Sent in my application today.

Neutralize · 2nd May 2006, 01:21 AM

Hello skeptics. Today I mailed my application form for the challenge. I am claiming to have the ability to read my friends thoughts. I am claiming that we have telepathy. I am very certain of this because this has been like this for over a year.

skullerello · 2nd May 2006, 01:33 AM

If I predict that I won't have won The Challenge by the 5th of May, will I therefore automatically win it?

Darat · 2nd May 2006, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by Neutralize

Hello skeptics. Today I mailed my application form for the challenge. I am claiming to have the ability to read my friends thoughts. I am claiming that we have telepathy. I am very certain of this because this has been like this for over a year.

Welcome to the Forum - you may want to read this: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=54571

Gravy · 2nd May 2006, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by skullerello

If I predict that I won't have won The Challenge by the 5th of May, will I therefore automatically win it?

Neutralize, would you be willing to share your suggested test protocol with us?

Ausmerican · 2nd May 2006, 01:50 AM

Reading your friends thoughts? Thats not psychic. Thats a result of being friends and knowing each other well. Also, there is a probability that you became friends because you think alike about many things in the first place. Try reading a strangers mind and you may have something.

Neutralize · 2nd May 2006, 01:51 AM

I would consider a test with me being supervised, and my lady friend as well by members or representatives from JREF. This could even work with us far apart like across town. I am positive that I could successfully transfer thoughts to her, and she could say what I am thinking or whatever. i am talking to her right now.

Lothian · 2nd May 2006, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by Neutralize

I would consider a test with me being supervised, and my lady friend as well by members or representatives from JREF. This could even work with us far apart like across town. I am positive that I could successfully transfer thoughts to her, and she could say what I am thinking or whatever. i am talking to her right now.

How about a simple experiment where you pick a playing card from a pack and think about it and your friend writes the name of card down. Repeat twice.

You can practice at home.

At 10 o clock, say, you pick a card and think about it for 5 mins. At 5 past 10 you pick the next card. At 10 past 10 pick a third card then at quarter past you can compare the cards you chose with the 3 cards your friend (in a different room) has recorded. If they are all right you will have great chance of being able to pass a proper challenge.

nathan · 2nd May 2006, 02:27 AM

Originally Posted by Neutralize

I would consider a test with me being supervised, and my lady friend as well by members or representatives from JREF. This could even work with us far apart like across town. I am positive that I could successfully transfer thoughts to her, and she could say what I am thinking or whatever. i am talking to her right now.

Have you read this thread ? http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=28936. The protocol used there is described in post 23 of that thread.

Is that something like you envision? If not, can you be more specific than what you wrote above?

nathan · 2nd May 2006, 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by Ausmerican

Reading your friends thoughts? Thats not psychic.

Not _necessarily_ psychic. It all depends on the specifity of the thoughts being read. If the thought is 'hey, I'd like to go see movie X', then that's unlikely to be psychic, given that you are friends. If it's 'from this selection of random words I have selected X at random', then that's more likely to be psychic.

Mendeli · 2nd May 2006, 03:08 AM

How have you tested this ability?

Any "blind" tests?

if you're talking to your friend now telepathically, is there a chance that she will remember that discussion next time you see her?

Nucular · 2nd May 2006, 04:32 AM

Welcome, Neutralize.

What kinds of experiences have you had which have made you believe you're psychic?

Have you read around the area? A search of this website will probably throw up all sorts of reasons why some people think they're psychic, but may in fact be mistaken.

Nevertheless, if you have some degree of control over your possible ability, it's probably quite easily testable, when the challenge is back up and running again. Have you had any ideas for a testing procedure?

TheBoyPaj · 2nd May 2006, 08:25 AM

Good luck Neutralise! Hopefully the application mechanism will be up and running again soon.

SirPhilip · 2nd May 2006, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by Neutralize

Hello skeptics. Today I mailed my application form for the challenge. I am claiming to have the ability to read my friends thoughts. I am claiming that we have telepathy. I am very certain of this because this has been like this for over a year.

Well, this seems (deceptively?) simplistic to test: just ensure there are no devices, isolate both subjects and use whatever thought-form they wish to send to the other (if complex, impressive images are too much "overload", then simple strings of words will surely suffice) to determine a chance figure higher than 70%.

petre · 2nd May 2006, 09:28 AM

Plenty of folks are already directing you to ways to improve your chances with the challenge, so I'll just correct the shortage of people wishing you...

Good Luck!

ChristineR · 2nd May 2006, 09:32 AM

The ideal message is something like a number from 1-6 or a playing card. There are 52 (common) playing cards, and there's no ambiguity between them.

Single words also work well, but then you are open to the problem of synonyms and misspellings. You sent knife, she read dagger--hit or miss? Or you sent knife, she wrote nife.

Pictures and ideas are also possible, but then there are a lot of possible pictures that could be considered matches. If you want to work with more abstract thoughts, I would suggest making a list of twenty or so distinct objects (pizza, automobile, shoe) that can't really be mistaken for one another, throw a die to pick one of the objects, and send that one.

Ripley Twenty-Nine · 2nd May 2006, 10:56 AM

Neutralize, if I could give you one piece of advice, it would be this: Keep it simple! You seem to have a very simple and easily testable claim; Try and keep it this way.

If you start to needlessly complicate the process, and start evading, you will encounter hostility on the forums here. If that bothers you, you should stop reading the forums immediately. However, if you keep it simple and stick to your claim, you will receive immense support from the forum. We are skeptics, but we are rooting for you. We would like nothing more than to see psychic powers proven!

Do it, and you've changed science as we know it, and you're $1,000,000 richer! Good luck!

tkingdoll · 2nd May 2006, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by ChristineR

Pictures and ideas are also possible, but then there are a lot of possible pictures that could be considered matches. If you want to work with more abstract thoughts, I would suggest making a list of twenty or so distinct objects (pizza, automobile, shoe) that can't really be mistaken for one another, throw a die to pick one of the objects, and send that one.

And of course, don't share the list of pictures with the other person in advance

Thing · 2nd May 2006, 11:13 AM

Neutralize,
Once the application procedure is restarted and yours is considered it's by no means impossible that you may be asked to provide notarized affidavits from people you've demonstrated your mind reading to.

Out of interest, would you be willing to tell us whether you have managed to convince anyone else of your abilities yet?

shemp · 2nd May 2006, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Neutralize

Hello skeptics. Today I mailed my application form for the challenge. I am claiming to have the ability to read my friends thoughts. I am claiming that we have telepathy. I am very certain of this because this has been like this for over a year.

I predict you won't win. You owe me $1 million.

ChristineR · 2nd May 2006, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

And of course, don't share the list of pictures with the other person in advance

Actually no, my protocol has you sharing the list in advance. This is a protocol for people who can send pictures but not numbers for some reason. Both sender and receiver look at the pictures. Then sender goes into the other room, rolls a die to pick a picture and concentrates on the picture. Receiver reviews the pictures and chooses the one that matches.

That way there is no question of "sort of" matching. For example, if a picture of a building was sent and the receiver saw a building, there could be a question whether they are the same buildings. But if the receiver says "I saw a building, as in picture 7," then the only question is whether the sent picture was seven or not.

TheBoyPaj · 2nd May 2006, 02:07 PM

That's probably the way Randi would call it, too. Give both parties access to the list of pictures, then they just have to get the order right. It prevents questions of interpretation and forces the receiver to judge the similarity for themselves.

Lamuella · 2nd May 2006, 03:13 PM

The very best of luck with this, Neutralize.

The next step for you is to make sure you have a test protocol that will demonstrate your powers. In order for this demonstration to be as successful as possible, it should be something that has a calculable and high improbability, if performed randomly. From what people have told me, a probability of around 1 in 1000 is necessary for the preliminary test. Here's an idea for a test that would give 1 in 1000 probability of random success:

Take a pack of cards, divide into suits, and remove all the face cards, leaving you with four stacks of ten cards, running from ace to ten in each case. Take away the hearts, leaving you with three stacks. Someone other than you shuffles each stack of ten cards. Draw a card from the first deck at exactly 10:00 AM and concentrate on it for five minutes. Draw a card from the second deck at exactly 10:05. Draw a card from the third deck at exactly 10:10.

The odds of your receiver writing down the numbers you draw by random chance are around 1 in 1000.

Whichever way you decide to go with this, best of luck!

Admiral · 2nd May 2006, 03:53 PM

I want to join the other members of the forum in wishing you good luck.

Would you mind sharing with us the claim letter that you sent in with the application?

tkingdoll · 2nd May 2006, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by ChristineR

Actually no, my protocol has you sharing the list in advance. This is a protocol for people who can send pictures but not numbers for some reason. Both sender and receiver look at the pictures. Then sender goes into the other room, rolls a die to pick a picture and concentrates on the picture. Receiver reviews the pictures and chooses the one that matches.

That way there is no question of "sort of" matching. For example, if a picture of a building was sent and the receiver saw a building, there could be a question whether they are the same buildings. But if the receiver says "I saw a building, as in picture 7," then the only question is whether the sent picture was seven or not.

Ah, I getcha. Yes, that makes sense, although I then don't see the difference between that and the numbers 1-20. Why not just 'send' the number?

Lamuella · 2nd May 2006, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

Ah, I getcha. Yes, that makes sense, although I then don't see the difference between that and the numbers 1-20. Why not just 'send' the number?

I think the idea is that some people don't receive numbers very well and are more receptive to images.

tkingdoll · 2nd May 2006, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Lamuella

I think the idea is that some people don't receive numbers very well and are more receptive to images.

So if I draw the number 8 with a big marker pen, then I draw a very basic snowman with no features, the difference is...?

Lamuella · 2nd May 2006, 04:13 PM

to me? Not so much.

However, some people remember concepts better than data. Which is easier to remember, a sequence of 25 digits in base 12, or the tune to "happy birthday"?

GzuzKryzt · 2nd May 2006, 04:18 PM

Hi Neutralize,

looking forward to your application getting processed. We have to remain patient until Mr. Randi gives the starting signal.

Should you have any questions regarding your protocol - I assume your application will get accepted - we will help you to the best of our abilities; as it already happens in this thread.

Finally, an application. Yeah. I hope you did your homework and read this: http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html

Good luck, Neutralize, and welcome to the JREF Forum.

tkingdoll · 2nd May 2006, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Lamuella

to me? Not so much.

However, some people remember concepts better than data. Which is easier to remember, a sequence of 25 digits in base 12, or the tune to "happy birthday"?

I get that, but I don't get how sending a psychic image of a drawing of a number can be any different to sending a psychic image of a drawing of a snowman. Isn't it just visualising the picture in front of you and sending it over? Or do numbers have some special power-blocking ability? What if it's a fairly abstract drawing of a number? Does the receiver have to be able to recognise the image in order to replicate it (for example, if you sent over an image of an animal they'd never seen, like a naked mole-rat, would they be able to recreate that image on paper or would it only work with animals they recognised?)

Lamuella · 2nd May 2006, 04:26 PM

well, it depends how the communication works.

If it works by sending thoughts, then there shouldn't be anything to stop you sending a number one. If it relies on sending memories or feelings, there might be more trouble.

Have you ever had a dream where you were reading a book or a computer screen? I had one last night. I was trying to type a website URL onto the screen and I kept screwing it up. For whatever reason, the part of my brain that usually handled the comprehension of written words and stringing them together in coherent form wasn't working right. However, I got a very clear sense of where I was, what I felt about the people around me and so forth. It was just reading and writing that were beyond me.

It could be that this communication ability connects to feelings or images rather than to developed higher-brain concepts like words and numbers.

tkingdoll · 2nd May 2006, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Lamuella

well, it depends how the communication works.

If it works by sending thoughts, then there shouldn't be anything to stop you sending a number one. If it relies on sending memories or feelings, there might be more trouble.

Have you ever had a dream where you were reading a book or a computer screen? I had one last night. I was trying to type a website URL onto the screen and I kept screwing it up. For whatever reason, the part of my brain that usually handled the comprehension of written words and stringing them together in coherent form wasn't working right. However, I got a very clear sense of where I was, what I felt about the people around me and so forth. It was just reading and writing that were beyond me.

It could be that this communication ability connects to feelings or images rather than to developed higher-brain concepts like words and numbers.

Sorry, I'm confused. What's the difference between a thought and a memory, exactly? And, physically, how are you defining 'feelings'?

Lamuella · 2nd May 2006, 04:45 PM

sorry, I'm explaining myself very badly.

I don't think you can transmit anything telepathically anyway.

all I was trying to say was that the part of the brain that deals with numbers and other components of language and the part of the brain that deals with images are different. It could be that the connection this person has with their receiver allows them to get an idea of what he is looking at or thinking about without anything as clear cut as the number seven coming through.

I apologize for this not being very clear. As I'm not the challenge applicant, I have no idea what kind of connection he has or claims to have.

tkingdoll · 2nd May 2006, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Lamuella

sorry, I'm explaining myself very badly.

I don't think you can transmit anything telepathically anyway.

all I was trying to say was that the part of the brain that deals with numbers and other components of language and the part of the brain that deals with images are different. It could be that the connection this person has with their receiver allows them to get an idea of what he is looking at or thinking about without anything as clear cut as the number seven coming through.

I apologize for this not being very clear. As I'm not the challenge applicant, I have no idea what kind of connection he has or claims to have.

That's OK, I'm understanding badly, so we're even

I think the main problem is that what you are suggesting sounds like a plausible explanation (especially if one was claiming to have such powers), but when you examine it closely, for example, what if you are visualising a picture of a number rather than the number itself, the hypothesis falls apart somewhat.

But my experience is that these claims don't stand up to that sort of scrutiny anyway, in that as there is no physical explanation for them, it's little use trying to rationalise any particular exception in mundane terms. Psychics are likely to say they don't know why it's a particular way, it just is.

hellaeon · 2nd May 2006, 05:30 PM

Good luck with your test mate.

A suggestion for practice is getting a neutral third party to ask you to write a number down at a specific time, the friend should be away from the location or at least inaccessible to you. They try to 'receive' what your sending. You could try doing it every minute for ten minutes (start with numbers 1-10). Be sure the tester is aware of the situation. They are not there to help but make life hard for you. Its a test.

Only my thoughts though.

ChristineR · 2nd May 2006, 05:40 PM

The only obvious reason I could think of for preferring pictures of pictures of numbers would be that someone might confuse 6 and 9. After all, we don't know that telepathy might not invert pictures.

You could go on in this way. What's actually transmitted might be a blurry visual image, or it might be a histogram of the different colors in the image, or sounds or smells. The important point is to choose something that the claiment feels he can easily work with and something unambiguous.

A lot of the early "positive" telepathy experiments were remote viewing and pictures. Someone would draw a picture and the "telepath" would sketch a cylinder or a blob and people would call it a hit. I think some people still get hits this way when experimenting with their friends.

Neutralize says he/she has been reading friend's thoughts, which is something that is difficult to objectively judge. So I was looking for a protocol which could use a list of things that friends often think about, but with no ambiguous interpretations. A set of twenty pictures of everyday objects could work. The claiment simply has to choose twenty objects that can be distinguished by telepathy. If there is a possible problem with homonyms, or similar tastes, or colors, the claiment just chooses objects that don't have that problem.

Gr8wight · 2nd May 2006, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by nathan

Have you read this thread ? http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=28936. The protocol used there is described in post 23 of that thread.

Is that something like you envision? If not, can you be more specific than what you wrote above?

Also informative, and possibly related to your claim might be this thread:http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=30676

thaiboxerken · 2nd May 2006, 07:04 PM

It amazes me that people actually believe that they have superpowers.

SirPhilip · 2nd May 2006, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

It amazes me that people actually believe that they have superpowers.

"Super" is a relative term - Gellar considers spoon bending a profound and inspiring human achievement (the only two other known public figures supportive of this notion being Michael Jackson and the Wachowski Brothers), while David Copperfield shakes his head and sighs. Sylvia Browne thinks wrapping herself up in a multi-colored tarp and playing dice with people's feelings is right conduct and a charming way to approach the absolute. Benny Hinn thinks crudely executed stage hypnosis is a way to get rich quick (and goddamint, he's right). Ok, back to reality. My co-worker can shoot 2 foot balls of fire out of his rear end. Ok, so it isn't breaking any conserved constants, but it can approach a practical comic book superpower at times. One time he seriously let the cat out of the bag and unleased one that we all agreed would make at least Batman pivot to one side.

thaiboxerken · 2nd May 2006, 08:31 PM

No, it's not. Superpowers = supernatural powers.

Flange Desire · 2nd May 2006, 11:04 PM

Welcome Neutralize.
Other posters have given you plenty of good advice to get you started.
Look forward to seeing your test protocol developed.

2nd May 2006, 01:21 AM	#1
Neutralize New Blood Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 21	Sent in my application today. Hello skeptics. Today I mailed my application form for the challenge. I am claiming to have the ability to read my friends thoughts. I am claiming that we have telepathy. I am very certain of this because this has been like this for over a year.
Neutralize New Blood Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 21

2nd May 2006, 01:43 AM	#3
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Originally Posted by Neutralize Hello skeptics. Today I mailed my application form for the challenge. I am claiming to have the ability to read my friends thoughts. I am claiming that we have telepathy. I am very certain of this because this has been like this for over a year. Welcome to the Forum - you may want to read this: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=54571
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

2nd May 2006, 01:43 AM	#4
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	Originally Posted by skullerello If I predict that I won't have won The Challenge by the 5th of May, will I therefore automatically win it? Neutralize, would you be willing to share your suggested test protocol with us?
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

2nd May 2006, 01:50 AM	#5
Ausmerican Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,381	Reading your friends thoughts? Thats not psychic. Thats a result of being friends and knowing each other well. Also, there is a probability that you became friends because you think alike about many things in the first place. Try reading a strangers mind and you may have something.
Ausmerican Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,381	__________________ Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing. Henry David Thoreau

2nd May 2006, 01:51 AM	#6
Neutralize New Blood Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 21	Test protocol I would consider a test with me being supervised, and my lady friend as well by members or representatives from JREF. This could even work with us far apart like across town. I am positive that I could successfully transfer thoughts to her, and she could say what I am thinking or whatever. i am talking to her right now.
Neutralize New Blood Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 21

2nd May 2006, 01:33 AM	#2
skullerello a force for cool Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 652	If I predict that I won't have won The Challenge by the 5th of May, will I therefore automatically win it?

2nd May 2006, 02:20 AM	#7
Lothian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: https://twitter.com/CV4UK Posts: 10,373	Originally Posted by Neutralize I would consider a test with me being supervised, and my lady friend as well by members or representatives from JREF. This could even work with us far apart like across town. I am positive that I could successfully transfer thoughts to her, and she could say what I am thinking or whatever. i am talking to her right now. How about a simple experiment where you pick a playing card from a pack and think about it and your friend writes the name of card down. Repeat twice. You can practice at home. At 10 o clock, say, you pick a card and think about it for 5 mins. At 5 past 10 you pick the next card. At 10 past 10 pick a third card then at quarter past you can compare the cards you chose with the 3 cards your friend (in a different room) has recorded. If they are all right you will have great chance of being able to pass a proper challenge.
	Last edited by Lothian; 2nd May 2006 at 02:38 AM.

2nd May 2006, 02:27 AM	#8
nathan Zygoticly Phased Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arkham City Posts: 3,166	Originally Posted by Neutralize I would consider a test with me being supervised, and my lady friend as well by members or representatives from JREF. This could even work with us far apart like across town. I am positive that I could successfully transfer thoughts to her, and she could say what I am thinking or whatever. i am talking to her right now. Have you read this thread ? http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=28936. The protocol used there is described in post 23 of that thread. Is that something like you envision? If not, can you be more specific than what you wrote above?

2nd May 2006, 02:32 AM	#9
nathan Zygoticly Phased Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arkham City Posts: 3,166	Originally Posted by Ausmerican Reading your friends thoughts? Thats not psychic. Not _necessarily_ psychic. It all depends on the specifity of the thoughts being read. If the thought is 'hey, I'd like to go see movie X', then that's unlikely to be psychic, given that you are friends. If it's 'from this selection of random words I have selected X at random', then that's more likely to be psychic.

2nd May 2006, 03:08 AM	#10
Mendeli Thinker Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 166	How have you tested this ability? Any "blind" tests? if you're talking to your friend now telepathically, is there a chance that she will remember that discussion next time you see her?
Mendeli Thinker Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 166	__________________ I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok.

2nd May 2006, 04:32 AM	#11
Nucular Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream Posts: 3,050	Welcome, Neutralize. What kinds of experiences have you had which have made you believe you're psychic? Have you read around the area? A search of this website will probably throw up all sorts of reasons why some people think they're psychic, but may in fact be mistaken. Nevertheless, if you have some degree of control over your possible ability, it's probably quite easily testable, when the challenge is back up and running again. Have you had any ideas for a testing procedure?
	__________________ From the UK? Sceptical? Like forums? Well my psychic powers tell me that the UK Skeptics' Forum is for you - 8 out of 10 sceptics demand to know where these figures came from. Non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli (Flen Flyys, c.15th Century) Get out of my head, Nucular (kmortis)

2nd May 2006, 08:25 AM	#12
TheBoyPaj Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,661	Good luck Neutralise! Hopefully the application mechanism will be up and running again soon.
	__________________ Paj sits down and sings about gold.

2nd May 2006, 09:11 AM	#13
SirPhilip Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Athens, Ohio Posts: 2,444	Originally Posted by Neutralize Hello skeptics. Today I mailed my application form for the challenge. I am claiming to have the ability to read my friends thoughts. I am claiming that we have telepathy. I am very certain of this because this has been like this for over a year. Well, this seems (deceptively?) simplistic to test: just ensure there are no devices, isolate both subjects and use whatever thought-form they wish to send to the other (if complex, impressive images are too much "overload", then simple strings of words will surely suffice) to determine a chance figure higher than 70%.

2nd May 2006, 09:28 AM	#14
petre Muse Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 887	Plenty of folks are already directing you to ways to improve your chances with the challenge, so I'll just correct the shortage of people wishing you... Good Luck!
petre Muse Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 887

2nd May 2006, 09:32 AM	#15
ChristineR Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,189	The ideal message is something like a number from 1-6 or a playing card. There are 52 (common) playing cards, and there's no ambiguity between them. Single words also work well, but then you are open to the problem of synonyms and misspellings. You sent knife, she read dagger--hit or miss? Or you sent knife, she wrote nife. Pictures and ideas are also possible, but then there are a lot of possible pictures that could be considered matches. If you want to work with more abstract thoughts, I would suggest making a list of twenty or so distinct objects (pizza, automobile, shoe) that can't really be mistaken for one another, throw a die to pick one of the objects, and send that one.
ChristineR Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,189	__________________ Avatar (c) Neopets.com

2nd May 2006, 10:56 AM	#16
Ripley Twenty-Nine Muse Join Date: May 2005 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 867	Neutralize, if I could give you one piece of advice, it would be this: Keep it simple! You seem to have a very simple and easily testable claim; Try and keep it this way. If you start to needlessly complicate the process, and start evading, you will encounter hostility on the forums here. If that bothers you, you should stop reading the forums immediately. However, if you keep it simple and stick to your claim, you will receive immense support from the forum. We are skeptics, but we are rooting for you. We would like nothing more than to see psychic powers proven! Do it, and you've changed science as we know it, and you're $1,000,000 richer! Good luck!
	__________________ Ripley 29 "Professor, without knowing precisely what the danger is, would you say it's time for our viewers to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?" "Yes I would, Kent."

2nd May 2006, 11:09 AM	#17
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	Originally Posted by ChristineR Pictures and ideas are also possible, but then there are a lot of possible pictures that could be considered matches. If you want to work with more abstract thoughts, I would suggest making a list of twenty or so distinct objects (pizza, automobile, shoe) that can't really be mistaken for one another, throw a die to pick one of the objects, and send that one. And of course, don't share the list of pictures with the other person in advance
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

2nd May 2006, 11:13 AM	#18
Thing ...now with added haecceity! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Beside myself Posts: 512	Neutralize, Once the application procedure is restarted and yours is considered it's by no means impossible that you may be asked to provide notarized affidavits from people you've demonstrated your mind reading to. Out of interest, would you be willing to tell us whether you have managed to convince anyone else of your abilities yet?
	__________________ One evening I came home to find my wife dissolved in tears. After crystallizing her over a bunsen burner, I managed to elicit the reason. S. J. Perelman

2nd May 2006, 11:24 AM	#19
shemp Timothy, Timothy, where on earth did you go? Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: trapped in a cave-in with Joe Posts: 12,896	Originally Posted by Neutralize Hello skeptics. Today I mailed my application form for the challenge. I am claiming to have the ability to read my friends thoughts. I am claiming that we have telepathy. I am very certain of this because this has been like this for over a year. I predict you won't win. You owe me $1 million.
	__________________ Church on Sunday, sleep and nod Tryin' to duck the wrath of God Preacher's fillin' us with fright Tryin' to tell us what he thinks is right He really got to be some kind of nut (I can't use it!) Tryin' to make it real - compared to what?

2nd May 2006, 01:55 PM	#20
ChristineR Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,189	Originally Posted by tkingdoll And of course, don't share the list of pictures with the other person in advance Actually no, my protocol has you sharing the list in advance. This is a protocol for people who can send pictures but not numbers for some reason. Both sender and receiver look at the pictures. Then sender goes into the other room, rolls a die to pick a picture and concentrates on the picture. Receiver reviews the pictures and chooses the one that matches. That way there is no question of "sort of" matching. For example, if a picture of a building was sent and the receiver saw a building, there could be a question whether they are the same buildings. But if the receiver says "I saw a building, as in picture 7," then the only question is whether the sent picture was seven or not.
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2nd May 2006, 02:07 PM	#21
TheBoyPaj Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,661	That's probably the way Randi would call it, too. Give both parties access to the list of pictures, then they just have to get the order right. It prevents questions of interpretation and forces the receiver to judge the similarity for themselves.
	__________________ Paj sits down and sings about gold.

2nd May 2006, 03:13 PM	#22
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	The very best of luck with this, Neutralize. The next step for you is to make sure you have a test protocol that will demonstrate your powers. In order for this demonstration to be as successful as possible, it should be something that has a calculable and high improbability, if performed randomly. From what people have told me, a probability of around 1 in 1000 is necessary for the preliminary test. Here's an idea for a test that would give 1 in 1000 probability of random success: Take a pack of cards, divide into suits, and remove all the face cards, leaving you with four stacks of ten cards, running from ace to ten in each case. Take away the hearts, leaving you with three stacks. Someone other than you shuffles each stack of ten cards. Draw a card from the first deck at exactly 10:00 AM and concentrate on it for five minutes. Draw a card from the second deck at exactly 10:05. Draw a card from the third deck at exactly 10:10. The odds of your receiver writing down the numbers you draw by random chance are around 1 in 1000. Whichever way you decide to go with this, best of luck!
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2nd May 2006, 03:53 PM	#23
Admiral Commander of the Fleet of Justice Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 770	I want to join the other members of the forum in wishing you good luck. Would you mind sharing with us the claim letter that you sent in with the application?
	__________________ "Crazy people don't know they're going crazy. They think they're getting saner." -Locke, from Lost

2nd May 2006, 04:00 PM	#24
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	Originally Posted by ChristineR Actually no, my protocol has you sharing the list in advance. This is a protocol for people who can send pictures but not numbers for some reason. Both sender and receiver look at the pictures. Then sender goes into the other room, rolls a die to pick a picture and concentrates on the picture. Receiver reviews the pictures and chooses the one that matches. That way there is no question of "sort of" matching. For example, if a picture of a building was sent and the receiver saw a building, there could be a question whether they are the same buildings. But if the receiver says "I saw a building, as in picture 7," then the only question is whether the sent picture was seven or not. Ah, I getcha. Yes, that makes sense, although I then don't see the difference between that and the numbers 1-20. Why not just 'send' the number?
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

2nd May 2006, 04:04 PM	#25
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	Originally Posted by tkingdoll Ah, I getcha. Yes, that makes sense, although I then don't see the difference between that and the numbers 1-20. Why not just 'send' the number? I think the idea is that some people don't receive numbers very well and are more receptive to images.
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2nd May 2006, 04:08 PM	#26
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	Originally Posted by Lamuella I think the idea is that some people don't receive numbers very well and are more receptive to images. So if I draw the number 8 with a big marker pen, then I draw a very basic snowman with no features, the difference is...?
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

2nd May 2006, 04:13 PM	#27
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	to me? Not so much. However, some people remember concepts better than data. Which is easier to remember, a sequence of 25 digits in base 12, or the tune to "happy birthday"?
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2nd May 2006, 04:18 PM	#28
GzuzKryzt Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 6,367	Hi Neutralize, looking forward to your application getting processed. We have to remain patient until Mr. Randi gives the starting signal. Should you have any questions regarding your protocol - I assume your application will get accepted - we will help you to the best of our abilities; as it already happens in this thread. Finally, an application. Yeah. I hope you did your homework and read this: http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html Good luck, Neutralize, and welcome to the JREF Forum.
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2nd May 2006, 04:20 PM	#29
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	Originally Posted by Lamuella to me? Not so much. However, some people remember concepts better than data. Which is easier to remember, a sequence of 25 digits in base 12, or the tune to "happy birthday"? I get that, but I don't get how sending a psychic image of a drawing of a number can be any different to sending a psychic image of a drawing of a snowman. Isn't it just visualising the picture in front of you and sending it over? Or do numbers have some special power-blocking ability? What if it's a fairly abstract drawing of a number? Does the receiver have to be able to recognise the image in order to replicate it (for example, if you sent over an image of an animal they'd never seen, like a naked mole-rat, would they be able to recreate that image on paper or would it only work with animals they recognised?)
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

2nd May 2006, 04:26 PM	#30
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	well, it depends how the communication works. If it works by sending thoughts, then there shouldn't be anything to stop you sending a number one. If it relies on sending memories or feelings, there might be more trouble. Have you ever had a dream where you were reading a book or a computer screen? I had one last night. I was trying to type a website URL onto the screen and I kept screwing it up. For whatever reason, the part of my brain that usually handled the comprehension of written words and stringing them together in coherent form wasn't working right. However, I got a very clear sense of where I was, what I felt about the people around me and so forth. It was just reading and writing that were beyond me. It could be that this communication ability connects to feelings or images rather than to developed higher-brain concepts like words and numbers.
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2nd May 2006, 04:34 PM	#31
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	Originally Posted by Lamuella well, it depends how the communication works. If it works by sending thoughts, then there shouldn't be anything to stop you sending a number one. If it relies on sending memories or feelings, there might be more trouble. Have you ever had a dream where you were reading a book or a computer screen? I had one last night. I was trying to type a website URL onto the screen and I kept screwing it up. For whatever reason, the part of my brain that usually handled the comprehension of written words and stringing them together in coherent form wasn't working right. However, I got a very clear sense of where I was, what I felt about the people around me and so forth. It was just reading and writing that were beyond me. It could be that this communication ability connects to feelings or images rather than to developed higher-brain concepts like words and numbers. Sorry, I'm confused. What's the difference between a thought and a memory, exactly? And, physically, how are you defining 'feelings'?
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

2nd May 2006, 04:45 PM	#32
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	sorry, I'm explaining myself very badly. I don't think you can transmit anything telepathically anyway. all I was trying to say was that the part of the brain that deals with numbers and other components of language and the part of the brain that deals with images are different. It could be that the connection this person has with their receiver allows them to get an idea of what he is looking at or thinking about without anything as clear cut as the number seven coming through. I apologize for this not being very clear. As I'm not the challenge applicant, I have no idea what kind of connection he has or claims to have.
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480

2nd May 2006, 04:51 PM	#33
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,471	Originally Posted by Lamuella sorry, I'm explaining myself very badly. I don't think you can transmit anything telepathically anyway. all I was trying to say was that the part of the brain that deals with numbers and other components of language and the part of the brain that deals with images are different. It could be that the connection this person has with their receiver allows them to get an idea of what he is looking at or thinking about without anything as clear cut as the number seven coming through. I apologize for this not being very clear. As I'm not the challenge applicant, I have no idea what kind of connection he has or claims to have. That's OK, I'm understanding badly, so we're even I think the main problem is that what you are suggesting sounds like a plausible explanation (especially if one was claiming to have such powers), but when you examine it closely, for example, what if you are visualising a picture of a number rather than the number itself, the hypothesis falls apart somewhat. But my experience is that these claims don't stand up to that sort of scrutiny anyway, in that as there is no physical explanation for them, it's little use trying to rationalise any particular exception in mundane terms. Psychics are likely to say they don't know why it's a particular way, it just is.
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie

2nd May 2006, 05:30 PM	#34
hellaeon Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: City of Burning Churches, Australia Posts: 1,493	Good luck with your test mate. A suggestion for practice is getting a neutral third party to ask you to write a number down at a specific time, the friend should be away from the location or at least inaccessible to you. They try to 'receive' what your sending. You could try doing it every minute for ten minutes (start with numbers 1-10). Be sure the tester is aware of the situation. They are not there to help but make life hard for you. Its a test. Only my thoughts though.
	__________________ Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. - Carl Sagan I don't exactly have a Phd in physics. I have something much better. Common sense. - pagan How does one change their mind without losing face after staunchly supporting a single point of view for years? It's quite alright, you are expected to maintain your opinion even if those responsible for 9/11 confess to their crimes. - Irony, MirageMemories style

2nd May 2006, 05:40 PM	#35
ChristineR Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,189	The only obvious reason I could think of for preferring pictures of pictures of numbers would be that someone might confuse 6 and 9. After all, we don't know that telepathy might not invert pictures. You could go on in this way. What's actually transmitted might be a blurry visual image, or it might be a histogram of the different colors in the image, or sounds or smells. The important point is to choose something that the claiment feels he can easily work with and something unambiguous. A lot of the early "positive" telepathy experiments were remote viewing and pictures. Someone would draw a picture and the "telepath" would sketch a cylinder or a blob and people would call it a hit. I think some people still get hits this way when experimenting with their friends. Neutralize says he/she has been reading friend's thoughts, which is something that is difficult to objectively judge. So I was looking for a protocol which could use a list of things that friends often think about, but with no ambiguous interpretations. A set of twenty pictures of everyday objects could work. The claiment simply has to choose twenty objects that can be distinguished by telepathy. If there is a possible problem with homonyms, or similar tastes, or colors, the claiment just chooses objects that don't have that problem.
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