BBC2 - two steps forward with Randi, one step back with NDEs

davidhorman · 5th February 2003, 01:37 PM

After the great Horizon programme that the BBC2 made and showed about putting homeopathy to Randi's test, I've now just sat through an hour long collection of anecdotes and half-arsed "scientific" explanations all about NDEs.

Susan Blackmore was there at least, but only to talk about the physiological parts of death that explain some of the things that occur - the feeling of joy, the tunnel.

The worst part was when a doctor started talking about quantum mechanics. There are these patterns at the quantum level, you see (hang on, isn't it all random down there?) and that allows the quantum information being processed inside the brain to "leak out", only it doesn't leak out everywhere, it "clumps together" because of quantum entanglement. And that's how you can leave your body

No mention of how this quantum-entangled mess can receive visual or audio input...

David

5th February 2003, 09:28 PM

Hi.

I haven't seen the program but it sounds sad.

Did they mention whether NDE images of light and tunnels and so forth are unique to Western (Christian) people and that other cultures report quite different experiences (if at all)?

I remember reading somewhere, long ago, that Japanese NDErs see images of rivers or of being swept away by waves or in floods.

I also remember hearing about studies on the dreams of pregnant women where they found that a high percentage dream about frogs or rain during the first trimester.

The brain is a wonderful thing.

5th February 2003, 11:15 PM

Is the moving through tunnel psychological?

I've always thought it could be explained by:

1. you see bright light, and as you close your eyes slowly, the light goes from dimmer to dark

2. as you open your eyes slowly, the light goes from dark to dim to bright

This gives the illusion of entering and exiting a tunnel.

atarian · 6th February 2003, 12:12 AM

The totally-blind-from-birth lady was interesting though.

She claimed never to have received any kind of visual input, not even light and dark, no visual element in dreams either. Yet when she had her NDE, she "saw" herself on the table.

Would have been interesting to hear if the things she reported seeing and hearing were accurate.

davidhorman · 6th February 2003, 12:52 AM

Susan Blackmore's explanation for the tunnel was how the visual bits of your brain are organised. There's a lot more brain stuff devoted to the centre of your vision that the sides, so if it's randomly stimulated (as occurs during death) what you get is a brighter spot in the centre of your vision where the most stimulation is occuring.

In answer to another question, no, there was no mention of anything other than Western NDEs.

David

Marvel Frozen · 7th February 2003, 08:41 AM

Here's a page I found that documents some NDEs in a Melanesian Society.

Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in a Melanesian Society

It mentions a number of differences from standard NDEs in "western" nations. Here are some of the differences mentioned:

In no case did a Kaliai look down upon his sleeping or dead body.

No one reported feelings of strong emotion or of floating in space.

No one said he experienced a feeling of exaltation shortly after death of before having his vision or dream.

No one reported hearing a loud buzzing or ringing sound or music at the beginning of his experience

There were no reports that people felt as though they were moving at great speed through a long, dark tunnel.

INRM · 9th February 2003, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidhorman
After the great Horizon programme that the BBC2 made and showed about putting homeopathy to Randi's test, I've now just sat through an hour long collection of anecdotes and half-arsed "scientific" explanations all about NDEs.

Susan Blackmore was there at least, but only to talk about the physiological parts of death that explain some of the things that occur - the feeling of joy, the tunnel.

The worst part was when a doctor started talking about quantum mechanics. There are these patterns at the quantum level, you see (hang on, isn't it all random down there?) and that allows the quantum information being processed inside the brain to "leak out", only it doesn't leak out everywhere, it "clumps together" because of quantum entanglement. And that's how you can leave your body No mention of how this quantum-entangled mess can receive visual or audio input...

David

Which doctor was talking about this Quantom Mechanic thing?

Can you please provide more detail?

I'm curious here...

-INRM

toto · 9th February 2003, 06:59 AM

The man talking about "quantum entanglement" on the programme was Dr. Stuart Hameroff, Professor of Anesthesiology and director of consciousness studies at the University of Arizona, Tuczon. We were told he was working with Sir Roger Penrose on a theory of consciousness.

toto · 9th February 2003, 07:18 AM

Here's a link:

http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/hameroff/

xouper · 11th February 2004, 11:34 AM

bump

5th February 2003, 01:37 PM	#1
davidhorman Muse Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 984	BBC2 - two steps forward with Randi, one step back with NDEs After the great Horizon programme that the BBC2 made and showed about putting homeopathy to Randi's test, I've now just sat through an hour long collection of anecdotes and half-arsed "scientific" explanations all about NDEs. Susan Blackmore was there at least, but only to talk about the physiological parts of death that explain some of the things that occur - the feeling of joy, the tunnel. The worst part was when a doctor started talking about quantum mechanics. There are these patterns at the quantum level, you see (hang on, isn't it all random down there?) and that allows the quantum information being processed inside the brain to "leak out", only it doesn't leak out everywhere, it "clumps together" because of quantum entanglement. And that's how you can leave your body No mention of how this quantum-entangled mess can receive visual or audio input... David
davidhorman Muse Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 984

5th February 2003, 09:28 PM	#2
spoonhandler Guest Posts: n/a	Hi. I haven't seen the program but it sounds sad. Did they mention whether NDE images of light and tunnels and so forth are unique to Western (Christian) people and that other cultures report quite different experiences (if at all)? I remember reading somewhere, long ago, that Japanese NDErs see images of rivers or of being swept away by waves or in floods. I also remember hearing about studies on the dreams of pregnant women where they found that a high percentage dream about frogs or rain during the first trimester. The brain is a wonderful thing.
spoonhandler Guest Posts: n/a

5th February 2003, 11:15 PM	#3
Guest Posts: n/a	Is the moving through tunnel psychological? I've always thought it could be explained by: 1. you see bright light, and as you close your eyes slowly, the light goes from dimmer to dark 2. as you open your eyes slowly, the light goes from dark to dim to bright This gives the illusion of entering and exiting a tunnel.
Guest Posts: n/a

6th February 2003, 12:52 AM	#5
davidhorman Muse Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 984	Susan Blackmore's explanation for the tunnel was how the visual bits of your brain are organised. There's a lot more brain stuff devoted to the centre of your vision that the sides, so if it's randomly stimulated (as occurs during death) what you get is a brighter spot in the centre of your vision where the most stimulation is occuring. In answer to another question, no, there was no mention of anything other than Western NDEs. David
davidhorman Muse Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 984

7th February 2003, 08:41 AM	#6
Marvel Frozen Thinker Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 237	Here's a page I found that documents some NDEs in a Melanesian Society. Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in a Melanesian Society It mentions a number of differences from standard NDEs in "western" nations. Here are some of the differences mentioned: In no case did a Kaliai look down upon his sleeping or dead body. No one reported feelings of strong emotion or of floating in space. No one said he experienced a feeling of exaltation shortly after death of before having his vision or dream. No one reported hearing a loud buzzing or ringing sound or music at the beginning of his experience There were no reports that people felt as though they were moving at great speed through a long, dark tunnel.
Marvel Frozen Thinker Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 237

6th February 2003, 12:12 AM	#4
atarian Student Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 48	The totally-blind-from-birth lady was interesting though. She claimed never to have received any kind of visual input, not even light and dark, no visual element in dreams either. Yet when she had her NDE, she "saw" herself on the table. Would have been interesting to hear if the things she reported seeing and hearing were accurate.

9th February 2003, 05:04 AM	#7
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490	Re: BBC2 - two steps forward with Randi, one step back with NDEs Quote: Originally posted by davidhorman After the great Horizon programme that the BBC2 made and showed about putting homeopathy to Randi's test, I've now just sat through an hour long collection of anecdotes and half-arsed "scientific" explanations all about NDEs. Susan Blackmore was there at least, but only to talk about the physiological parts of death that explain some of the things that occur - the feeling of joy, the tunnel. The worst part was when a doctor started talking about quantum mechanics. There are these patterns at the quantum level, you see (hang on, isn't it all random down there?) and that allows the quantum information being processed inside the brain to "leak out", only it doesn't leak out everywhere, it "clumps together" because of quantum entanglement. And that's how you can leave your body No mention of how this quantum-entangled mess can receive visual or audio input... David Which doctor was talking about this Quantom Mechanic thing? Can you please provide more detail? I'm curious here... -INRM
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490

9th February 2003, 06:59 AM	#8
toto Student Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 30	B.B.C. programme on near death experiences The man talking about "quantum entanglement" on the programme was Dr. Stuart Hameroff, Professor of Anesthesiology and director of consciousness studies at the University of Arizona, Tuczon. We were told he was working with Sir Roger Penrose on a theory of consciousness.
toto Student Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 30

9th February 2003, 07:18 AM	#9
toto Student Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 30	Here's a link: http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/hameroff/
toto Student Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 30

11th February 2004, 11:34 AM	#10
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189	bump
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189