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tonyguitargoat · 23rd May 2006, 03:39 AM

From this morning's BBC news bulletin:-

"Some of Britain's leading doctors have urged NHS trusts to stop using complementary therapies.
They argue there is little firm evidence that techniques such as homeopathy work.
And they say it is wrong that complementary methods are not subject to the same vigorous tests as orthodox medicines.
However, many others - including the Prince of Wales - believe complementary medicine has a key role to play."

PROFESSOR MICHAEL BAUM, UNIVERSITY COLLEGE LONDON says;

"I am all in favour of treatments that make people better, and treatments that make people feel better, but there is the issue of evidence: how do we know that what we are witnessing is a real effect, or a placebo effect?

It does not matter if the placebo is non-toxic and cheap, but if the NHS is spending good money on placebos at the cost of not providing effective medicines, then it does matter.

I have been involved in the development of aromatase inhibitors (for breast cancer) for 12 years and we have had to cross every single hurdle.

All those hurdles are right and proper. All we are asking for is a single standard.

Let homeopathy jump over the hurdles that we have had to jump over to prove that aromatase inhibitors improve the outcome for breast cancer.

Homeopathy can't do any harm, because there is nothing in it. But at the same time the University College Hospital London Trust has spent, I think, £20m on refurbishing the Royal Homeopathic Hospital.

If that sum of money was spent on making available herceptin (for breast cancer) and the aromatase inhibitors then we could be saving, in my own health district, about 600 lives a year.

We need clinical trials to demonstrate that these placebo therapies actually enhance quality of life.

There have been umpteen overviews of all the available trials which fail to come up with any evidence that it does anything. "

Dragon · 23rd May 2006, 03:44 AM

Ahem!

Blue Wode · 23rd May 2006, 03:53 AM

In answer to your question, tonyguitargoat, the results (so far) of a poll being conducted by Sky News “Should the NHS fund complementary medicine?” look encouraging:

Yes 41.92% (174 votes)
No 58.07 % (241 votes)

For anyone who wants to vote, here’s the link:
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...525168,00.html

richardm · 23rd May 2006, 03:59 AM

It's still pretty marginal, though, isn't it?

Dragon · 23rd May 2006, 04:04 AM

Currently

Yes 38.78% (275 votes)
No 61.21% (434 votes)

P.S. Turn cookies off

Blue Wode · 23rd May 2006, 04:05 AM

Yes it is RichardM, but what’s interesting is that it doesn’t seem to be representative of the 70% of the population who supposedly want sCAM to be available on the NHS.

Mojo · 23rd May 2006, 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by richardm

It's still pretty marginal, though, isn't it?

It's better than New Labour did at the last general election.

Now 61/39 in favour of "no".

Rolfe · 23rd May 2006, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by richardm

It's still pretty marginal, though, isn't it?

Oh, I don't know. It would win you a general election! It's a lot better than I expected given the apparent level of woo out there, for example when there was a Saturday afternoon radio programme about it all, and the "yes" had it by a mile.

I think it's a true bill too, as the BBC poll is almost the same - running about 43/57 in favour of sanity. The lieges must have been listening to the scientists for once.

Rolfe.

richardm · 23rd May 2006, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Blue Wode

Yes it is RichardM, but what’s interesting is that it doesn’t seem to be representative of the 70% of the population who supposedly want sCAM to be available on the NHS.

True enough! And it's quite nice to see that it's not a "Yes!" landslide, as is all too frequently the case.

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Oh, I don't know. It would win you a general election!

geni · 23rd May 2006, 05:43 AM

Hmm both hpathy and otherhealth have threads calling for people to vote.

Rolfe · 23rd May 2006, 06:04 AM

And we're not voting, are we not?

I don't think you can vote twice on BBC polls though.

Rolfe.

EHocking · 23rd May 2006, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Hmm both hpathy and otherhealth have threads calling for people to vote.

You don't actually think that this may be an organised attempt at vote rigging do you?

Consider the two posts at those forums (fora?):

hpathy
Homeopathy Forums : Discussion
vote for Homeopathy on the BBC website
http://www.hpathy.com/homeopathyforu...?TID=4336&PN=1
Homeopathy is once again being slated by the media here in the UK .
Several conventional doctors have written to the PCTs requesting that cash should be spent on evidence based medicine and not unproved therapies like Homeopathy.

otherhealth
http://www.otherhealth.com/showthrea...0038#post70038
Homeopathy bad press again

Homeopathy is once again being slated by the media here in the UK .
Several conventional doctors have written to the PCTs requesting that cash should be spent on evidence based medicine and not unproved therapies like Homeopathy.

Please go to the BBC website and vote .
Address is
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5007118.stm

23rd May 2006, 03:39 AM	#1
tonyguitargoat New Blood Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 5	Is Britain coming to its senses about Complementary Medicine? From this morning's BBC news bulletin:- "Some of Britain's leading doctors have urged NHS trusts to stop using complementary therapies. They argue there is little firm evidence that techniques such as homeopathy work. And they say it is wrong that complementary methods are not subject to the same vigorous tests as orthodox medicines. However, many others - including the Prince of Wales - believe complementary medicine has a key role to play." PROFESSOR MICHAEL BAUM, UNIVERSITY COLLEGE LONDON says; "I am all in favour of treatments that make people better, and treatments that make people feel better, but there is the issue of evidence: how do we know that what we are witnessing is a real effect, or a placebo effect? It does not matter if the placebo is non-toxic and cheap, but if the NHS is spending good money on placebos at the cost of not providing effective medicines, then it does matter. I have been involved in the development of aromatase inhibitors (for breast cancer) for 12 years and we have had to cross every single hurdle. All those hurdles are right and proper. All we are asking for is a single standard. Let homeopathy jump over the hurdles that we have had to jump over to prove that aromatase inhibitors improve the outcome for breast cancer. Homeopathy can't do any harm, because there is nothing in it. But at the same time the University College Hospital London Trust has spent, I think, £20m on refurbishing the Royal Homeopathic Hospital. If that sum of money was spent on making available herceptin (for breast cancer) and the aromatase inhibitors then we could be saving, in my own health district, about 600 lives a year. We need clinical trials to demonstrate that these placebo therapies actually enhance quality of life. There have been umpteen overviews of all the available trials which fail to come up with any evidence that it does anything. "
tonyguitargoat New Blood Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 5

23rd May 2006, 03:44 AM	#2
Dragon Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,403	Ahem!
	__________________ "We must favour verifiable evidence over private feeling. Otherwise we leave ourselves vulnerable to those who would obscure the truth." Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason

23rd May 2006, 03:59 AM	#4
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	It's still pretty marginal, though, isn't it?
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

23rd May 2006, 04:04 AM	#5
Dragon Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,403	Currently Yes 38.78% (275 votes) No 61.21% (434 votes) P.S. Turn cookies off
	__________________ "We must favour verifiable evidence over private feeling. Otherwise we leave ourselves vulnerable to those who would obscure the truth." Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason

23rd May 2006, 04:05 AM	#6
Blue Wode Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,277	Yes it is RichardM, but what’s interesting is that it doesn’t seem to be representative of the 70% of the population who supposedly want sCAM to be available on the NHS.
	Last edited by Blue Wode; 23rd May 2006 at 04:08 AM.

23rd May 2006, 03:53 AM	#3
Blue Wode Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,277	In answer to your question, tonyguitargoat, the results (so far) of a poll being conducted by Sky News “Should the NHS fund complementary medicine?” look encouraging: Yes 41.92% (174 votes) No 58.07 % (241 votes) For anyone who wants to vote, here’s the link: http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...525168,00.html

23rd May 2006, 04:05 AM	#7
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,475	Originally Posted by richardm It's still pretty marginal, though, isn't it? It's better than New Labour did at the last general election. Now 61/39 in favour of "no".
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

23rd May 2006, 04:08 AM	#8
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,406	Originally Posted by richardm It's still pretty marginal, though, isn't it? Oh, I don't know. It would win you a general election! It's a lot better than I expected given the apparent level of woo out there, for example when there was a Saturday afternoon radio programme about it all, and the "yes" had it by a mile. I think it's a true bill too, as the BBC poll is almost the same - running about 43/57 in favour of sanity. The lieges must have been listening to the scientists for once. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. Last edited by Rolfe; 23rd May 2006 at 04:12 AM.

23rd May 2006, 05:32 AM	#9
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Originally Posted by Blue Wode Yes it is RichardM, but what’s interesting is that it doesn’t seem to be representative of the 70% of the population who supposedly want sCAM to be available on the NHS. True enough! And it's quite nice to see that it's not a "Yes!" landslide, as is all too frequently the case. Originally Posted by Rolfe Oh, I don't know. It would win you a general election!
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

23rd May 2006, 05:43 AM	#10
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,640	Hmm both hpathy and otherhealth have threads calling for people to vote.

23rd May 2006, 06:04 AM	#11
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,406	And we're not voting, are we not? I don't think you can vote twice on BBC polls though. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

23rd May 2006, 06:13 AM	#12
EHocking Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,417	Originally Posted by geni Hmm both hpathy and otherhealth have threads calling for people to vote. You don't actually think that this may be an organised attempt at vote rigging do you? Consider the two posts at those forums (fora?): hpathy Homeopathy Forums : Discussion vote for Homeopathy on the BBC website http://www.hpathy.com/homeopathyforu...?TID=4336&PN=1 Homeopathy is once again being slated by the media here in the UK . Several conventional doctors have written to the PCTs requesting that cash should be spent on evidence based medicine and not unproved therapies like Homeopathy. otherhealth http://www.otherhealth.com/showthrea...0038#post70038 Homeopathy bad press again Homeopathy is once again being slated by the media here in the UK . Several conventional doctors have written to the PCTs requesting that cash should be spent on evidence based medicine and not unproved therapies like Homeopathy. Please go to the BBC website and vote . Address is http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5007118.stm
EHocking Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,417	__________________ "A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite Forum Birdwatching Webpage