
consideration. I am not sure what the authors of the book said since I
have not read it, but divining started out as a fun activity for the
students since it does 'seem' to work. Since I have 100% success rate in
finding clandestine corpses using divining techniques, I started doing
some research into the effects and found that there are logical
(explainable) reasons why it works - refer to Newton's theories which
disproves a part of Einstein's relativity theory. Along with some of the
exceptional unique properties of bone I think we have developed quite a
plausible explanation of the concept. I plan to publish on this and will
send you a copy. Best wishes, Arpad

Mojo · 17th April 2006, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by drfrank

Ah, the sort that's best described using the words "energy", "vibrations" and "frequencies", along with at least one mandatory reference to quantum mechanics

It looks from the reply LFTKBS got that he's going for relativity instead.

I'll be interested in seeing how Newton's theories disprove part of relativity!

LFTKBS · 17th April 2006, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

It looks from the reply LFTKBS got that he's going for relativity instead.

I'll be interested in seeing how Newton's theories disprove part of relativity!

Yeah I don't even know what's going on with that.

Nucular · 17th April 2006, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by LFTKBS

I got a reply from Dr. Vass. I am composing another email which I will post before sending because this is both delicate and important.

Quote:

Thank you for your kind comments and they are of course taken into
consideration. I am not sure what the authors of the book said since I
have not read it, but divining started out as a fun activity for the
students since it does 'seem' to work. Since I have 100% success rate in
finding clandestine corpses using divining techniques, I started doing
some research into the effects and found that there are logical
(explainable) reasons why it works - refer to Newton's theories which
disproves a part of Einstein's relativity theory. Along with some of the
exceptional unique properties of bone I think we have developed quite a
plausible explanation of the concept. I plan to publish on this and will
send you a copy. Best wishes, Arpad

Interesting stuff, and good work LFTKBS - I often intend to email these types of things, and rarely get round to it.

100% success rate, hmmm..? Perhaps the reference to the Challenge should be embiggened somehow, as if he's got a good track record, plus a wacky theory, and seems genuine, he might actually be a potential applicant (as opposed to the pseudopotential applicants who turn up here bristling with excuses until they get banned).

But yes. I'm dying to know which Newtonian theory he means, and exactly how it disproves part of relativity. And how that means dowsing works. And... oh, I wish he'd come here.

GzuzKryzt · 17th April 2006, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by LFTKBS

I got a reply from Dr. Vass. I am composing another email which I will post before sending because this is both delicate and important.

Please do, LFTKBS.

Originally Posted by LFTKBS

[Dr. Vass's reply]
"...
Since I have 100% success rate in
finding clandestine corpses using divining techniques, I started doing
some research into the effects and found that there are logical
(explainable) reasons why it works - refer to Newton's theories which
disproves a part of Einstein's relativity theory.
..."

Holy crapparoly!

LFTKBS · 18th April 2006, 09:29 AM

I sent another email to Vass.

Quote:

Dr. Vass -

Thank you for the quick reply.

Because science is at its best when vigorously challenged, I hope you
will not mind me asking you a couple of questions about your
methodology. You claim to have a 100% success rate in finding
corpses, but I wonder, what are the control parameters? Because the
burial of a body leaves certain visible clues - disturbed soil,
footprints, maybe even tools left next to the site, how are you
certain that you are not simply percieving these details? It is not
difficult to discover a body with divining rods when one already knows
where it is.

Since you asked about the book, here is what Hallcox and Welch wrote:

"Recently Dr. [Arpad] Vass, the same Dr. Vass responsible for
developing some of the most extraordinary capabilities used to
discover human remains, has fallen in love with the prospect of
"divining for bodies."

In order to do this, he takes a metal coat hanger like you would get
from the dry cleaner, the kind with the cardboard tube, and cuts it in
half, discarding the hook portion. Using the cardboard pieces as
handles, he ends up with two L-shaped diving instruments that can move
independently of the cardboard. He then holds his hands at his waist;
with the metal portion of the hangers pointing straight out, he walks
toward where he thinks a body might be decomposing. As he gets close,
the metal pieces will point inward. It is unbelievable, to say the
least, but we have both done this and it feels as if a force is acting
upon the metal. Dr. Vass is convinced that the gasses that are
released from the body create a magnetic charge that is opposite of
the earth's magnetic field, which interacts with the divining hangers.
Can you say new research? This is something the class will try on
the following day during their burial recovery exercise."

The James Randi Educational Foundation has a million dollar prize
available to anyone who can successfully dowse in the manner you
describe. You must only demonstrate that you can do what you claim.
I imagine a pig carcass or similar animal body would work, as they are
chemically identical to that of a human body, and you mention that the
detected material is gasses released from the body. If would be a
great boon to science if you would test your findings with the JREF,
not to mention that if you succeeded, you would have a million dollars
to do with as you see fit.

I am not an employee of the JREF nor a representative of that
organization. Further details are available here:
http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html

I also sent some info to Jeff and, of course, Randi. I'll quote Randi's response here if it's okay:

Quote:

Dr. Vass is eminently eligible for our million-dollar prize, which he could win within an hour during a proper test.

The question is, does it have to be a human corpse?

I'd really like to see Vass or Hallcox/Welch tested, so any further suggestions along these lines would be greatly appreciated.

LFTKBS · 18th April 2006, 10:21 AM

New reply from Vass. He is very nice.

Quote:

Well, the book doesn't quite represent what I said or do, but yes I
think the principle of how it works follows Newton's theories (has
nothing to do with gases by the way) quite well. I do not believe it has
anything to do with the paranormal - it just simply follows the rules of
physics. Tesla also hit upon some aspects of it. And yes, you are
correct that in some cases evidence of burial is present, but I use it
only in the most difficult situations (burial under house foundations,
driveways, garbage dumps, etc. where no telltale evidence exists.
Difficult to explain away when you find the exact location of a corpse
under an entire house or building foundation when even the informant
can't remember which house the victim was buried under. Arpad (By the
way, it does in fact work with pigs (even found some dinosaur bones),
but pigs are not as similar to humans in decomp products as once
thought. I will take your suggestions under consideration)

GzuzKryzt · 18th April 2006, 10:36 AM

Dowsing = Not paranormal, but abiding Laws of Physics?

However, his point of view will not affect his eligibility to the JREF Challenge.
Perhaps you should ask him straight on if he would like to apply for the Challenge.

ChaosEngineer · 18th April 2006, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Nucular

But yes. I'm dying to know which Newtonian theory he means, and exactly how it disproves part of relativity.

I just did some quick research on Newtonian Mechanics, and it looks like it's a pretty exciting field.

In the classic relativistic model, the speed of light is a constant in all frames of reference. But the new Newtonian model suggests that the speed of light can vary depending on the motion of the observer. (So, for example, if you travelled away from a light source at a speed of about 300,000 km/sec, the light from that source would appear to be standing still!)

If Newton is right, then we'll have to rethink our whole current understanding of Physics. I'm having trouble following some of the details, but his equations seem basically sound.

gfunkusarelius · 18th April 2006, 11:28 AM

what a bit of standard BS...i love how he says "Along with some of the exceptional unique properties of bone I think we have developed quite a plausible explanation of the concept. " this absolutely smacks of the very common "talk like you are very scientific and hope no one around you is" sort of flim-flammery that i detest. oh yeah, he is saving this info for his book...i bet! what a joke.

also, i am amazed how i see how often these con artists saying that whatever it is that no one else can do is actually really simple...but then they can never do it.

oh and its also cute how he keeps dropping names with no connection to his theory as if that somehow lends credibility to it.

LFTKBS · 18th April 2006, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by gfunkusarelius

oh yeah, he is saving this info for his book

To be fair, he's referring to the book by Hallcox and Welch that was mentioned in my first post, not an upcoiming book of his.

Mojo · 18th April 2006, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by LFTKBS

New reply from Vass. He is very nice.

Hey! He's citing Tesla as well!

gfunkusarelius · 18th April 2006, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by LFTKBS

To be fair, he's referring to the book by Hallcox and Welch that was mentioned in my first post, not an upcoiming book of his.

actually i was referring to his line

Quote:

"I plan to publish on this and will send you a copy. Best wishes, Arpad"

it sounded to me a lot like the other people who have said "oh yeah, [insert pseudoscience here] is actually quite easy, i will get my machine finalized and get back to you." and then , of course, you never hear back

CFLarsen · 18th April 2006, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Zep

Body Farm?

BodyShop?

GzuzKryzt · 18th April 2006, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by gfunkusarelius

...
it sounded to me a lot like the other people who have said "oh yeah, [insert pseudoscience here] is actually quite easy, i will get my machine finalized and get back to you." and then , of course, you never hear back

You may have a point. Let's give Dr. Vass a chance first. So far, it sounds promising.
Let's hope for another prelim.

strathmeyer · 18th April 2006, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

BodyShop?

Come on, you guys haven't seen the CSI where there were extra bodies in the body farm?

GzuzKryzt · 18th April 2006, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by strathmeyer

Come on, you guys haven't seen the CSI where there were extra bodies in the body farm?

No.

FramerDave · 18th April 2006, 02:40 PM

All the woo crap aside, what really bothers me is that fact that my tax dollars, or those of the fair people of Tennessee, is being used to support garbage like this.

I realize that the world of academia plays a bit free and loose with ideas; that's how how progress is made and new ideas are nurtured. But surely there has to be some accountability in the system. Do the good doctor's colleagues and superiors know about his wonderful ideas and research? What do they think of him spending university money on this sort of thing?

I'd love to hear what the head of Dr. Vass's department thinks of this.

GzuzKryzt · 18th April 2006, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by FramerDave

All the woo crap aside, what really bothers me is that fact that my tax dollars, or those of the fair people of Tennessee, is being used to support garbage like this.

I realize that the world of academia plays a bit free and loose with ideas; that's how how progress is made and new ideas are nurtured. But surely there has to be some accountability in the system. Do the good doctor's colleagues and superiors know about his wonderful ideas and research? What do they think of him spending university money on this sort of thing?

I'd love to hear what the head of Dr. Vass's department thinks of this.

Good idea. Will you contact him?

FramerDave · 18th April 2006, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt

Good idea. Will you contact him?

Sure, why not? Give me some time to dig around and find contact info, etc. I'll post and let you know.

GzuzKryzt · 18th April 2006, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by FramerDave

Sure, why not? Give me some time to dig around and find contact info, etc. I'll post and let you know.

LFTKBS might be able and willing to help you.

FramerDave · 18th April 2006, 03:08 PM

Interesting. It seems that Jarrett Hallcox, the NFA Project Manager, is the same Hallcox who wrote the book.

GzuzKryzt · 18th April 2006, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by FramerDave

Interesting. It seems that Jarrett Hallcox, the NFA Project Manager, is the same Hallcox who wrote the book.

Does this fuel your fire?

LFTKBS · 18th April 2006, 03:34 PM

I am more interested in Vass taking the Challenge at this point than going to his supervisors. He has thus far been open and forthright about his research, erroneous as it may be, and I'd rather not have him clam up and refuse to speak to laymen such as myself. Threatening him or challenging him in that respect will not stop him from continuing in such folly; we have to gently show him how he is simply incorrect.

16th April 2006, 02:24 AM	#1
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977	National Forensics Academy uses divining rods to search for bodies Hey, everyone. It's been a long time since my last visit but I thought you should all be aware of this latest waste of public money. I picked up the book "Bodies We've Buried" by Jarret Hallcox and Amy Welch. It seemed pretty normal and pro-science at first, until I got to this part, page 101 of the January 2006 edition. "Recently Dr. [Arpad] Vass, the same Dr. Vass responsible for developing some of the most extraordinary capabilities used to discover human remains, has fallen in love with the prospect of "divining for bodies." In order to do this, he takes a metal coat hanger like you would get from the dry cleaner, the kind with the cardboard tube, and cuts it in half, discarding the hook portion. Using the cardboard pieces as handles, he ends up with two L-shaped diving instruments that can move independently of the cardboard. He then holds his hands at his waist; with the metal portion of the hangers pointing straight out, he walks toward where he thinks a body might be decomposing. As he gets close, the metal pieces will point inward. It is unbelievable, to say the least, but we have both done this and it feels as if a force is acting pon the metal. Dr. Vass in convinced that the gasses that are released from the body create a magnetic charge that is opposite of the earth's magnetic field, which interacts with the divining hangers. Can you say new research? This is something the class will try on the following day during their burial recovery exercise." I can't tell you how upset I am by this ridiculous waste of money and by the sheer ignorance of people who should know better. I am trying to find the contact info for Vass, Hallcox, and Welch so that I can tell them about the Challenge and the ideomotor effect. If you have any advice, please let me know.
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977	Last edited by LFTKBS; 16th April 2006 at 02:28 AM. Reason: added "s" to "Forensics"

16th April 2006, 02:43 AM	#2
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230	By reading carefully, it appears that this "result" was obtained during training of some sort. Which would suggest that the general or even specific location of the "body" (I presume they would use an animal carcass!!) would most likely be known in advance. Do I need to spell this out any further for the rest of the skeptics here?
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230

16th April 2006, 02:48 AM	#3
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977	I found their email addresses on the University of Tennessee's site and am sending them some information on the ideomotor effect as well as a bit about the Challenge. This is sad. Oh, and Zep - they use real human remains at the NFA.
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977

16th April 2006, 04:04 AM	#4
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230	Body Farm?
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230

16th April 2006, 04:32 AM	#5
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977	Yeah, that's the colloquial name for it, popularized by Patricia Cornwell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Farm
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977

16th April 2006, 04:57 AM	#6
GzuzKryzt A Division of N.T. Kryzt Inc. Tagger Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,961	LFTKBS, do you have certainty that the authors Hallcox and Welch have got their facts straight and don't try to deceive Dr. Vass and their readers? Did you also send an e-mail to Dr. Vass - as you intended to? Hearing from him about this would remove all doubts. Please keep us posted.
	__________________ "The rules allow for vastly different levels of honesty, knowledge, and intelligence."

16th April 2006, 05:35 AM	#7
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230	Originally Posted by LFTKBS Yeah, that's the colloquial name for it, popularized by Patricia Cornwell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Farm Then they sodding-well DO know where the bodies are in advance! They are all very carefully mapped out and recorded!
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230

16th April 2006, 05:48 AM	#8
The_Fire Unimpressed Female Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: 8th level of Hell - Maleborgia Posts: 2,458	Originally Posted by Zep Then they sodding-well DO know where the bodies are in advance! They are all very carefully mapped out and recorded! They have to. Otherwise there's a chance that the more shady elements could start dumping "excess" bodies in the area and noone would know. Not to mention the fact that they have to keep a strict record of the "speciement" in order to use the finding later in forensics or at a trial. Decomposition, insect infestation etc. are all recorded over a period of time.
	__________________ If anyone told you that I'm a nice person, they were either from a different level of existance, lying through their teeth or mentally instable. "We? That better be you and that invisible aardwarck in your pocket you are talking about, because I KNOW you are not stupid enough to open a giant can of whoop ass by claiming you know what I think." Stop Sylvia Browne

16th April 2006, 06:06 AM	#9
Mojo Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 14,504	Originally Posted by Zep By reading carefully, it appears that this "result" was obtained during training of some sort. Which would suggest that the general or even specific location of the "body" (I presume they would use an animal carcass!!) would most likely be known in advance. Do I need to spell this out any further for the rest of the skeptics here? Even if it was in a "live" situation, where the exact location of the body wasn't known, there would be other signs, such as disturbed earth if the body was buried (or the body itself if it wasn't!). The dowser would presumably have to know roughly where to look, so would be walking over an area where they already thought there was a body. Looking at Vass's theory about how it works gives us another possible explanation: Quote: Dr. Vass in convinced that the gasses that are released from the body create a magnetic charge that is opposite of the earth's magnetic field, which interacts with the divining hangers. Or possibly these gases are simply interacting with Vass's nose.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield Ridicule is not an inappropriate response to the ridiculous.

16th April 2006, 06:22 AM	#10
nathan witty nothing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Helghan Posts: 1,726	Originally Posted by LFTKBS Dr. Vass in convinced that the gasses that are released from the body create a magnetic charge that is opposite of the earth's magnetic field, which interacts with the divining hangers. (a) 'magnetic charge'? Does this imply Dr Vass believes a decomposing body emits magnetic monopoles? (My understanding is that these have yet to be detected) (b) surely a simple magentometer could be used rather than a cut up coat hanger, and thereby remove the ideomotor effect as a possible cause?

16th April 2006, 06:24 AM	#11
Mojo Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 14,504	Originally Posted by nathan surely a simple magentometer could be used rather than a cut up coat hanger, and thereby remove the ideomotor effect as a possible cause? I expect it's a special sort of magnetism that can't be detected by our closed-minded science.
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16th April 2006, 06:55 AM	#12
GzuzKryzt A Division of N.T. Kryzt Inc. Tagger Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,961	Originally Posted by Mojo I expect it's a special sort of magnetism that can't be detected by our closed-minded science. Guess we have to break out the big guns then. Ladies and Gentlemen: The Only Magnetic Necrogasic Inspectior That Records Overt Nonsense. http://www.randi.org/jr/200511/111805setback.html#i9
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16th April 2006, 06:58 AM	#13
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230	Originally Posted by nathan (a) 'magnetic charge'? Does this imply Dr Vass believes a decomposing body emits magnetic monopoles? (My understanding is that these have yet to be detected) (b) surely a simple magentometer could be used rather than a cut up coat hanger, and thereby remove the ideomotor effect as a possible cause? Oh SHUSSHH! Don't bring the party down like that with those pesky facts, for goodness sake!
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230

16th April 2006, 08:05 AM	#14
drfrank Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Reading, UK Posts: 446	Originally Posted by Mojo I expect it's a special sort of magnetism that can't be detected by our closed-minded science. Ah, the sort that's best described using the words "energy", "vibrations" and "frequencies", along with at least one mandatory reference to quantum mechanics Something like: "Quantum mechanics says that we can't know where something is and how fast it is moving: fortunately, the bodies that we're searching for are stationary, and thus this is not a problem for us. Magnetic energy vibrations within the corpse induce polarising frequencies in the dowsing rods, and the resulting etheric energy causing the rods to move. This is very simple science, but close-minded skeptics continue to doubt it, despite undeniably positive results."
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16th April 2006, 12:43 PM	#15
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977	Text of the email sent to Vass at vassaa@ornl.gov Quote: Dr. Vass - I read with great interest "Bodies We've Buried," the book about the National Forensics Academy written by your colleagues Hallcox and Welch. Much of the material is very interesting and informative, but I was dismayed to see that you have expressed interest in divining the location of corpses with divining rods. Unfortunately, I have to tell you that this will absolutely not work. You've experienced the "ideomotor effect," which is the influence of suggestion or expectaton on involuntary and unconscious motor behavior. Unless the experiment is double-blind and properly controlled, your foreknowledge of the bodies's location will influence the motion of the rods, even though you are not purposely doing it. If you can use divining rods to find corpses in a double-blind, properly controlled manner, you, the NFA, or ORNL is eligible to win James Randi's Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge. That would pay for a lot of research, as well as bring the program and yourself worldwide acclaim. Further information on the ideomotor effect is available here: http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ideomotor.html James Randi's Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge is explained here. All that is required is that you demonstrate that divining works better than chance. http://www.randi.org/research/index.html Looking forward to your reply Text of the email sent to Hallcox & Welch, jhallcox@tennessee.edu, amywelch@tennessee.edu Quote: Mr. Hallcox & Ms. Welch - I bought your book "Bodies We've Buried" and couldn't put it down - until page 101. There, you discuss Dr. Arpad Vass's theory of finding corpses via divining rods. Unfortunately, I have to tell you that this will absolutely not work. You've experienced the "ideomotor effect," which is the influence of suggestion or expectaton on involuntary and unconscious motor behavior. If you can use divining rods to find corpses in a double-blind, properly controlled manner, you or the academy is eligible to win James Randi's Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge. That would pay for a lot of equipment as well as bring the Academy, the University, and yourselves worldwide acclaim. To be honest, I am disheartened that you (rightfully) critique the television show "CSI" for its unrealistic portrayal of forensic science yet accept without reservation a technique like dowsing or divining that has been debunked countless times and that has never succeeded in a properly controlled setting. Please tell me that you have already heard all this and that the next edition of your book will correct these egregious errors. Further information on the ideomotor effect is available here: http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ideomotor.html Looking forward to your reply
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977

16th April 2006, 01:54 PM	#16
GzuzKryzt A Division of N.T. Kryzt Inc. Tagger Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,961	Thanks, LFTKBS. Hopefully, you will receive replies soon.
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17th April 2006, 09:39 AM	#17
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977	I got a reply from Dr. Vass. I am composing another email which I will post before sending because this is both delicate and important. Quote: Thank you for your kind comments and they are of course taken into consideration. I am not sure what the authors of the book said since I have not read it, but divining started out as a fun activity for the students since it does 'seem' to work. Since I have 100% success rate in finding clandestine corpses using divining techniques, I started doing some research into the effects and found that there are logical (explainable) reasons why it works - refer to Newton's theories which disproves a part of Einstein's relativity theory. Along with some of the exceptional unique properties of bone I think we have developed quite a plausible explanation of the concept. I plan to publish on this and will send you a copy. Best wishes, Arpad
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977

17th April 2006, 09:55 AM	#18
Mojo Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 14,504	Originally Posted by drfrank Ah, the sort that's best described using the words "energy", "vibrations" and "frequencies", along with at least one mandatory reference to quantum mechanics It looks from the reply LFTKBS got that he's going for relativity instead. I'll be interested in seeing how Newton's theories disprove part of relativity!
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield Ridicule is not an inappropriate response to the ridiculous.

17th April 2006, 10:04 AM	#19
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977	Originally Posted by Mojo It looks from the reply LFTKBS got that he's going for relativity instead. I'll be interested in seeing how Newton's theories disprove part of relativity! Yeah I don't even know what's going on with that.
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977

17th April 2006, 11:11 AM	#20
Nucular Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream Posts: 3,038	Originally Posted by LFTKBS I got a reply from Dr. Vass. I am composing another email which I will post before sending because this is both delicate and important. Quote: Thank you for your kind comments and they are of course taken into consideration. I am not sure what the authors of the book said since I have not read it, but divining started out as a fun activity for the students since it does 'seem' to work. Since I have 100% success rate in finding clandestine corpses using divining techniques, I started doing some research into the effects and found that there are logical (explainable) reasons why it works - refer to Newton's theories which disproves a part of Einstein's relativity theory. Along with some of the exceptional unique properties of bone I think we have developed quite a plausible explanation of the concept. I plan to publish on this and will send you a copy. Best wishes, Arpad Interesting stuff, and good work LFTKBS - I often intend to email these types of things, and rarely get round to it. 100% success rate, hmmm..? Perhaps the reference to the Challenge should be embiggened somehow, as if he's got a good track record, plus a wacky theory, and seems genuine, he might actually be a potential applicant (as opposed to the pseudopotential applicants who turn up here bristling with excuses until they get banned). But yes. I'm dying to know which Newtonian theory he means, and exactly how it disproves part of relativity. And how that means dowsing works. And... oh, I wish he'd come here.
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17th April 2006, 01:59 PM	#21
GzuzKryzt A Division of N.T. Kryzt Inc. Tagger Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,961	Originally Posted by LFTKBS I got a reply from Dr. Vass. I am composing another email which I will post before sending because this is both delicate and important. Please do, LFTKBS. Originally Posted by LFTKBS [Dr. Vass's reply] "... Since I have 100% success rate in finding clandestine corpses using divining techniques, I started doing some research into the effects and found that there are logical (explainable) reasons why it works - refer to Newton's theories which disproves a part of Einstein's relativity theory. ..." Holy crapparoly!
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18th April 2006, 09:29 AM	#22
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977	I sent another email to Vass. Quote: Dr. Vass - Thank you for the quick reply. Because science is at its best when vigorously challenged, I hope you will not mind me asking you a couple of questions about your methodology. You claim to have a 100% success rate in finding corpses, but I wonder, what are the control parameters? Because the burial of a body leaves certain visible clues - disturbed soil, footprints, maybe even tools left next to the site, how are you certain that you are not simply percieving these details? It is not difficult to discover a body with divining rods when one already knows where it is. Since you asked about the book, here is what Hallcox and Welch wrote: "Recently Dr. [Arpad] Vass, the same Dr. Vass responsible for developing some of the most extraordinary capabilities used to discover human remains, has fallen in love with the prospect of "divining for bodies." In order to do this, he takes a metal coat hanger like you would get from the dry cleaner, the kind with the cardboard tube, and cuts it in half, discarding the hook portion. Using the cardboard pieces as handles, he ends up with two L-shaped diving instruments that can move independently of the cardboard. He then holds his hands at his waist; with the metal portion of the hangers pointing straight out, he walks toward where he thinks a body might be decomposing. As he gets close, the metal pieces will point inward. It is unbelievable, to say the least, but we have both done this and it feels as if a force is acting upon the metal. Dr. Vass is convinced that the gasses that are released from the body create a magnetic charge that is opposite of the earth's magnetic field, which interacts with the divining hangers. Can you say new research? This is something the class will try on the following day during their burial recovery exercise." The James Randi Educational Foundation has a million dollar prize available to anyone who can successfully dowse in the manner you describe. You must only demonstrate that you can do what you claim. I imagine a pig carcass or similar animal body would work, as they are chemically identical to that of a human body, and you mention that the detected material is gasses released from the body. If would be a great boon to science if you would test your findings with the JREF, not to mention that if you succeeded, you would have a million dollars to do with as you see fit. I am not an employee of the JREF nor a representative of that organization. Further details are available here: http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html I also sent some info to Jeff and, of course, Randi. I'll quote Randi's response here if it's okay: Quote: Dr. Vass is eminently eligible for our million-dollar prize, which he could win within an hour during a proper test. The question is, does it have to be a human corpse? I'd really like to see Vass or Hallcox/Welch tested, so any further suggestions along these lines would be greatly appreciated.
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977

18th April 2006, 10:21 AM	#23
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977	New reply from Vass. He is very nice. Quote: Well, the book doesn't quite represent what I said or do, but yes I think the principle of how it works follows Newton's theories (has nothing to do with gases by the way) quite well. I do not believe it has anything to do with the paranormal - it just simply follows the rules of physics. Tesla also hit upon some aspects of it. And yes, you are correct that in some cases evidence of burial is present, but I use it only in the most difficult situations (burial under house foundations, driveways, garbage dumps, etc. where no telltale evidence exists. Difficult to explain away when you find the exact location of a corpse under an entire house or building foundation when even the informant can't remember which house the victim was buried under. Arpad (By the way, it does in fact work with pigs (even found some dinosaur bones), but pigs are not as similar to humans in decomp products as once thought. I will take your suggestions under consideration)
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977

18th April 2006, 10:36 AM	#24
GzuzKryzt A Division of N.T. Kryzt Inc. Tagger Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,961	Dowsing = Not paranormal, but abiding Laws of Physics? However, his point of view will not affect his eligibility to the JREF Challenge. Perhaps you should ask him straight on if he would like to apply for the Challenge.
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18th April 2006, 11:18 AM	#25
ChaosEngineer Student Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 49	Originally Posted by Nucular But yes. I'm dying to know which Newtonian theory he means, and exactly how it disproves part of relativity. I just did some quick research on Newtonian Mechanics, and it looks like it's a pretty exciting field. In the classic relativistic model, the speed of light is a constant in all frames of reference. But the new Newtonian model suggests that the speed of light can vary depending on the motion of the observer. (So, for example, if you travelled away from a light source at a speed of about 300,000 km/sec, the light from that source would appear to be standing still!) If Newton is right, then we'll have to rethink our whole current understanding of Physics. I'm having trouble following some of the details, but his equations seem basically sound.
ChaosEngineer Student Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 49

18th April 2006, 11:28 AM	#26
gfunkusarelius Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 436	what a bit of standard BS...i love how he says "Along with some of the exceptional unique properties of bone I think we have developed quite a plausible explanation of the concept. " this absolutely smacks of the very common "talk like you are very scientific and hope no one around you is" sort of flim-flammery that i detest. oh yeah, he is saving this info for his book...i bet! what a joke. also, i am amazed how i see how often these con artists saying that whatever it is that no one else can do is actually really simple...but then they can never do it. oh and its also cute how he keeps dropping names with no connection to his theory as if that somehow lends credibility to it.
	Last edited by gfunkusarelius; 18th April 2006 at 11:36 AM.

18th April 2006, 11:47 AM	#27
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977	Originally Posted by gfunkusarelius oh yeah, he is saving this info for his book To be fair, he's referring to the book by Hallcox and Welch that was mentioned in my first post, not an upcoiming book of his.
LFTKBS Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 977

18th April 2006, 01:40 PM	#28
Mojo Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 14,504	Originally Posted by LFTKBS New reply from Vass. He is very nice. Hey! He's citing Tesla as well!
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield Ridicule is not an inappropriate response to the ridiculous.

18th April 2006, 02:11 PM	#29
gfunkusarelius Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 436	Originally Posted by LFTKBS To be fair, he's referring to the book by Hallcox and Welch that was mentioned in my first post, not an upcoiming book of his. actually i was referring to his line Quote: "I plan to publish on this and will send you a copy. Best wishes, Arpad" it sounded to me a lot like the other people who have said "oh yeah, [insert pseudoscience here] is actually quite easy, i will get my machine finalized and get back to you." and then , of course, you never hear back

18th April 2006, 02:20 PM	#30
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,805	Originally Posted by Zep Body Farm? BodyShop?
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18th April 2006, 02:27 PM	#31
GzuzKryzt A Division of N.T. Kryzt Inc. Tagger Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,961	Originally Posted by gfunkusarelius ... it sounded to me a lot like the other people who have said "oh yeah, [insert pseudoscience here] is actually quite easy, i will get my machine finalized and get back to you." and then , of course, you never hear back You may have a point. Let's give Dr. Vass a chance first. So far, it sounds promising. Let's hope for another prelim.
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18th April 2006, 02:32 PM	#32
strathmeyer seriously unable to be serious Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Posts: 2,382	Originally Posted by CFLarsen BodyShop? Come on, you guys haven't seen the CSI where there were extra bodies in the body farm?

18th April 2006, 02:38 PM	#33
GzuzKryzt A Division of N.T. Kryzt Inc. Tagger Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,961	Originally Posted by strathmeyer Come on, you guys haven't seen the CSI where there were extra bodies in the body farm? No.
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18th April 2006, 02:40 PM	#34
FramerDave Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 491	All the woo crap aside, what really bothers me is that fact that my tax dollars, or those of the fair people of Tennessee, is being used to support garbage like this. I realize that the world of academia plays a bit free and loose with ideas; that's how how progress is made and new ideas are nurtured. But surely there has to be some accountability in the system. Do the good doctor's colleagues and superiors know about his wonderful ideas and research? What do they think of him spending university money on this sort of thing? I'd love to hear what the head of Dr. Vass's department thinks of this.

18th April 2006, 02:50 PM	#35
GzuzKryzt A Division of N.T. Kryzt Inc. Tagger Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,961	Originally Posted by FramerDave All the woo crap aside, what really bothers me is that fact that my tax dollars, or those of the fair people of Tennessee, is being used to support garbage like this. I realize that the world of academia plays a bit free and loose with ideas; that's how how progress is made and new ideas are nurtured. But surely there has to be some accountability in the system. Do the good doctor's colleagues and superiors know about his wonderful ideas and research? What do they think of him spending university money on this sort of thing? I'd love to hear what the head of Dr. Vass's department thinks of this. Good idea. Will you contact him?
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