Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment - Page 5

sushil_yadav · 10th March 2010, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Sushil, I have asked this question before. You have yet to answer it. Please answer it now:

You have further stated that we have to drastically reduce the human population to what amounts to one eighth (12.5%) of what it is now.

When did I ever state that?

Show me when - show me where.

sushil_yadav

dafydd · 10th March 2010, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

Dredred,

Mr. Detective - yes there is a labour of 20 years behind this work. Do you have any problem with this?

You wasted 20 years on that crap? Sheeshh!

dafydd · 10th March 2010, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

Why do people breathe the same air which is available everywhere – which millions of other people are breathing?

Why do people drink the same water which is available everywhere – which millions of other people are drinking?

Why do people eat the same food which is available everywhere – which millions of other people are eating?

Why do people use the same [english] language that is being used at millions of other places?
sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

What are those nonsensical questions supposed to mean?

Pure Argent · 10th March 2010, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

You wasted 20 years on that crap? Sheeshh!

You haven't heard of George Simpson, have you?

dafydd · 10th March 2010, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Pure_Argent

You haven't heard of George Simpson, have you?

No,who he?

sushil_yadav · 10th March 2010, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

You wasted 20 years on that crap? Sheeshh!

Know something ? - it is your head that is full of crap.

What are your achievements in the last 20 years?

What have you done? -- Eat, Drink and make merry? - consume. consume, consume..... and destroy the ecosystems? chase money.... chase pleasure.....chase entertainment?

sushil_yadav

sushil_yadav · 10th March 2010, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

What are those nonsensical questions supposed to mean?

Why did you select and post a few sentences from my original post?

Why don't you post my complete post so that people will know the context in which I wrote the lines that you quoted?

If you read the complete original post you will know what the questions are about.

Sledge · 10th March 2010, 06:38 PM

So how do you plan to kill 87.5% of the world's population, and what are you planning to do with the bodies?

Little 10 Toes · 10th March 2010, 07:58 PM

Is there a reason why you did not answer my request? Is it too hard?

Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes

Here's a simple request for you sushil_yadav. Please define consumer goods and please list which ones we should get rid of.

I'll even make it easier for you. Please define "consumer goods" and give a few examples.

TimCallahan · 10th March 2010, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

When did I ever state that?

Show me when - show me where.

sushil_yadav

For the sake of argument, let's say that I misread what you were writing. So, to set the record straight, tell us now how long we have before it will be too late for a change and tell us to what degree we must reduce our present population.

Scott Haley · 11th March 2010, 12:22 AM

Some evangelists get to know the people that they want to teach. They learn to express their message in terms that their audience will understand. They make friends, so that potential converts will be willing to listen.

Another sort of evangelist is more antagonistic. He will shout religious jargon at the crowd, argue, and condemn them. Then he can walk away, satisfied that he's done his duty, and convinced that the people are stubborn fools who willfully reject the truth.

The first post in this thread is long and hard to wade through. Perhaps that's deliberate. When people ask clarifying questions, the response is mostly contempt. I see no effort by Sushil_yadav to change vocabulary or phrasing to get his audience to understand, as they clearly don't. The people who don't understand have tried to rephrase their questions. So far, they haven't managed to get any clarification, but kudos to them for attempting to communicate.

Sushil_yadav, do you really want us to understand what you're telling us?

dafydd · 11th March 2010, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

Know something ? - it is your head that is full of crap.

What are your achievements in the last 20 years?

What have you done? -- Eat, Drink and make merry? - consume. consume, consume..... and destroy the ecosystems? chase money.... chase pleasure.....chase entertainment?

sushil_yadav

You know bugger all about me,so get off your high horse,you self righteous,sanctimonious git.You've been living in a cave and consumed nothing? I raised 2 wonderful children,paid of my morgtage and worked hard.What have you achieved apart from wasting your time on a crackbrained,moronic ''theory''.

dafydd · 11th March 2010, 03:55 AM

[quote=sushil_yadav;5706668]Why did you select and post a few sentences from my original post?

deleted

dafydd · 11th March 2010, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

Know something ? - it is your head that is full of crap.sushil_yadav

As for having a head full of crap,I bow to you,the master.

TimCallahan · 11th March 2010, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

When did I ever state that?

Show me when - show me where.

sushil_yadav

Looking back on the posts and your "Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment" site, I found that on your website you stated that we only have 20 years in which to change. On this thread you have stated that we have to go back to a pre-1800 population level, which would mean the elimination of the majority of the human race.

Putting these two together, plus your statement that we have to eliminate more than 99% of all consumer goods, this means that we would probably have to get rid of most of our medical technology, along with everything else. That would mean that people like me would be doomed because there would be no more coronary bypass surgery, no more beta blockers or blood thinners. Had I not had bypass surgery in 1999 I would have died back then, at the age of 57. Is that what you want?

Again, if I have misstated your positions, please give me the following:

1) By how much do we have to reduce human population?

2) In what time frame do we have to do it?

3) What means do you see as practical for achieving this goal?

dafydd · 11th March 2010, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Looking back on the posts and your "Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment" site, I found that on your website you stated that we only have 20 years in which to change. On this thread you have stated that we have to go back to a pre-1800 population level, which would mean the elimination of the majority of the human race.

Putting these two together, plus your statement that we have to eliminate more than 99% of all consumer goods, this means that we would probably have to get rid of most of our medical technology, along with everything else. That would mean that people like me would be doomed because there would be no more coronary bypass surgery, no more beta blockers or blood thinners. Had I not had bypass surgery in 1999 I would have died back then, at the age of 57. Is that what you want?

Again, if I have misstated your positions, please give me the following:

1) By how much do we have to reduce human population?

2) In what time frame do we have to do it?

3) What means do you see as practical for achieving this goal?

I would have died in of peritonitis in 1988.Where is the advantage for mankind in Sushil's imaginary world?

Safe-Keeper · 11th March 2010, 11:42 AM

Has anyone pointed out to the OP that pre-industrial society may not exactly have been heaven, either?

Never get the idealization of native tribes living without houses, electricity or other modern goods. Sure, it looks idyllic in The Gods Must Be Crazy, but really, think about it... no painkiller? No modern childbirth technology? No modern hygienic standards? I just had a wisdom tooth removed by surgery, and as I lay there, almost dizzy from so much painkiller, it occurred to me how utterly excruciating surgery must've been back in the old days.

Not to mention, of course, that many of the pre-civilized people around the world are/were far less peaceful than they were portrayed to be. If I was a native American, I'd be fairly offended at having my ancestors portrayed as this bunch of hippies on an eternal camping trip.

Quote:

The destruction of ecosystems in Industruial Society is millions of times greater than that of any pre-industrial society.

We're also compensating for our damage at unprecedented levels. According to Lonely Planet Norway, the lumber industry in my country plants 50 million young seedlings annually. We're a country of 4.7 million people. According to my HS geography class, there's not been more trees in Norway in three thousand years.

You know, this doom-and-gloom, self-hating stuff is really starting to offend me. Sure, we live in a violent world, and I'm not denying we're harming "the planet" with global warming, emissions and whatnot. But guess what? We may also be living in the most peaceful century of all of human history, and it's getting more peaceful by the month. Sickness is being combated, we're healthier than ever, life expectancy is going up, we're talking about recreating extinct species through genetic manipulation, pesticides and fertilizer are safer than ever (perhaps except from the organic kind)... I could go on and on.

Want to live in pre-industrial society? Fine, move to an island without a written constitution, painkiller, modern diplomacy and pacifism, or the scientific method, and we'll see how we fare.

dafydd · 11th March 2010, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Want to live in pre-industrial society? Fine, move to an island without a written constitution, painkiller, modern diplomacy and pacifism, or the scientific method, and we'll see how we fare.

You can be sure that Sushil is enjoying all the benefits and conveniences of the modern world.

TimCallahan · 12th March 2010, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

I would have died in of peritonitis in 1988.Where is the advantage for mankind in Sushil's imaginary world?

I'm pretty sure he's stated that all the things that prolong human life add to overpopulation and all its miseries. Therefore, in his view, the advantage to mankind would have been that you would have died of peritonitis in 1988.

Fiona · 12th March 2010, 09:04 AM

No answer to any practical question yet?

dafydd · 12th March 2010, 10:28 AM

No,just the usual woo word salad.Sushil may not realize that he is just the latest in a long line of cranks who have graced this forum with their presence,we've seen it all before, nothing new here.

TimCallahan · 13th March 2010, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

No,just the usual woo word salad.Sushil may not realize that he is just the latest in a long line of cranks who have graced this forum with their presence,we've seen it all before, nothing new here.

Considering that Sushil is responding to horrible environmental destruction in his native India, I wouldn't entirely dismiss him as a crank. However, he does share with Dani'El the behavior of coming on like gangbusters with a radical assertion then suddenly turning up missing in action when the chips are down.

In Dani'El's case it was the failure of his prophecy that by a certain date God would zap the wicked cities of San Francisco and Los Angeles. When that didn't happen he vanished from the forum without either apology, admission of failure or rationalization. In Sushil's case, he has said on his website that we have only 20 years left for the human race to survive if we don't change our ways. He has also said we must eliminate over 99% of consumer goods and on this thread has said that we have to reduce world human population to its pre 1800 levels. This would, in effect mean the elimination of most of the human race in 20 years.

His response, when I challenged him on this was to ask where he'd ever said such things. I pointed out where he had said them, but also said that, if I had misstated his assertions, to please correct me.

Both dafydd and I have pointed out we'd be dead by now had it not been for the high technology of inductrial civilization, dafydd of peritonitis in 1988 and I to coronary heart disease in 1999. In my case, the coronary heart dissease wasn't because I smoked (I never have), drank too much or was morbidly obese. Rather, along with my two older brothers - and all three of us had differing lifestyles with respect to stress levels, diet, levels of exercise, history of smoking etc. - the main factor was heredity. Thus we all have bypass surgery n common.

I ask Sushil if my and my brothers' deaths from heart attacks and dafydd's death from peritonitis would be acceptable to him. I wonder if I'll get any response to this and the other questions from him.

sushil_yadav · 13th March 2010, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

I ask Sushil if my and my brothers' deaths from heart attacks and dafydd's death from peritonitis would be acceptable to him. I wonder if I'll get any response to this and the other questions from him.

Are you okay with the decimation of millions of species?

Are you okay with the killing of millions of animals for food everyday when the option of vegetarian food is available?

Are you okay with billions of tonnes of metal waste, plastic waste, eWaste, chemical waste on earth?

Are you okay with the killing of millions of acres of soil that has been covered with cement and concrete?

Are you okay with the killing of a few hundred thousand people in Iraq and Afghanistan?

sushil_yadav

Sledge · 13th March 2010, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

I wonder if I'll get any response to this and the other questions from him.

It would appear the answer is "No." sushil has no idea how to solve the issues he's raised, refuses to answer questions, and enjoys rambling on about anything and everything apart from what's being discussed. And this is the result of 20 years thought. Doesn't speak highly of his mental processes, does it?

TimCallahan · 13th March 2010, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

Are you okay with the decimation of millions of species?

Are you okay with the killing of millions of animals for food everyday when the option of vegetarian food is available?

Are you okay with billions of tonnes of metal waste, plastic waste, eWaste, chemical waste on earth?

Are you okay with the killing of millions of acres of soil that has been covered with cement and concrete?

Are you okay with the killing of a few hundred thousand people in Iraq and Afghanistan?

sushil_yadav

No, of course not. However, I don't see it as an either / or decision, that is that either I have to die prematurely or we have to decimate millions of species. I've already asked you if there isn't a middle ground between your insistence on the abolition of cities, along with more than 99% of all consumer goods (including the computer you're using - whether it's yours or someone else's) and the drastic reduction in population you seem to think is necessary.

So far, I haven't been able to get a straight answer out of you as to how you intend to reach your optimum state. Why don't you outline your program for us?

lionking · 13th March 2010, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

Are you okay with the decimation of millions of species?

Are you okay with the killing of millions of animals for food everyday when the option of vegetarian food is available?

Are you okay with billions of tonnes of metal waste, plastic waste, eWaste, chemical waste on earth?

Are you okay with the killing of millions of acres of soil that has been covered with cement and concrete?

Are you okay with the killing of a few hundred thousand people in Iraq and Afghanistan?

sushil_yadav

All fine by me.

TimCallahan · 14th March 2010, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

Are you okay with the decimation of millions of species?

Are you okay with the killing of millions of animals for food everyday when the option of vegetarian food is available?

Are you okay with billions of tonnes of metal waste, plastic waste, eWaste, chemical waste on earth?

Are you okay with the killing of millions of acres of soil that has been covered with cement and concrete?

Are you okay with the killing of a few hundred thousand people in Iraq and Afghanistan?

sushil_yadav

Reading over this post, it occurred to me that I really should answer each of these points individually.

1) I'm definitely against decimating species

2) I can't say that killing farm animals for food is necessarily wrong. However, I would like to see people eat a lot less meat, particularly in the form of beef.

3) As to the waste produced by industrial civilization, most of it can be recycled, thus reducing the need for more mining, oil drilling etc. That which can't be recycled can be safely contained in comparatively small areas. Just because something isn't being done, doesn't mean it can't be done.

4) I am definitely in favor of less concrete and asphalt. But then, I've already said I'd like to see a gradual reduction in population, which would accomplish this.

5) I don't see how the deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan relate to the environmental problem. Are you okay with members of the Taliban throwing acid in the faces of school girls, just because they're female and going to school? By the way, education of women - even if only to a level of elementary school - seems to be one the most effective ways of lowering family size and thus reducing population.

Now, I've answered your questions in some detail. Are you going to return that courtesy by answering the long standing questions I've asked you?

Safe-Keeper · 14th March 2010, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Are you okay with the decimation of millions of species?

No.

Quote:

Are you okay with the killing of millions of animals for food everyday when the option of vegetarian food is available?

Yup.

Quote:

Are you okay with billions of tonnes of metal waste, plastic waste, eWaste, chemical waste on earth?

Not relevant because "uncivilized" people can create just as much waste as "civilized" people. At least the civilized world recycles and builds purification plants.

Quote:

Are you okay with the killing of millions of acres of soil that has been covered with cement and concrete?

Cars don't run well in mud, so well, yes.

Quote:

Are you okay with the killing of a few hundred thousand people in Iraq and Afghanistan?

What on earth has this got to do with anything

? Are you suggesting people didn't wage wars until the industrial revolution?

Little 10 Toes · 14th March 2010, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

Are you okay with the killing of millions of animals for food everyday when the option of vegetarian food is available?

Talking in general terms, you find it wrong to kill animals by the millions, but have no worries about killing millions of plants?

Second time, please define your phrase "consumer goods" and please provide a few key examples.

dafydd · 15th March 2010, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Sledge

It would appear the answer is "No." sushil has no idea how to solve the issues he's raised, refuses to answer questions, and enjoys rambling on about anything and everything apart from what's being discussed. And this is the result of 20 years thought. Doesn't speak highly of his mental processes, does it?

Not a lot,no.

TimCallahan · 15th March 2010, 08:25 AM

I guess Sushil Yadev isn't going to do me the courtesy of answering my questions. Nevertheless, here they are again, rephrased slightly:

1) How are we to accomplish the radical change you say we must in a period of only 20 years?

2) What practical way is there to get our population down to pre-1800 levels in that time?

dafydd · 15th March 2010, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

What practical way is there to get our population down to pre-1800 levels in that time?

Put Sushil in charge.

Beerina · 15th March 2010, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

Who needs more science or more scientific proof. Science is not the solution - Science is the problem.

Sick and dying people, for example. It's astounding how much philosophy falls by the wayside when you lose your health and wish there were, magically, a cure.

Quote:

We don't need experiments to understand that our present lifestyle is destroying our Minds and Environment - the evidence is everywhere - left, right and center.

Please:

1. Evidence of "destroying Minds", and what does that mean w.r.t. life in general.

2. Evidence of "destroying Environment", and what does that mean w.r.t. life in general. And what does "not destroying Environment" mean w.r.t. life in general.

Quote:

The craze and fetish for science and scientific proof has mainly existed for the last 50 - 100 years.

As has the bulk of the skyrocketing increases in the longevity and quality of life, as measured by actual scientific measures.

TimCallahan · 15th March 2010, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

TWho needs more science or more scientific proof. Science is not the solution - Science is the problem.

Humans are incapable of making solutions. Humans have always created problems. All solutions of Man have actually been problems in disguise - they have led to bigger and greater problems. The quest for a solution is the biggest problem in itself.

sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

Two Questions (not that you're honest enough to answer either of them):

1) Does the irony continue to escape you that science made it possible for you to post your rants on the internet?

2) If we're not capable of making solutions, how can we do what you want us to do, since doing it would involve us making a solution?

Answer these questions, and answer the others I've asked you, or go soak your head in Israel in the company of Dani'El.

sushil_yadav · 18th March 2010, 11:00 AM

If ecosystems are in good shape then what are millions of environmentalists fighting for? Some of the members over here are so out of touch with reality that I would like to suggest them to kindly leave the comfort of this forum and visit some of the environmental forums - participate in the discussions and you will regain your senses in no time.

Safe-Keeper · 18th March 2010, 11:11 AM

Quote:

If ecosystems are in good shape then what are millions of environmentalists fighting for?

[/Strawman]

Quote:

Some of the members over here are so out of touch with reality that I would like to suggest them to kindly leave the comfort of this forum and visit some of the environmental forums - participate in the discussions and you will regain your senses in no time.

If "environmentalism" hadn't been hijacked by doom-sayers, organic food salesmen, and a general anti-human, anti-science attitude, maybe I would have. As it is, I've got others I feel I need to help out more than those people.

Little 10 Toes · 18th March 2010, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

If ecosystems are in good shape then what are millions of environmentalists fighting for? Some of the members over here are so out of touch with reality that I would like to suggest them to kindly leave the comfort of this forum and visit some of the environmental forums - participate in the discussions and you will regain your senses in no time.

How about you stay here and answer some basic questions?

Please give us your definition of "consumer goods" and some examples.

dafydd · 18th March 2010, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

If ecosystems are in good shape then what are millions of environmentalists fighting for? Some of the members over here are so out of touch with reality that I would like to suggest them to kindly leave the comfort of this forum and visit some of the environmental forums - participate in the discussions and you will regain your senses in no time.

What is irony in Italian?

TimCallahan · 18th March 2010, 05:14 PM

Sushil, now that you're back again, why not answer my question on how we are to get back to a pre-1800 level of population in 20 years? What's your plan? The only way I can see this happening is the short order extermination of the majority of the human race.

If I have misread what you have in mind, tell me in plain, simple language.

sushil_yadav · 19th March 2010, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

We're also compensating for our damage at unprecedented levels. According to Lonely Planet Norway, the lumber industry in my country plants 50 million young seedlings annually. We're a country of 4.7 million people. According to my HS geography class, there's not been more trees in Norway in three thousand years.

So green cover is increasing in this world? What a joke.

Is the surface area/ land area of earth increasing in size or what? We have a very small planet in which two-thirds of surface area is water - the remaining is land. Included in this small land area are deserts and frozen lands which do not have vegetation.

If the soil is fertile and it receives rain then forests, trees and plants will grow by themselves. This is how nature made all the forests in this world - they were not created by Forest Departments, Horticulture Departments of the governments or by MultiNational Companies.

Before the arrival of human species all the land in this world that could sustain forests and trees was covered with forests and trees.

Then arrived the heroic human species which cut down the forests, first for agriculture, and then for cities, for roads, for railways, for mining and extraction of raw material for industry, for setting up factories and industries.

Forests have been cut down to create grazing land for cattle that produce beef for the non-vegetarians.

Forests have been cut down to produce bio-fuel for this car-crazy world.

Forests have been cut down to procure raw material for thousands of consumer goods that are being produced today.

How can forest-cover increase in a consumerist Industrial Society? This is an impossibility.

Kindly watch the youtube videos that show forest destruction all over the world.

Kindly see the satellite pictures of worldwide forests taken 30 years ago and compare them with the satellite pictures of forests taken this year to know the reality.

sushil_yadav
http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/...pic.php?t=1796
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

10th March 2010, 06:08 PM	#164
Pure Argent Certified Castlevania Fanboy Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Clock Tower Boss Room Posts: 6,259	Originally Posted by dafydd You wasted 20 years on that crap? Sheeshh! You haven't heard of George Simpson, have you?
	__________________ "Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

10th March 2010, 06:24 PM	#167
sushil_yadav Scholar Join Date: May 2006 Location: India Posts: 62	Originally Posted by dafydd What are those nonsensical questions supposed to mean? Why did you select and post a few sentences from my original post? Why don't you post my complete post so that people will know the context in which I wrote the lines that you quoted? If you read the complete original post you will know what the questions are about.
	Last edited by sushil_yadav; 10th March 2010 at 06:26 PM.

10th March 2010, 06:38 PM	#168
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	So how do you plan to kill 87.5% of the world's population, and what are you planning to do with the bodies?
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

10th March 2010, 07:58 PM	#169
Little 10 Toes Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Who's house? Run's house! Posts: 1,458	Is there a reason why you did not answer my request? Is it too hard? Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes Here's a simple request for you sushil_yadav. Please define consumer goods and please list which ones we should get rid of. I'll even make it easier for you. Please define "consumer goods" and give a few examples.
	__________________ I'm an "intellectual giant, with access to wilkipedia [sic]" "I believe in some ways; communicating with afterlife is easier than communicating with me." -Tim4848 who said he would no longer post here, twice in fact, but he did.

10th March 2010, 10:04 PM	#170
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131	Originally Posted by sushil_yadav When did I ever state that? Show me when - show me where. sushil_yadav For the sake of argument, let's say that I misread what you were writing. So, to set the record straight, tell us now how long we have before it will be too late for a change and tell us to what degree we must reduce our present population.
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131

10th March 2010, 05:57 PM	#161
sushil_yadav Scholar Join Date: May 2006 Location: India Posts: 62	Originally Posted by TimCallahan Sushil, I have asked this question before. You have yet to answer it. Please answer it now: You have further stated that we have to drastically reduce the human population to what amounts to one eighth (12.5%) of what it is now. When did I ever state that? Show me when - show me where. sushil_yadav

10th March 2010, 06:01 PM	#162
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by sushil_yadav Dredred, Mr. Detective - yes there is a labour of 20 years behind this work. Do you have any problem with this? You wasted 20 years on that crap? Sheeshh!

10th March 2010, 06:05 PM	#163
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by sushil_yadav Why do people breathe the same air which is available everywhere – which millions of other people are breathing? Why do people drink the same water which is available everywhere – which millions of other people are drinking? Why do people eat the same food which is available everywhere – which millions of other people are eating? Why do people use the same [english] language that is being used at millions of other places? sushil_yadav Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment What are those nonsensical questions supposed to mean?

10th March 2010, 06:08 PM	#165
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by Pure_Argent You haven't heard of George Simpson, have you? No,who he?

10th March 2010, 06:20 PM	#166
sushil_yadav Scholar Join Date: May 2006 Location: India Posts: 62	Originally Posted by dafydd You wasted 20 years on that crap? Sheeshh! Know something ? - it is your head that is full of crap. What are your achievements in the last 20 years? What have you done? -- Eat, Drink and make merry? - consume. consume, consume..... and destroy the ecosystems? chase money.... chase pleasure.....chase entertainment? sushil_yadav

11th March 2010, 12:22 AM	#171
Scott Haley Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 562	Some evangelists get to know the people that they want to teach. They learn to express their message in terms that their audience will understand. They make friends, so that potential converts will be willing to listen. Another sort of evangelist is more antagonistic. He will shout religious jargon at the crowd, argue, and condemn them. Then he can walk away, satisfied that he's done his duty, and convinced that the people are stubborn fools who willfully reject the truth. The first post in this thread is long and hard to wade through. Perhaps that's deliberate. When people ask clarifying questions, the response is mostly contempt. I see no effort by Sushil_yadav to change vocabulary or phrasing to get his audience to understand, as they clearly don't. The people who don't understand have tried to rephrase their questions. So far, they haven't managed to get any clarification, but kudos to them for attempting to communicate. Sushil_yadav, do you really want us to understand what you're telling us?
Scott Haley Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 562

11th March 2010, 03:54 AM	#172
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by sushil_yadav Know something ? - it is your head that is full of crap. What are your achievements in the last 20 years? What have you done? -- Eat, Drink and make merry? - consume. consume, consume..... and destroy the ecosystems? chase money.... chase pleasure.....chase entertainment? sushil_yadav You know bugger all about me,so get off your high horse,you self righteous,sanctimonious git.You've been living in a cave and consumed nothing? I raised 2 wonderful children,paid of my morgtage and worked hard.What have you achieved apart from wasting your time on a crackbrained,moronic ''theory''.

11th March 2010, 03:55 AM	#173
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	[quote=sushil_yadav;5706668]Why did you select and post a few sentences from my original post? deleted
	Last edited by dafydd; 11th March 2010 at 03:57 AM.

11th March 2010, 06:57 AM	#174
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by sushil_yadav Know something ? - it is your head that is full of crap.sushil_yadav As for having a head full of crap,I bow to you,the master.

11th March 2010, 11:21 AM	#175
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131	Originally Posted by sushil_yadav When did I ever state that? Show me when - show me where. sushil_yadav Looking back on the posts and your "Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment" site, I found that on your website you stated that we only have 20 years in which to change. On this thread you have stated that we have to go back to a pre-1800 population level, which would mean the elimination of the majority of the human race. Putting these two together, plus your statement that we have to eliminate more than 99% of all consumer goods, this means that we would probably have to get rid of most of our medical technology, along with everything else. That would mean that people like me would be doomed because there would be no more coronary bypass surgery, no more beta blockers or blood thinners. Had I not had bypass surgery in 1999 I would have died back then, at the age of 57. Is that what you want? Again, if I have misstated your positions, please give me the following: 1) By how much do we have to reduce human population? 2) In what time frame do we have to do it? 3) What means do you see as practical for achieving this goal?
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131

11th March 2010, 11:36 AM	#176
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by TimCallahan Looking back on the posts and your "Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment" site, I found that on your website you stated that we only have 20 years in which to change. On this thread you have stated that we have to go back to a pre-1800 population level, which would mean the elimination of the majority of the human race. Putting these two together, plus your statement that we have to eliminate more than 99% of all consumer goods, this means that we would probably have to get rid of most of our medical technology, along with everything else. That would mean that people like me would be doomed because there would be no more coronary bypass surgery, no more beta blockers or blood thinners. Had I not had bypass surgery in 1999 I would have died back then, at the age of 57. Is that what you want? Again, if I have misstated your positions, please give me the following: 1) By how much do we have to reduce human population? 2) In what time frame do we have to do it? 3) What means do you see as practical for achieving this goal? I would have died in of peritonitis in 1988.Where is the advantage for mankind in Sushil's imaginary world?

11th March 2010, 11:42 AM	#177
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,116	Has anyone pointed out to the OP that pre-industrial society may not exactly have been heaven, either? Never get the idealization of native tribes living without houses, electricity or other modern goods. Sure, it looks idyllic in The Gods Must Be Crazy, but really, think about it... no painkiller? No modern childbirth technology? No modern hygienic standards? I just had a wisdom tooth removed by surgery, and as I lay there, almost dizzy from so much painkiller, it occurred to me how utterly excruciating surgery must've been back in the old days. Not to mention, of course, that many of the pre-civilized people around the world are/were far less peaceful than they were portrayed to be. If I was a native American, I'd be fairly offended at having my ancestors portrayed as this bunch of hippies on an eternal camping trip. Quote: The destruction of ecosystems in Industruial Society is millions of times greater than that of any pre-industrial society. We're also compensating for our damage at unprecedented levels. According to Lonely Planet Norway, the lumber industry in my country plants 50 million young seedlings annually. We're a country of 4.7 million people. According to my HS geography class, there's not been more trees in Norway in three thousand years. You know, this doom-and-gloom, self-hating stuff is really starting to offend me. Sure, we live in a violent world, and I'm not denying we're harming "the planet" with global warming, emissions and whatnot. But guess what? We may also be living in the most peaceful century of all of human history, and it's getting more peaceful by the month. Sickness is being combated, we're healthier than ever, life expectancy is going up, we're talking about recreating extinct species through genetic manipulation, pesticides and fertilizer are safer than ever (perhaps except from the organic kind)... I could go on and on. Want to live in pre-industrial society? Fine, move to an island without a written constitution, painkiller, modern diplomacy and pacifism, or the scientific method, and we'll see how we fare.
	Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 11th March 2010 at 11:54 AM.

11th March 2010, 03:13 PM	#178
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper Want to live in pre-industrial society? Fine, move to an island without a written constitution, painkiller, modern diplomacy and pacifism, or the scientific method, and we'll see how we fare. You can be sure that Sushil is enjoying all the benefits and conveniences of the modern world.

12th March 2010, 08:04 AM	#179
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131	Originally Posted by dafydd I would have died in of peritonitis in 1988.Where is the advantage for mankind in Sushil's imaginary world? I'm pretty sure he's stated that all the things that prolong human life add to overpopulation and all its miseries. Therefore, in his view, the advantage to mankind would have been that you would have died of peritonitis in 1988.
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131

12th March 2010, 09:04 AM	#180
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238	No answer to any practical question yet?
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238

12th March 2010, 10:28 AM	#181
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	No,just the usual woo word salad.Sushil may not realize that he is just the latest in a long line of cranks who have graced this forum with their presence,we've seen it all before, nothing new here.

13th March 2010, 01:19 PM	#182
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131	Originally Posted by dafydd No,just the usual woo word salad.Sushil may not realize that he is just the latest in a long line of cranks who have graced this forum with their presence,we've seen it all before, nothing new here. Considering that Sushil is responding to horrible environmental destruction in his native India, I wouldn't entirely dismiss him as a crank. However, he does share with Dani'El the behavior of coming on like gangbusters with a radical assertion then suddenly turning up missing in action when the chips are down. In Dani'El's case it was the failure of his prophecy that by a certain date God would zap the wicked cities of San Francisco and Los Angeles. When that didn't happen he vanished from the forum without either apology, admission of failure or rationalization. In Sushil's case, he has said on his website that we have only 20 years left for the human race to survive if we don't change our ways. He has also said we must eliminate over 99% of consumer goods and on this thread has said that we have to reduce world human population to its pre 1800 levels. This would, in effect mean the elimination of most of the human race in 20 years. His response, when I challenged him on this was to ask where he'd ever said such things. I pointed out where he had said them, but also said that, if I had misstated his assertions, to please correct me. Both dafydd and I have pointed out we'd be dead by now had it not been for the high technology of inductrial civilization, dafydd of peritonitis in 1988 and I to coronary heart disease in 1999. In my case, the coronary heart dissease wasn't because I smoked (I never have), drank too much or was morbidly obese. Rather, along with my two older brothers - and all three of us had differing lifestyles with respect to stress levels, diet, levels of exercise, history of smoking etc. - the main factor was heredity. Thus we all have bypass surgery n common. I ask Sushil if my and my brothers' deaths from heart attacks and dafydd's death from peritonitis would be acceptable to him. I wonder if I'll get any response to this and the other questions from him.
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131

13th March 2010, 08:04 PM	#183
sushil_yadav Scholar Join Date: May 2006 Location: India Posts: 62	Originally Posted by TimCallahan I ask Sushil if my and my brothers' deaths from heart attacks and dafydd's death from peritonitis would be acceptable to him. I wonder if I'll get any response to this and the other questions from him. Are you okay with the decimation of millions of species? Are you okay with the killing of millions of animals for food everyday when the option of vegetarian food is available? Are you okay with billions of tonnes of metal waste, plastic waste, eWaste, chemical waste on earth? Are you okay with the killing of millions of acres of soil that has been covered with cement and concrete? Are you okay with the killing of a few hundred thousand people in Iraq and Afghanistan? sushil_yadav

13th March 2010, 08:24 PM	#184
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	Originally Posted by TimCallahan I wonder if I'll get any response to this and the other questions from him. It would appear the answer is "No." sushil has no idea how to solve the issues he's raised, refuses to answer questions, and enjoys rambling on about anything and everything apart from what's being discussed. And this is the result of 20 years thought. Doesn't speak highly of his mental processes, does it?
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

13th March 2010, 10:08 PM	#185
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131	Originally Posted by sushil_yadav Are you okay with the decimation of millions of species? Are you okay with the killing of millions of animals for food everyday when the option of vegetarian food is available? Are you okay with billions of tonnes of metal waste, plastic waste, eWaste, chemical waste on earth? Are you okay with the killing of millions of acres of soil that has been covered with cement and concrete? Are you okay with the killing of a few hundred thousand people in Iraq and Afghanistan? sushil_yadav No, of course not. However, I don't see it as an either / or decision, that is that either I have to die prematurely or we have to decimate millions of species. I've already asked you if there isn't a middle ground between your insistence on the abolition of cities, along with more than 99% of all consumer goods (including the computer you're using - whether it's yours or someone else's) and the drastic reduction in population you seem to think is necessary. So far, I haven't been able to get a straight answer out of you as to how you intend to reach your optimum state. Why don't you outline your program for us?
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131

13th March 2010, 10:13 PM	#186
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,669	Originally Posted by sushil_yadav Are you okay with the decimation of millions of species? Are you okay with the killing of millions of animals for food everyday when the option of vegetarian food is available? Are you okay with billions of tonnes of metal waste, plastic waste, eWaste, chemical waste on earth? Are you okay with the killing of millions of acres of soil that has been covered with cement and concrete? Are you okay with the killing of a few hundred thousand people in Iraq and Afghanistan? sushil_yadav All fine by me.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

14th March 2010, 09:19 AM	#187
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131	Originally Posted by sushil_yadav Are you okay with the decimation of millions of species? Are you okay with the killing of millions of animals for food everyday when the option of vegetarian food is available? Are you okay with billions of tonnes of metal waste, plastic waste, eWaste, chemical waste on earth? Are you okay with the killing of millions of acres of soil that has been covered with cement and concrete? Are you okay with the killing of a few hundred thousand people in Iraq and Afghanistan? sushil_yadav Reading over this post, it occurred to me that I really should answer each of these points individually. 1) I'm definitely against decimating species 2) I can't say that killing farm animals for food is necessarily wrong. However, I would like to see people eat a lot less meat, particularly in the form of beef. 3) As to the waste produced by industrial civilization, most of it can be recycled, thus reducing the need for more mining, oil drilling etc. That which can't be recycled can be safely contained in comparatively small areas. Just because something isn't being done, doesn't mean it can't be done. 4) I am definitely in favor of less concrete and asphalt. But then, I've already said I'd like to see a gradual reduction in population, which would accomplish this. 5) I don't see how the deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan relate to the environmental problem. Are you okay with members of the Taliban throwing acid in the faces of school girls, just because they're female and going to school? By the way, education of women - even if only to a level of elementary school - seems to be one the most effective ways of lowering family size and thus reducing population. Now, I've answered your questions in some detail. Are you going to return that courtesy by answering the long standing questions I've asked you?
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131

14th March 2010, 11:45 AM	#188
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,116	Quote: Are you okay with the decimation of millions of species? No. Quote: Are you okay with the killing of millions of animals for food everyday when the option of vegetarian food is available? Yup. Quote: Are you okay with billions of tonnes of metal waste, plastic waste, eWaste, chemical waste on earth? Not relevant because "uncivilized" people can create just as much waste as "civilized" people. At least the civilized world recycles and builds purification plants. Quote: Are you okay with the killing of millions of acres of soil that has been covered with cement and concrete? Cars don't run well in mud, so well, yes. Quote: Are you okay with the killing of a few hundred thousand people in Iraq and Afghanistan? What on earth has this got to do with anything? Are you suggesting people didn't wage wars until the industrial revolution?

14th March 2010, 09:22 PM	#189
Little 10 Toes Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Who's house? Run's house! Posts: 1,458	Originally Posted by sushil_yadav Are you okay with the killing of millions of animals for food everyday when the option of vegetarian food is available? Talking in general terms, you find it wrong to kill animals by the millions, but have no worries about killing millions of plants? Second time, please define your phrase "consumer goods" and please provide a few key examples.
	__________________ I'm an "intellectual giant, with access to wilkipedia [sic]" "I believe in some ways; communicating with afterlife is easier than communicating with me." -Tim4848 who said he would no longer post here, twice in fact, but he did.

15th March 2010, 12:43 AM	#190
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by Sledge It would appear the answer is "No." sushil has no idea how to solve the issues he's raised, refuses to answer questions, and enjoys rambling on about anything and everything apart from what's being discussed. And this is the result of 20 years thought. Doesn't speak highly of his mental processes, does it? Not a lot,no.

15th March 2010, 08:25 AM	#191
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131	I guess Sushil Yadev isn't going to do me the courtesy of answering my questions. Nevertheless, here they are again, rephrased slightly: 1) How are we to accomplish the radical change you say we must in a period of only 20 years? 2) What practical way is there to get our population down to pre-1800 levels in that time?
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131

15th March 2010, 09:43 AM	#192
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by TimCallahan What practical way is there to get our population down to pre-1800 levels in that time? Put Sushil in charge.

15th March 2010, 09:53 AM	#193
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by sushil_yadav Who needs more science or more scientific proof. Science is not the solution - Science is the problem. Sick and dying people, for example. It's astounding how much philosophy falls by the wayside when you lose your health and wish there were, magically, a cure. Quote: We don't need experiments to understand that our present lifestyle is destroying our Minds and Environment - the evidence is everywhere - left, right and center. Please: 1. Evidence of "destroying Minds", and what does that mean w.r.t. life in general. 2. Evidence of "destroying Environment", and what does that mean w.r.t. life in general. And what does "not destroying Environment" mean w.r.t. life in general. Quote: The craze and fetish for science and scientific proof has mainly existed for the last 50 - 100 years. As has the bulk of the skyrocketing increases in the longevity and quality of life, as measured by actual scientific measures.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

15th March 2010, 05:47 PM	#194
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131	Originally Posted by sushil_yadav TWho needs more science or more scientific proof. Science is not the solution - Science is the problem. Humans are incapable of making solutions. Humans have always created problems. All solutions of Man have actually been problems in disguise - they have led to bigger and greater problems. The quest for a solution is the biggest problem in itself. sushil_yadav Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment Two Questions (not that you're honest enough to answer either of them): 1) Does the irony continue to escape you that science made it possible for you to post your rants on the internet? 2) If we're not capable of making solutions, how can we do what you want us to do, since doing it would involve us making a solution? Answer these questions, and answer the others I've asked you, or go soak your head in Israel in the company of Dani'El.
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,131

18th March 2010, 11:00 AM	#195
sushil_yadav Scholar Join Date: May 2006 Location: India Posts: 62	If ecosystems are in good shape then what are millions of environmentalists fighting for? Some of the members over here are so out of touch with reality that I would like to suggest them to kindly leave the comfort of this forum and visit some of the environmental forums - participate in the discussions and you will regain your senses in no time.