Loose Change - Part II

Kiwiwriter · 24th May 2006, 09:15 AM

Split from "Loose Change" to try and make it more accessible. Part 1 can be found here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=53102

Posted By:Darat

I heard about this DVD from seeing it advertised on E-Bay for $1 a pop ad nauseum. I read the screenplay on a website that debunked it, and got very angry after reading it.

Stuff like "Loose Change" and all these conspiracy theories are a massive insult to the cops, firefighters, PA cops, and PA employees who died in that building on September 11. Through my wife, I know 85 of the PA guys who died in it. A high school classmate died in it (a big wheel in the PA), and so did the brother of another alumnus (and son of one of my teachers).

My pal Mike Sheridan was operations manager of the WTC during the 1993 blast. Not AN operations manager, THE operations manager. He had a key ring that would cost him $75,000 to replace. He could open every door in the building. He saved lives in 1993, then retired to Florida. But because of his post and importance in the union, he was in touch with all the PA people from top to bottom. He got to see the people he saved in 1993 die horribly in 2001, watching it from his lounger in Boca Raton.

Mike and I have discussed the WTC bombings many times, and he's made it clear that the conspiracy theories are horse manure on a grand scale. Yes, the building could be knocked down by planes full of jet fuel. Yes, it was knocked down by planes full of jet fuel. Yes, the official story is what happened. No, George Bush, the Mossad, the Masons, the Bilderbergers, and the World Wildlife Fund did NOT blow up the buildings and kill thousands of innocents to cover up launching a war, stealing gold, or imposing a Fascist dictatorship on the United States.

The real problem, as I see it, is that thanks to Vietnam, Watergate, and the scandals since then, we now have whole generations of intelligent people in the United States, who simply do not believe anything authority tells them. They are completely cynicized, regard everything but urban legends, conspiracy theories, and Comedy Central as being part of some grand conspiracy, and nothing but liars.

They don't trust anybody...except their psychic.

Regnad Kcin · 24th May 2006, 09:55 AM

Excellent post, Kiwiwriter. And welcome to the forum!

kookbreaker · 24th May 2006, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Huntsman

Explosives...mixed...with concrete?

Mixed?

Explosives?

*Huntsman shakes it off*

You know, I can mix a couple hundred eggs with concrete, but it doesn't leave me with anything useable in an omelet.

Someone actually may have said as much earlier in this thread, although it may have been in the 'Any Conspiracy Busters in here" thread.

In any case, he was impervious to the idea that mixing the two leaves you with something that is neither good for demolition or for structuring.

Gravy · 24th May 2006, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

Someone actually may have said as much earlier in this thread, although it may have been in the 'Any Conspiracy Busters in here" thread.

In any case, he was impervious to the idea that mixing the two leaves you with something that is neither good for demolition or for structuring.

That was "love" in the "Any Conspiracy Busters..." thread. If anyone reading this thread finds CTs to be obstinate lunkheads, try reading that one. It's absolutely brutal. geggy is a breath of fresh air and light comedy compared to "thesyntaxera" on that thread. In his first post, he gets almost everything wrong, despite having been "researching (not just debating)" these issues for four years. I wish I had found that thread before jumping into this stuff. The logic and evidence demonstrated by Year Zero, Kevin Lowe, kookbreaker, CurtC, MRC Hans, Manny, and others, combined with he moonbat claims of thesyntaxera, make for a good introduction to debunking of any kind.

eta link

aggle-rithm · 24th May 2006, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

Someone actually may have said as much earlier in this thread, although it may have been in the 'Any Conspiracy Busters in here" thread.

In any case, he was impervious to the idea that mixing the two leaves you with something that is neither good for demolition or for structuring.

I saw a special on the building of the Hoover Dam where the question arose of whether any workers were entombed in the concrete after accidentally falling in. An expert said, "Of course not! They would never let that happen. The bodies would have weakened the concrete."

You can imagine what tons of explosives would have done.

Hellbound · 24th May 2006, 11:32 AM

Not to mention that the explosives most likely would not work.

Scratch that, it would not work, not if there was enough concrete left to still function function as concrete.

I mean, these people apparently think that all you have to do to get plastic explosive is mix some smokeless powder with some Play-Doh^TM. It doesn't work that way.

The depths of ignorance never cease to astound me.

Correa Neto · 24th May 2006, 11:52 AM

What exactly are the CT's "proposals" that would work? Still have not seen any.

All I see is stupidity. Like the small nuke and the thermite "theories". The "theories" involving missiles and UAVs can be easilly debunked by reading info and specs readilly avaliable in defense magazines and sites.

Hellbound · 24th May 2006, 11:56 AM

Yeah, but there are levels of ignorance.

You know, the thermite claim shows an ignorance of explosives and structural engineering. The Concrete-explosives mixed claim shows an ignorance of chemistry, physics, explosives, structural engineering, and construction techniques.

Just seems to be a broader, deeper ignorance than the run-of-the-mill stupidity.

Correa Neto · 24th May 2006, 12:06 PM

You know, just like some woos, these guys seem to take ideas right up from the lower end of their digestive system... Never check, never care about considering feasibility. The explosives/concrete mix is an example. Note that besides the obvious problems related to strenght of the concrete, explosive location, concentration, and placement of detonators, it would imply WTC was meant to be destroyed since it was planned!!!!

Its stupid.

They spend days checking the latest CT buzz but never care to check, say, the specs of a sidewinder missile to see if it can do what they claim it did!!!

Its stupid.

Hellbound · 24th May 2006, 12:09 PM

Yep.

The majority of their claims could be disproven with 5 minutes on Google.

Heck, even with 10 minutes and a good encyclopedia, for most.

But, as much as they talk about how important it is, and how dedicated they are, and how the truth must be found...they don't do even the basic checking of facts. They don't even attempt to find unbiased sources. They look only for CT sights and CT papers, assuming that only those who already believe are objective. It's an odd case of begging the question. Beggint he question by proxy, maybe (they only look for or accept evidence from those who already agree with their pre-formed conclusion).

Ramooone · 24th May 2006, 12:49 PM

oh man, i hope this thread is a joke, if not then...i dont even know, im speechless

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...post&p=4627571

Overman · 24th May 2006, 12:57 PM

I am on page 13, I plan on reading this whole thing. I am currently argueing (I don't know why I am, but I feel compelled to) with a couple CTers on www.stereokiller.com

The first 5 pages were just about all I needed to refute many of their claims. I can't wait till I get to page 78!!(holy crap this is a monster thread)

Thanks for all the info everyone!

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if R & Q were eliminated.

Gravy · 24th May 2006, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Ramooone

oh man, i hope this thread is a joke, if not then...i dont even know, im speechless

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...post&p=4627571

Unfortunately not a joke, just another moron. This is from that guy's website:

Quote:

Expertise: really messed up ****, the illuminati, anunnaki, psychic vampirism, witchcraft, giving advice(more like showing options, but yea), i pretty much become a mild expert at anything i show an interest in .. i'm the type to research stuff hardcore for months at a time

But the funniest thing on that thread is when "Terrorcell" gets involved with a "correction."

Quote:

1) I hate David Icke.

2) If you're going to discuss the Annunaki then you need to do a little homework on them first. Long story short. 12th planet on a crazy orbit enters close to our planet every 1,200 or 12,000 years I forget. The Anunnaki are "God". They played scientist with the monkey DNA in order to create a slave race to mine gold for them. Gold is their oil. Thus this is the reason we have a gold based economy. They were worshipped by the Sumerians I believe.

3) If you really want to learn about the Annunaki then you need to visit Zecharia Sitchin and stay away from Icke.

Hutch · 24th May 2006, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Ramooone

oh man, i hope this thread is a joke, if not then...i dont even know, im speechless

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...post&p=4627571

Yeah, I have been following that myself--David Icke and Planet X and terrorcell (who started his post sounding quite sane) dragging in Stichin and somebody else mentioning Hovind---all in the same thread--

That one killed brain cells.

Arkan_Wolfshade · 24th May 2006, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Huntsman

Yep.

The majority of their claims could be disproven with 5 minutes on Google.

Heck, even with 10 minutes and a good encyclopedia, for most.

But, as much as they talk about how important it is, and how dedicated they are, and how the truth must be found...they don't do even the basic checking of facts. They don't even attempt to find unbiased sources. They look only for CT sights and CT papers, assuming that only those who already believe are objective. It's an odd case of begging the question. Beggint he question by proxy, maybe (they only look for or accept evidence from those who already agree with their pre-formed conclusion).

I'd disagree on the Google point. There is so much drek from CT sites cluttering search results it gives me a headache trying to do fact checking against their claims.

Hellbound · 24th May 2006, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade

I'd disagree on the Google point. There is so much drek from CT sites cluttering search results it gives me a headache trying to do fact checking against their claims.

Well, I limit most of my searches to .edu and .gov domains, so perhaps I miss a lot of that

dubfan · 24th May 2006, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Hutch

Yeah, I have been following that myself--David Icke and Planet X and terrorcell (who started his post sounding quite sane) dragging in Stichin and somebody else mentioning Hovind---all in the same thread--

That one killed brain cells.

Not there now. Following the link returns an error.

ETA: weird, you have to log in to see it. I wonder if "Alternative Theories" is viewable only to registered members. The skeptics forum was that way for a while, too.

Arkan_Wolfshade · 24th May 2006, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by Huntsman

Well, I limit most of my searches to .edu and .gov domains, so perhaps I miss a lot of that

Probably. I find that I end up with a search string of "<stuff i'm looking for> -<ct website> -<ct website> -<ct website> -<ct website> etc"

kookbreaker · 24th May 2006, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by dubfan

Not there now. Following the link returns an error.

Can woowoo's make a theory so goofy that even they can't stand it?

Hutch · 24th May 2006, 01:12 PM

....If they ever do, must be problems in giving a name, location, and birthdate--heck, some regulars here left because of the rule, can you imagine the CT'ers take on asking for that info???

Anyway, rather than keep this thread going-to very likely answer the same questions again--I would propose that 4-5 threads be started with titles much like a HS Debate for each of the major topics. For example:

Resolved: Flight 77 Hit the Pentagon

Resolved: Flight 93 Crashed in Pennsylvania

Resolved: Flights 11 and (sorry, I vapor lock) hit the WTC 1 and 2.

Resolved: WTC 1 and WTC 2 were brought down by demolition charges

Resolved: WTC 7 was destroyed by controlled demolition

This would at least quantify the arguments and focus them on the major points, rather than being all over the place like this thread and also will dispense with some of the odder ideas (Icke's reptiles, explosives in concrete)

Just a though if/when the LC'ers get approval.

Arkan_Wolfshade · 24th May 2006, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

Can woowoo's make a theory so goofy that even they can't stand it?

As a whole? No. On an individual basis? Yes.

Correa Neto · 24th May 2006, 01:19 PM

All I can get is a

Quote:

You do not have permission to view this topic

Message.

And checking LC forum main page I can not find a link to Alternative Theories. Quite possibly, its only for members.

CFLarsen · 24th May 2006, 01:26 PM

I'm there.

Hutch · 24th May 2006, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

I'm there.

Now they're for it; JREF has deployed its WMP (Weapon of Mass Posting)

Seriously, I think that is why the few skeptics posting there cause so much consternation--I mean, they reference a Danish newspaper, we have a bloody Dane to rebut it. They are quite unused to having people with knowledge and skills opposing them, IMHO.

pgwenthold · 24th May 2006, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Overman

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if R & Q were eliminated.

Hey, you took that from Mitch Hedberg's letter to his dad!

(I think it was Mitch Hedberg - there is another comedian named Mitch that is kind of similar, but in a cruder way - Ducks eat free at Subway!)

CFLarsen · 24th May 2006, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Hutch

Now they're for it; JREF has deployed its WMP (Weapon of Mass Posting)

Hehehe....

Originally Posted by Hutch

Seriously, I think that is why the few skeptics posting there cause so much consternation--I mean, they reference a Danish newspaper, we have a bloody Dane to rebut it. They are quite unused to having people with knowledge and skills opposing them, IMHO.

Yep, I noticed the flustered responses too.

Gee, someone could actually check what they claimed. And rebut it too, by pointing out that the story came from AP and not the Danish journalist!

One false story down, a million to go...

money · 24th May 2006, 02:42 PM

Wow, this thread is up over 100,000 views. That's pretty impressive...

Pardalis · 24th May 2006, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Ramooone

oh man, i hope this thread is a joke, if not then...i dont even know, im speechless

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...post&p=4627571

Forget about all the physical evidence and basic logic to try to convince anyone that LC is wrong. All we need to do is show anybody who is "on the fence" some of these LC threads and they'll realise how nuts these conspiracists are.

Gravy · 24th May 2006, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by dubfan

Not there now. Following the link returns an error. ETA: weird, you have to log in to see it. I wonder if "Alternative Theories" is viewable only to registered members. The skeptics forum was that way for a while, too.

I simply couldn't allow that thread to go on, so I psychically vampirically sucked it off the site.

Originally Posted by Hutch

Now they're for it; JREF has deployed its WMP (Weapon of Mass Posting)

Seriously, I think that is why the few skeptics posting there cause so much consternation--I mean, they reference a Danish newspaper, we have a bloody Dane to rebut it. They are quite unused to having people with knowledge and skills opposing them, IMHO.

That Ekstra Bladet article made as much sense to me as anything i've seen on the LC forum, and I don't speak Danish.

dubfan · 24th May 2006, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

I simply couldn't allow that thread to go on, so I psychically vampirically sucked it off the site.

If only. I just talked to one of the mods over there. The "Alternative Theories" Forum should be visible to non-members now.

Mr. Skinny · 24th May 2006, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by money

Wow, this thread is up over 100,000 views. That's pretty impressive...

Not really. 237.5 of those views are mine. We government shills have to monitor the thread closely, but only post the occasional disinformation needed to prop up the "Skeptics Theory (ST)" We ST'ers are sneaky that way!

Edited for mis-acronyming?

WildCat · 24th May 2006, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Hutch

This would at least quantify the arguments and focus them on the major points, rather than being all over the place like this thread and also will dispense with some of the odder ideas (Icke's reptiles, explosives in concrete)

Hutch, CT'ers cannot stay on topic, it's programmed into their DNA. I guarantee you their first post in the Pentagon thread would involve WTC 7.

hellaeon · 24th May 2006, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

Unfortunately not a joke, just another moron. This is from that guy's website:

But the funniest thing on that thread is when "Terrorcell" gets involved with a "correction."

Isnt the planet Tiamat, and expected every 3600 years?
I need to go and get my 12th planet book!

Beleth · 24th May 2006, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by geggy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beleth

:
What exactly would be investigated?

I mean, the physical evidence is pretty well gone. Wherever it went, be it China or Jersey or that warehouse they put the Ark of the Covenant, the physical evidence has all been moved and cooled.

Videos? That's being done constantly anyway.

Eyewitness testimony? Given that memories change after the fact, these aren't going to be of much use either.

Sekrit gubmint files? If they exist, we'll never see them. Not for another 50 years at least.

So what is left?

So in your opinion, NIST's soon to be released report of the collapsing of WTC7 will be inconclusive?

Videos of police and firefighter testimony of hearing explosives might be as useful of an evidence as videos of a plane hitting the pentagon?

If the fbi and the cia failed to connect the dots prior to sept 11, how were they able to name 19 hijackers within a week of the attacks? Simply by looking at the passenger manifest including the arab-sounding names? If these names are on the terrorist watch list, how were they able to get in and out of the US with the visa prior to sept 11?

Your questions don't answer my question.

What is left to investigate further?

Correa Neto · 24th May 2006, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by dubfan

If only. I just talked to one of the mods over there. The "Alternative Theories" Forum should be visible to non-members now.

Thank you.

You just showed me drinking alcohol is not the only way to burn neurons. This one really sucks...

NoZed Avenger · 24th May 2006, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

Unfortunately not a joke, just another moron. This is from that guy's website:

Expertise: really messed up ****, the illuminati, anunnaki, psychic vampirism, witchcraft, giving advice(more like showing options, but yea), i pretty much become a mild expert at anything i show an interest in .. i'm the type to research stuff hardcore for months at a time

I hope his next project is "grammar and punctuation." Geeze.

dubfan · 24th May 2006, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Correa Neto

Thank you.

You just showed me drinking alcohol is not the only way to burn neurons. This one really sucks...

It hurt me worse than it hurts you.

Arkan_Wolfshade · 24th May 2006, 08:47 PM

<Gomer Pyle>
Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!
</Gomer Pyle>

Quote:

Arkan_Wolfshade,
Your member account at Loose Change Forum has been temporarily suspended.

Your account will not be functional until Jun 24 2006, 02:31 AM (depending on your timezone). This is an automated process and you do not need to do anything to expediate the unsuspension process.

Board Address: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...orum/index.php

dubfan · 24th May 2006, 08:57 PM

Me too. Not sure what I did (or didn't do) to warrant the lesser punishment, though.

Quote:

Your account has been temporarily suspended. This suspension is due to end on May 26 2006, 08:29 AM.

ETA: looks like an IP ban, too.

Ramooone · 24th May 2006, 09:00 PM

The CT claim that silverstein made alot of money off the collapse of WTC 7 is completely untrue.

His lease only covered WTC 1 and 2. It was on the news today because of the new WTC7 opening up, they explained about how his lease and insurance worked and WTC7 was not part of it. if i can find the clip i'll post it.

24th May 2006, 09:55 AM	#2
Regnad Kcin Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The ol' Same place Posts: 4,729	Excellent post, Kiwiwriter. And welcome to the forum!
	__________________ My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.

24th May 2006, 10:08 AM	#3
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 6,580	Originally Posted by Huntsman Explosives...mixed...with concrete? Mixed? Explosives? Huntsman shakes it off You know, I can mix a couple hundred eggs with concrete, but it doesn't leave me with anything useable in an omelet. Someone actually may have said as much earlier in this thread, although it may have been in the 'Any Conspiracy Busters in here" thread. In any case, he was impervious to the idea that mixing the two leaves you with something that is neither good for demolition or for structuring.
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 6,580	__________________ My Webstore of Telescopes, Science Fun, and More: Spectrum Scientifics! Spectrum Scientifics Store Blog!

24th May 2006, 11:11 AM	#4
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by kookbreaker Someone actually may have said as much earlier in this thread, although it may have been in the 'Any Conspiracy Busters in here" thread. In any case, he was impervious to the idea that mixing the two leaves you with something that is neither good for demolition or for structuring. That was "love" in the "Any Conspiracy Busters..." thread. If anyone reading this thread finds CTs to be obstinate lunkheads, try reading that one. It's absolutely brutal. geggy is a breath of fresh air and light comedy compared to "thesyntaxera" on that thread. In his first post, he gets almost everything wrong, despite having been "researching (not just debating)" these issues for four years. I wish I had found that thread before jumping into this stuff. The logic and evidence demonstrated by Year Zero, Kevin Lowe, kookbreaker, CurtC, MRC Hans, Manny, and others, combined with he moonbat claims of thesyntaxera, make for a good introduction to debunking of any kind. eta link
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links Last edited by Gravy; 24th May 2006 at 11:18 AM.

24th May 2006, 11:28 AM	#5
aggle-rithm Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 6,270	Originally Posted by kookbreaker Someone actually may have said as much earlier in this thread, although it may have been in the 'Any Conspiracy Busters in here" thread. In any case, he was impervious to the idea that mixing the two leaves you with something that is neither good for demolition or for structuring. I saw a special on the building of the Hoover Dam where the question arose of whether any workers were entombed in the concrete after accidentally falling in. An expert said, "Of course not! They would never let that happen. The bodies would have weakened the concrete." You can imagine what tons of explosives would have done.
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

24th May 2006, 11:32 AM	#6
Hellbound ex-Huntsman Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: A Luxury Handbasket Posts: 5,622	Not to mention that the explosives most likely would not work. Scratch that, it would not work, not if there was enough concrete left to still function function as concrete. I mean, these people apparently think that all you have to do to get plastic explosive is mix some smokeless powder with some Play-Doh^TM. It doesn't work that way. The depths of ignorance never cease to astound me.
	__________________ "The overarching lesson that has emerged from scientific inquiry over the last century is that human experience is often a misleading guide to the true nature of reality."--Brain Greene, The Fabric of the Cosmos

24th May 2006, 11:52 AM	#7
Correa Neto Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Digging for Au somewhere in Brazil Posts: 4,839	What exactly are the CT's "proposals" that would work? Still have not seen any. All I see is stupidity. Like the small nuke and the thermite "theories". The "theories" involving missiles and UAVs can be easilly debunked by reading info and specs readilly avaliable in defense magazines and sites.
	__________________ Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! President Merkin Muffley

24th May 2006, 11:56 AM	#8
Hellbound ex-Huntsman Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: A Luxury Handbasket Posts: 5,622	Yeah, but there are levels of ignorance. You know, the thermite claim shows an ignorance of explosives and structural engineering. The Concrete-explosives mixed claim shows an ignorance of chemistry, physics, explosives, structural engineering, and construction techniques. Just seems to be a broader, deeper ignorance than the run-of-the-mill stupidity.
	__________________ "The overarching lesson that has emerged from scientific inquiry over the last century is that human experience is often a misleading guide to the true nature of reality."--Brain Greene, The Fabric of the Cosmos

24th May 2006, 12:06 PM	#9
Correa Neto Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Digging for Au somewhere in Brazil Posts: 4,839	You know, just like some woos, these guys seem to take ideas right up from the lower end of their digestive system... Never check, never care about considering feasibility. The explosives/concrete mix is an example. Note that besides the obvious problems related to strenght of the concrete, explosive location, concentration, and placement of detonators, it would imply WTC was meant to be destroyed since it was planned!!!! Its stupid. They spend days checking the latest CT buzz but never care to check, say, the specs of a sidewinder missile to see if it can do what they claim it did!!! Its stupid.
	__________________ Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! President Merkin Muffley

24th May 2006, 12:09 PM	#10
Hellbound ex-Huntsman Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: A Luxury Handbasket Posts: 5,622	Yep. The majority of their claims could be disproven with 5 minutes on Google. Heck, even with 10 minutes and a good encyclopedia, for most. But, as much as they talk about how important it is, and how dedicated they are, and how the truth must be found...they don't do even the basic checking of facts. They don't even attempt to find unbiased sources. They look only for CT sights and CT papers, assuming that only those who already believe are objective. It's an odd case of begging the question. Beggint he question by proxy, maybe (they only look for or accept evidence from those who already agree with their pre-formed conclusion).
	__________________ "The overarching lesson that has emerged from scientific inquiry over the last century is that human experience is often a misleading guide to the true nature of reality."--Brain Greene, The Fabric of the Cosmos

24th May 2006, 12:49 PM	#11
Ramooone Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: brooklyn Posts: 134	oh man, i hope this thread is a joke, if not then...i dont even know, im speechless http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...post&p=4627571
	__________________ "And I want to conquer the world, Give all the idiots a brand new religion"---Bad Religion "an astronomer tried to outwit a police officer by using the doppler affect, having been caught jumping a red light, the astronomer argued that the light appeared green to him because he was moving towards it and it blueshifted. the police office excused him of the red light ticket and promptly wrote him a speeding ticket."

24th May 2006, 12:57 PM	#12
Overman Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 2,607	I am on page 13, I plan on reading this whole thing. I am currently argueing (I don't know why I am, but I feel compelled to) with a couple CTers on www.stereokiller.com The first 5 pages were just about all I needed to refute many of their claims. I can't wait till I get to page 78!!(holy crap this is a monster thread) Thanks for all the info everyone! P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if R & Q were eliminated.
	__________________ 'The Evolution EP' on Amazon! Or iTunes!!!

24th May 2006, 12:59 PM	#13
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by Ramooone oh man, i hope this thread is a joke, if not then...i dont even know, im speechless http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...post&p=4627571 Unfortunately not a joke, just another moron. This is from that guy's website: Quote: Expertise: really messed up ****, the illuminati, anunnaki, psychic vampirism, witchcraft, giving advice(more like showing options, but yea), i pretty much become a mild expert at anything i show an interest in .. i'm the type to research stuff hardcore for months at a time But the funniest thing on that thread is when "Terrorcell" gets involved with a "correction." Quote: 1) I hate David Icke. 2) If you're going to discuss the Annunaki then you need to do a little homework on them first. Long story short. 12th planet on a crazy orbit enters close to our planet every 1,200 or 12,000 years I forget. The Anunnaki are "God". They played scientist with the monkey DNA in order to create a slave race to mine gold for them. Gold is their oil. Thus this is the reason we have a gold based economy. They were worshipped by the Sumerians I believe. 3) If you really want to learn about the Annunaki then you need to visit Zecharia Sitchin and stay away from Icke.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

24th May 2006, 01:00 PM	#14
Hutch International Arms Merchant and rollercoaster junkie Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: About 7 Miles from the Saturn 5B Posts: 5,586	Originally Posted by Ramooone oh man, i hope this thread is a joke, if not then...i dont even know, im speechless http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...post&p=4627571 Yeah, I have been following that myself--David Icke and Planet X and terrorcell (who started his post sounding quite sane) dragging in Stichin and somebody else mentioning Hovind---all in the same thread-- That one killed brain cells.
	__________________ Y'all got on this boat for different reasons, but y'all come to the same place. So now I'm asking more of you than I have before. Maybe all. Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten? They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave. Mal, Captain of the Serenity

24th May 2006, 01:01 PM	#15
Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Making Mytheon come to life Posts: 7,158	Originally Posted by Huntsman Yep. The majority of their claims could be disproven with 5 minutes on Google. Heck, even with 10 minutes and a good encyclopedia, for most. But, as much as they talk about how important it is, and how dedicated they are, and how the truth must be found...they don't do even the basic checking of facts. They don't even attempt to find unbiased sources. They look only for CT sights and CT papers, assuming that only those who already believe are objective. It's an odd case of begging the question. Beggint he question by proxy, maybe (they only look for or accept evidence from those who already agree with their pre-formed conclusion). I'd disagree on the Google point. There is so much drek from CT sites cluttering search results it gives me a headache trying to do fact checking against their claims.
	__________________ Amy: You should try homeopathic medicine, Bender. Try some zinc. Bender: I am forty percent zinc. Amy: Then take some echinacea, or St. John's Wort. Professor: Or a big fat placebo. It's all the same crap.

24th May 2006, 01:05 PM	#16
Hellbound ex-Huntsman Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: A Luxury Handbasket Posts: 5,622	Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade I'd disagree on the Google point. There is so much drek from CT sites cluttering search results it gives me a headache trying to do fact checking against their claims. Well, I limit most of my searches to .edu and .gov domains, so perhaps I miss a lot of that
	__________________ "The overarching lesson that has emerged from scientific inquiry over the last century is that human experience is often a misleading guide to the true nature of reality."--Brain Greene, The Fabric of the Cosmos

24th May 2006, 01:06 PM	#17
dubfan Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 452	Originally Posted by Hutch Yeah, I have been following that myself--David Icke and Planet X and terrorcell (who started his post sounding quite sane) dragging in Stichin and somebody else mentioning Hovind---all in the same thread-- That one killed brain cells. Not there now. Following the link returns an error. ETA: weird, you have to log in to see it. I wonder if "Alternative Theories" is viewable only to registered members. The skeptics forum was that way for a while, too.
dubfan Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 452	__________________ "I'd rather be Locked up with those throat slitting terrorists, then with JREF." -- e-dog@Loose Change "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into." -- Jonathan Swift

24th May 2006, 01:08 PM	#18
Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Making Mytheon come to life Posts: 7,158	Originally Posted by Huntsman Well, I limit most of my searches to .edu and .gov domains, so perhaps I miss a lot of that Probably. I find that I end up with a search string of "<stuff i'm looking for> -<ct website> -<ct website> -<ct website> -<ct website> etc"
	__________________ Amy: You should try homeopathic medicine, Bender. Try some zinc. Bender: I am forty percent zinc. Amy: Then take some echinacea, or St. John's Wort. Professor: Or a big fat placebo. It's all the same crap.

24th May 2006, 01:10 PM	#19
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 6,580	Originally Posted by dubfan Not there now. Following the link returns an error. Can woowoo's make a theory so goofy that even they can't stand it?
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 6,580	__________________ My Webstore of Telescopes, Science Fun, and More: Spectrum Scientifics! Spectrum Scientifics Store Blog!

24th May 2006, 01:12 PM	#20
Hutch International Arms Merchant and rollercoaster junkie Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: About 7 Miles from the Saturn 5B Posts: 5,586	A Suggestion when the LC'ers Get here... ....If they ever do, must be problems in giving a name, location, and birthdate--heck, some regulars here left because of the rule, can you imagine the CT'ers take on asking for that info??? Anyway, rather than keep this thread going-to very likely answer the same questions again--I would propose that 4-5 threads be started with titles much like a HS Debate for each of the major topics. For example: Resolved: Flight 77 Hit the Pentagon Resolved: Flight 93 Crashed in Pennsylvania Resolved: Flights 11 and (sorry, I vapor lock) hit the WTC 1 and 2. Resolved: WTC 1 and WTC 2 were brought down by demolition charges Resolved: WTC 7 was destroyed by controlled demolition This would at least quantify the arguments and focus them on the major points, rather than being all over the place like this thread and also will dispense with some of the odder ideas (Icke's reptiles, explosives in concrete) Just a though if/when the LC'ers get approval.
	__________________ Y'all got on this boat for different reasons, but y'all come to the same place. So now I'm asking more of you than I have before. Maybe all. Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten? They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave. Mal, Captain of the Serenity

24th May 2006, 01:14 PM	#21
Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Making Mytheon come to life Posts: 7,158	Originally Posted by kookbreaker Can woowoo's make a theory so goofy that even they can't stand it? As a whole? No. On an individual basis? Yes.
	__________________ Amy: You should try homeopathic medicine, Bender. Try some zinc. Bender: I am forty percent zinc. Amy: Then take some echinacea, or St. John's Wort. Professor: Or a big fat placebo. It's all the same crap.

24th May 2006, 01:19 PM	#22
Correa Neto Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Digging for Au somewhere in Brazil Posts: 4,839	All I can get is a Quote: You do not have permission to view this topic Message. And checking LC forum main page I can not find a link to Alternative Theories. Quite possibly, its only for members.
	__________________ Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! President Merkin Muffley

24th May 2006, 01:26 PM	#23
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,805	I'm there.
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

24th May 2006, 01:42 PM	#24
Hutch International Arms Merchant and rollercoaster junkie Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: About 7 Miles from the Saturn 5B Posts: 5,586	Originally Posted by CFLarsen I'm there. Now they're for it; JREF has deployed its WMP (Weapon of Mass Posting) Seriously, I think that is why the few skeptics posting there cause so much consternation--I mean, they reference a Danish newspaper, we have a bloody Dane to rebut it. They are quite unused to having people with knowledge and skills opposing them, IMHO.
	__________________ Y'all got on this boat for different reasons, but y'all come to the same place. So now I'm asking more of you than I have before. Maybe all. Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten? They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave. Mal, Captain of the Serenity

24th May 2006, 02:05 PM	#25
pgwenthold Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 8,464	Originally Posted by Overman P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if R & Q were eliminated. Hey, you took that from Mitch Hedberg's letter to his dad! (I think it was Mitch Hedberg - there is another comedian named Mitch that is kind of similar, but in a cruder way - Ducks eat free at Subway!)
pgwenthold Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 8,464	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

24th May 2006, 02:12 PM	#26
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,805	Originally Posted by Hutch Now they're for it; JREF has deployed its WMP (Weapon of Mass Posting) Hehehe.... Originally Posted by Hutch Seriously, I think that is why the few skeptics posting there cause so much consternation--I mean, they reference a Danish newspaper, we have a bloody Dane to rebut it. They are quite unused to having people with knowledge and skills opposing them, IMHO. Yep, I noticed the flustered responses too. Gee, someone could actually check what they claimed. And rebut it too, by pointing out that the story came from AP and not the Danish journalist! One false story down, a million to go...
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

24th May 2006, 02:42 PM	#27
money Muse Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 511	Wow, this thread is up over 100,000 views. That's pretty impressive...
money Muse Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 511	__________________ I am the first mammal to wear pants, yeah... - "Do the Evolution" - Pearl Jam www.stopsylvia.com

24th May 2006, 03:11 PM	#28
Pardalis Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 18,554	Originally Posted by Ramooone oh man, i hope this thread is a joke, if not then...i dont even know, im speechless http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...post&p=4627571 Forget about all the physical evidence and basic logic to try to convince anyone that LC is wrong. All we need to do is show anybody who is "on the fence" some of these LC threads and they'll realise how nuts these conspiracists are.
	__________________ "It's much better to change your point of view in response to reality than to insist reality has got it wrong because it doesn't share your point of view." aggle-rithm "In reality, the most astonishingly incredible coincidence imaginable would be the complete absence of all coincidences." John Allen Paulos

24th May 2006, 04:00 PM	#29
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by dubfan Not there now. Following the link returns an error. ETA: weird, you have to log in to see it. I wonder if "Alternative Theories" is viewable only to registered members. The skeptics forum was that way for a while, too. I simply couldn't allow that thread to go on, so I psychically vampirically sucked it off the site. Originally Posted by Hutch Now they're for it; JREF has deployed its WMP (Weapon of Mass Posting) Seriously, I think that is why the few skeptics posting there cause so much consternation--I mean, they reference a Danish newspaper, we have a bloody Dane to rebut it. They are quite unused to having people with knowledge and skills opposing them, IMHO. That Ekstra Bladet article made as much sense to me as anything i've seen on the LC forum, and I don't speak Danish.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

24th May 2006, 04:12 PM	#30
dubfan Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 452	Originally Posted by Gravy I simply couldn't allow that thread to go on, so I psychically vampirically sucked it off the site. If only. I just talked to one of the mods over there. The "Alternative Theories" Forum should be visible to non-members now.
dubfan Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 452	__________________ "I'd rather be Locked up with those throat slitting terrorists, then with JREF." -- e-dog@Loose Change "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into." -- Jonathan Swift

24th May 2006, 05:40 PM	#31
Mr. Skinny Alien Cryogenic Engineer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 7,004	Originally Posted by money Wow, this thread is up over 100,000 views. That's pretty impressive... Not really. 237.5 of those views are mine. We government shills have to monitor the thread closely, but only post the occasional disinformation needed to prop up the "Skeptics Theory (ST)" We ST'ers are sneaky that way! Edited for mis-acronyming?
	__________________ U.S.L.S 1969-1975 "thanks skinny. And bite me. :-) - The Bad Astronomer, 11/15/02 on Paltalk "He's harmless in a rather dorky way." - Katana "Deities do not organize, they command." - Hokulele Last edited by Mr. Skinny; 24th May 2006 at 05:59 PM.

24th May 2006, 05:51 PM	#32
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 23,599	Originally Posted by Hutch This would at least quantify the arguments and focus them on the major points, rather than being all over the place like this thread and also will dispense with some of the odder ideas (Icke's reptiles, explosives in concrete) Hutch, CT'ers cannot stay on topic, it's programmed into their DNA. I guarantee you their first post in the Pentagon thread would involve WTC 7.
	__________________ "My opinion is not uninformed there are just many things I have no clue about." -atavisms "Iran DOES have the right and good reason to attack Israel." -parky76

24th May 2006, 05:57 PM	#33
hellaeon Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: City of Burning Churches, Australia Posts: 1,493	Originally Posted by Gravy Unfortunately not a joke, just another moron. This is from that guy's website: But the funniest thing on that thread is when "Terrorcell" gets involved with a "correction." Isnt the planet Tiamat, and expected every 3600 years? I need to go and get my 12th planet book!
	__________________ Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. - Carl Sagan I don't exactly have a Phd in physics. I have something much better. Common sense. - pagan How does one change their mind without losing face after staunchly supporting a single point of view for years? It's quite alright, you are expected to maintain your opinion even if those responsible for 9/11 confess to their crimes. - Irony, MirageMemories style

24th May 2006, 05:59 PM	#34
Beleth FAQ Creator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Not in a cave Posts: 4,133	Originally Posted by geggy Quote: Originally Posted by Beleth : What exactly would be investigated? I mean, the physical evidence is pretty well gone. Wherever it went, be it China or Jersey or that warehouse they put the Ark of the Covenant, the physical evidence has all been moved and cooled. Videos? That's being done constantly anyway. Eyewitness testimony? Given that memories change after the fact, these aren't going to be of much use either. Sekrit gubmint files? If they exist, we'll never see them. Not for another 50 years at least. So what is left? So in your opinion, NIST's soon to be released report of the collapsing of WTC7 will be inconclusive? Videos of police and firefighter testimony of hearing explosives might be as useful of an evidence as videos of a plane hitting the pentagon? If the fbi and the cia failed to connect the dots prior to sept 11, how were they able to name 19 hijackers within a week of the attacks? Simply by looking at the passenger manifest including the arab-sounding names? If these names are on the terrorist watch list, how were they able to get in and out of the US with the visa prior to sept 11? Your questions don't answer my question. What is left to investigate further?
	__________________ Moderator, Skeptic's Guide to the Universe Big Fan, Stop Sylvia Browne

24th May 2006, 07:10 PM	#35
Correa Neto Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Digging for Au somewhere in Brazil Posts: 4,839	Originally Posted by dubfan If only. I just talked to one of the mods over there. The "Alternative Theories" Forum should be visible to non-members now. Thank you. You just showed me drinking alcohol is not the only way to burn neurons. This one really sucks...
	__________________ Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! President Merkin Muffley

24th May 2006, 08:38 PM	#36
NoZed Avenger Bitter Whiner Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 8,411	Originally Posted by Gravy Unfortunately not a joke, just another moron. This is from that guy's website: Expertise: really messed up ****, the illuminati, anunnaki, psychic vampirism, witchcraft, giving advice(more like showing options, but yea), i pretty much become a mild expert at anything i show an interest in .. i'm the type to research stuff hardcore for months at a time I hope his next project is "grammar and punctuation." Geeze.