IDF apologizes -- Gaza Beach Tragedy

webfusion · 9th June 2006, 09:48 AM

The Israel Defense Forces apologized for the incident, saying it "regretted the strike on innocents."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nat...orld-headlines

Lots of confusion, lots of battlefield "fog" and the media is overwhelmed with data from different sources, making their reporting somewhat diffcult to follow and there's not a clear overall situation right now.

In any case, the IDF is on the highest alert and the Palestinians are in a real rage ---
"The Zionists have opened the gates of hell ..." said PRC spokesman Abu Abir

It is still uncertain that the IDF was in any way responsible for this incident.
An investigation is underway...

shemp · 9th June 2006, 10:07 AM

Well golly gee, they apologized, so what's the big deal?

Kopji · 9th June 2006, 10:09 AM

Yeah, I have symbols on the mind this morning; how powerful they are.

The scenes being played over and over on the TV are a tragically screaming little girl whose father was killed on the beach juxtaposed against stories from the World Cup (go Costa Rica!!!).

Why I don't watch more tv...

geni · 9th June 2006, 10:12 AM

Unfortunate timeing

shemp · 9th June 2006, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Unfortunate timeing

Yeah if you're gonna kill innocent people try to time it better, like wait for when a tsunami strikes or something!

webfusion · 9th June 2006, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Well golly gee, they apologized, so what's the big deal?

...And evacuated the wounded to hospitals in Israel for treatment. They might even pay for the hospital bills
----------------

webfusion · 9th June 2006, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Unfortunate timeing

How so?

Just a few minutes ago, IDF sources said that a preliminary investigation showed there had been no shelling from land or sea.
Major General Yoav Galant, head of Israel's southern command, said on Friday evening that the army is looking into the circumstances of the explosion.
"It is not our intention to harm innocent civilians. We are investigating the incident in order to try to clarify what happened here," he said, adding that the IDF is aware of areas in which civilians are present, and that military gunners are ordered to prevent firing on these areas.

One possibility under examination is that a Qassem rocket landed "short" after being fired by a crew farther south along the beach ---

geni · 9th June 2006, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

How so?

Hammas can use it PR wise.

Quote:

Just a few minutes ago, IDF sources said that a preliminary investigation showed there had been no shelling from land or sea.
Major General Yoav Galant, head of Israel's southern command, said on Friday evening that the army is looking into the circumstances of the explosion.
"It is not our intention to harm innocent civilians. We are investigating the incident in order to try to clarify what happened here," he said, adding that the IDF is aware of areas in which civilians are present, and that military gunners are ordered to prevent firing on these areas.

One possibility under examination is that a Qassem rocket landed "short" after being fired by a crew farther south along the beach ---

So suspiciously unfortunate timing.

webfusion · 9th June 2006, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Hammas can use it PR wise.

They just had one of their senior members killed and his funeral was the largest in Gaza since the death of Rantisi.
What further PR benefit do they obtain from the beach?
Are you trying to say their approval ratings need help and Israel is helping?

I'm missing your point...

andyandy · 9th June 2006, 11:37 AM

breaking news on the BBC....hamas to end their ceasefire.....

*sigh*

Jocko · 9th June 2006, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

...And evacuated the wounded to hospitals in Israel for treatment. They might even pay for the hospital bills
----------------

Now, now, you're acting like the PA never lends assistance when there are suicide bombers, rocket launchings or mortar shells lobbed into civilian Israeli areas.

geni · 9th June 2006, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

They just had one of their senior members killed and his funeral was the largest in Gaza since the death of Rantisi.

Expected show of strength. However it is fairly easy for people to rationise militants being killed

Quote:

What further PR benefit do they obtain from the beach?

Oh noes the zionist entertiy is killing inocent women and children. They must have the vengance that only we (hammas) can deliver.

That kind of thing. Hammas has always had serious oposition to israel as a serious selling point.

Quote:

Are you trying to say their approval ratings need help and Israel is helping?

According to the BBC it is not yet clear if Isreali ground based artierly was involved or not.

webfusion · 9th June 2006, 04:13 PM

Quote:

jocko offers:
Now, now, you're acting like the PA never lends assistance when there are suicide bombers, rocket launchings or mortar shells lobbed into civilian Israeli areas.

You mean the candies and sweets they hand out?

Oh wait, nevermind...

Art Vandelay · 9th June 2006, 11:38 PM

How can you start an avalanche and then blame the rocks for falling?
Regardless of whether the IDF is directly responsible, the Palestinians are ultimately responsible.

burrahobbit · 10th June 2006, 12:13 AM

Random shelling of "possible" sites from where Quassam rockets may be launched and may disturb Israeli rest.

Only Palestinans are responsible.

Obviously some definition of responsible I do not understand.

Both sides are responsible. Until both stop behaving like children nothing will change.

webfusion · 10th June 2006, 05:38 AM

Excuse us for wishing to live in peace.

In regards to this incident on the beach, I am skeptical of the fatalities and casualties being the fault of the IDF. I'll wait until some official report of the ongoing investigation in the next few days. If the shells were indeed wayward rounds that landed off-target, then that will be shown. In any case, I cannot sit here and envision that IDF gunners were aiming for the beach, with intent to inflict civilians harm. That does not seem plausible. The IDF itself denies that this was their aim.

Meanwhile, in the gaza strip, the Tadiyeh (calm) is over, officially:

HAMAS claimed Saturday morning it had fired at least 15 Qassam rockets at Israel overnight Friday and Saturday morning, for first time in 16 months. Five Qassams launches were detected overnight, although no landing sites were identified and no damage was reported.

IDF sources said most of the rockets appeared to have landed inside the Gaza Strip. In the Jabalya refugee camp, five Palestinians were injured on Saturday when a Qassam meant for Israel landed in the camp instead.

And if those people had been killed by the Qassems -- it is Israel's fault!

Quote:

Both sides are responsible.

No, burrahobbit, they are not equally responsible.
Israel has a responsibility to prevent wanton and random terror against it's citizens.
The Palestinians have a responsibility to end their terror campaign and disarm!

a_unique_person · 10th June 2006, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

No, burrahobbit, they are not equally responsible.
Israel has a responsibility to prevent wanton and random terror against it's citizens.
The Palestinians have a responsibility to end their terror campaign and disarm!

Do the Palestinians have a responsibility to resist a military occupation?

Mycroft · 10th June 2006, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Do the Palestinians have a responsibility to resist a military occupation?

They have a responsibility to do their part to make peace with the Israelis.

geni · 10th June 2006, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

Excuse us for wishing to live in peace.

Low level killing won't atchive that.

Quote:

No, burrahobbit, they are not equally responsible.

If it was an israeli stike then who pulled the trigger?

Quote:

Israel has a responsibility to prevent wanton and random terror against it's citizens.

Logicaly so does the PA. No that they have a hope in hell of suceeding.

Quote:

The Palestinians have a responsibility to end their terror campaign and disarm!

So does isreal. Both sides are trying to use force and terror to atchive thier objectives. Both sides are useing the wrong method.

WildCat · 10th June 2006, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by geni

So does isreal. Both sides are trying to use force and terror to atchive thier objectives. Both sides are useing the wrong method.

Yes how terrible of Israel to terrorize those poor Palestinian terrorists by firing back at them...

geni · 10th June 2006, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Yes how terrible of Israel to terrorize those poor Palestinian terrorists by firing back at them...

Problem is they don't just kill terroists. In any cases killing 2 or 3 a day really isn't going to have much effect.

WildCat · 10th June 2006, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Problem is they don't just kill terroists. In any cases killing 2 or 3 a day really isn't going to have much effect.

That's quite an opinion you have. I happen to think there would be a far greater number of Qassam attacks if Israel didn't shoot back, and simply ignored them as you appear to be suggesting. You may only kill 2 or 3, but you also stop the attack from continuing.

It would be nice if some weapon existed that only killed combatants, but that technology isn't on the horizon yet.

Skeptic · 10th June 2006, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

In any case, the IDF is on the highest alert and the Palestinians are in a real rage ---
"The Zionists have opened the gates of hell ..." said PRC spokesman Abu Abir

What, again? If I remember correctly Palestinian spokesmen said the zionists "opened the gate of hell" every time they attacked inside the PA for the last, oh, six years or so.

Skeptic · 10th June 2006, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Problem is they don't just kill terroists. In any cases killing 2 or 3 a day really isn't going to have much effect.

I fail to see why that should be a problem for israel.

After all, the daily Kassam rocket barrages, whose purpose is explicitly to kill as many civilian jews as possible, hardly changed your views about the Palestinians' goal or the essential justice of their position.

So why exactly should israel kiling civilians change your view about israel one way or the other? Obviously you don't think killing civilans is any cause for concern.

Skeptic · 10th June 2006, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Random shelling of "possible" sites from where Quassam rockets may be launched and may disturb Israeli rest.

Change that to "may kill israeli children" and you got it about right.

As for "both side are responsible", hint: only ONE side's OFFICIAL AND ACTUAL goal is to kill or expel all those on the other side into the sea by any means necessary, and only ONE side carries out deliberate and random indiscriminate attacks on the other with the expressed purpose as killing as many children as possible.

geni · 10th June 2006, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

That's quite an opinion you have. I happen to think there would be a far greater number of Qassam attacks if Israel didn't shoot back, and simply ignored them as you appear to be suggesting. You may only kill 2 or 3, but you also stop the attack from continuing.

No you don't.

geni · 10th June 2006, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

I fail to see why that should be a problem for israel.

Because you have to do it basicaly forever. The last 50 years of history shows that the tactics israel is useing don't work.

Quote:

After all, the daily Kassam rocket barrages, whose purpose is explicitly to kill as many civilian jews as possible, hardly changed your views about the Palestinians' goal or the essential justice of their position.

Oh it's a stupid militry tactic is you are useing it against israel but it could be effective if you tried it against other groups.

Quote:

So why exactly should israel kiling civilians change your view about israel one way or the other?

Never said it did.

Skeptic · 10th June 2006, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Because you have to do it basicaly forever.

True.

Quote:

The last 50 years of history shows that the tactics israel is useing don't work.

I'm not so sure. israel's security situation deterioration since the Oslo "peace" accords are to a great degree due to the israeli elite deciding that military force and attacks "don't work" and instead it deluded itself into thinking it can create a "new middle east" with a "peace partner" who never gave up its view of destroying israel.

Skeptic · 10th June 2006, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by shemp

Well golly gee, they apologized, so what's the big deal?

Well, judging by your utter and complete lack of response on this forum to the numerous rocket attacks from Gaza who maimed and killed israelies--intentionally and without apology at that--I agree with your sentiments.

Obviously, as your own behavior shows, you think rocket attacks on civilians are, indeed, no big deal.

(Or perhaps they're no big deal only when it's jews who are attacked...)

WildCat · 10th June 2006, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by geni

No you don't.

So you have an example of Qassam rockets being fired while the shooters are under attack by Israeli artillery?

geni · 10th June 2006, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

So you have an example of Qassam rockets being fired while the shooters are under attack by Israeli artillery?

Short term thinking. Shelling does not stop attacks in the long run. It is not going to make the palistian militants decide to give up.

geni · 10th June 2006, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

I'm not so sure. israel's security situation deterioration since the Oslo "peace" accords are to a great degree due to the israeli elite deciding that military force and attacks "don't work" and instead it deluded itself into thinking it can create a "new middle east" with a "peace partner" who never gave up its view of destroying israel.

So you need to stop them from wanting to hurt Israel. Militeraly that is fairly trivial. Kill them all. Since israel is not prepared to do that you need to look at non militry methods.

WildCat · 10th June 2006, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Short term thinking. Shelling does not stop attacks in the long run. It is not going to make the palistian militants decide to give up.

My point is shelling the rockets positions stops the rockets. Absent the shelling, there is no reason to believe the rockets would stop, is there? And the longer they can shoot unhindered by Israeli shells falling on their positions, the more they can adjust their aim, and the more deadly the rocket attack.

I really don't see how you can claim that Israel should just ignore the rockets.

webfusion · 10th June 2006, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Since Israel is not prepared to do that ("kill them all") you need to look at non-military methods.

Such as?

WildCat · 10th June 2006, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by geni

So you need to stop them from wanting to hurt Israel. Militeraly that is fairly trivial. Kill them all. Since israel is not prepared to do that you need to look at non militry methods.

Which is what they're doing right now! You've just admitted Israel is not embarking on a military solution, didn't you? And the shelling is a short-term solution?

Skeptic · 10th June 2006, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Short term thinking. Shelling does not stop attacks in the long run. It is not going to make the palistian militants decide to give up.

It IS long-term thinking. Since they're going to shell you anyway, your only options are to fight back, do nothing, or appeasement.

The latter two, in the long term as well as the short term, lead only to more shelling or worse--and, what's worse, they're dishonorable and cowardly.

Fighting back, on the other hand, at least makes it possible that, in the long run, you will have to fight less of them since you killed some of them now.

webfusion · 10th June 2006, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Do the Palestinians have a responsibility to resist a military occupation?

They have an obligation (agreed to in writing, several times) to do so politically, not with force of arms. (see: Roadmap)

HAMAS absolutely thinks that open warfare is the way to go against Israel, and the Islamic jihadists are convinced that time is on their side, and at some point, they will be in charge of all of Palestine (including the Western 75% of Historical Palestine in the Kingdom of Jordan).
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...8I3HD0G3.shtml
(AP) King Abdullah II warned on Wednesday that his country can never again serve as a "substitute homeland" for Palestinians. (see: Black September 1970-71)

The Palestinians are not interested in the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines. That is only a 'first step' for them to regain ALL of Palestine(Israel/Jordan).
Anyone who tells you differently is a liar.

Even the Hadarim Documents that are such a big deal for everyone right now say that the aim is to obtain ALL of the Palestinian lands, lock stock and barrel, and that any Israeli withdrawal would be a stepping-stone to that goal.

And that's why Israel needs to force the HAMAS to surrender, now. It needs to eliminate their entire ability to function, totally and completely, and if that means the assassination of each and every member of their 'government' then so be it. They are no different than the Zarqawi's of this world.

geni · 10th June 2006, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

Such as?

Complete the unilateral withdrawal (ie get out of the west bank as well) use the international goodwill gained to attack Hammas diplomaticaly and try and pressure the EU and US to do everything they can to push for democracy in the various palistinian areas.

geni · 10th June 2006, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

It IS long-term thinking. Since they're going to shell you anyway, your only options are to fight back, do nothing, or appeasement.

The latter two, in the long term as well as the short term, lead only to more shelling or worse--and, what's worse, they're dishonorable and cowardly.

You realise you are thinking the same way as hammas? Hearts and minds. You can't destory hammas militeraly since ultimately it is just the idea of militant islam. You can't destory ideas with weapons. You can destory them with words.

Quote:

Fighting back, on the other hand, at least makes it possible that, in the long run, you will have to fight less of them since you killed some of them now.

Nah the palistians have rather a high birth rate. Even ten a day isn't going to have any real effect.

geni · 10th June 2006, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

My point is shelling the rockets positions stops the rockets. Absent the shelling, there is no reason to believe the rockets would stop, is there?

Hammas are loseing support (or at least they were untill a couple of days ago). If they and the other popular militant groups lose popular support the rockets will stop. The militant groups haven't got much going for them other than attacking Israel. They need people to be angry at Isreal. Far less complex to do that by recalling recent events rather than ones that happened over 50 years ago. the militant groups need Israeli attacks to survive.

9th June 2006, 09:48 AM	#1
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	IDF apologizes -- Gaza Beach Tragedy The Israel Defense Forces apologized for the incident, saying it "regretted the strike on innocents." http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nat...orld-headlines Lots of confusion, lots of battlefield "fog" and the media is overwhelmed with data from different sources, making their reporting somewhat diffcult to follow and there's not a clear overall situation right now. In any case, the IDF is on the highest alert and the Palestinians are in a real rage --- "The Zionists have opened the gates of hell ..." said PRC spokesman Abu Abir It is still uncertain that the IDF was in any way responsible for this incident. An investigation is underway...
	__________________ "You support Israel. Enough said." -- mxwarrior, a rabid anti-Israel JREF poster (now banned) offered this in trying to dismiss all comments offered in rebuttal to him by those JREF'ers who use logic, facts, valid sources, and reality. Last edited by webfusion; 9th June 2006 at 10:55 AM.

9th June 2006, 10:07 AM	#2
shemp Timothy, Timothy, where on earth did you go? Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: trapped in a cave-in with Joe Posts: 12,883	Well golly gee, they apologized, so what's the big deal?
	__________________ Church on Sunday, sleep and nod Tryin' to duck the wrath of God Preacher's fillin' us with fright Tryin' to tell us what he thinks is right He really got to be some kind of nut (I can't use it!) Tryin' to make it real - compared to what?

9th June 2006, 10:14 AM	#5
shemp Timothy, Timothy, where on earth did you go? Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: trapped in a cave-in with Joe Posts: 12,883	Originally Posted by geni Unfortunate timeing Yeah if you're gonna kill innocent people try to time it better, like wait for when a tsunami strikes or something!
	__________________ Church on Sunday, sleep and nod Tryin' to duck the wrath of God Preacher's fillin' us with fright Tryin' to tell us what he thinks is right He really got to be some kind of nut (I can't use it!) Tryin' to make it real - compared to what?

9th June 2006, 10:37 AM	#7
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Quote: Unfortunate timeing How so? Just a few minutes ago, IDF sources said that a preliminary investigation showed there had been no shelling from land or sea. Major General Yoav Galant, head of Israel's southern command, said on Friday evening that the army is looking into the circumstances of the explosion. "It is not our intention to harm innocent civilians. We are investigating the incident in order to try to clarify what happened here," he said, adding that the IDF is aware of areas in which civilians are present, and that military gunners are ordered to prevent firing on these areas. One possibility under examination is that a Qassem rocket landed "short" after being fired by a crew farther south along the beach ---
	Last edited by webfusion; 9th June 2006 at 10:53 AM.

9th June 2006, 11:34 AM	#9
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	IDF is still checking the facts...no conclusions announced Quote: Hammas can use it PR wise. They just had one of their senior members killed and his funeral was the largest in Gaza since the death of Rantisi. What further PR benefit do they obtain from the beach? Are you trying to say their approval ratings need help and Israel is helping? I'm missing your point...

9th June 2006, 10:09 AM	#3
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	Yeah, I have symbols on the mind this morning; how powerful they are. The scenes being played over and over on the TV are a tragically screaming little girl whose father was killed on the beach juxtaposed against stories from the World Cup (go Costa Rica!!!). Why I don't watch more tv...

9th June 2006, 10:12 AM	#4
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,552	Unfortunate timeing

9th June 2006, 10:32 AM	#6
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Quote: Well golly gee, they apologized, so what's the big deal? ...And evacuated the wounded to hospitals in Israel for treatment. They might even pay for the hospital bills ----------------

9th June 2006, 11:10 AM	#8
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,552	Originally Posted by webfusion How so? Hammas can use it PR wise. Quote: Just a few minutes ago, IDF sources said that a preliminary investigation showed there had been no shelling from land or sea. Major General Yoav Galant, head of Israel's southern command, said on Friday evening that the army is looking into the circumstances of the explosion. "It is not our intention to harm innocent civilians. We are investigating the incident in order to try to clarify what happened here," he said, adding that the IDF is aware of areas in which civilians are present, and that military gunners are ordered to prevent firing on these areas. One possibility under examination is that a Qassem rocket landed "short" after being fired by a crew farther south along the beach --- So suspiciously unfortunate timing.

9th June 2006, 11:37 AM	#10
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,189	breaking news on the BBC....hamas to end their ceasefire..... sigh
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

9th June 2006, 11:37 AM	#11
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Originally Posted by webfusion ...And evacuated the wounded to hospitals in Israel for treatment. They might even pay for the hospital bills ---------------- Now, now, you're acting like the PA never lends assistance when there are suicide bombers, rocket launchings or mortar shells lobbed into civilian Israeli areas.
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

9th June 2006, 12:40 PM	#12
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,552	Originally Posted by webfusion They just had one of their senior members killed and his funeral was the largest in Gaza since the death of Rantisi. Expected show of strength. However it is fairly easy for people to rationise militants being killed Quote: What further PR benefit do they obtain from the beach? Oh noes the zionist entertiy is killing inocent women and children. They must have the vengance that only we (hammas) can deliver. That kind of thing. Hammas has always had serious oposition to israel as a serious selling point. Quote: Are you trying to say their approval ratings need help and Israel is helping? According to the BBC it is not yet clear if Isreali ground based artierly was involved or not.

9th June 2006, 04:13 PM	#13
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Quote: jocko offers: Now, now, you're acting like the PA never lends assistance when there are suicide bombers, rocket launchings or mortar shells lobbed into civilian Israeli areas. You mean the candies and sweets they hand out? Oh wait, nevermind...
	__________________ "You support Israel. Enough said." -- mxwarrior, a rabid anti-Israel JREF poster (now banned) offered this in trying to dismiss all comments offered in rebuttal to him by those JREF'ers who use logic, facts, valid sources, and reality.

9th June 2006, 11:38 PM	#14
Art Vandelay Illuminator Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 4,790	How can you start an avalanche and then blame the rocks for falling? Regardless of whether the IDF is directly responsible, the Palestinians are ultimately responsible.

10th June 2006, 12:13 AM	#15
burrahobbit Thinker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: India Posts: 192	Random shelling of "possible" sites from where Quassam rockets may be launched and may disturb Israeli rest. Only Palestinans are responsible. Obviously some definition of responsible I do not understand. Both sides are responsible. Until both stop behaving like children nothing will change.
	__________________ If there is a God, it's going to be a whole lot bigger and a whole lot more incomprehensible than anything that any theologian of any religion has ever proposed.- Richard Dawkins

10th June 2006, 05:38 AM	#16
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	children don't act like this --- Excuse us for wishing to live in peace. In regards to this incident on the beach, I am skeptical of the fatalities and casualties being the fault of the IDF. I'll wait until some official report of the ongoing investigation in the next few days. If the shells were indeed wayward rounds that landed off-target, then that will be shown. In any case, I cannot sit here and envision that IDF gunners were aiming for the beach, with intent to inflict civilians harm. That does not seem plausible. The IDF itself denies that this was their aim. Meanwhile, in the gaza strip, the Tadiyeh (calm) is over, officially: HAMAS claimed Saturday morning it had fired at least 15 Qassam rockets at Israel overnight Friday and Saturday morning, for first time in 16 months. Five Qassams launches were detected overnight, although no landing sites were identified and no damage was reported. IDF sources said most of the rockets appeared to have landed inside the Gaza Strip. In the Jabalya refugee camp, five Palestinians were injured on Saturday when a Qassam meant for Israel landed in the camp instead. And if those people had been killed by the Qassems -- it is Israel's fault! Quote: Both sides are responsible. No, burrahobbit, they are not equally responsible. Israel has a responsibility to prevent wanton and random terror against it's citizens. The Palestinians have a responsibility to end their terror campaign and disarm!
	__________________ "You support Israel. Enough said." -- mxwarrior, a rabid anti-Israel JREF poster (now banned) offered this in trying to dismiss all comments offered in rebuttal to him by those JREF'ers who use logic, facts, valid sources, and reality.

10th June 2006, 05:55 AM	#17
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,311	Originally Posted by webfusion No, burrahobbit, they are not equally responsible. Israel has a responsibility to prevent wanton and random terror against it's citizens. The Palestinians have a responsibility to end their terror campaign and disarm! Do the Palestinians have a responsibility to resist a military occupation?
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

10th June 2006, 06:13 AM	#18
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,103	Originally Posted by a_unique_person Do the Palestinians have a responsibility to resist a military occupation? They have a responsibility to do their part to make peace with the Israelis.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

10th June 2006, 06:19 AM	#19
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,552	Originally Posted by webfusion Excuse us for wishing to live in peace. Low level killing won't atchive that. Quote: No, burrahobbit, they are not equally responsible. If it was an israeli stike then who pulled the trigger? Quote: Israel has a responsibility to prevent wanton and random terror against it's citizens. Logicaly so does the PA. No that they have a hope in hell of suceeding. Quote: The Palestinians have a responsibility to end their terror campaign and disarm! So does isreal. Both sides are trying to use force and terror to atchive thier objectives. Both sides are useing the wrong method.

10th June 2006, 06:28 AM	#20
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,960	Originally Posted by geni So does isreal. Both sides are trying to use force and terror to atchive thier objectives. Both sides are useing the wrong method. Yes how terrible of Israel to terrorize those poor Palestinian terrorists by firing back at them...

10th June 2006, 07:05 AM	#21
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,552	Originally Posted by WildCat Yes how terrible of Israel to terrorize those poor Palestinian terrorists by firing back at them... Problem is they don't just kill terroists. In any cases killing 2 or 3 a day really isn't going to have much effect.

10th June 2006, 07:32 AM	#22
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,960	Originally Posted by geni Problem is they don't just kill terroists. In any cases killing 2 or 3 a day really isn't going to have much effect. That's quite an opinion you have. I happen to think there would be a far greater number of Qassam attacks if Israel didn't shoot back, and simply ignored them as you appear to be suggesting. You may only kill 2 or 3, but you also stop the attack from continuing. It would be nice if some weapon existed that only killed combatants, but that technology isn't on the horizon yet.

10th June 2006, 07:52 AM	#23
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by webfusion In any case, the IDF is on the highest alert and the Palestinians are in a real rage --- "The Zionists have opened the gates of hell ..." said PRC spokesman Abu Abir What, again? If I remember correctly Palestinian spokesmen said the zionists "opened the gate of hell" every time they attacked inside the PA for the last, oh, six years or so.

10th June 2006, 07:55 AM	#24
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by geni Problem is they don't just kill terroists. In any cases killing 2 or 3 a day really isn't going to have much effect. I fail to see why that should be a problem for israel. After all, the daily Kassam rocket barrages, whose purpose is explicitly to kill as many civilian jews as possible, hardly changed your views about the Palestinians' goal or the essential justice of their position. So why exactly should israel kiling civilians change your view about israel one way or the other? Obviously you don't think killing civilans is any cause for concern.

10th June 2006, 08:00 AM	#25
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by burrahobbit Random shelling of "possible" sites from where Quassam rockets may be launched and may disturb Israeli rest. Change that to "may kill israeli children" and you got it about right. As for "both side are responsible", hint: only ONE side's OFFICIAL AND ACTUAL goal is to kill or expel all those on the other side into the sea by any means necessary, and only ONE side carries out deliberate and random indiscriminate attacks on the other with the expressed purpose as killing as many children as possible.

10th June 2006, 08:17 AM	#26
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,552	Originally Posted by WildCat That's quite an opinion you have. I happen to think there would be a far greater number of Qassam attacks if Israel didn't shoot back, and simply ignored them as you appear to be suggesting. You may only kill 2 or 3, but you also stop the attack from continuing. No you don't.

10th June 2006, 08:20 AM	#27
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,552	Originally Posted by Skeptic I fail to see why that should be a problem for israel. Because you have to do it basicaly forever. The last 50 years of history shows that the tactics israel is useing don't work. Quote: After all, the daily Kassam rocket barrages, whose purpose is explicitly to kill as many civilian jews as possible, hardly changed your views about the Palestinians' goal or the essential justice of their position. Oh it's a stupid militry tactic is you are useing it against israel but it could be effective if you tried it against other groups. Quote: So why exactly should israel kiling civilians change your view about israel one way or the other? Never said it did.

10th June 2006, 08:26 AM	#28
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by geni Because you have to do it basicaly forever. True. Quote: The last 50 years of history shows that the tactics israel is useing don't work. I'm not so sure. israel's security situation deterioration since the Oslo "peace" accords are to a great degree due to the israeli elite deciding that military force and attacks "don't work" and instead it deluded itself into thinking it can create a "new middle east" with a "peace partner" who never gave up its view of destroying israel.

10th June 2006, 08:31 AM	#29
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by shemp Well golly gee, they apologized, so what's the big deal? Well, judging by your utter and complete lack of response on this forum to the numerous rocket attacks from Gaza who maimed and killed israelies--intentionally and without apology at that--I agree with your sentiments. Obviously, as your own behavior shows, you think rocket attacks on civilians are, indeed, no big deal. (Or perhaps they're no big deal only when it's jews who are attacked...)

10th June 2006, 08:32 AM	#30
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,960	Originally Posted by geni No you don't. So you have an example of Qassam rockets being fired while the shooters are under attack by Israeli artillery?

10th June 2006, 08:35 AM	#31
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,552	Originally Posted by WildCat So you have an example of Qassam rockets being fired while the shooters are under attack by Israeli artillery? Short term thinking. Shelling does not stop attacks in the long run. It is not going to make the palistian militants decide to give up.

10th June 2006, 08:38 AM	#32
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,552	Originally Posted by Skeptic I'm not so sure. israel's security situation deterioration since the Oslo "peace" accords are to a great degree due to the israeli elite deciding that military force and attacks "don't work" and instead it deluded itself into thinking it can create a "new middle east" with a "peace partner" who never gave up its view of destroying israel. So you need to stop them from wanting to hurt Israel. Militeraly that is fairly trivial. Kill them all. Since israel is not prepared to do that you need to look at non militry methods.

10th June 2006, 08:48 AM	#33
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,960	Originally Posted by geni Short term thinking. Shelling does not stop attacks in the long run. It is not going to make the palistian militants decide to give up. My point is shelling the rockets positions stops the rockets. Absent the shelling, there is no reason to believe the rockets would stop, is there? And the longer they can shoot unhindered by Israeli shells falling on their positions, the more they can adjust their aim, and the more deadly the rocket attack. I really don't see how you can claim that Israel should just ignore the rockets.

10th June 2006, 08:49 AM	#34
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Quote: Since Israel is not prepared to do that ("kill them all") you need to look at non-military methods. Such as?

10th June 2006, 08:50 AM	#35
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,960	Originally Posted by geni So you need to stop them from wanting to hurt Israel. Militeraly that is fairly trivial. Kill them all. Since israel is not prepared to do that you need to look at non militry methods. Which is what they're doing right now! You've just admitted Israel is not embarking on a military solution, didn't you? And the shelling is a short-term solution?