Prince Charles to tell doctors of the world to use sCAM

Blue Wode · 14th May 2006, 01:27 AM

Apparently he’s not going to be mentioning homeopathy, but he will be advocating other sCAM therapies:

Quote:

The Prince of Wales will urge doctors to start using unconventional techniques such as chiropractic, acupuncture and herbal medicines to treat serious illnesses, in a speech to the World Health Organisation next week.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/hea...icle447784.ece

The Don · 14th May 2006, 02:11 AM

Another great advert for republicasnism

andyandy · 14th May 2006, 02:20 AM

No...i think it's great that Charles is getting involved......

it gives alternative therapy even less credibility

Rolfe · 14th May 2006, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Another great advert for republicasnism

I don't suppose there's any practical point in nominating that for the Language Award, but it's the killer response.

Rolfe.

Yuri Nalyssus · 14th May 2006, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Blue Wode

Apparently he’s not going to be mentioning homeopathy

Wonder why not, worried about giggling at the back perhaps.

The WHO is notoriously creduloid about scam see - http://www.health24.com/natural/Ther...17-670-684.asp "Homeopathy has proven consistently effective in treating conditions for which conventional medicine has little to offer. The World Health Organisation has recognized the value of homoeopathy as one of the systems of traditional medicine that should be integrated world-wide with conventional medicine in order to provide adequate global health care"

Yuri

Zep · 14th May 2006, 06:58 AM

I suppose you can't blame Charlie. He got this particular Woo's Disease from his mum, who got it from her mum, who got it from the rest of the Godforsaken family in the 19th century. I think it was Albert, wasn't it, who started the trend by bringing homeopathy with him from Germany? A pity really - in many other respects, he was a very modern thinker for his time.

Deetee · 14th May 2006, 07:02 AM

Quote:

The Prince of Wales will urge doctors to start using unconventional techniques such as chiropractic, acupuncture and herbal medicines to treat serious illnesses, in a speech to the World Health Organisation next week.

He doesn't get it, does he. "Serious illnesses"??
SCAM only appears to work for chronic illnesses that are inconsequential or relatively minor, or those that are likely to show spontaneous remission.

(insert Charles' speech bubble here)

Cynric · 14th May 2006, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus

The WHO is notoriously creduloid about scam see - http://www.health24.com/natural/Ther...17-670-684.asp "Homeopathy has proven consistently effective in treating conditions for which conventional medicine has little to offer. The World Health Organisation has recognized the value of homoeopathy as one of the systems of traditional medicine that should be integrated world-wide with conventional medicine in order to provide adequate global health care"

This is the WHO that is mandated to deal with pandemics and newly emerging diseases?
Well, no fear about bird flu then. Magic water all round.

To be fair, though, that article was written by a homoeopath, not renowned for good relations with the truth.

Blue Wode · 14th May 2006, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus

The WHO is notoriously creduloid about scam

It seems to be. Here’s the WHO’s Guidelines on Basic Training and Safety in Chiropractic:

http://www.chiroeco.com/50/bonus/WHOguidelines.pdf

Yet another official resource that’s content to offer up vague descriptions of chiropractic ‘subluxations’ instead of saying that they remain scientifically unproven. No doubt the disproportionately large number of sCAM proponents who participated in the development of the guidelines - including the Chief Executive of HRH’s Foundation for Integrated Health – had something to do with it.

Yuri Nalyssus · 14th May 2006, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Cynric

To be fair, though, that article was written by a homoeopath, not renowned for good relations with the truth.

There is a WHO guidelines paper on the integration of homoeopathy, I've got the link somewhere, just not here unfortunately. The link I posted serves to show just how readily homoeopaths will clutch at any proffered straw no matter how cautious or 'even handed' it might be and spin it to appear like support. People read "the WHO supports homoeopathy" but how many bother to go to the source reference (especially as it's not usually given in such web-sites).

Yuri

T'ai Chi · 14th May 2006, 09:41 AM

If he is saying 'look we need to put more emphasis on preventive medicine, lifestyle choices, diet, and exercise' then that is a good thing.

If he's saying (which I doubt) 'we need to replace heart surgery with acupuncture', than that is a bad thing.

CFLarsen · 14th May 2006, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

If he is saying 'look we need to put more emphasis on preventive medicine, lifestyle choices, diet, and exercise' then that is a good thing.

If he's saying (which I doubt) 'we need to replace heart surgery with acupuncture', than that is a bad thing.

What part of "chiropractic, acupuncture and herbal medicines" don't you understand?

Yuri Nalyssus · 14th May 2006, 09:59 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4312780.stm
"Complementary therapies should be given a greater role in the NHS, a report commissioned by the Prince of Wales has said"
I'm sure he wouldn't want to treat heart failure solely with homoeopathy, that sort of thing might be a bit of a give away (nothing like dead bodies to spoil a good thing) but his interest certainly extends further than just making sure you eat lots of fruit.

Yuri

ps ...(as a pure ad hominem self indulgence) he also talks to plants.

Hindmost · 14th May 2006, 10:23 AM

maybe this is why his mom won't let him be king.

glenn

Thing · 14th May 2006, 01:02 PM

So that makes three Fellows of the Royal Society with pro-homoeopathy views that I know of. Makes me feel a lot better about the fact that I'll never be one. Well, a little anyway

Zep · 14th May 2006, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by glennmr78

maybe this is why his mom won't let him be king.

glenn

Yep - the last mad one lost them a whole continent, and there's not much left of the British Empire left to lose these days.

tkingdoll · 14th May 2006, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Zep

A pity really - in many other respects, he was a very modern thinker for his time.

Well, homeopathy was modern thinking for his time.

It's just not modern thinking for our time, along with public hangings, corsets and cleaning your teeth with coal dust.

Zep · 14th May 2006, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

Well, homeopathy was modern thinking for his time.

It's just not modern thinking for our time, along with public hangings, corsets and cleaning your teeth with coal dust.

Actually, homeopathy was well debunked even in Victoria's time, and the placebo effect well understood. The UK led the world in a number of medical advances in that time - anaesthetics, antiseptics, modern surgery, etc.

Mojo · 14th May 2006, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

If he is saying 'look we need to put more emphasis on preventive medicine, lifestyle choices, diet, and exercise' then that is a good thing.

If he's saying (which I doubt) 'we need to replace heart surgery with acupuncture', than that is a bad thing.

Quote:

Prince Charles will claim that such major chronic illnesses as diabetes and heart disease, which affect tens of millions worldwide, could be successfully treated using complementary medicines and a "whole body" approach to healthcare.

Note the word "treated" in that sentence.

Euromutt · 15th May 2006, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by Cynric

This is the WHO that is mandated to deal with pandemics and newly emerging diseases?

Well, kind of. The WHO is a UN organization, which means it's under pressure not to openly rubbish sCAM from various member states which practice different varieties of sCAM. The WHO can't proclaim that TCM (including acupuncture) is bogus, for example, without the Chinese getting huffy, and it can't proclaim that homeopathy is bogus without the various European countries (among others) who have incorporated it into their socialized medicine systems getting huffy.

But despite the lip service, you won't find the WHO recommending any variety of sCAM in practice. The organization isn't actually creduloid, it just has to pretend it is.

Meffy · 15th May 2006, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by Euromutt

But despite the lip service, you won't find the WHO recommending any variety of sCAM in practice. The organization isn't actually creduloid, it just has to pretend it is.

That's... erm, quasi-comforting. In a way. Pardon me, I have to go cringe for a while over the whole issue.

aggle-rithm · 15th May 2006, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by glennmr78

maybe this is why his mom won't let him be king.

By not dying?

Meffy · 15th May 2006, 07:09 AM

She could always abdicate orf o' it.

headscratcher4 · 15th May 2006, 07:28 AM

I'd say he has a point...but, before I buy it, I'd like him also to say that strange women lying in ponds distributing semitaras is no basis for a system of government...

Hellbound · 15th May 2006, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

I'd say he has a point...but, before I buy it, I'd like him also to say that strange women lying in ponds distributing semitaras is no basis for a system of government...

Right. If I went around claiming to be emporer because some watery tart threw a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

Help! Help! I'm being repressed! Come see the violence inherit in the system!

[/MPQHG]

Blue Wode · 15th May 2006, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Euromutt

The WHO can't proclaim that TCM (including acupuncture) is bogus, for example, without the Chinese getting huffy, and it can't proclaim that homeopathy is bogus without the various European countries (among others) who have incorporated it into their socialized medicine systems getting huffy.

…which means that certain sections of the WHO’s guidelines on developing consumer information on proper use of traditional, complementary and alternative medicines are likely to be completely ignored…

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/...en/index1.html

And it doesn’t look like accurate consumer information will become much of a priority with the Prince of Wales’s Foundation for Integrated Health either:

http://www.fih.org.uk/

Cynric · 15th May 2006, 04:03 PM

Just caught our beloved future king on telly; tail end of an interview, so only a soundbite (I think it was related to the Prince's Trust, which does do very good work).

The interviewer asked whether it was appropriate for the future monarch to be involved in "various causes".

Future monarch replied [paraphrase]: "To be honest, I think it would be, sort of, criminally negligent of me to travel round the country seeing these things and not commenting on them."

Not melodramatic in the least.

Perhaps a little neglience of topics outside one's expertise would be appropriate?

luchog · 15th May 2006, 04:28 PM

I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing. Think of it as Darwinian natural selection in action. It's nature simply eliminating those whose brains are not sufficiently adapted for survival in the modern world.

Hindmost · 16th May 2006, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

By not dying?

I was thinking along the lines of abdicating....however, I wasn't really serious. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, but there should be level of critical thinking required before someone becomes a king...or president.

glenn

tkingdoll · 16th May 2006, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by Cynric

Just caught our beloved future king on telly; tail end of an interview, so only a soundbite (I think it was related to the Prince's Trust, which does do very good work).

The interviewer asked whether it was appropriate for the future monarch to be involved in "various causes".

Future monarch replied [paraphrase]: "To be honest, I think it would be, sort of, criminally negligent of me to travel round the country seeing these things and not commenting on them."

Not melodramatic in the least.

Perhaps a little neglience of topics outside one's expertise would be appropriate?

What a moron. What crime does he imagine that would fall under? First degree apathy?

Hellbound · 16th May 2006, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by glennmr78

I was thinking along the lines of abdicating....however, I wasn't really serious. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, but there should be level of critical thinking required before someone becomes a king...or president.

glenn

Or a parent, or a voter, or a teacher, or a doctor, or, well, being able to breath.

Alas, in a perfect world...

Darat · 16th May 2006, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

What a moron. What crime does he imagine that would fall under? First degree apathy?

Lack of Divine Right perhaps?

CFLarsen · 16th May 2006, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Lack of Divine Right perhaps?

..."by their Creator"...

headscratcher4 · 16th May 2006, 12:57 PM

Charles' problem isn't that it would be "criminal" for him not to comment on the things he sees, it that if he wasn't in his position because of his genes and birth order, no one would give two cents without his having achieved a position ON HIS OWN MERIT that commanded public respect and attention.

He basically is saying "I, by virtue of my genes, understandably need to comment on the weighty issues of the day and be listented to..." Even the increasingly insufferable Bono had to go out and create himself a superstar through his own hard work before he was deemed so important a person as to merit attention...

Mojo · 16th May 2006, 01:12 PM

Well, if he didn't keep on making a fool of himself people might begin to notice that he doesn't actually do anything...

Rolfe · 16th May 2006, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by luchog

I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing. Think of it as Darwinian natural selection in action. It's nature simply eliminating those whose brains are not sufficiently adapted for survival in the modern world.

Um, well, at least one of his kids looks as if he probably isn't, if you take my meaning, so it's a start.

Rolfe.

Asolepius · 17th May 2006, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by T'ai Chi

If he is saying 'look we need to put more emphasis on preventive medicine, lifestyle choices, diet, and exercise' then that is a good thing.

If he's saying (which I doubt) 'we need to replace heart surgery with acupuncture', than that is a bad thing.

Oh come now. He is recommending St John's Wort for post-natal depression, "instead of anti-depressants". What a plonker - SJW is an anti-depressant. It's indicated for mild to moderate depression, but NOT post-natal. Also it interacts dangerously with 50% of prescribed medicines. Depression is a serious, life-threatening disease and is not to be trifled with. What qualifies this aristocratic airhead and amateur politician to tell anyone, let alone the planet's top doctors, what works and what doesn't, other than an accident of birth?

I get persistently depressed by this lumping together of evidence-based risk factor control, and sCAM. They are totally different.

Physiotherapist · 17th May 2006, 08:53 AM

I have to say that if I was depressed, Prozac is the last thing I would take. Some years ago now, a friend of my wife's was depressed. She went to her doctor and was put on Prozac. She took it and went round feeling like a zombie and totally numb for most of the time. She could not feel anything at all. In the end, she stopped taking them with the consent of her doctor. He then referred her to a psychiatrist who then referred her onto a good psychotherapist and she recovered.

I do feel that at times, anti-depressants can just mask symptoms, rather than getting to real causes and it is unfortunate that they are sometimes overprescribed by doctors. (My opinion from what I have seen and witnessed).

Mojo · 17th May 2006, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Asolepius

Oh come now. He is recommending St John's Wort for post-natal depression, "instead of anti-depressants". What a plonker - SJW is an anti-depressant. It's indicated for mild to moderate depression, but NOT post-natal. Also it interacts dangerously with 50% of prescribed medicines.

In other words he's gone off on a "harmless natural remedies" v. "harmful drugs" kick. Either something works or it doesn't. Either something has side effects/interactions with other medication or it doesn't (and if it has any desired effect it's pretty much inevitable that it will also have undesired effects). Whether something is "natural" or not doesn't have any bearing on any of this.

But you'll still get clowns like Chazza pushing things purely on the basis that they're "natural".

Rolfe · 17th May 2006, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Physiotherapist

I have to say that if I was depressed, Prozac is the last thing I would take. Some years ago now, a friend of my wife's was depressed. She went to her doctor and was put on Prozac. She took it and went round feeling like a zombie and totally numb for most of the time. She could not feel anything at all. In the end, she stopped taking them with the consent of her doctor. He then referred her to a psychiatrist who then referred her onto a good psychotherapist and she recovered.

I do feel that at times, anti-depressants can just mask symptoms, rather than getting to real causes and it is unfortunate that they are sometimes overprescribed by doctors. (My opinion from what I have seen and witnessed).

I wouldn't totally disagree with you, but it does seem as if these SSRIs act differently on different people. Doctors tend to assume that everybody should react the way the "ideal" patient does, the way the package insert says it should happen. Which is probably the majority of patients to be fair. However, some individuals will experience a different and possibly adverse reaction. At this point a good doctor nees to realise this and stop insisting that a little more perseverance and it will all be OK.

The point is, don't make the opposite mistake, of thinking that because someone you know had an adverse reaction, that this is the majority experience, or would necessarily be your experience. There is a reason the drugs are quite popular.

Nevertheless I do agree with your experience, just dishing out the pills instead of trying to get to the bottom of the psychology and treating the cause is too common.

Rolfe.

14th May 2006, 01:27 AM	#1
Blue Wode Muse Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 990	Prince Charles to tell doctors of the world to use sCAM Apparently he’s not going to be mentioning homeopathy, but he will be advocating other sCAM therapies: Quote: The Prince of Wales will urge doctors to start using unconventional techniques such as chiropractic, acupuncture and herbal medicines to treat serious illnesses, in a speech to the World Health Organisation next week. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/hea...icle447784.ece
Blue Wode Muse Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 990

14th May 2006, 05:24 AM	#4
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 18,451	Originally Posted by The Don Another great advert for republicasnism I don't suppose there's any practical point in nominating that for the Language Award, but it's the killer response. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The thing about medicine is, that it all comes down to the numbers." - Dr. Stephen Franklin, Interludes and Examinations. "To give Rolfe his due, I think this is a good example to everyone of what can happen if we fail to get a proper diagnosis and begin treating on symptoms alone--a big mistake, as shown here." - "Snoopy" on H'pathy Forums, apparently abjuring the very fundamentals of homoeopathy after she'd just allowed a young mother with Addison's disease to die.

14th May 2006, 06:46 AM	#5
Yuri Nalyssus Muse Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Ancient Isle of Avignuon Posts: 572	Originally Posted by Blue Wode Apparently he’s not going to be mentioning homeopathy Wonder why not, worried about giggling at the back perhaps. The WHO is notoriously creduloid about scam see - http://www.health24.com/natural/Ther...17-670-684.asp "Homeopathy has proven consistently effective in treating conditions for which conventional medicine has little to offer. The World Health Organisation has recognized the value of homoeopathy as one of the systems of traditional medicine that should be integrated world-wide with conventional medicine in order to provide adequate global health care" Yuri
	__________________ "The test of democracy is freedom of criticism." -David Ben-Gurion Peasant: Now we see the violence inherent in the system. King: Shut up! Peasant: Come and see the violence inherent in the system, help, help! I’m being repressed! King: Bloody peasant! Peasant: Ooh, what a giveaway, did you hear that... that’s what I’m on about, d’you see him repressing me? You saw it didn’t you... - Monty Python and The Holy Grail

14th May 2006, 06:58 AM	#6
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230	I suppose you can't blame Charlie. He got this particular Woo's Disease from his mum, who got it from her mum, who got it from the rest of the Godforsaken family in the 19th century. I think it was Albert, wasn't it, who started the trend by bringing homeopathy with him from Germany? A pity really - in many other respects, he was a very modern thinker for his time.
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230

14th May 2006, 07:02 AM	#7
Deetee Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,386	Quote: The Prince of Wales will urge doctors to start using unconventional techniques such as chiropractic, acupuncture and herbal medicines to treat serious illnesses, in a speech to the World Health Organisation next week. He doesn't get it, does he. "Serious illnesses"?? SCAM only appears to work for chronic illnesses that are inconsequential or relatively minor, or those that are likely to show spontaneous remission. (insert Charles' speech bubble here)
Deetee Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,386	__________________ "Reci bobu bob a popu pop." - Tanja "Everything is physics. This does not mean that physics is everything." - Cuddles "The entire practice of homeopathy can be substituted with the advice to "take two aspirins and call me in the morning." - Linda "Homeopathy: I never knew there was so little in it." - BSM

14th May 2006, 02:11 AM	#2
The Don Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Brizzle Posts: 3,527	Another great advert for republicasnism

14th May 2006, 02:20 AM	#3
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 5,805	No...i think it's great that Charles is getting involved...... it gives alternative therapy even less credibility

14th May 2006, 07:58 AM	#8
Cynric Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 253	Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus The WHO is notoriously creduloid about scam see - http://www.health24.com/natural/Ther...17-670-684.asp "Homeopathy has proven consistently effective in treating conditions for which conventional medicine has little to offer. The World Health Organisation has recognized the value of homoeopathy as one of the systems of traditional medicine that should be integrated world-wide with conventional medicine in order to provide adequate global health care" This is the WHO that is mandated to deal with pandemics and newly emerging diseases? Well, no fear about bird flu then. Magic water all round. To be fair, though, that article was written by a homoeopath, not renowned for good relations with the truth.
Cynric Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 253

14th May 2006, 08:00 AM	#9
Blue Wode Muse Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 990	Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus The WHO is notoriously creduloid about scam It seems to be. Here’s the WHO’s Guidelines on Basic Training and Safety in Chiropractic: http://www.chiroeco.com/50/bonus/WHOguidelines.pdf Yet another official resource that’s content to offer up vague descriptions of chiropractic ‘subluxations’ instead of saying that they remain scientifically unproven. No doubt the disproportionately large number of sCAM proponents who participated in the development of the guidelines - including the Chief Executive of HRH’s Foundation for Integrated Health – had something to do with it.
Blue Wode Muse Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 990

14th May 2006, 09:35 AM	#10
Yuri Nalyssus Muse Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Ancient Isle of Avignuon Posts: 572	Originally Posted by Cynric To be fair, though, that article was written by a homoeopath, not renowned for good relations with the truth. There is a WHO guidelines paper on the integration of homoeopathy, I've got the link somewhere, just not here unfortunately. The link I posted serves to show just how readily homoeopaths will clutch at any proffered straw no matter how cautious or 'even handed' it might be and spin it to appear like support. People read "the WHO supports homoeopathy" but how many bother to go to the source reference (especially as it's not usually given in such web-sites). Yuri
	__________________ "The test of democracy is freedom of criticism." -David Ben-Gurion Peasant: Now we see the violence inherent in the system. King: Shut up! Peasant: Come and see the violence inherent in the system, help, help! I’m being repressed! King: Bloody peasant! Peasant: Ooh, what a giveaway, did you hear that... that’s what I’m on about, d’you see him repressing me? You saw it didn’t you... - Monty Python and The Holy Grail

14th May 2006, 09:41 AM	#11
T'ai Chi Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 11,233	If he is saying 'look we need to put more emphasis on preventive medicine, lifestyle choices, diet, and exercise' then that is a good thing. If he's saying (which I doubt) 'we need to replace heart surgery with acupuncture', than that is a bad thing.
	__________________ http://www.statisticool.com

14th May 2006, 09:51 AM	#12
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,805	Originally Posted by T'ai Chi If he is saying 'look we need to put more emphasis on preventive medicine, lifestyle choices, diet, and exercise' then that is a good thing. If he's saying (which I doubt) 'we need to replace heart surgery with acupuncture', than that is a bad thing. What part of "chiropractic, acupuncture and herbal medicines" don't you understand?
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

14th May 2006, 09:59 AM	#13
Yuri Nalyssus Muse Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Ancient Isle of Avignuon Posts: 572	http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4312780.stm "Complementary therapies should be given a greater role in the NHS, a report commissioned by the Prince of Wales has said" I'm sure he wouldn't want to treat heart failure solely with homoeopathy, that sort of thing might be a bit of a give away (nothing like dead bodies to spoil a good thing) but his interest certainly extends further than just making sure you eat lots of fruit. Yuri ps ...(as a pure ad hominem self indulgence) he also talks to plants.
	__________________ "The test of democracy is freedom of criticism." -David Ben-Gurion Peasant: Now we see the violence inherent in the system. King: Shut up! Peasant: Come and see the violence inherent in the system, help, help! I’m being repressed! King: Bloody peasant! Peasant: Ooh, what a giveaway, did you hear that... that’s what I’m on about, d’you see him repressing me? You saw it didn’t you... - Monty Python and The Holy Grail

14th May 2006, 10:23 AM	#14
Hindmost Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Draco Tavern Posts: 2,555	maybe this is why his mom won't let him be king. glenn
	__________________ Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong. Carl Sagan

14th May 2006, 01:02 PM	#15
Thing ...now with added haecceity! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Beside myself Posts: 502	So that makes three Fellows of the Royal Society with pro-homoeopathy views that I know of. Makes me feel a lot better about the fact that I'll never be one. Well, a little anyway
	__________________ One evening I came home to find my wife dissolved in tears. After crystallizing her over a bunsen burner, I managed to elicit the reason. S. J. Perelman

14th May 2006, 05:36 PM	#16
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230	Originally Posted by glennmr78 maybe this is why his mom won't let him be king. glenn Yep - the last mad one lost them a whole continent, and there's not much left of the British Empire left to lose these days.
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230

14th May 2006, 05:46 PM	#17
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,450	Originally Posted by Zep A pity really - in many other respects, he was a very modern thinker for his time. Well, homeopathy was modern thinking for his time. It's just not modern thinking for our time, along with public hangings, corsets and cleaning your teeth with coal dust.
	__________________ TAM London Oct 3rd and 4th 2009 www.tamlondon.org www.spoonscience.com The World Record Spoon Bend from TAM6 - for all benders, pushers and dealers

14th May 2006, 09:14 PM	#18
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230	Originally Posted by tkingdoll Well, homeopathy was modern thinking for his time. It's just not modern thinking for our time, along with public hangings, corsets and cleaning your teeth with coal dust. Actually, homeopathy was well debunked even in Victoria's time, and the placebo effect well understood. The UK led the world in a number of medical advances in that time - anaesthetics, antiseptics, modern surgery, etc.
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230

14th May 2006, 11:40 PM	#19
Mojo Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 14,504	Originally Posted by T'ai Chi If he is saying 'look we need to put more emphasis on preventive medicine, lifestyle choices, diet, and exercise' then that is a good thing. If he's saying (which I doubt) 'we need to replace heart surgery with acupuncture', than that is a bad thing. Quote: Prince Charles will claim that such major chronic illnesses as diabetes and heart disease, which affect tens of millions worldwide, could be successfully treated using complementary medicines and a "whole body" approach to healthcare. Note the word "treated" in that sentence.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield Ridicule is not an inappropriate response to the ridiculous.

15th May 2006, 04:23 AM	#20
Euromutt Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Auburn, WA, USA Posts: 1,084	Originally Posted by Cynric This is the WHO that is mandated to deal with pandemics and newly emerging diseases? Well, kind of. The WHO is a UN organization, which means it's under pressure not to openly rubbish sCAM from various member states which practice different varieties of sCAM. The WHO can't proclaim that TCM (including acupuncture) is bogus, for example, without the Chinese getting huffy, and it can't proclaim that homeopathy is bogus without the various European countries (among others) who have incorporated it into their socialized medicine systems getting huffy. But despite the lip service, you won't find the WHO recommending any variety of sCAM in practice. The organization isn't actually creduloid, it just has to pretend it is.
	__________________ "Sergeant Colon had had a broad education. He’d been to the School of My Dad Always Said, the College of It Stands to Reason, and was now a post-graduate student at the University of What Some Bloke In the Pub Told Me." - Terry Pratchett, Jingo by birth, by choice

15th May 2006, 07:03 AM	#21
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	Originally Posted by Euromutt But despite the lip service, you won't find the WHO recommending any variety of sCAM in practice. The organization isn't actually creduloid, it just has to pretend it is. That's... erm, quasi-comforting. In a way. Pardon me, I have to go cringe for a while over the whole issue.

15th May 2006, 07:07 AM	#22
aggle-rithm Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 6,271	Originally Posted by glennmr78 maybe this is why his mom won't let him be king. By not dying?
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

15th May 2006, 07:09 AM	#23
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	She could always abdicate orf o' it.

15th May 2006, 07:28 AM	#24
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 6,226	I'd say he has a point...but, before I buy it, I'd like him also to say that strange women lying in ponds distributing semitaras is no basis for a system of government...
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

15th May 2006, 12:45 PM	#25
Hellbound ex-Huntsman Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: A Luxury Handbasket Posts: 5,622	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 I'd say he has a point...but, before I buy it, I'd like him also to say that strange women lying in ponds distributing semitaras is no basis for a system of government... Right. If I went around claiming to be emporer because some watery tart threw a scimitar at me, they'd put me away! Help! Help! I'm being repressed! Come see the violence inherit in the system! [/MPQHG]
	__________________ "The overarching lesson that has emerged from scientific inquiry over the last century is that human experience is often a misleading guide to the true nature of reality."--Brain Greene, The Fabric of the Cosmos

15th May 2006, 12:59 PM	#26
Blue Wode Muse Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 990	Originally Posted by Euromutt The WHO can't proclaim that TCM (including acupuncture) is bogus, for example, without the Chinese getting huffy, and it can't proclaim that homeopathy is bogus without the various European countries (among others) who have incorporated it into their socialized medicine systems getting huffy. …which means that certain sections of the WHO’s guidelines on developing consumer information on proper use of traditional, complementary and alternative medicines are likely to be completely ignored… http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/...en/index1.html And it doesn’t look like accurate consumer information will become much of a priority with the Prince of Wales’s Foundation for Integrated Health either: http://www.fih.org.uk/
Blue Wode Muse Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 990

15th May 2006, 04:03 PM	#27
Cynric Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 253	Just caught our beloved future king on telly; tail end of an interview, so only a soundbite (I think it was related to the Prince's Trust, which does do very good work). The interviewer asked whether it was appropriate for the future monarch to be involved in "various causes". Future monarch replied [paraphrase]: "To be honest, I think it would be, sort of, criminally negligent of me to travel round the country seeing these things and not commenting on them." Not melodramatic in the least. Perhaps a little neglience of topics outside one's expertise would be appropriate?
Cynric Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 253

15th May 2006, 04:28 PM	#28
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 5,706	I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing. Think of it as Darwinian natural selection in action. It's nature simply eliminating those whose brains are not sufficiently adapted for survival in the modern world.
	__________________ "All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams "The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf

16th May 2006, 05:56 AM	#29
Hindmost Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Draco Tavern Posts: 2,555	Originally Posted by aggle-rithm By not dying? I was thinking along the lines of abdicating....however, I wasn't really serious. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, but there should be level of critical thinking required before someone becomes a king...or president. glenn
	__________________ Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong. Carl Sagan

16th May 2006, 06:27 AM	#30
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,450	Originally Posted by Cynric Just caught our beloved future king on telly; tail end of an interview, so only a soundbite (I think it was related to the Prince's Trust, which does do very good work). The interviewer asked whether it was appropriate for the future monarch to be involved in "various causes". Future monarch replied [paraphrase]: "To be honest, I think it would be, sort of, criminally negligent of me to travel round the country seeing these things and not commenting on them." Not melodramatic in the least. Perhaps a little neglience of topics outside one's expertise would be appropriate? What a moron. What crime does he imagine that would fall under? First degree apathy?
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16th May 2006, 10:32 AM	#31
Hellbound ex-Huntsman Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: A Luxury Handbasket Posts: 5,622	Originally Posted by glennmr78 I was thinking along the lines of abdicating....however, I wasn't really serious. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, but there should be level of critical thinking required before someone becomes a king...or president. glenn Or a parent, or a voter, or a teacher, or a doctor, or, well, being able to breath. Alas, in a perfect world...
	__________________ "The overarching lesson that has emerged from scientific inquiry over the last century is that human experience is often a misleading guide to the true nature of reality."--Brain Greene, The Fabric of the Cosmos

16th May 2006, 10:38 AM	#32
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,894	Originally Posted by tkingdoll What a moron. What crime does he imagine that would fall under? First degree apathy? Lack of Divine Right perhaps?
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

16th May 2006, 12:49 PM	#33
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,805	Originally Posted by Darat Lack of Divine Right perhaps? ..."by their Creator"...
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16th May 2006, 12:57 PM	#34
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 6,226	Charles' problem isn't that it would be "criminal" for him not to comment on the things he sees, it that if he wasn't in his position because of his genes and birth order, no one would give two cents without his having achieved a position ON HIS OWN MERIT that commanded public respect and attention. He basically is saying "I, by virtue of my genes, understandably need to comment on the weighty issues of the day and be listented to..." Even the increasingly insufferable Bono had to go out and create himself a superstar through his own hard work before he was deemed so important a person as to merit attention...
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

16th May 2006, 01:12 PM	#35
Mojo Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 14,504	Well, if he didn't keep on making a fool of himself people might begin to notice that he doesn't actually do anything...
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield Ridicule is not an inappropriate response to the ridiculous.