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Tags consumerism , globalization , industrialization , sustainability

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Old 7th November 2012, 05:22 AM   #281
Beerina
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I don't want to save the environment. I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.

Why? Because I love humanity and 30 trillion people, if living relatively free, will be inventing things and moving things forward at a rate you can hardly imagine.

To be opposed to this is some kind of bizarre, mass-murderous Ludditism.
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Old 7th November 2012, 06:28 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post
And what a great idea to continue destroying environment without which man will not even exist.....Humans are alive because of nature....Humans owe their very existence to animals, trees, air, water and land.

Industrial Society has existed for barely 250 years which comes to almost Zero Percent of Total Human Existence on earth....Humans have spent more than 99.99% of their time on earth in Non-Industrial Societies [Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian].....Industrial Society is an Anomaly....Only Non-Industrial Societies are sustainable.
Which group of humans would you like to exterminate first? Or is your misanthropy general?
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Old 7th November 2012, 09:16 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post
.

Yes seriously......Very seriously.

In pre-industrial society environmental destruction was localized and very small compared to environmental destruction of Industrial Society......It is like comparing the Lamp with the Sun.
So you admit that preindustrial societies can destroy the environment?
yes or no.
Quote:

In the absence of Industrial Machines only limited destruction of nature was possible......Agrarian Societies only destroyed some ecosystems on the land - forests and soil......Marine ecology was almost 100% safe in Agrarian Stage.
Not true over whaling and over fishing is not limited to industrial societies.
Quote:

No Agrarian Society poisoned the planet with trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.

Agrarian Society destroyed environment for Agriculture......Industrial Society has destroyed environment for Agriculture and Industry - Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Construction Industry, Transportation Industry, Recycling Industry.

Industrial Society has destroyed the entire planet - The Land, The Sky, The Oceans.....It has decimated millions of other species.

Industrial Society is millions of times more destructive than any pre-industrial society.....It has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems on earth.
.

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
really, what do you think north africa looked like before agriculture?
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Old 7th November 2012, 10:26 AM   #284
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I don't think we can go back. Even if we were to wipe out civilization as we know it and revert to a preagrarian culture, I doubt we could keep it that way. Say you have a crystal that's grown too big -- Even if you break off a huge chunk and throw it away, what's to stop the crystal from regrowing? Similarly, what's to stop future generations from reinventing our current problems?

I say we solve our own problems here and now, and move beyond them. I suggest that we promote the following reforms:

To decrease population:
- Free, worldwide quality education to university level.
- Free, dependable and safe contraception.
- No additional tax breaks for families with more than 2 children, and incentives for those with 1 child or fewer.

To heal the environment:
- Research to cut down the gap between production and waste. Rather than pumping oil and producing trillions of units of dollar-store housewares, let's figure out a way to produce clean energy and new goods from things we would normally chuck into a landfill.
- Promote a "less is more" esthetic in the media by favouring clean, simple design and quality over quantity.
- Tax incentives for people who work in occupations that don't produce mass quantities of waste.

If we do these things, I think we'll have a lot more knowledge workers (and a lot more knowledge), and not so many old tires in the city dump.
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Old 7th November 2012, 11:16 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Astreja View Post

To decrease population:
- Free, worldwide quality education to university level.
- Free, dependable and safe contraception.
- No additional tax breaks for families with more than 2 children, and incentives for those with 1 child or fewer.
.
Your post doesn't explicitly say "for men and women of all religions and all ethnic backgrounds and all national origins," but I am guessing that is what you have in mind. I don't have accurate details, but I am willing to estimate that 40 to 50% of all inhabited areas on the planet have men that would take up arms before agreeing to the plan.

In fact, there are some countries in which publishing your post would be considered a crime punishable by a jail sentence.
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Old 7th November 2012, 12:34 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Your post doesn't explicitly say "for men and women of all religions and all ethnic backgrounds and all national origins," but I am guessing that is what you have in mind.
Yup, that's exactly what I have in mind.

Quote:
I don't have accurate details, but I am willing to estimate that 40 to 50% of all inhabited areas on the planet have men that would take up arms before agreeing to the plan.
I think there's a chance we could deal with that problem by utilizing the same emotion likely to be at the root of that resistance -- Greed.

You see, we start by severely curtailing trade with regions that refuse to play nice. They can have the same nice stuff as us, but we make 'em pay through the nose. We get free education; they can come to our universities, but they have to pay. Ditto for everything we have that they want.

What I'm hoping for is a groundswell of memetic envy that topples the old mindset in favour of "Hey, what they're doing works. Let's try it here."
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Old 7th November 2012, 01:08 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Astreja View Post

You see, we start by severely curtailing trade with regions that refuse to play nice.
Who's ''we''?
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Old 7th November 2012, 02:01 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Who's ''we''?
Whoever does want to play. I think I'll start at home and work from there.
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Old 7th November 2012, 02:20 PM   #289
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Why, oh why, are we reviving this benighted thread?
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Old 7th November 2012, 03:53 PM   #290
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It's like a zombie pigeon on a two yearly cycle. It rises from the dead, does what pigeons do best all over the thread, and then sinks into oblivion until the next cycle begins.

If the thread starter engaged with other posters, or provided evidence for any of his ideas, the thread might become interesting.
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Old 8th November 2012, 12:51 AM   #291
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The one and only cause of environmental destruction is Industrialization.

Overpopulation and Overconsumerism are consequences / by-products of Industrialization.

Without Industrialization there would be no overpopulation and no overconsumerism.

Industrialization, Overpopulation and Overconsumerism happen together.......Industrialization, Overpopulation and Overconsumerism happen at the same time.

It is Industrialization that has led to a population of 7 billion.....Not overbreeding.

The entire world was overbreeding before Industrialization.....The entire world is underbreeding after Industrialization.

There used to be 5 - 15 children per family all over the world before Industrialization and yet world population reached only 1 billion till 1800 AD......After Industrialization the family size reduced drastically, most families are now having 1 - 4 children and yet world population jumped from 1 billion to 7 billion in just about 200 years.

If Industrialization had not happened world population would be less than 2 billion today.

India and China have large populations today because they started with larger populations thousands of years ago since ancient civilizations thrived in these regions.....What was the population of Europe and America 2000 years ago????.....Was it comparable with the population of India and China???? .....And once again, In the absence of Industrialization India and China would not be having large populations today.

If Industrialization had not happened, High death rate would have kept population of the world under control....Diseases caused by virus and bacteria would have kept population under control.....Feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control....Shortage of food and water would have kept population under control.....Harsh Climatic Conditions would have kept population under control - People would not have been able to live in regions that are too hot or too cold.

If Industrialization had not happened this planet would have been in very good condition today.....There would be no overpopulation, no overconsumerism and only limited urbanization.

A Non-Industrial Society would have destroyed some ecosystems on the land [Forests] but Marine Ecology [Oceans] would have been almost 100% safe today......Forest Cover would be much greater than what it is now....Millions of species on the land and in the sea would not have been decimated and would be thriving with very healthy populations......This planet would be free of Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.....The Oceans wouldn't have become Acidic, Warmer and Oxygen Deprived because of Industrial Waste.

It is consumerism that destroys environment, Not population.

A Hunter_Gatherer Society of 7 billion would have destroyed very little environment...... because it would have destroyed environment only for food......not for thousands of consumer goods and services.

An Agrarian Society of 7 billion would have destroyed very little environment [compared to an Industrial Society of 7 billion]...... because it would have destroyed environment only for food, clothing and shelter.......not for thousands of consumer goods and services.

[By the way, A Hunter_Gatherer Society would have never reached a population of 7 billion......An Agrarian Society would have never reached a population of 7 billion]

Environment has been destroyed by Industrialization/ Consumerism…….Not by Population/ Overpopulation.

Total World Population has not increased ……It has decreased……In fact total world population has been decimated.

When we talk about population we should take into account population of all animal species on earth, not just human population.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of Animal Species……Increase in human population has coincided with decrease/ decimation of millions of animal species.... The total burden of population on this planet has not increased…..It has decreased.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of other species......There was a time when the combined population of other animal species was much greater than present human population.....and we don't even need to include smaller animals in this count.....The combined population of big animals alone whose size and weight was equivalent to or greater than man was much greater than current human population of 7 billion.

The amount of food this animal population was eating was much greater than the food consumed by humans today.......Yet millions of animal species did not destroy environment and lived sustainably on earth for millions of years......because they destroyed environment only for food and not for thousands of consumer goods and services.

If animals had started a consumerist "Industrial Society" millions of years ago they would have destroyed all ecosystems millions of years ago.

The entire world has been trying to control human population for 50 years and these efforts should / will continue in future.....so where is the problem with population?????

It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to complain about overpopulation when it itself is the cause of overpopulation......It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to make attempts to control population while promoting Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP exponentially.
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Old 8th November 2012, 01:00 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
If the thread starter engaged with other posters, or provided evidence for any of his ideas, the thread might become interesting.
Discussion is good only if it is limited in content.

Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument is a Disease and Insanity of Industrial Society that invented the Printing Press, Radio, Television and Internet.

Billions of Pages of Discussion, Debate and Argument is another Harmful Waste created by Industrial Society just like Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.

.
.

What evidence do you need for my ideas???

The topic says - "Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment".

Do you need evidence for the mind??? ....... Industrial Society is surviving on prescription drugs, illegal drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, coffee and other mind altering chemicals.....Take these chemicals away and the whole society will collapse.

Do you need evidence for environmental destruction???......Industrial Activity has destroyed forests, decimated millions of species, poisoned the planet with billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous Industrial Waste, killed billions of acres of fertile soil with Cement, Concrete and Asphalt, turned oceans acidic and warmer, created oxygen deprived dead zones in oceans.

Last edited by sushil_yadav; 8th November 2012 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 8th November 2012, 02:34 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post

The topic says - "Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment".

.
We know that. We can read. Which group of humans would you like to see exterminated first?

Last edited by dafydd; 8th November 2012 at 02:37 AM.
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Old 8th November 2012, 04:16 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Which group of humans would you like to see exterminated first?
.

When did I ever talk about exterminating humans?????

Last edited by sushil_yadav; 8th November 2012 at 04:17 AM.
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:17 AM   #295
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It's all very well and fine to say "Industrialization bad, hunter-gatherer society good," but in practical terms I highly doubt humanity will be going down that road any time soon.

On a personal note, I refuse to revert to a hunter-gatherer culture. Absolutely flat-out refuse. I'm not going to stop buying clarinet reeds and start banging on hollowed-out tree trunks, although howling at the moon remains in the differential. My artist daughter would cheerfully defenestrate with extreme prejudice anyone who tried to take away her computer and her graphics tablet. My photographer best friend isn't likely to start mining her own silver and melting down sand to make glass photographic plates and lenses, either.

I have an acquaintance with an intestinal disease. If he doesn't get his medications he experiences a lot of pain. How will your plan improve his quality of life? Ditto for a friend with a thyroid problem: Getting rid of the source of her medication will hurt her, not help her. Do you also propose to rid the world of doctors and surgeons and dentists and anesthetics and antibiotics? I think that's a very bad idea.

Yes, we need to make changes to our way of life. No, de-industrializing the world is not the answer -- At least, not a long-term answer. One or two generations down the road, it'll just start back up again when the first neoprimitive technogeek reinvents the wheel, or fire, or a novel way of trapping, killing, skinning and cooking wild boars.

So, how exactly do you think we should implement the changes you want to see? Please give one or two concrete examples so that we can discuss them and perhaps even implement them to see if they work.
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:45 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post
...
The entire world was overbreeding before Industrialization.....The entire world is underbreeding after Industrialization.

There used to be 5 - 15 children per family all over the world before Industrialization and yet world population reached only 1 billion till 1800 AD......After Industrialization the family size reduced drastically, most families are now having 1 - 4 children and yet world population jumped from 1 billion to 7 billion in just about 200 years.

If Industrialization had not happened world population would be less than 2 billion today.

India and China have large populations today because they started with larger populations thousands of years ago since ancient civilizations thrived in these regions.....What was the population of Europe and America 2000 years ago????.....Was it comparable with the population of India and China???? .....And once again, In the absence of Industrialization India and China would not be having large populations today.

If Industrialization had not happened, High death rate would have kept population of the world under control....Diseases caused by virus and bacteria would have kept population under control.....Feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control....Shortage of food and water would have kept population under control.....Harsh Climatic Conditions would have kept population under control - People would not have been able to live in regions that are too hot or too cold.

If Industrialization had not happened this planet would have been in very good condition today.....There would be no overpopulation, no overconsumerism and only limited urbanization. ...
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:59 AM   #297
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I want to see other species destroyed. Record their DNA -- bag it and tag it.

Before you know it, computers will run chemistry, including full DNA expression and development. Let hobbyists run real-world zoos if they like.

Let's get a move on! Every undeveloped tech is millions of needless deaths! Quit slowing things down!
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Old 8th November 2012, 11:03 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post
.

When did I ever talk about exterminating humans?????
Your harebrained plan to stop all industry would cause millions to starve.
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Old 8th November 2012, 12:37 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post
The one and only cause of environmental destruction is Industrialization.
tell that to the trees and the species that depended on them when the Celtoi came and burned them down. tell that to all the ecosystems trashed over 2000 years ago in the middle east and north africa by non industrial societies. Tell that to all that native species of the Yellow River and Yangtze area that were wiped out 3000 years ago.
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Old 8th November 2012, 06:28 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
tell that to the trees and the species that depended on them when the Celtoi came and burned them down. tell that to all the ecosystems trashed over 2000 years ago in the middle east and north africa by non industrial societies. Tell that to all that native species of the Yellow River and Yangtze area that were wiped out 3000 years ago.
This issue was discussed very recently on the previous page.

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post
.

In pre-industrial society environmental destruction was localized and very small compared to environmental destruction of Industrial Society......It is like comparing the Lamp with the Sun.

In the absence of Industrial Machines only limited destruction of nature was possible......Agrarian Societies only destroyed some ecosystems on the land - forests and soil......Marine ecology was almost 100% safe in Agrarian Stage.

No Agrarian Society poisoned the planet with trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.

Agrarian Society destroyed environment for Agriculture......Industrial Society has destroyed environment for Agriculture and Industry - Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Construction Industry, Transportation Industry, Recycling Industry.

Industrial Society has destroyed the entire planet - The Land, The Sky, The Oceans.....It has decimated millions of other species.

Industrial Society is millions of times more destructive than any pre-industrial society.....It has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems on earth.
.

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

Last edited by sushil_yadav; 8th November 2012 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 8th November 2012, 06:36 PM   #301
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The story of Human Welfare on Planet Earth.

This planet was home to millions of species......Man has decimated all other species.....And people still talk about Human Welfare.

Millions of other species destroy environment only for food.....Man has destroyed environment for food, clothing, shelter and thousands of consumer goods and services.....And people still talk about Human Welfare.

Man has destroyed Forests, poisoned Rivers, Lakes and Oceans.....And people still talk about Human Welfare.

Man has turned the entire planet into a Toxic Dump by producing Billions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.....And people still talk about Human Welfare.

Man has killed billions of acres of fertile soil with Cement, Concrete and Asphalt....And people still talk about Human Welfare.

Height of Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality.

Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.

.
.

When man destroys the home of another man it is considered a Crime.

When man destroys ecosystems that are home to millions of species it is called Progress, Growth, Development.
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:05 PM   #302
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If you need a book's worth of explanation just to state your idea it's not worth reading.
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Old 9th November 2012, 01:14 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post
The story of Human Welfare on Planet Earth.

This planet was home to millions of species......Man has decimated all other species.....And people still talk about Human Welfare.

Millions of other species destroy environment only for food.....Man has destroyed environment for food, clothing, shelter and thousands of consumer goods and services.....And people still talk about Human Welfare.

Man has destroyed Forests, poisoned Rivers, Lakes and Oceans.....And people still talk about Human Welfare.

Man has turned the entire planet into a Toxic Dump by producing Billions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.....And people still talk about Human Welfare.

Man has killed billions of acres of fertile soil with Cement, Concrete and Asphalt....And people still talk about Human Welfare.

Height of Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality.

Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.

.
.

When man destroys the home of another man it is considered a Crime.

When man destroys ecosystems that are home to millions of species it is called Progress, Growth, Development.
I would like to tell you about the ancient Utopia of a pre-industrialized society. It did not exist. There were the lucky who survived and may have prospered and the unlucky who died and/or served. Do a little reading of the growth of civilizations, industrializations and social anthropology to get a more holistic understanding of what growth and progress was all about.
True, we are putting a great deal of pressure on the ecology and unlike Beerina, I don't generally believe that a golf course is more important than a wildlife park. However, I do not also hold industrialization responsible and technology progress responsible for whatever mess is there. In fact I feel these could actually help to clear all this up.
Your problem, like Beerina's is that you paint with too broad a brush.
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Old 9th November 2012, 01:45 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post
...When man destroys the home of another man it is considered a Crime.

When man destroys ecosystems that are home to millions of species it is called Progress, Growth, Development.
Interesting capitalisation you use, sushil.
Have you ever thought of joining Greenpeace?
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Old 9th November 2012, 04:34 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Interesting capitalisation you use, sushil.
Have you ever thought of joining Greenpeace?
pakeha,

Thanks for your post.....You have mentioned Greenpeace.....The fact and reality is - Environmental Organizations cannot save environment.

Discussion cannot save environment........Money cannot save environment......Technology cannot save environment......Environmental Organizations cannot save environment.......Activism cannot save environment.

It was the absence of all these things that saved environment for millions of years on earth.

Animal Species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment through discussion......They did not even have a language for discussing environmental issues.

Animal species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment with money ........They had no money.

Animal species, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society did not save environment with modern technology........They had no modern technology......It was absence of modern technology that saved environment in pre-industrial societies........Over-exploitation of ecosystems became possible only because of Industrial Machines.

Animal species, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society did not save environment with the help of Environmental Organizations or Activism........They had no environmental organizations.

Animal Species did not destroy environment for millions of years.......Hunter Gatherer Society destroyed very little environment during a million years of existence......Agrarian Society destroyed very little environment [compared to Industrial Society] over a period of 10,000 years.

There is only one way to save environment.......Destroy less......Minimize the list of things that are destroying environment.
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Old 9th November 2012, 04:37 AM   #306
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.................................................. ..........................
Story of Pseudo Environmentalism in Industrial Society.
.................................................. ..........................

A Serial Killer with endless supply of ammunition goes on the rampage in the city.....The Police are informed.....They arrive on the scene.....They do not try to stop or capture the shooter.....They do not try to kill or incapacitate the shooter.....They allow him to continue shooting......They give him full liberty to move around all over the city.

...

Edited by LashL:  Snipped for compliance with Rule 4. Do not copy and paste lengthy tracts of text available elsewhere. Instead, quote a short passage and cite a link to the source.

Last edited by LashL; 22nd December 2012 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 9th November 2012, 05:22 AM   #307
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tl:dr

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

Dear Group Members,

I want to share an article with you. This is about the link between Mind and Social / Environmental-Issues. The fast-paced, consumerist lifestyle of Industrial Society is causing exponential rise in psychological problems besides destroying the environment. All issues are interlinked. Our Minds cannot be peaceful when attention-spans are down to nanoseconds, microseconds and milliseconds. Our Minds cannot be peaceful if we destroy Nature.

...

Last edited by LashL; 22nd December 2012 at 07:01 AM. Reason: To save scroll wheels everywhere.
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Old 9th November 2012, 05:28 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post
Some people in this thread have asked what is the solution??.....What is the solution for saving environment??....What is your solution??

This question would make sense if environment had never been saved before....... This question would make sense if environment had never been saved in the past.

People are asking a question whose answer has been known for millions of years.

You save environment the way it was saved for millions of years.

There is only one way to save environment.......Destroy less.

Animals saved environment by destroying it only for food.

Hunter_Gatherer Society saved environment by destroying it only for food.

Agrarian Society saved environment by destroying it only for food, clothing and shelter.

For millions of years the list of things that destroyed environment never exceeded food, clothing and shelter.

You cannot save environment by destroying more of it.........You cannot save environment by destroying it for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

Production of thousands of consumer goods and services must stop immediately.

A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated or minimized.

The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.

.
.

There were two major switch-overs in human history.........Hunter_Gatherer Stage to Agrarian Stage........And Agrarian Stage to Industrial Stage.

Hunter_Gatherer Society was least destructive.......Agrarian Society was hundreds/ thousands times more destructive.......Industrial Society is millions of times more destructive.

The first switchover may very well be excused but not the second one.......When man switched over from Hunter_Gatherer Stage to Agrarian Stage he was not aware of the small size of our planet and the limited resources it contained........But when man switched over from Agrarian Stage to Industrial Stage it was sheer lunacy of people who started and promoted Industrial Activity all over the world despite having a fair knowledge of the small size of planet and the limited natural resources.

This planet is just 40,000 km in circumference.......It is very small......It can sustain a Hunter_Gatherer Society or Agrarian Society...... Not an Industrial Society.

Hunter_Gatherer Society destroyed environment only for food.......Agrarian Society destroyed environment primarily for food, clothing and shelter........That is the limit on this planet......This planet cannot sustain an Industrial Society which destroys environment for "thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Activity for production of "thousands of consumer goods and services" must stop immediately.



Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
A hunter-gatherer lifestyle will support at most a few million humans on this planet. What are the other 6 billion or so supposed to do?

Besides, I like flush toilets and hot showers, and don't have the knowledge or skills to survive as a hunber-gatherer, so screw your idiotic ideas.

ETA: Did the federal prison let the Unabomber have access to a computer? That might account for the OP just showing up every few years.

Last edited by CORed; 9th November 2012 at 05:30 AM.
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Old 9th November 2012, 05:38 AM   #309
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There would be one significant advantage to returning to a hunter-gatherer lifstyle: Idiot trolls would only be able to spread their nonsense by talking, and you could just punch them in the mouth to shut them up.
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Old 9th November 2012, 06:01 AM   #310
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Hi, sushil.
Are you advocating killing off of humans by starvation, disease and exposure to the elements?
It sounds as though you are.
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Old 9th November 2012, 06:58 AM   #311
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After reading through all this I have to say I disagree about humans not being able to repair ecosystems.

In a bay in my hometown there was once a large wetland area. It was originally almost fully destroyed to make way for a canel that was going to be out there, around the 1800's. Well some years ago the city started a project to help restore the wetlands here. Among other things they built what we call the carp dam. Since carp are destructive to wetland environs only benefitial fish go in and the carp stay out.
I gotta say because of this project the wetlands are coming back big time. In a few years they've gone from small patches to large areas of wetland. Then, not too long ago, we actually got beavers that moved into the area and are doing quite well. Before I'd have to travel for hours to get to an area with beavers in it and yet here they are, back and nibbling like crazy.

Simply reverting back to old times isn't going to fix anything.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:20 AM   #312
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Again, Sushil_Yadav, I refuse to play along with your scheme. I will not 'go back to just putting food on the table.' I want music and art and literature and cats and gardens and chocolate. I may moderate the quantities of the goods I acquire (in fact, I don't really care for Western big box stores and prefer a small number of good-quality items) but I will not, under any circumstances, go along with your mad scheme to wipe out civilization as we know it. I'd rather fix what is broken (hint: it isn't everything, just some things) and make it sustainable for future generations.

You also didn't address My point about how one is supposed to keep a society in a preindustrial state. As I said, the most likely scenario is that people will simply recreate technologies and industries at a later date.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:49 AM   #313
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CORed,

Where was the need for you to copy / paste my entire first post ??

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=307
.
.

I received a warning / infraction for a long post , none for you??

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=250

Last edited by sushil_yadav; 9th November 2012 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 9th November 2012, 09:05 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
A hunter-gatherer lifestyle will support at most a few million humans on this planet. What are the other 6 billion or so supposed to do?
You should read the posts carefully before asking silly questions.....The answer to your question was given in the very post that you quoted....Here it is once again :

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post
A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated or minimized.

The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.
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Old 9th November 2012, 09:13 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Astreja View Post
I will not 'go back to just putting food on the table.' I want music and art and literature .....
.
.

Art and Cultural Activities existed in every pre-industrial / non-industrial society we have had on earth.......In fact real Art and Culture existed only in pre-industrial / non-industrial societies.......In Industrial Society all activities become destructive, even Art and Culture........Industrial Society has built millions of buildings for Art and Culture which led to killing of millions of Trees and killing of millions of acres of fertile soil by cement, concrete and asphalt........Industrial Society has manufactured millions of tonnes of equipment for use in Art and Culture whose production by Industrial methods has led to destruction of environment, destruction of animals, trees, air, water and land directly or indirectly.........In Industrial Society millions of Artists travel for millions of kilometers all over the world by Rail, Road, Ships and Aeroplanes for Cultural Shows which again leads to destruction of environment....directly or indirectly.


Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
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Old 9th November 2012, 09:22 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post
This issue was discussed very recently on the previous page.
Lets see you made the following statement:

“The one and only cause of environmental destruction is Industrialization.”

and you counter

“Agrarian Societies only destroyed some ecosystems on the land - forests and soil.....”

Contradict your self?

I suggest you don't know the meaning of 'one and only'.
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Old 9th November 2012, 09:25 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post
.
.

In fact real Art and Culture existed only in pre-industrial / non-industrial societies.......
Real artists wear kilts.
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Old 9th November 2012, 10:32 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post
Art and Cultural Activities existed in every pre-industrial / non-industrial society we have had on earth.......In fact real Art and Culture existed only in pre-industrial / non-industrial societies...
Nonsense. IMO, art and culture are subjective and there is no objective "real" version of either.

And I don't want preindustrial music. I want electric guitars and keyboards, and I want My clarinet, and big bands playing Glenn Miller with brass and drums and woodwinds, and orchestras playing Beethoven's 9th with a live choir.

Now, if you'll excuse Me, I have to e-mail a reminder to Myself at home. I have to set the alarm for Way Too Early Saturday Morning, then load the snow tires into the car; buy some winter rims at Canadian Tire; and sit around reading Don Quixote on My e-reader till the tires are switched. And then, if it isn't snowing too hard, I'm going to take My mom to the mall, hang out with the local Humanist group on Saturday night, and spend Sunday driving around town to play Remembrance Day gigs.

Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Real artists wear kilts.
Yes, but do they put sugar on their porridge?
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Old 9th November 2012, 10:39 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Lets see you made the following statement:

“The one and only cause of environmental destruction is Industrialization.”

and you counter

“Agrarian Societies only destroyed some ecosystems on the land - forests and soil.....”

Contradict your self?

I suggest you don't know the meaning of 'one and only'.
.
.

Are we taking a literature / grammar class here???

Endless hair splitting is a disease and insanity.

When I say “The one and only cause of environmental destruction is Industrialization.” it means the one and only cause of largescale environmental destruction is Industrialization.

Every human society that has existed on earth has destroyed some environment....Hunter_Gatherer Society destroyed environment for food.....Agrarian Society destroyed environment primarily for food, clothing and shelter....Industrial Society has destroyed environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

Environmental destruction by Industrial Society is millions of times greater than that by Agrarian Society.
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Old 9th November 2012, 10:45 PM   #320
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Progress, Growth and Development (of the material kind) are / were primarily western concepts which were forced upon rest of the world.

Today the entire world is collectively involved in destruction of environment but the biggest role in this process of destruction was played by Western Civilization.

The West was the first to start Industrial Revolution and travel on the destructive path of Industrialization and Consumerism.......It then forced western lifestyle on its colonies in Asia, Africa and America whose cultures it had already destroyed during the era of Colonization.

The West took the entire world on the wrong path of Industrialization, Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP that has led to destruction of most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems.

The West did not have the foresight to know that a lifestyle based on loot, plunder and exploitation of natural resources would destroy the very things that created and sustained all life on earth for millions of years and ultimately lead to total destruction of biodiversity and ecosystems.

The West started Industrial Revolution and promoted Materialism because it focused on "Reason"......The East had focused on "Subjective Experience" for thousands of years which led to "Spiritual Development".

The West spent its time and energy on "reason" which led to Science, Technology and Industrialization / Material Development....The West has got very little knowledge of Spiritual Development.....Very little concept of peaceful states of mind / peaceful subjective experience.

The Aborigines of Australia would not have started the Industrial Revolution.

Red Indians / Native Americans would not have started the Industrial Revolution.

The Africans are very unlikely to have started the Industrial Revolution.

These cultures were quite happy and content with their Rituals and Spiritual Practices.

In India people had made efforts for Spiritual Development for thousands of years.....They developed methods and techniques for making the mind quiet, tranquil and peaceful......The knowledge of subjective experience led to the fields of yoga, meditation and pranayam [breath control].......Material Development has destroyed the planet, If any kind of development was needed it was Spiritual Development.

Human work should fulfill the basic needs of food, clothing and shelter.....It should not turn into overwork or destructive work.....If extra time is available to people and society after basic needs have been fulfilled it should be used for Spiritual Practices, Art and Culture.
.
.
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

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