God Please explain!

[fuelair]

all eternity - and the same for arguing from others. There is/has been no controlled, scientific experiment or testable evidence of the existence of a god or gods. However, IF there is a god as we - mostly (I can fairly well speak for Methodist, Baptist, Catholic and three types of Judaism here) -understand it (all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful) then, as Sam Clemens said it most truthfully "God is a malign thug!"

[Suzan]

Originally Posted by HerNibs

If I am an all powerful, all knowing parent and I know that my child is going to get hurt on a bike and I am able to prevent it, then yep, I am responsible.

I am not an all powerful parent, I am not all knowing. I KNOW that things will happen that I cannot prevent.

Comparing what I will do with what a god CAN do is not reasonable. I do not claim that I can and do control, create and allow everything.

He does not claim to control you....either! He gave you free will!

You just said you were responsible for your children. You are required to watch them....you cannot predict an auto accident, or some other force but you "know" it can happen. Yet, I am sure you let your children take some risks...knowing there are risks. You don't allow everything..... I am sure you have rules in place and expect them to follow them. If they don't there are consequences.....punishment. It is the same with God as it is with your own children. If your children....think themselves smarter then you (can you tell I have teenagers? lol) and they do things that are harmful.... out side of your control, that is not your fault. I could go on further to say, peers should be taught (and mine are!) that they are to watch out for their friends. And hopefully their friends are such that they watch out for my child as well. Love your neighbor as yourself?
If you don't let your child....ride that bike, because you fear an accident. Then that child might not learn balance, or worse yet....may learn to fear....your fears! (as an example).
We buy our children bike's, give them proper instruction, watch them. Eventually they ride off..... and we pray.
God, gave us life, and proper instruction, he watches. Eventually we ride off.....and he hears prayers.


"God made us....and set it in motion. It is up to us to watch our own children.
Is it a parents fault...if a child strikes his brother or sister? no...they did it on their own. It is up to you to watch them and take care and set rules in place to follow....but you can count on them being broken- free will. You could however tape them to chairs...to prevent it, but then that is not living...is it?"

If I know that one of my children is going to strike or kill another of my children and I sit back and allow it, watch it happen, then YEP, I am responsible. You don't allow it when it is in your control, but eventually your children will not be in your site. That is why children must be watched. You and I are adults, if I smack you.....is it my Mom's fault? God's fault? No..... It would be my own, I am accountable for my own actions, regardless of whether my mother taught me that or not.

So, are you sayin that god is an absent parent? An irresponsible parent?

For me, He is not absent. I go to him all the time. I follow the instructions left for me. sometimes I fall down....but I get back up.

This brings us straight back to the original post/question, that you have not effectively answered. My example is -

I lost a child. At birth. I was careful during my pregnancy. Ate correctly, exercised, etc.

This child lived a few moments. Painful moments. No time to do or offend any one or anything.

Why was this child subjected to nothing but a short life of pain?

In my faith..... Your child nor you....did anything wrong, and you are both innocent. I am sorry that happened to you. I don't know what happened with your child, if it were hereditary as you didn't say. But, for what ever reason I am sure that it was/is devastating for you. I am so sorry for your loss.

In your question, of such a short life of pain...which is hard for me to even comment on, (I feel) now that it is done... that ....that child, who is innocent will go on ever lasting to the next life. I don't believe he/she is just gone. And served no purpose in its short life. It may have been brief, but the chid was valuable. I don't believe that it was God's will for that to happen to you, or the child. I believe however, it is his will.....that the child go on. I don't believe it just ends here....I believe there is more.

[HerNibs]

Originally Posted by fuelair

all eternity - and the same for arguing from others. There is/has been no controlled, scientific experiment or testable evidence of the existence of a god or gods. However, IF there is a god as we - mostly (I can fairly well speak for Methodist, Baptist, Catholic and three types of Judaism here) -understand it (all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful) then, as Sam Clemens said it most truthfully "God is a malign thug!"

correct. No evidence, nothing testable, etc. Yes, thug. I agree.

I also realize that I could be doing more useful things with my time but I do find the debate interesting.

Just as I, as an atheist, have been asked to admit that there is a possibility of a god, I would like to hear "ok, maybe there is no god or if there is, he is an uncaring thug and I have no proof of any of it".

[HerNibs]

Originally Posted by Suzan

In my faith..... Your child nor you....did anything wrong, and you are both innocent. I am sorry that happened to you. I don't know what happened with your child, if it were hereditary as you didn't say. But, for what ever reason I am sure that it was/is devastating for you. I am so sorry for your loss.

In your question, of such a short life of pain...which is hard for me to even comment on, (I feel) now that it is done... that ....that child, who is innocent will go on ever lasting to the next life. I don't believe he/she is just gone. And served no purpose in its short life. It may have been brief, but the chid was valuable. I don't believe that it was God's will for that to happen to you, or the child. I believe however, it is his will.....that the child go on. I don't believe it just ends here....I believe there is more.

How is it not god's will if he is all powerful and could have stopped it?

You are correct, my child was valuable and deserved more than an "oops" from an all powerful being. I do not believe in an afterlife and certainly would not hope that this child has to spend it with such an uncaring, irresponsible, absent and overall useless creature.

[Suzan]

Originally Posted by HerNibs

How is it not god's will if he is all powerful and could have stopped it?

You are correct, my child was valuable and deserved more than an "oops" from an all powerful being. I do not believe in an afterlife and certainly would not hope that this child has to spend it with such an uncaring, irresponsible, absent and overall useless creature.

You made the child's body, in your womb. God made the soul....it did have one yes? When the body failed for what ever earthly reason, (genetics, sickness..infection) the soul went back where it came from.

There is really no fault here. Not yours, Not God's nor the childs.

I am truly sorry for your loss....

[Admiral]

Suzan, have you ever read the book of Job? It's fascinating- every religion basically needs some sort of excuse for why good people suffer and wicked people suffer. The book of Job contains the last time God speaks in the Bible, as well as the only appearance of Satan.

My personal favorite Bible verse comes from it: Job 4:20- "If I sin, what do I do to you, you watcher of humanity?" It's a question God never answers to my satisfaction.

[Suzan]

Originally Posted by Admiral

Suzan, have you ever read the book of Job? It's fascinating- every religion basically needs some sort of excuse for why good people suffer and wicked people suffer. The book of Job contains the last time God speaks in the Bible, as well as the only appearance of Satan.

My personal favorite Bible verse comes from it: Job 4:20- "If I sin, what do I do to you, you watcher of humanity?" It's a question God never answers to my satisfaction.

I have read it, but I will re-read it again tonight and see.

It is a powerful example....your right.

[HerNibs]

Originally Posted by Suzan

You made the child's body, in your womb. God made the soul....it did have one yes? When the body failed for what ever earthly reason, (genetics, sickness..infection) the soul went back where it came from.

There is really no fault here. Not yours, Not God's nor the childs.

I am truly sorry for your loss....

Not discussing a soul.

I asked - How is it not god's will if he is all powerful and could have stopped it?

I see it as (mind you, I'm an atheist, I am just following the discussion)
1. god is all powerful and doesn't give a #$%@ about the pain of innocents.
2. god isn't all powerful
3. (Insert your answer here.)

[Suzan]

Originally Posted by HerNibs

Not discussing a soul.

I asked - How is it not god's will if he is all powerful and could have stopped it?

I see it as (mind you, I'm an atheist, I am just following the discussion)
1. god is all powerful and doesn't give a #$%@ about the pain of innocents.
2. god isn't all powerful
3. (Insert your answer here.)

1. God is all powerful, and he laid down the rules...he cannot changed them less he be a hypocrite, and liar. He does care if your in pain, and through prayer we can make a difference (faith). When we pray...we don't say, I want it now! We say if it is your will...because we cannot see the whole picture..
(watch bruce all mighty, its a whacky way of getting that point across.)
2. God is all powerful- He acts on his own and he also acts on our faith in him.
3. I am not sure what you wanted to me to put here. But,
I can say this, in our discussion we are talking about... God and his responsibility to us. It is our responsibility to take care of our children, here you and I agree. It is also up to us to take care of the weaker... sick, etc.
It is also up to us, to be careful what we put in our heads. If I fill my head with scripture....which speaks of things such as forgiveness, understanding...patience, virtue, hope, responsibility..etc. then those are the things I think on... I become. Where I know my body came from my mother...and I am in charge of it. And I am also responsible for my childrens health (to a point) I know that my spirit is from God. My mother didn't make it, she just made the earthly container so to speak. It is up to me if this life will mean anything. It is the spiritual being I am concerned about in this conversation. 'This is a religion' thread,. Health and nutrition is a different topic.
You want to know, why God did not intercede for you in your child's early physical development? He does not interfere for the most part, it rains on the just and unjust the same. Yes, he can make a difference in someone's health, through prayer. The soul of the child is what I have been discussing with you. You have not said what the child expired from. Not that I need to know....but, I can say it is a tragedy that it happened. I don't know you personally but I am sure if you look... you will find something positive that this child gave you from its brief visit. Why didn't God just give you a perfectly formed child? I believe that our earthly bodies are a luck of the draw, and the what we do with them (despite them)...is what matters. There are some that have severe deformities.... and yet they are grateful, they are alive. How do you know....that perhaps through genetics, that had the child lived....it would have suffered longer then what it did?. Perhaps it was grace that it passed so quickly... I don't know what the answer is, but I have hope that you will find some meaning in it to be grateful for.
God knows that this life is temporary, and he has told us what is to come. Just as I sit, next to my child while they undergo surgery, or dentistry...I know the pain is unbearable, but I have faith in the doctor that though it may hurt, it is for the good....later. It can be a horrible place here, for some of us we believe the good to come later, however painful this moment may be. Physically or emotionally, and spiritually.

[HerNibs]

1. God is all powerful, and he laid down the rules...he cannot changed them less he be a hypocrite, and liar. He does care if your in pain, and through prayer we can make a difference (faith). When we pray...we don't say, I want it now! We say if it is your will...because we cannot see the whole picture..

I see contractions.

He laid down rules. All powerful would be above rules and exempt from consequences wouldn't it?

I don't pray. I acted. I researched, I contributed time and money to aid in the development of treatment. I lost my child 20 years ago. Medicine has progressed to the point where most children born today in this country will survive that were born with the same condition as my child. No prayer.

"If it your will...because we cannot see the whole picture.."
Doesn't this imply that my child was sacrificed to serve some other purpose?

You stated that god does not ask for sacrifice.

He is either in charge of all of it, started it and doesn't care or isn't in charge of everything. I don't see how it can be both ways.

Which is it?

Just for the record, I am not angry at science, god, genetics, myself or anything else about the death of my child. It was a horrible tradgedy. I do not find comfort in an afterlife (explained earlier) or in the fact that my child's death served some lofty, unknowable purpose. I found comfort in my actions and my family. No god.

[Suzan]

Originally Posted by Admiral

Suzan, have you ever read the book of Job? It's fascinating- every religion basically needs some sort of excuse for why good people suffer and wicked people suffer. The book of Job contains the last time God speaks in the Bible, as well as the only appearance of Satan.

My personal favorite Bible verse comes from it: Job 4:20- "If I sin, what do I do to you, you watcher of humanity?" It's a question God never answers to my satisfaction.

Not to Jobs satisfaction either (a few times)...lol

Job 7:20 Job does not know of the origin of the attack on him, he is unaware.. God does not answer it rightly so...because God believes Job will have faith beyond the scope of being tested. He (Job) is to wonder..."what the heck did I do?" If Job were to "know"... the origin of the attack, he would stay strong just to "win", he can't know or it would sway the outcome of the test (so to speak).

And he did....he was angry, confused...bitter, but never turned his back on God-and walked away. Mostly because.... God didn't explain further..was the cause for the frustration Job felt.
There was no hope offered even as to when the end of the attack would be. Most of us (and Job)... want to know why???, sometimes there is no answer...no explanation. Or it is kept from us for good reason.
Do we.... 1. behave because of the reward to follow?, or 2. because it is asked of us and we want to avoid the punishment?. Or 3. is their truly a reward in being a good person (faithful to God)?

I believe it starts out... #1 and progresses to #2 and we become #3



We don't know a lot about the Book of Job. We don't know how old it is. Job and his friends are not Israelites, their names are not Hebrew names so we don't know where the story comes from, or how old it might be. Whether it's myth, or mythico-historical.

Even in the story, we don't know why Job was tormented except as part of a wager between God and The Satan. The whole story of Job is meant to contradict the common belief at the time that good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people. It was a Biblical notion that we encounter in what is called 'wisdom literature'--the kind of thing found in places like Proverbs and other books of the Bible. Job is a counter-argument to that belief that says, no, it doesn't always work that way and we won't always know why. God answers Job out of the whirlwind but leaves us with as many questions.

We don't ultimately know why Job suffers. We don't know why anyone suffers. I don't know that it's our place to know ultimately. I think our place is to find out how to respond to that suffering. We can't know why Job suffered, why the hundreds of thousands in Southeast Asia suffer. All we can know is what we're going to do about it. We're going to show what love compassion and concern is.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Robin

Well here we go again with the semantic quibbling.

Atheist = "Someone who does not believe there is a God"

That is what I mean when I use the term.

Minimum definition for God = "purposeful creator of the universe, omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent"

That is what I mean when I use the term. Whether there might be a god of some other description is a meaningless proposition.

I know a dyslexic Labrador breeder who keeps several gods tied up in his back yard, so I could hardly be a strong atheist by your definition.

Even using your definitions of "atheist" and "God," your generalization refers only to a specific subset of the group that you define as "atheist," specifically the weak (agnostic) atheist, and not all atheists. Given that the only evidence that something does not exist would be definitive proof that it cannot exist, there is no evidence that the God you describe does not exist. Those atheists with a positive belief that there is no God (using your definition) are in the same boat as the theists.

-Bri

[Bri]

Originally Posted by joller

but it influences your will strongly.
As far as I remember, Jesus'es supposed miracles gave him quite a number of followers. These people might not choose to believe god's words if it wasn't for those miracles.

Again, even if God performed miracles that removed free will completely from some people, free will might still exist (in other people).

-Bri

[Freethinker]

Originally Posted by Suzan

1. God is all powerful, and he laid down the rules...he cannot changed them less he be a hypocrite, and liar.

If the sky-fairy is all powerful, then he CAN change the rules without being a hypocrite and a liar, otherwise he wouldn't be all-powerful. That doesn't change the fact that the god of the bible IS a hypocrite and liar (as well as an evil, baby-killing bastard).

[Gr8wight]

Originally Posted by Suzan

Not to Jobs satisfaction either (a few times)...lol

Job 7:20 Job does not know of the origin of the attack on him, he is unaware.. God does not answer it rightly so...because God believes Job will have faith beyond the scope of being tested. He (Job) is to wonder..."what the heck did I do?" If Job were to "know"... the origin of the attack, he would stay strong just to "win", he can't know or it would sway the outcome of the test (so to speak).

And he did....he was angry, confused...bitter, but never turned his back on God-and walked away. Mostly because.... God didn't explain further..was the cause for the frustration Job felt.
There was no hope offered even as to when the end of the attack would be. Most of us (and Job)... want to know why???, sometimes there is no answer...no explanation. Or it is kept from us for good reason.
Do we.... 1. behave because of the reward to follow?, or 2. because it is asked of us and we want to avoid the punishment?. Or 3. is their truly a reward in being a good person (faithful to God)?

I believe it starts out... #1 and progresses to #2 and we become #3



We don't know a lot about the Book of Job. We don't know how old it is. Job and his friends are not Israelites, their names are not Hebrew names so we don't know where the story comes from, or how old it might be. Whether it's myth, or mythico-historical.

Even in the story, we don't know why Job was tormented except as part of a wager between God and The Satan. The whole story of Job is meant to contradict the common belief at the time that good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people. It was a Biblical notion that we encounter in what is called 'wisdom literature'--the kind of thing found in places like Proverbs and other books of the Bible. Job is a counter-argument to that belief that says, no, it doesn't always work that way and we won't always know why. God answers Job out of the whirlwind but leaves us with as many questions.

We don't ultimately know why Job suffers. We don't know why anyone suffers. I don't know that it's our place to know ultimately. I think our place is to find out how to respond to that suffering. We can't know why Job suffered, why the hundreds of thousands in Southeast Asia suffer. All we can know is what we're going to do about it. We're going to show what love compassion and concern is.

Actually, I have an interpretation of the Book of Job that is slightly different. Job was being punished for sin. He was unaware of his sin. Even his several friends and accquaintances kept missing the point.

Start by understanding that the book of Job is old, as has been stated, and originally comes from a culture other than judaism. As such, the narrative has been toyed with and adjusted by writers from several different cultures before it was finally fixed in its present form. Much of it has been altered from its original form, and some parts of it that maybe should have been excised to make it clearer have not been. The beginning, with the 'bet' between God and Satan is completely beside the point, and only confuses the issue. It probably belongs to some earlier version of the narrative, or was tacked on at some point by someone who didn't understand the point of the book.

I took me several readings to see it. It wasn't until I started looking at it as a work of fiction that it became evident to me. Job's friends, Bildad, Zophar, and Eliphaz are nothing more than literary devices designed to allow Job to repeatedly refute their arguments. Every time they tell Job what they think he did wrong, he protests his innocence and righteousness. He insists that he has done nothing wrong, and that God's punishment of him is unjust.

It isn't until God speaks to him directly, and says what amounts to, "who the hell are you to question me?" that Job gets it. His sin was pride. Pride in his own righteousness. He knows he has sinned, and his final words in the book are, "I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:6)

So, contrary to popular argument, the Book of Job does actually have a traditional Judeo-Christian moral message. One that should probably be taken to heart by a significant proportion of the religious right in the United States right now.

[Admiral]

Originally Posted by Gr8wight

Actually, I have an interpretation of the Book of Job that is slightly different. Job was being punished for sin. He was unaware of his sin. Even his several friends and accquaintances kept missing the point.

Start by understanding that the book of Job is old, as has been stated, and originally comes from a culture other than judaism. As such, the narrative has been toyed with and adjusted by writers from several different cultures before it was finally fixed in its present form. Much of it has been altered from its original form, and some parts of it that maybe should have been excised to make it clearer have not been. The beginning, with the 'bet' between God and Satan is completely beside the point, and only confuses the issue. It probably belongs to some earlier version of the narrative, or was tacked on at some point by someone who didn't understand the point of the book.

I took me several readings to see it. It wasn't until I started looking at it as a work of fiction that it became evident to me. Job's friends, Bildad, Zophar, and Eliphaz are nothing more than literary devices designed to allow Job to repeatedly refute their arguments. Every time they tell Job what they think he did wrong, he protests his innocence and righteousness. He insists that he has done nothing wrong, and that God's punishment of him is unjust.

It isn't until God speaks to him directly, and says what amounts to, "who the hell are you to question me?" that Job gets it. His sin was pride. Pride in his own righteousness. He knows he has sinned, and his final words in the book are, "I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:6)

So, contrary to popular argument, the Book of Job does actually have a traditional Judeo-Christian moral message. One that should probably be taken to heart by a significant proportion of the religious right in the United States right now.

Thanks. Wow, that's a really great way to view it.

Of course the greatest sin in Judeo-Christian belief is pride. Just look at Dante's Purgatorio- on his list of the seven deadly sins, pride is first. Good stuff.

There is only one flaw I see in this interpretation, and it's one of the most confusing sections of an already confusing book- Job 42:7-9 (from the New Revised Standard Version)-

Quote:

After the Lord had spoken these words to Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Termanite: "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering, and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has done. So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did what the Lord had told them; and the Lord accepted Job's prayer.

According to your interpretation, Job's friends were right, and Job was wrong. So why does God disagree with you?

One possibility- there's a bizarre disconnect between 42:1-6 (which supports your interpretation) and 42:7-9 (which rejects it). The disconnect is this- Job speaks to the Lord in 42:1-6, but the first words of 42:7 are "After the Lord had spoken these words to Job," showing that it was probably written without the knowledge of verses 1-6.

Therefore, verses 7-9 were probably Frankensteined on, like the early stuff between God and Satan and chapters 32-37 (which concern Elihu). You're right- it's a very, very disjoint story- as evidenced by the fact the story repeatedly states "Job again took up his discourse" even when Job was the last one talking.

Fascinating, isn't it?

[Robin]

Originally Posted by Bri

Even using your definitions of "atheist" and "God," your generalization refers only to a specific subset of the group that you define as "atheist," specifically the weak (agnostic) atheist, and not all atheists.

Which shows that you did not read my definition of atheist. Someone who does not believe that there is a God. (and I might add "or gods").

So how could somebody who believes that there is no God or gods be included in this definition? They can't.

Adding modifiers like "weak" or "agnostic" is superfluous and do not add any meaning to it. My definition is unambiguous.

Quote:

Given that the only evidence that something does not exist would be definitive proof that it cannot exist, there is no evidence that the God you describe does not exist. Those atheists with a positive belief that there is no God (using your definition) are in the same boat as the theists.

Again, you didn't read my definition. Someone who believes there is no God is not the same as someone who does not believe that there is a God. So how could that be withing my definition.

Again, I stated very clearly what I mean by the term. I know you are obsessed with these brain-dead finicky gradations of belief structures, but I am not. I have stated a clear and unambiguous meaning.

If I am asked to state a positive belief then I will require at the very least an adequate definition. I have already identified a number of gods that can be proved to exist so if there are strong atheists as you claim, then I can refute them.

[Admiral]

Originally Posted by Robin

I have already identified a number of gods that can be proved to exist so if there are strong atheists as you claim, then I can refute them.

Really? OK, prove them...

[Suzan]

Originally Posted by Freethinker

If the sky-fairy is all powerful, then he CAN change the rules without being a hypocrite and a liar, otherwise he wouldn't be all-powerful. That doesn't change the fact that the god of the bible IS a hypocrite and liar (as well as an evil, baby-killing bastard).

In all due respect, do you have to be vulgar when expressing your opinion?
If all the people on here that find offense in the "manner" that you speak to them....were to ignore you (make you non-existent), and you are alone, then who will hear your opinion?


People seem not to see
that their opinion of the world
is also a confession of character.

[HerNibs]

Originally Posted by Suzan

In all due respect, do you have to be vulgar when expressing your opinion?
If all the people on here that find offense in the "manner" that you speak to them....were to ignore you (make you non-existent), and you are alone, then who will hear your opinion?


People seem not to see
that their opinion of the world
is also a confession of character.

Wow.

Just wow.

Instead of answering the questions you have decided to attack the words in the post?

Ok *shakes head* moving on....

How do you figure that ignoring something makes it not exist?

Wait, before that, please review my past post and address the questions I asked.

thanks

HN

[Suzan]

Originally Posted by HerNibs

Wow.

Just wow.

Instead of answering the questions you have decided to attack the words in the post?

Ok *shakes head* moving on....

How do you figure that ignoring something makes it not exist?

Wait, before that, please review my past post and address the questions I asked.

thanks


HN

I already answered it in previous post(s), but I did not appreciate being cussed at. If a person wants to ask me a question that is fine, but I will "ignore" make invisible...those post's that have vile language aimed at me. I can make him not exist for me.....by hitting the ignore button It was a polite warning...not a threat. and btw, he did not ask a question....he made a vulgar statement.

[HerNibs]

I did not see the answer. Would you point out where you answered -

"If it your will...because we cannot see the whole picture.." Your statement.

Doesn't this imply that my child was sacrificed to serve some other purpose?

You stated that god does not ask for sacrifice.

AND

He is either in charge of all of it, started it and doesn't care or isn't in charge of everything. I don't see how it can be both ways.

(All powerful and exempt from rules or not.)

Which is it?

Thanks

HN

[Suzan]

Originally Posted by HerNibs

He laid down rules. All powerful would be above rules and exempt from consequences wouldn't it?

I am not God,....is a guess on my part: If God were to create a creature....that continually made mahem (guilty or even through no fault of its own) that it would bring him sadness... that is a consequence.
so no... he would not be absent from consequences...do you mean he would be judged by something other than himself.....no. I am to guess then...if he were to lie, those that follow him would lose faith in him. So, he doesn't.




"If it your will...because we cannot see the whole picture.."
Doesn't this imply that my child was sacrificed to serve some other purpose?

There is a difference between a reason, and a sacrifice. No, I don't believe your child was sacrificed. I believe though... to make reason from it, as it has happened: you have gone on to help others through dedication and research, which you might not have done less you experienced it for yourself. And that is "your" reason. The children that are saved through yours (and others dedication) do "you" feel that they (the past children) have been sacrificed for the children now who are saved because of it (them)?

You stated that god does not ask for sacrifice.

He did ask for sacrifices in the old test. In the New test. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for "sins". This way the old testement still stands firm, and the new testement could take place without...having to make sacrifices.

He is either in charge of all of it, started it and doesn't care or isn't in charge of everything. I don't see how it can be both ways.

Which is it?

This I answered to the best of my abilities earlier, but I will attempt to address it again. He did start it all, He does care, but you and I are in charge of the outcome of our own soul's destiny. If he were to... save everyone from no sickness...and there was no sin, no death... then we wouldn't be here, we would be in Heaven all ready. He does not want the evil's of this world to be in eternity with him forever...where strife and pain and hurt exist's. He is giving the chance for those to be weeded out by being the cause of their own devices (free-will). You and I chose our own ending...or beginning.

Just for the record, I am not angry at science, god, genetics, myself or anything else about the death of my child. It was a horrible tradgedy. I do not find comfort in an afterlife (explained earlier) or in the fact that my child's death served some lofty, unknowable purpose. I found comfort in my actions and my family. No god.

I have found your questions...and reasons to be justified, and have a respect for you in the way you speak to me, thank you for that

[HerNibs]

There is a difference between a reason, and a sacrifice. No, I don't believe your child was sacrificed. I believe though... to make reason from it, as it has happened: you have gone on to help others through dedication and research, which you might not have done less you experienced it for yourself. And that is "your" reason. The children that are saved through yours (and others dedication) do "you " feel that they have been sacrificed for the children now who are saved because of it?


There is a difference between these two examples. The doctors and nurses did not have the power to prevent and fix this situation. According to you, god does and did and he chose not to help. I am caring and will do everything in my power to help. God doesn't.

So yes, I call this a sacrifice.

He did start it all, He does care, but you and I are in charge of the outcome of our own soul's destiny. If he were to... save everyone from no sickness...and there was no sin, no death... then we wouldn't be here, we would be in Heaven all ready. He does not want the evil's of this world to be in eternity with him forever...where strife and pain and hurt exist's. He is giving the chance for those to be weeded out by being the cause of their own devices (free-will). You and I chose our own ending...or beginning.

Again, if he is all powerful, then the people he doesn't want in the afterlife wouldn't have to be there. If god is giving the people the option to hurt, murder, lie, and cheat, knowing that these people will do this, doesn't he basically remove the freewill of the victims of these bad people?

God allowed the free will of my child to not exist. I am not addressing the adults.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Robin

Which shows that you did not read my definition of atheist. Someone who does not believe that there is a God. (and I might add "or gods").

So how could somebody who believes that there is no God or gods be included in this definition? They can't.

Someone who believes that there is no God/gods (a strong atheist) by definition does not believe that there is a God/gods (is an atheist). So might someone who doesn't know for certain whether there is a God/gods (a weak atheist). Your definition covers a larger set of beliefs than you intended, and more importantly renders the logic you used in the post to which I was responding meaningless. The logic you provided would only apply to one subset of atheists (namely weak atheists). When applied to strong atheism, the extension of your logic produces a result which I don't think you intended. Which is why I suggested that you clarify that your logic doesn't apply to all atheists as you (apparently inadvertently) suggested, but only to weak atheists.

Quote:

Again, you didn't read my definition. Someone who believes there is no God is not the same as someone who does not believe that there is a God. So how could that be withing my definition.

I read it carefully. Someone who believes that there is no God (a strong atheist) is a subset of those who do not believe that there is a God (an atheist).

-Bri

[Suzan]

Originally Posted by HerNibs

There is a difference between a reason, and a sacrifice. No, I don't believe your child was sacrificed. I believe though... to make reason from it, as it has happened: you have gone on to help others through dedication and research, which you might not have done less you experienced it for yourself. And that is "your" reason. The children that are saved through yours (and others dedication) do "you " feel that they have been sacrificed for the children now who are saved because of it?


There is a difference between these two examples. The doctors and nurses did not have the power to prevent and fix this situation. According to you, god does and did and he chose not to help. I am caring and will do everything in my power to help. God doesn't.

So yes, I call this a sacrifice.

He did start it all, He does care, but you and I are in charge of the outcome of our own soul's destiny. If he were to... save everyone from no sickness...and there was no sin, no death... then we wouldn't be here, we would be in Heaven all ready. He does not want the evil's of this world to be in eternity with him forever...where strife and pain and hurt exist's. He is giving the chance for those to be weeded out by being the cause of their own devices (free-will). You and I chose our own ending...or beginning.

Again, if he is all powerful, then the people he doesn't want in the afterlife wouldn't have to be there. If god is giving the people the option to hurt, murder, lie, and cheat, knowing that these people will do this, doesn't he basically remove the freewill of the victims of these bad people?

God allowed the free will of my child to not exist. I am not addressing the adults.

There is a difference between these two examples. The doctors and nurses did not have the power to prevent and fix this situation. According to you, god does and did and he chose not to help. I am caring and will do everything in my power to help. God doesn't.

The doctors and nurses did not know how to treat it, prevent it...until it happened.
You are a being. You do not know how you will react....until you experience it. It is something you must learn. From your own free will. Your here after...is based on your experience..he cannot just make you perfect or anyone else...until they have experienced it (this life) for themselves, so It's in their memory....part of their growth... part of their make-up.

Again, if he is all powerful, then the people he doesn't want in the afterlife wouldn't have to be there. If god is giving the people the option to hurt, murder, lie, and cheat, knowing that these people will do this, doesn't he basically remove the freewill of the victims of these bad people?

No... he does not want a crowd of robots...he wants them to be accountable. To have experience so they know not to repeat it.

the actions of the bad people....do try the faith of the good ones don't they?

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

Suzan,

You've made a number of definite statements about what God wants/thinks etc.

I'm curious - how do you know these things with certainty?

Is it from Bible study, from your preacher, your parents or somewhere else?

BTW - this is a genuine inquiry!

YBW

[Suzan]

Originally Posted by YouBelieveWHAT?

Suzan,

You've made a number of definite statements about what God wants/thinks etc.

I'm curious - how do you know these things with certainty?

Is it from Bible study, from your preacher, your parents or somewhere else?

BTW - this is a genuine inquiry!

YBW

Which statements? There is a lot I don't know!! I believe all of us are a make up of various sources.

[HerNibs]

Originally Posted by Suzan

The doctors and nurses did not know how to treat it, prevent it...until it happened.
You are a being. You do not know how you will react....until you experience it. It is something you must learn. From your own free will. Your here after...is based on your experience..he cannot just make you perfect or anyone else...until they have experienced it (this life) for themselves, so It's in their memory....part of their growth... part of their make-up.

So, are you stating that my child WAS a sacrifice? That his death was necessary to prevent other deaths?

What is your definition of a sacrifice?

What did my child learn that helped him?

About bad people, no they do not try my faith. Bad people are just that. Bad people. No one is responsible for them other than themselves. I am not talking about some one who is not mentally capable of making decisions. I mean exactly that. Bad people. I do not look to any invisible being or deity for an explanation as to why.

[Suzan]

Originally Posted by HerNibs

So, are you stating that my child WAS a sacrifice? That his death was necessary to prevent other deaths?

What is your definition of a sacrifice? There are a few:


In Godly terms... for the cause of a belief, for forgiveness or reward (in some faiths). Of an article or animal or self.

We sacrifice as parents, for our children. In many ways, done for the benefit of the child.

"It is of my personal opinion"....and I am but a person like you, I am not God. As someone else pointed out, by what authority do I speak? And what doctrine and teachings...have I learned from?. The views I have given you are my own, from various places during life. For the most part....I speak from my heart...I am just a Mom.
In this context that your child was sacrificed by God to himself: In the religious belief, a Person would sacrifice those things stated earlier. In this case..... God were to take your child's life to give atonement to himself? That is an absurd thought. Christ fits this role.
The child was not purposefully destroyed for something it had done... as it had not lived to do anything....so that can't be it.
It wasn't killed to teach you a lesson as your responsible for your 'own' sin.
It seems you are trying to find a reason for it's death. I don't think there is one, I think that it failed to thrive due to a physical attribute, genetics.
I feel that it falls under grace...

What did my child learn that helped him? We don't know, as we are not your child. And we will not know less we go there ourselves and find out.

About bad people, no they do not try my faith. Bad people are just that. Bad people. No one is responsible for them other than themselves. I am not talking about some one who is not mentally capable of making decisions. I mean exactly that. Bad people. I do not look to any invisible being or deity for an explanation as to why.

I do not look for an explanation either...but, I am careful how I judge someone else.

Your patience is not tried by others? Your not "ever" annoyed by someone who does not speak your language, yet they are discussing your accounts?, no one has ever cut you off....verbally, or in a car? You are totally passive, and nothing bothers you? It does not bother you that...pedophiles steal and murder children? What stops you from killing them? If a doctor....accidentally killed your loved one...you would not sue? you would turn the other cheek? do you support war? if so....why? if not....why? (don't answer that-it's meant as an example).
Everyone is subject to bad people. Everyone is flogged day to day with evil doers... and/or mean spirited people. Self centered righteous indignant rude people....all of us experience trials, tribulations. It is what you do with them.... No not everyone is evil, some don't know any better....some people are just raised wrong.
We do look to God to know why some do the things they do....are they just bad...or sick, or evil? If you do not believe in God, then I am assuming (correct me if I am wrong) that there is only Good...and Bad. If a person has no physical abnormalities...yet, they kidnap and murder.....torture, then this person is merely bad...? no..... I would say if not sick (mentally deformed) then they are evil. I deal with Missing Persons as a career.....it matters to me....who and what they are, as to determine some facts, I must know if the perp. is nuts or not, or just plain evil. Yes, it matters to me who falls under grace and needs to go to a psychiatric hospital...and or if that person needs to be put to death...or rot in jail. And yes, my patience is tried.... by those that commit some acts/crimes.

[HerNibs]

Suzan,

You state one thing then adress another.

I never stated that people do not try my patience.
Here you are addressing something that was not in the original question or statement.

What I said was that bad people do not try my faith. Different question, different meaning. Maybe I was mistaken, but I took "faith" to mean my faith in a deity based on our conversation. With this meaning, nope, bad people do not try my faith.

Do people p!ss me off? Hoo boy, you betcha.

As to sacrifice - again, two different discussions. Humans making sacrifices for each other is vastly difference than an all powerful deity sacrificing a child due to indifference or to teach some cosmic lesson. Not remotely in the same ballpark.

Doesn't god have control over genetics, sickness, etc?

You are assuming incorrectly about me limiting people to only good and only bad. I stated that - "I am not talking about some one who is not mentally capable of making decisions."

I know why my child died. Medical science had not progressed enough to save him. End of story. Tragic. Sorry if this sounds blunt, but that is all there was and is to it.

[Suzan]

Originally Posted by HerNibs

Suzan,

You state one thing then adress another.

I never stated that people do not try my patience.
Here you are addressing something that was not in the original question or statement.

What I said was that bad people do not try my faith. Different question, different meaning. Maybe I was mistaken, but I took "faith" to mean my faith in a deity based on our conversation. With this meaning, nope, bad people do not try my faith.

Do people p!ss me off? Hoo boy, you betcha.

As to sacrifice - again, two different discussions. Humans making sacrifices for each other is vastly difference than . Not remotely in the same ballpark.

Doesn't god have control over genetics, sickness, etc?

You are assuming incorrectly about me limiting people to only good and only bad. I stated that - "I am not talking about some one who is not mentally capable of making decisions."

I know why my child died. Medical science had not progressed enough to save him. End of story. Tragic. Sorry if this sounds blunt, but that is all there was and is to it.

You state one thing then adress another.
I never stated that people do not try my patience,

That is because we believe differently...lol My faith and yours, are in different places....and that is okay.

Doesn't god have control over genetics, sickness, etc? Yes, through prayer and faith.

an all powerful deity sacrificing a child due to indifference or to teach some cosmic lesson= Nope, he would have no reason to sacrifice your child for himself. Christ filled that role.

[Freethinker]

Originally Posted by Suzan

In all due respect, do you have to be vulgar when expressing your opinion?
If all the people on here that find offense in the "manner" that you speak to them....were to ignore you (make you non-existent), and you are alone, then who will hear your opinion?


People seem not to see
that their opinion of the world
is also a confession of character.

I don't believe the word bastard is all that vulgar, and I chose it to express my contempt for him without resorting to words that more closely accept my feelings. It certainly has a definition in any dictionary, although its usage in common English is somewhat synonymous with "nasty jerk", so read my post as that. Regardless, he's still an evil baby-killer, as depicted in the bible, and I notice you made no response to the content.

[Suzan]

Originally Posted by Freethinker

I don't believe the word bastard is all that vulgar, and I chose it to express my contempt for him without resorting to words that more closely accept my feelings. It certainly has a definition in any dictionary, although its usage in common English is somewhat synonymous with "nasty jerk", so read my post as that. Regardless, he's still an evil baby-killer, as depicted in the bible, and I notice you made no response to the content.

Yes, I responded in my last few post's about that subject.

[Freethinker]

Originally Posted by Suzan

Yes, I responded in my last few post's about that subject.

No you didn't.

[Suzan]

Originally Posted by Freethinker

No you didn't.

post 190

[Robin]

Originally Posted by Admiral

Really? OK, prove them...

Prove the existence of God or gods? Easy, since Bri has left the definition open.

As I have stated earlier I have a friend who is a dyslexic labrador breeder and keeps a number of gods tied up in his back yard.

There is an entrepreneur in Queensland who is nicknamed "God" (after his flight call sign).

I have just now arbitrarily named my stapler "God" and my mousepad "god".

Any fan of "Yes Minister" will be aware of the many gods in the British Civil Service.

Clearly I could go on like this forever, but I think you might get the idea.

If I have absolute freedom to define the words "God" and "god" in any way I choose then of course I can find instances of God and god that exist.

So the position that "God does not exist" or "God exists" could not possibly mean anything until you have an adequate definition for God.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by Bri

Someone who believes that there is no God/gods (a strong atheist) by definition does not believe that there is a God/gods (is an atheist). So might someone who doesn't know for certain whether there is a God/gods (a weak atheist). Your definition covers a larger set of beliefs than you intended, and more importantly renders the logic you used in the post to which I was responding meaningless. The logic you provided would only apply to one subset of atheists (namely weak atheists). When applied to strong atheism, the extension of your logic produces a result which I don't think you intended. Which is why I suggested that you clarify that your logic doesn't apply to all atheists as you (apparently inadvertently) suggested, but only to weak atheists.



I read it carefully. Someone who believes that there is no God (a strong atheist) is a subset of those who do not believe that there is a God (an atheist).

-Bri

OK, here is a statement. "I believe that Shakespeare is a great poet". I might justify this by referring to the intrinsic quality of his poetry or to the regard in which he is held.

Someone else says "I believe that Shakespeare is a great poet from Saturn".

Naturally people that think that Shakespeare is a great poet from Saturn are a subset of people who think that Shakespeare is a great poet.

So my definition refers to a larger set of beliefs than I had intended.

So now my arguments no longer justify the assertion that that Shakespeare is a great poet because they do not prove also that he is from Saturn.

Right?

No, my definition says what it says. It does not refer to any other belief system that might also include disbelief in God.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Morris Cod

Can anybody of a religious bent explain to me how any deity could allow this sort of thing to happen?...

Quote:

As he passed by he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "Neither he nor his parents sinned; this man was born blind so that the works of God might be made visible through him. We have to do the works of the one who sent me while it is day. Night is coming when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world." When he had said this, he spat on the ground and made clay with the saliva, and smeared the clay on his eyes, and said to him, "Go wash in the Pool of Siloam" (which means Sent). So he went and washed, and came back able to see.......

John 9:1-7

Footnotes to John, Chapter 9 in the New American Bible:

Quote:

Footnotes
1 [9:1-10:21] Sabbath healing of the man born blind. This sixth sign is introduced to illustrate the saying, "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12; 9:5). The narrative of conflict about Jesus contrasts Jesus (light) with the Jews (blindness, John 9:39-41). The theme of water is reintroduced in the reference to the pool of Siloam. Ironically, Jesus is being judged by the Jews, yet the Jews are judged by the Light of the world; cf John 3:19-21.
2 [2] See the note on John 5:14, and Exodus 20:5, that parents' sins were visited upon their children. Jesus denies such a cause and emphasizes the purpose: the infirmity was providential.
3 [7] Go wash: perhaps a test of faith; cf 2 Kings 5:10-14. The water tunnel Siloam (= Sent) is used as a symbol of Jesus, sent by his Father.4 [14] In using spittle, kneading clay, and healing, Jesus had broken the sabbath rules laid down by Jewish tradition.

[slingblade]

Originally Posted by Suzan

Which statements? There is a lot I don't know!! I believe all of us are a make up of various sources.

...........Kathy?