What They're Teaching Saudi Kids

[BPSCG]

Peace, love, and tolerance.

[Cheesejoff]

I found this particular section ironic:

"Jihad in the path of God -- which consists of battling against unbelief, oppression, injustice, and those who perpetrate it -- is the summit of Islam"

Thye should be battling against themselves.

[fabian_lidman]

Another generation of perfectly innocent children brainwashed. It's a pity.

[BPSCG]

Just remember this next time you hear someone say that our presence in Iraq is what's creating terrorists. Nope. They're being created in first grade. And we'll never be rid of them until "our friends, the Saudis" and other Muslim governments stop breeding them.

[Tricky]

Originally Posted by Cheesejoff

I found this particular section ironic:

"Jihad in the path of God -- which consists of battling against unbelief, oppression, injustice, and those who perpetrate it -- is the summit of Islam"

They should be battling against themselves.

Isn't the USA dedicated to battling oppression and injustice? And don't we invoke God in a number of our patriotic songs and prose? With the exception of "battling unbelief", this could be the same thing they teach in America. And "battling unbelief" is trying to get a piece of the action here too.

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by Tricky

Isn't the USA dedicated to battling oppression and injustice? And don't we invoke God in a number of our patriotic songs and prose? With the exception of "battling unbelief", this could be the same thing they teach in America. And "battling unbelief" is trying to get a piece of the action here too.

Yes, this is exactly the same thing

I'll be back later, were going to go stone my neighbor for converting to christianity

According to the book we need to make sure the stones arent to small to cause pain, nor so large as to cause quick death

[Just thinking]

And to think, this is after things were toned down.

Just what was in those texts before?

[SuperCoolGuy]

"Undeterred by Wahhabism's historically fringe status, Saudi Arabia is trying to assert itself as the world's authoritative voice on Islam -- a sort of "Vatican" for Islam, as several Saudi officials have stated-- and these textbooks are integral to this effort."

American Muslims tend to recognize this "Vatican" effort by Saudi Arabia. The straightforward determination of religious holidays ends up being a stupid moon sighting contest that Saudi always wins since those "western" countries can't be trusted.

Technically, there should be no "Vatican" or centralized religious authority since Islam is suppose to be simple adherence to the Quran by each individual. But somebody's got to decipher the rules, I guess.

Wahhabism was something I never heard of as a muslim, yet in hindsight, the most ardent and "religious" Muslims I knew of spoke and thought along the lines of wahhabism.

Wahhabism ends up being merely Islamic bravado. The bigger a jerk you can be, the better a wahhabist.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by SuperCoolGuy

Wahhabism ends up being merely Islamic bravado. The bigger a jerk you can be, the better a wahhabist.

Sums up the exremist xians I have met, too. It's like a competition.

And Wahabism has been around in Saudi for years, it was way the Sauds hoped to keep the place a kingdom under their rule. Surprise, surprise, Wahabism preaches against overthrowing the government.

[Jocko]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Sums up the exremist xians I have met, too. It's like a competition.

Wow, you know, I went to Sunday school for a few years as a kid. I don't recall anything along those lines. How about you elaborate? Or is this another case of "they did it in the 14th century, therefore it's a valid tool for flimsy moral equivalency today" kind of thing?

Quote:

And Wahabism has been around in Saudi for years, it was way the Sauds hoped to keep the place a kingdom under their rule. Surprise, surprise, Wahabism preaches against overthrowing the government.

So you approve of US support of the Saud family? Or would you rather see the Wahabis formally in charge (as opposed to the de facto cultural dominance they enjoy today)?

[Crossbow]

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Just remember this next time you hear someone say that our presence in Iraq is what's creating terrorists. Nope. They're being created in first grade. And we'll never be rid of them until "our friends, the Saudis" and other Muslim governments stop breeding them.

I think that you are significantly overstating the one thing and understating the other.

School textbooks do not do all that much to influence adult actions. If that were the case, then all those years of anti-American propaganda distributed in the textbooks used by the USSR public education system would have resulted in a vast hatred of all things American in the former USSR. Never the less, the citizens of those countries threw off the Communist governments and destroyed the propaganda as soon as they could do so.

In the other case, the USA killing over 100,000 Iraqis based on a rationale that was built on lies as told by our born again Christian president has done far more to incite anti-USA violence than any group of textbooks could ever do.

[Manny]

Originally Posted by Crossbow

In the other case, the USA killing over 100,000 Iraqis based on a rationale that was built on lies as told by our born again Christian president has done far more to incite anti-USA violence than any group of textbooks could ever do.

I wonder if people making up the number of dead out of whole cloth might be an element.

[BPSCG]

Originally Posted by Crossbow

School textbooks do not do all that much to influence adult actions.

So spending 6-7 hours a day in school for 12 or so years didn't have much influence on the kind of adult you became?

What did, then?

Quote:

If that were the case, then all those years of anti-American propaganda distributed in the textbooks used by the USSR public education system would have resulted in a vast hatred of all things American in the former USSR.

I'm not an expert on what was in Soviet-era schoolbooks, but I'm going to guess that whatever anti-American propaganda that was in them didn't include teaching Russian kids that Americans were unclean, not to be associated with, and ultimately killed in pursuit of the True Religion. Correct me if I am mistaken.

Quote:

Never the less, the citizens of those countries threw off the Communist governments

No, the U.S. challenged the biggest communist state to an arms race that ultimately led to that state's collapse.

[Crossbow]

Originally Posted by Manny

I wonder if people making up the number of dead out of whole cloth might be an element.

The figure used was hardly made up sir.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Minimum Max
37,848
Maximum
42,216

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/

Study puts Iraqi toll at 100,000

Friday, October 29, 2004 Posted: 1:10 AM EDT (0510 GMT)

LONDON, England -- Public health experts have estimated that around 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died since the United States invaded Iraq in March last year.

...

Of course, this report is about 17 months old, so the figure of 100,000 Iraqis being killed could be much higher by now.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Crossbow

In the other case, the USA killing over 100,000 Iraqis based on a rationale that was built on lies as told by our born again Christian president has done far more to incite anti-USA violence than any group of textbooks could ever do.

We've been over this before, Crossbow. The Lancet numbers are simply unreliable. The best sampling survey estimate for casualties due to the war is from the UN Development Program survey, which sampled over 20 times as many households and didn't skip any provinces like the Lancet study did. It arrived at a much smaller figure of around 24,000 dead (IIRC), and with much smaller error bars (the error bars on the Lancet study were so huge that they include even the lower bound of the UNDP study). So why are you still repeating outdated and inaccurate information when better information has become available since then? You're a tool, Crossbow.

Another point is that BOTH number includes civilians and combatants (terrorists, Iraqi military under Saddam, and Iraqi security forces), and also do not distinguish between Iraqis killed by coalition forces and Iraqis killed by other Iraqis.

[Crossbow]

Originally Posted by BPSCG

So spending 6-7 hours a day in school for 12 or so years didn't have much influence on the kind of adult you became?

I do not think that it did.

At the grade school I went to we would start every day with a prayer and reciting the 'Pledge of Allegiance', my family and I went to church every week, and my father was minister. Yet I turned out be a person rather critical of the government and religion.

Quote:

What did, then?

I have found that events, facts, research, experience, travel, have far, far more impact on person than does any amount propaganda regardless of who the sponsor of it may be. In my life, I have found that is also the case with most people as well.

Quote:

I'm not an expert on what was in Soviet-era schoolbooks, but I'm going to guess that whatever anti-American propaganda that was in them didn't include teaching Russian kids that Americans were unclean, not to be associated with, and ultimately killed in pursuit of the True Religion. Correct me if I am mistaken.

Well, I am not an expert in Soviet-era textbooks either, but I have read several books about the USSR and for several years ALL of the textbooks had a picture of Stalin on the inside front cover. Whereas books about history and current events described how the West, religious elements, capitalists, others were out to "destroy the mother country", bring back serfdom, and turn the people into slaves in order to make money from their labors.

Quote:

No, the U.S. challenged the biggest communist state to an arms race that ultimately led to that state's collapse.

Exactly so! And yet all of their vast and well-funded propaganda efforts could not change reality. I should think that would tell a person something.

[zenith-nadir]

From the article:

Quote:

Prince Turki al-Faisal, the Saudi ambassador to the United States, has worked aggressively to spread this message. "The kingdom has reviewed all of its education practices and materials, and has removed any element that is inconsistent with the needs of a modern education," he said on a recent speaking tour to several U.S. cities. "Not only have we eliminated what might be perceived as intolerance from old textbooks that were in our system, we have implemented a comprehensive internal revision and modernization plan."

Well as we all know now and as the article stated:

Quote:

These claims are not true.

The Saudis - Syrians, Iranians, Palestinians - think we in the West are as gullable as their own and would never bother to investigate something that Prince Turki al-Faisal promises up and down is not happening...They just expect us to capitulate to their "royal" decrees.

This is just another reality check when one is dealing with the Saudis...

Quote:

The apes are Jews, the people of the Sabbath; while the swine are the Christians, the infidels of the communion of Jesus."

"The clash between this [Muslim] community (umma) and the Jews and Christians has endured, and it will continue as long as God wills."

Sorry to disagree with some JREFers but that kind of rhetoric was never taught to me at school in Grade eight, nine or ten...or at my synagogue..or at home. To compare this rhetoric to American "patriotic songs and prose" is woo.

[BPSCG]

Originally Posted by Crossbow

I do not think that it did.

At the grade school I went to we would start every day with a prayer and reciting the 'Pledge of Allegiance', my family and I went to church every week, and my father was minister. Yet I turned out be a person rather critical of the government and religion.

So blind acceptance of religion and government is all that your tried to teach you? And you rejected it?

You started getting educated and socialized beginning at age 18?

Quote:

Exactly so! And yet all of their vast and well-funded propaganda efforts could not change reality. I should think that would tell a person something.

Yeah - that the masses in the Soviet Union did not "throw off the communist government," as you put it.

[TriangleMan]

Just for the record I now live in a Wahhabi nation (Qatar) and while it is conservative in many respects I've heard from people that it is like Amsterdam compared to Saudi Arabia. I'm not entirely sure Wahhabi is to blame here, fundmentalism in any religion appears to breed intolerance.

Some of the examples given in the article may be out of the Qu'ran; I remember reading in it that Jews were "cursed by God" and Christians were "led astray" - not sure why. Maybe some of the other things in the textbook were part-Qu'ran part generous-helping-of-intolerance.

[Jocko]

Originally Posted by Crossbow

I do not think that it did.

At the grade school I went to we would start every day with a prayer and reciting the 'Pledge of Allegiance', my family and I went to church every week, and my father was minister. Yet I turned out be a person rather critical of the government and religion.

Crossbow, this is precisely what people say about advertising. Ask anyone, and they'll give you a litany of reasons for their consumer choices, but will always remark that they "aren't influenced by advertising."

And they are, to a man, categorically and utterly wrong in this respect.

[bjb]

Originally Posted by Jocko

Wow, you know, I went to Sunday school for a few years as a kid. I don't recall anything along those lines. How about you elaborate? Or is this another case of "they did it in the 14th century, therefore it's a valid tool for flimsy moral equivalency today" kind of thing?

Here you go:

http://www.battlecry.com/

and

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...lecry_ron_luce

For what it's worth, I don't claim that the average Christian thinks like this. But these kinds of Christians are out there, and it would be great if Sunday schools would teach something about this type of lunacy.

[edited several times to fix links, spelling, and grammar]

[Jocko]

Originally Posted by bjb

Here you go:

http://www.battlecry.com/

and

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...lecry_ron_luce

For what it's worth, I don't claim that the average Christian thinks like this. But these kinds of Christians are out there, and it would be great if Sunday schools would teach something about this type of lunacy.

[edited several times to fix links, spelling, and grammar]

Sorry, could you point me to the content you equate to radical islam? I took a look but it all looked fairly innocuous to me.

Quote:

BattleCry Explodes Onto the Scene in Detroit
Read about the Detroit BattleCry Stadium Event, where God changed thousands of lives.

Quote:

Engaging Pastors and Parents in the Fight
Learn what the BattleCry is doing to solve the systemic issues of youth ministry.

Quote:

A stealthy enemy has infiltrated our country and is preying upon the hearts and minds of 33 million American teens. Corporations, media conglomerates, and purveyors of popular culture have spent billions to seduce and enslave our youth. So far, the enemy is winning. But there is plenty we can do. We need to take action. We need to answer the Battle Cry.

A lot loopier than I like my ol' time religion, but hardly calling for the extermination of the infidels, isn't it?

ETA: This is also unlike Saudi Wahabism in that these are privately funded groups, as opposed to state-sanctioned entities.

[bjb]

No.

At first, I wanted to just post this link:

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...lecry_ron_luce

but it is a pretty one-sided story. I thought anyone looking at the official Battlecry website would see how crazy they were, but obviously I was wrong.

Here's a quote from the story (Evangelist Franklin Graham speaking):

[Graham next told the biblical story of Daniel “taming the Babylonians.” After celebrating the U.S. troops who are killing people by the thousands in Iraq right now, he preached that there is “no difference between the Iraqis today and Babylon 1,000 years ago.” In the Bible, Babylon is the epitome of evil and decadence. All manner of bloodlust and plunder against it is not just condoned but celebrated. As Psalm 137:9 spells out, even the babies are to be dashed against the rocks.

While calling on the youths present to engage in this “battle for the souls of men,” he declared: “No souls can be saved without the shedding of blood. Blood must be shed!” ]

As you can see, it is a very biased article, so read it with a critical eye. Even so, it is clear that these Battlezone freaks want a war with Islam.

[BPSCG]

Originally Posted by bjb

As you can see, it is a very biased article, so read it with a critical eye. Even so, it is clear that these Battlezone freaks want a war with Islam.

Okay, let's do a thought experiment.

Let's take the text from the link in the OP that shows what Muslim kids are being taught and reverse it. Where it says "Christians," we change it to "Muslims," where it says "the prophet," we change it to "the savior," where it says "Muhammad," we change it to "Jesus," and so forth.

Now, imagine that you find the following not only in private Christian schools in the U.S., but in the public schools as well. And imagine that it was not just in some public school, but in all of them. And imagine that those texts were published not just with the approval of the U.S. government, but with its full backing and financing:

Quote:

FIRST GRADE
"Every religion other than Christianity is false."

"Fill in the blanks with the appropriate words (Christianity, hellfire): Every religion other than ______________ is false. Whoever dies outside of Christianity enters ____________."

FOURTH GRADE
"True belief means . . . that you hate the polytheists and infidels but do not treat them unjustly."

FIFTH GRADE
"Whoever obeys the savior Jesus and accepts the oneness of God cannot maintain a loyal friendship with those who oppose God and the savior Jesus, even if they are his closest relatives."

"It is forbidden for a Christian to be a loyal friend to someone who does not believe in God and the savior Jesus, or someone who fights the religion of Christianity."

"A Christian, even if he lives far away, is your brother in religion. Someone who opposes God, even if he is your brother by family tie, is your enemy in religion."

SIXTH GRADE
"Just as Christians were successful in the past when they came together in a sincere endeavor to evict the Muslim heathens from Palestine, so will the whites and Christians emerge victorious, God willing, against the Jews and their allies if they stand together and fight a true Crusade for God, for this is within God's power."

EIGHTH GRADE
"As cited in the Bible: The apes are Jews, the people of the Sabbath; while the swine are the Muslims, the pedarasts of Muhammad."

"God told the savior, Jesus, about the Jews, who learned from parts of God's book [the Torah and the Gospels] that God alone is worthy of worship. Despite this, they espouse falsehood through idol-worship, soothsaying, and sorcery. In doing so, they obey the devil. They prefer the people of falsehood to the people of the truth out of envy and hostility. This earns them condemnation and is a warning to us not to do as they did."

"They are the Jews, whom God has cursed and with whom He is so angry that He will never again be satisfied [with them]."

"Some of the people of the Sabbath were punished by being turned into apes and swine. Some of them were made to worship the devil, and not God, through consecration, sacrifice, prayer, appeals for help, and other types of worship. Some of the Jews worship the devil. Likewise, some members of this nation worship the devil, and not God."

"Activity: The student writes a composition on the danger of imitating the heathen Muslims."

NINTH GRADE
"The clash between this [Christian] community and the Jews and Muslims has endured, and it will continue as long as God wills."

"It is part of God's wisdom that the struggle between the Christian and the Jews should continue until the hour [of judgment]."

"Christians will triumph because they are right. He who is right is always victorious, even if most people are against him."

TENTH GRADE
The 10th-grade text on jurisprudence teaches that life for non-Christians (as well as women, and, by implication, slaves) is worth a fraction of that of a "free Christian male." Blood money is retribution paid to the victim or the victim's heirs for murder or injury:

"Blood money for a free Muslim. [Its quantity] is half of the blood money for a male Christian, whether or not he is a Jew or not (such as a pagan, Unitarian, etc.).

"Blood money for a woman: Half of the blood money for a man, in accordance with his religion. The blood money for a Christian woman is half of the blood money for a male Christian, and the blood money for an non-Christian (infidel) woman is half of the blood money for a non-Christian (infidel)."

ELEVENTH GRADE
"The greeting 'Peace be upon you' is specifically for Christians. It cannot be said to others."

"If one comes to a place where there is a mixture of Christians and non-Christians, one should offer a greeting intended for the Christians."

"Do not yield to them [Muslims and Jews] on a narrow road out of honor and respect."

TWELFTH GRADE
"Crusade in the path of God -- which consists of battling against unbelief, oppression, injustice, and those who perpetrate it -- is the summit of Christianity. This religion arose through crusade and through crusade was its banner raised high. It is one of the noblest acts, which brings one closer to God, and one of the most magnificent acts of obedience to God."

Now, who still wants to say, "Well, we do the equivalent thing in America..."?

[burrahobbit]

I do not think anyone can argue that fundie Xians are as bad as the Wahhabi Saudis.

I do think the US should be (and should have been) taking a long hard look at what the Saudi funded schools are doing worldwide.

And these are your ALLIES in the war on terror.

Whit friends like these......

[BPSCG]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

I do not think anyone can argue that fundie Xians are as bad as the Wahhabi Saudis.

Ah, you haven't met Tony yet, I see.

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by Manny

I wonder if people making up the number of dead out of whole cloth might be an element.

Note also the "blame America first" stance that lays all the deaths at the feet of the US, even though the vast, vast majority were deaths due to terrorist strikes.

[Crossbow]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

We've been over this before, Crossbow. The Lancet numbers are simply unreliable. The best sampling survey estimate for casualties due to the war is from the UN Development Program survey, which sampled over 20 times as many households and didn't skip any provinces like the Lancet study did. It arrived at a much smaller figure of around 24,000 dead (IIRC), and with much smaller error bars (the error bars on the Lancet study were so huge that they include even the lower bound of the UNDP study). So why are you still repeating outdated and inaccurate information when better information has become available since then? You're a tool, Crossbow.

Another point is that BOTH number includes civilians and combatants (terrorists, Iraqi military under Saddam, and Iraqi security forces), and also do not distinguish between Iraqis killed by coalition forces and Iraqis killed by other Iraqis.

Well now, you sure are posting in your usual style.

On Monday you called me "pathetic" and on "Tuesday" you called me a "tool", so I wonder what you will call me today.

Anyway, since you are such an incredibly smart and informed person then I guess you should be the one to tell Bush how wrong he was when he disscussed how many Iraqis have died in the war about five months ago.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0051212-4.html

President Discusses War on Terror and Upcoming Iraqi Elections

December 12, 2005

...

Qusetion:
Since the inception of the Iraqi war, I'd like to know the approximate total of Iraqis who have been killed. And by Iraqis I include civilians, military, police, insurgents, translators.

THE PRESIDENT:
How many Iraqi citizens have died in this war? I would say 30,000, more or less, have died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis. We've lost about 2,140 of our own troops in Iraq.

...

If 25,000 Iraqis have been killed as you say (but for some reason you do not count the deaths of Iraqis in the military),
Or if 30,000 Iraqis have been killed as Bush says,
Or if 45,000 Iraqis have been killed as media analysis has concluded,
Or if 100,000 Iraqis have been killed as the Lancet studies have show,

Then that is still a great many people who have been killed by the USA who should have never been killed by the USA. It is due to this action and many others why there is such entrenched and popular anti-West sentiment in the Middle East (as indicated by the Saudi public education program).

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by Crossbow

At the grade school I went to we would start every day with a prayer and reciting the 'Pledge of Allegiance', my family and I went to church every week, and my father was minister. Yet I turned out be a person rather critical of the government and religion.

One could argue the system worked as it was supposed to. Criticizing and resisting government is a core American value. But respecting the institutions and cultural attitudes that declare such things important is something worthy of respect.

Quote:

Well, I am not an expert in Soviet-era textbooks either, but I have read several books about the USSR and for several years ALL of the textbooks had a picture of Stalin on the inside front cover.

I recall seeing them interview a Soviet college student in the late '80's when the USSR was cracking down on something or other, and she said something like "It's good the government supresses people who don't think this way."

Yes, it isn't just some POS out of a fantasy novel.

[BPSCG]

Originally Posted by Crossbow

If 25,000 Iraqis have been killed as you say (but for some reason you do not count the deaths of Iraqis in the military),
Or if 30,000 Iraqis have been killed as Bush says,
Or if 45,000 Iraqis have been killed as media analysis has concluded,
Or if 100,000 Iraqis have been killed as the Lancet studies have show,

Then that is still a great many people who have been killed by the USA who should have never been killed by the USA.

They were all killed by the U.S.?

Don't you think you might want to rephrase that, laddie?

Quote:

It is due to this action and many others why there is such entrenched and popular anti-West sentiment in the Middle East (as indicated by the Saudi public education program).

Really? So the "Saudi public education program" is a recent development? Was it put into place after the Iraq invasion? After the Afghanistan invasion? After September 11? After Gulf War I?

If none of the above, please tell us how long the Saudis have been filling their schoolchildren's heads with this kind of poison.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by Jocko

Wow, you know, I went to Sunday school for a few years as a kid. I don't recall anything along those lines. How about you elaborate? Or is this another case of "they did it in the 14th century, therefore it's a valid tool for flimsy moral equivalency today" kind of thing?



So you approve of US support of the Saud family? Or would you rather see the Wahabis formally in charge (as opposed to the de facto cultural dominance they enjoy today)?

Why should I reply to anything you write?

[Crossbow]

Originally Posted by Jocko

Crossbow, this is precisely what people say about advertising. Ask anyone, and they'll give you a litany of reasons for their consumer choices, but will always remark that they "aren't influenced by advertising."

And they are, to a man, categorically and utterly wrong in this respect.

Sorry, but that is just not right.

While advertising can be quite effective to get people to buy things that they want.
Or get them to buy more of something that they want.
Or get them to buy what they want from a different manufacturer.

But if the people do not want the item being marketed, then it does not matter how well funded, invasive, or widespread the advertising is, then the people will not buy that item.

To prove this point, one simply has to look at the large number of very expensive and well planned advertising campaigns that have completely failed because the item was not desired by the public (i.e. the Ford 'Edsel').

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

I do not think anyone can argue that fundie Xians are as bad as the Wahhabi Saudis.

I do think the US should be (and should have been) taking a long hard look at what the Saudi funded schools are doing worldwide.

And these are your ALLIES in the war on terror.

Whit friends like these......

I do not know if the argument is valid, but it is definitely arguable.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by zenith-nadir

From the article:



Well as we all know now and as the article stated:



The Saudis - Syrians, Iranians, Palestinians - think we in the West are as gullable as their own and would never bother to investigate something that Prince Turki al-Faisal promises up and down is not happening...They just expect us to capitulate to their "royal" decrees.

This is just another reality check when one is dealing with the Saudis...

Sorry to disagree with some JREFers but that kind of rhetoric was never taught to me at school in Grade eight, nine or ten...or at my synagogue..or at home. To compare this rhetoric to American "patriotic songs and prose" is woo.

They don't use such crude language, but Bush is all about demonising, which is what references to 'apes' is all about. We already have calls coming from forum members to nuke Iran. It's WWI all over again.

[Jocko]

Originally Posted by Crossbow

Sorry, but that is just not right.

I'm an ad writer of 10 years. What are your credentials?

Quote:

While advertising can be quite effective to get people to buy things that they want.
Or get them to buy more of something that they want.
Or get them to buy what they want from a different manufacturer.

But if the people do not want the item being marketed, then it does not matter how well funded, invasive, or widespread the advertising is, then the people will not buy that item.

See how well I do my job? You actually believe this, don't you? Here's a one-word retort: McNuggets. Explain that one, Mr. Bernbach.*

Quote:

To prove this point, one simply has to look at the large number of very expensive and well planned advertising campaigns that have completely failed because the item was not desired by the public (i.e. the Ford 'Edsel').

I'm not saying we never make mistakes. But I am saying that part of controlling your buying habits is keeping you from noticing we control your buying habits.

You don't drive an Edsel. True. But you drive something else, and someone like me had a bit to do with your decision.

*Bill Bernbach is held as one of the finest minds in advertising in the last century, and rightly so. I once worked for the agency that bore his name (or initial, anyway).

[Jocko]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Why should I reply to anything you write?

Because you're an attention whore?

I can't think of any other reason that one would write a reply declaring that he won't write a reply. Can you?

[geni]

Originally Posted by Cheesejoff

I found this particular section ironic:

"Jihad in the path of God -- which consists of battling against unbelief, oppression, injustice, and those who perpetrate it -- is the summit of Islam"

Thye should be battling against themselves.

They are. Bin larden original was trying top get rid of the house of saud.

[Jocko]

Originally Posted by geni

They are. Bin larden original was trying top get rid of the house of saud.

Yeah, but their tactics make about as much sense as me punching out the banker who approved the loan for the builder who subcontracted out the sewer work that slowed traffic and made me late for work today.

But I still did it.

[Crossbow]

Originally Posted by Jocko

I'm an ad writer of 10 years. What are your credentials?

I am an electronics technician, an engineer, a college professor, a wood worker, and a pilot therefore I think that I am reasonably well qualified to make up my own mind as to what I buy.

Quote:

See how well I do my job? You actually believe this, don't you? Here's a one-word retort: McNuggets. Explain that one, Mr. Bernbach.*

Er, as for me I have purchased three orders of McNuggets in my life some years ago because they were something that I had not had before and they only cost one dollar. By the way, I understand that McDonalds is having revenue problems that all of there increased advertising has not helped a great deal restoring their market share. P.S.: I hardly eat at McDonalds at all any more, since there food is not really all that good.

Quote:

I'm not saying we never make mistakes. But I am saying that part of controlling your buying habits is keeping you from noticing we control your buying habits.

You don't drive an Edsel. True. But you drive something else, and someone like me had a bit to do with your decision.

*Bill Bernbach is held as one of the finest minds in advertising in the last century, and rightly so. I once worked for the agency that bore his name (or initial, anyway).

Thanks for admitting your fallibility and I do think that is fair to say that advertising has a bit to do with my buying habits. However you original statement said something far more powerful about the influence of advertising and that is the something which I disagree with.

[Crossbow]

Originally Posted by BPSCG

They were all killed by the U.S.?

Don't you think you might want to rephrase that, laddie?

Yes, they were all killed by the U.S. I do not know why that is so hard for you to understand, but it is just that simple.

The USA invaded Iraq which killed quite a few Iraqis.
After the invasion and into the present day, the USA failed to properly secure Iraq, so as Iraqis settled old scores against other Iraqis, criminals ran amok, and the Iraqi death toll continues to mount, the USA went around saying "stuff happens" and "mission accomplished".

Quote:

Really? So the "Saudi public education program" is a recent development? Was it put into place after the Iraq invasion? After the Afghanistan invasion? After September 11? After Gulf War I?

If none of the above, please tell us how long the Saudis have been filling their schoolchildren's heads with this kind of poison.

Well I never said anything about the Saudi public education program you speak of being a recent development.

I expect that it is not, but in any case, there have been considerable tensions between the Middle East and European countries for centuries so I expect that there has been at least some anti-Western sentiments being taught in their schools for at least the last several decades.