Loose Change on Staten Island...

Tamarillicent · 21st June 2006, 12:40 PM

There is a really cool cafe/performance space/used book store here on Staten Island that is run by Ganas Community which may or not be a cult, but that's beside the point.
They show movies and have local artists perform and good stuff like that. The BAD thing is, they are showing the Loose Change movie on June 24th! What to do? I would love to go and show why they are wrong, but I'm horrid at expressing myself.
Anyone wanna go?

Tam

Gravy · 21st June 2006, 12:53 PM

The Ganas community appears to be a cult. The leader is being stalked by an ex-member with a gun. It's been in the news lately, including in the Daily News today. I would avoid the screening, maybe email the cafe owner with links to my critique and the "Creators of Loose Change Speak" doc.

SteveGrenard · 21st June 2006, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

The Ganas community appears to be a cult. The leader is being stalked by an ex-member with a gun. It's been in the news lately, including in the Daily News today. I would avoid the screening, maybe email the cafe owner with links to my critique and the "Creators of Loose Change Speak" doc.

I was about to say the same thing. Forget about it and don't go anywhere near this group, the screening or anything else to do with them for now. They are under constant police surveillance as the disgruntled ex-member who shot and nearly killed their leader is still at large and is believed to be watching for another opportunity. They also run a number of second hand or thrift shops on Bay Street in the area of Stapleton (ferry area).

Cops in stakeout after stalker threat

Messages from suspect trigger police action at New Brighton commune
Wednesday, June 21, 2006
By JEFF HARRELL
STATEN ISLAND ADVANCE

Police have resumed their watch on the Ganas community in New Brighton in response to a disturbing communique that indicates the fugitive suspect in leader Jeff Gross' shooting is keeping tabs still on the group.
Yesterday, a week after police withdrew from the area, a cop sat in a marked car in a driveway across from the spot where an assailant jumped out of heavy brush and shot Gross when he returned home from a movie shortly after 11 p.m. on Memorial Day.

more of article at:

http://www.silive.com/search/index.s...770.xml&coll=1

Tamarillicent · 21st June 2006, 01:37 PM

I live in their neighborhood (New Brighton/St.George area) so avoiding the place is out of the question. We live a street over from some of their houses, and a few more blocks from their furniture store/art gallery, I go past their clothing store every day to get to the ferry, and my husband did some performing for them at the opening of their cafe/bookstore. I've read all about their issues with the former member. Most recently, she's been sending stuff to the Staten Island Advance. Really creepy. I hope they find her! I've run into the guy who got shot just from living in the area. In other words, I'm familiar with the some of the individuals who work/live with the Ganas community, and if the police are monitoring them, I'm sure they've seen me more than once.

They don't seem like they are very dangerous, but then again, neither does the neighborhood "crack house." I don't plan on moving in to either.
They folks there have always been friendly in the way a business owner is friendly when you are a potential customer and I'm just disappointed that they'd show this film, and I'd be really disappointed if they actually believed it.

Anyway, I was hoping someone would be able to show them the error of their ways. Oh well. No one would most likely show up anyway.

Tam

SteveGrenard · 21st June 2006, 01:56 PM

The community members are not dangerous. I too have shopped in their stores and have always found them to be pleasant and helpful. Rebekah Johnson is the dangerous one and so long as she is still at large, possibly in the area waiting for another crack at Jeff Gross, it is a good idea not to go to a large public gathering such as a film showing, especially if Jeff will be there. I hope they catch this whacko soon as I am sure she is turning everyone's lives upside down just by knowing she's out there.

On the subject of whether or not commune members and their visitors believe the Loose Change movie or not, it is apt to be as contentious as any arguments you find here or anywhere on the subject. I don't think it matters much what they believe or are led to believe.

Gravy · 22nd June 2006, 12:05 PM

Tamarillicent,
Maybe you could print out a few one-page flyers and ask the café owner or whoever is running the screening if they would make them available to attendees of the screening.

As you know, Staten Island was hit hard by 9/11. You might stress to the café owner that the creators of LC are extremely disrespectful of the victims. You could refer the owner to the quotes in this document: http://911myths.com/LooseChangeCreatorsSpeak.pdf

On the first page:

Dylan Avery, writer and director of the 9/11 conspiracy video “Loose Change,” being interviewed by host Jack Blood on the radio program "Deadline Live," April, 2005. The interview is promoted on the "Loose Change” website: http://www.loosechange911.com/

Quote:

Avery: Ha Ha Ha Ha! Have you seen how small those things [box cutters] are? Like, if I was on a flight, with, you know, at least 50 other people – because that's the smallest number I think was on 9/11* – if I was in the cabin, with 50 other people, and five people – I don't care if they're Muslim or not – stand up with box cutters and say they're gonna hijack the plane, I'm gonna laugh in their face!

Blood: And these pilots, I mean, we interviewed Debra Burlingame, whose brother Chick was the one sup-posedly flying that plane that hit the Pentagon–

Avery: Oh, that's right! I heard about that!

Blood: –And of course she is a TOTAL shill for the Republican Party, she also spoke at the [Republican Na-tional] Convention. And is it ABSURD that she went on and on about how her brother was ex-military, how she knows that her brother and the other pilots fought for their lives, against these deadly terrorists–

Avery: Yeaaah, yeah. Whatever.

Blood: (mocking an Arabic accent): It is my preevilege to keel you with thees box cutter!

Avery: Ha ha!

Blood: Didn't Rumsfeld say, right after this happened, that they had actually done this with plastic knives and not box cutters?

Avery: Yeah, he said that in the same interview where he said that a missile hit the Pentagon.

Blood: OH MY GOD! HE'S GOT A PLASTIC KNIFE!

Avery: HAHAHA!

Blood: RUN!

Avery: HE'S GOT A BUTTER KNIFE FROM BREAKFAST! OH, NO!

Blood: Take the plane, sir. We don't want any trouble.

Avery: HE'S GOING TO SCRATCH ME A LITTLE BIT! HUH HUH!

Blood: UN-BELIEVABLE! Well, that's exactly what we're saying. That's an overused term, or underused term, "unbelievable."

Avery: (Still laughing): It's ABSOLUTELY unbelievable!

Blood: (doing accent again): It's un-bee-leevable!

Avery: What's even MORE unbelievable is how people will DEFEND this!

Blood: Hold on, Dylan, we've gotta take a break....

There are many similar quotes in the "Victims" section of that document. A list of the major claims made in LC begins on page 3 of that document.

If the owner wants to go ahead with the screening, you could ask if he or she would make the flyers available. They could include these points:

The list of claims made in LC.

A statement that ALL of these claims have been proven false, and that many of them can be proven false with only a few minutes of internet research. The creators of "Loose Change" chose not to do that research.

Links to my "Loose Change Viewer Guide" http://tinyurl.com/epp82 (.doc file) or http://tinyurl.com/jnfp8 (to view online as HTML) and to the above document.

Links to other 9/11 myth debunking and "LC" debunking sites

www.911myths.com (the best debunking site)
http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr/ (Good LC debunking blog, and a link to a version of the "LC" video thoroughly annotated by debunker MarkyX)
Popular Mechanics: Debunking the Myths http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html
Debunking 911 http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/
9-11 Conspiracy Smasher http://911conspiracysmasher.blogspot.com/
Refuting 9/11 Conspiracy Theories: http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/refute.htm
9-11 Conspiracy Fact & Fiction http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman...cle_1253.shtml
Wikipedia page on "Loose Change." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_Change_(video)
And, of course, lively discussion at the JREF forums: http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=7

60hzxtl · 22nd June 2006, 12:24 PM

There is also the tactic of having friends sit around the room, and get up and leave conspicuoisly, (make sure you get in as many people's way as possible.)

Inappropriate guffaws at the lousy science might be taken the wrong way, although a loud 'What?" at some of the loonier points might help too.

How much is the admission? Oh yeah, they give it away!

I try to keep politics out of this forum, but the NY Sun Newspaper's columnist Alica Colon loves to write about Staten Island where she lives. Maybe you should contact her to attend, armed with Gravy's rebuttal.

I won't post her email here - but it is easy to find, or I'd pm it to you.

00sweeney · 1st July 2006, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

The Ganas community appears to be a cult. The leader is being stalked by an ex-member with a gun. It's been in the news lately, including in the Daily News today. I would avoid the screening, maybe email the cafe owner with links to my critique and the "Creators of Loose Change Speak" doc.

This is a site devoted to skeptics, and you get your information from tabloids?
Because that's what the NY News and the NY Post are. I've lived at Ganas for almost a year, and here are some things you might want to think about:

1. Back before the Scientologists bankrupted them, we were investigated by the Cult Awareness Network who found no signs that we were a cult. We also have none of the commonly accepted warning signs of being a cult. You can find the list by googling "cult warning signs".

2. Thousands of people have passed through Ganas over the last 20+ years. If we were as bad as we're are portrayed, don't you think there'd be dozens of websites devoted to exposing us? Wouldn't all this have played out in the press before? Why have only two people (both of whom left on bad terms) come out against us in the media?

3. Most of the people who live here do not participate in feedback learning, do not share income, and do not attend any of the meetings through which decisions are made. They just pay to live here, and are in no way coerced to partake of the Ganas philosophy. The only rules that apply are a) no violence towards people or things b) no free rides (you have to either work in the stores or pay rent) c) no illegal activities and d) no non-negotiable negativity, which basically means if you have a problem with someone or something, you can't just sit and bitch about it, you have to be willing to talk about it so that the problem can be resolved. How many cults do you know of that do not require all their members to adhere to their dogma?

4. We're not a peace and love hippie commune, at least not in the stereotypical sense that most people think of. Yes, we're pacifists, yes, we believe in peace and love, yes we prefer to talk things through rather than fight about them, but honestly, if you spent an hour here you'd realize that most of what you've read in the tabloids is trash.

In reality, we're actually a pretty mundane group. I know the "group marriage" thing freaks people out, but it's no longer practiced. As to the partner swapping, that's been sensationalized as well. What has happened is that people have decided for whatever reasons they are no longer satisfied with their current relationship, and instead of ending in acrimony and bad feelings, they talk it through so that while the relationship has ended, the friendship and closeness remains. Sounds like a pretty laudable goal to me.

We recently had a reporter from New York magazine stay with us for a month. While the resulting article was positive, it was edited to focus on the more sensational aspects of the community. I have a copy of the original article and would be glad to email it to anyone who is interested in getting a more accurate idea about my community. Also the articles in the Staten Island Advance were much more balanced.

Thanks for listening.

Matt
00sweeney@gmail.com

Gravy · 1st July 2006, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by 00sweeney

This is a site devoted to skeptics, and you get your information from tabloids?

Hi Matt, I meant to post here what I said in some personal messages to members: that after reading a bit more about Ganas, it didn't seem cultish.

Thank you for your input, and I apologize for my neglect.

SteveGrenard · 1st July 2006, 05:37 PM

If I recall, Jeff Gross also works with the local courts to provide community service opportunities for low level drug (possession)offenders who are sentenced to fines and service. He provides offenders work in neighborhood beautification projects such as planting flowers in public areas or cleaning up public areas.

21st June 2006, 12:40 PM	#1
Tamarillicent Scholar Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 116	Loose Change on Staten Island... There is a really cool cafe/performance space/used book store here on Staten Island that is run by Ganas Community which may or not be a cult, but that's beside the point. They show movies and have local artists perform and good stuff like that. The BAD thing is, they are showing the Loose Change movie on June 24th! What to do? I would love to go and show why they are wrong, but I'm horrid at expressing myself. Anyone wanna go? Tam
Tamarillicent Scholar Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 116

21st June 2006, 12:53 PM	#2
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	The Ganas community appears to be a cult. The leader is being stalked by an ex-member with a gun. It's been in the news lately, including in the Daily News today. I would avoid the screening, maybe email the cafe owner with links to my critique and the "Creators of Loose Change Speak" doc.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

21st June 2006, 12:57 PM	#3
SteveGrenard Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wherever the airline sends my luggage Posts: 5,528	Originally Posted by Gravy The Ganas community appears to be a cult. The leader is being stalked by an ex-member with a gun. It's been in the news lately, including in the Daily News today. I would avoid the screening, maybe email the cafe owner with links to my critique and the "Creators of Loose Change Speak" doc. I was about to say the same thing. Forget about it and don't go anywhere near this group, the screening or anything else to do with them for now. They are under constant police surveillance as the disgruntled ex-member who shot and nearly killed their leader is still at large and is believed to be watching for another opportunity. They also run a number of second hand or thrift shops on Bay Street in the area of Stapleton (ferry area). Cops in stakeout after stalker threat Messages from suspect trigger police action at New Brighton commune Wednesday, June 21, 2006 By JEFF HARRELL STATEN ISLAND ADVANCE Police have resumed their watch on the Ganas community in New Brighton in response to a disturbing communique that indicates the fugitive suspect in leader Jeff Gross' shooting is keeping tabs still on the group. Yesterday, a week after police withdrew from the area, a cop sat in a marked car in a driveway across from the spot where an assailant jumped out of heavy brush and shot Gross when he returned home from a movie shortly after 11 p.m. on Memorial Day. more of article at: http://www.silive.com/search/index.s...770.xml&coll=1
	__________________ "We are facing a neurosis at the level of an entire civilization” Pierre Rehov Last edited by SteveGrenard; 21st June 2006 at 01:04 PM.

21st June 2006, 01:37 PM	#4
Tamarillicent Scholar Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 116	I live in their neighborhood (New Brighton/St.George area) so avoiding the place is out of the question. We live a street over from some of their houses, and a few more blocks from their furniture store/art gallery, I go past their clothing store every day to get to the ferry, and my husband did some performing for them at the opening of their cafe/bookstore. I've read all about their issues with the former member. Most recently, she's been sending stuff to the Staten Island Advance. Really creepy. I hope they find her! I've run into the guy who got shot just from living in the area. In other words, I'm familiar with the some of the individuals who work/live with the Ganas community, and if the police are monitoring them, I'm sure they've seen me more than once. They don't seem like they are very dangerous, but then again, neither does the neighborhood "crack house." I don't plan on moving in to either. They folks there have always been friendly in the way a business owner is friendly when you are a potential customer and I'm just disappointed that they'd show this film, and I'd be really disappointed if they actually believed it. Anyway, I was hoping someone would be able to show them the error of their ways. Oh well. No one would most likely show up anyway. Tam
Tamarillicent Scholar Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 116

21st June 2006, 01:56 PM	#5
SteveGrenard Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wherever the airline sends my luggage Posts: 5,528	The community members are not dangerous. I too have shopped in their stores and have always found them to be pleasant and helpful. Rebekah Johnson is the dangerous one and so long as she is still at large, possibly in the area waiting for another crack at Jeff Gross, it is a good idea not to go to a large public gathering such as a film showing, especially if Jeff will be there. I hope they catch this whacko soon as I am sure she is turning everyone's lives upside down just by knowing she's out there. On the subject of whether or not commune members and their visitors believe the Loose Change movie or not, it is apt to be as contentious as any arguments you find here or anywhere on the subject. I don't think it matters much what they believe or are led to believe.
	__________________ "We are facing a neurosis at the level of an entire civilization” Pierre Rehov

22nd June 2006, 12:05 PM	#6
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Tamarillicent, Maybe you could print out a few one-page flyers and ask the café owner or whoever is running the screening if they would make them available to attendees of the screening. As you know, Staten Island was hit hard by 9/11. You might stress to the café owner that the creators of LC are extremely disrespectful of the victims. You could refer the owner to the quotes in this document: http://911myths.com/LooseChangeCreatorsSpeak.pdf On the first page: Dylan Avery, writer and director of the 9/11 conspiracy video “Loose Change,” being interviewed by host Jack Blood on the radio program "Deadline Live," April, 2005. The interview is promoted on the "Loose Change” website: http://www.loosechange911.com/ Quote: Avery: Ha Ha Ha Ha! Have you seen how small those things [box cutters] are? Like, if I was on a flight, with, you know, at least 50 other people – because that's the smallest number I think was on 9/11* – if I was in the cabin, with 50 other people, and five people – I don't care if they're Muslim or not – stand up with box cutters and say they're gonna hijack the plane, I'm gonna laugh in their face! Blood: And these pilots, I mean, we interviewed Debra Burlingame, whose brother Chick was the one sup-posedly flying that plane that hit the Pentagon– Avery: Oh, that's right! I heard about that! Blood: –And of course she is a TOTAL shill for the Republican Party, she also spoke at the [Republican Na-tional] Convention. And is it ABSURD that she went on and on about how her brother was ex-military, how she knows that her brother and the other pilots fought for their lives, against these deadly terrorists– Avery: Yeaaah, yeah. Whatever. Blood: (mocking an Arabic accent): It is my preevilege to keel you with thees box cutter! Avery: Ha ha! Blood: Didn't Rumsfeld say, right after this happened, that they had actually done this with plastic knives and not box cutters? Avery: Yeah, he said that in the same interview where he said that a missile hit the Pentagon. Blood: OH MY GOD! HE'S GOT A PLASTIC KNIFE! Avery: HAHAHA! Blood: RUN! Avery: HE'S GOT A BUTTER KNIFE FROM BREAKFAST! OH, NO! Blood: Take the plane, sir. We don't want any trouble. Avery: HE'S GOING TO SCRATCH ME A LITTLE BIT! HUH HUH! Blood: UN-BELIEVABLE! Well, that's exactly what we're saying. That's an overused term, or underused term, "unbelievable." Avery: (Still laughing): It's ABSOLUTELY unbelievable! Blood: (doing accent again): It's un-bee-leevable! Avery: What's even MORE unbelievable is how people will DEFEND this! Blood: Hold on, Dylan, we've gotta take a break.... There are many similar quotes in the "Victims" section of that document. A list of the major claims made in LC begins on page 3 of that document. If the owner wants to go ahead with the screening, you could ask if he or she would make the flyers available. They could include these points: The list of claims made in LC. A statement that ALL of these claims have been proven false, and that many of them can be proven false with only a few minutes of internet research. The creators of "Loose Change" chose not to do that research. Links to my "Loose Change Viewer Guide" http://tinyurl.com/epp82 (.doc file) or http://tinyurl.com/jnfp8 (to view online as HTML) and to the above document. Links to other 9/11 myth debunking and "LC" debunking sites www.911myths.com (the best debunking site) http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr/ (Good LC debunking blog, and a link to a version of the "LC" video thoroughly annotated by debunker MarkyX) Popular Mechanics: Debunking the Myths http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html Debunking 911 http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/ 9-11 Conspiracy Smasher http://911conspiracysmasher.blogspot.com/ Refuting 9/11 Conspiracy Theories: http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/refute.htm 9-11 Conspiracy Fact & Fiction http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman...cle_1253.shtml Wikipedia page on "Loose Change." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_Change_(video) And, of course, lively discussion at the JREF forums: http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=7
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

22nd June 2006, 12:24 PM	#7
60hzxtl Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 698	There is also the tactic of having friends sit around the room, and get up and leave conspicuoisly, (make sure you get in as many people's way as possible.) Inappropriate guffaws at the lousy science might be taken the wrong way, although a loud 'What?" at some of the loonier points might help too. How much is the admission? Oh yeah, they give it away! I try to keep politics out of this forum, but the NY Sun Newspaper's columnist Alica Colon loves to write about Staten Island where she lives. Maybe you should contact her to attend, armed with Gravy's rebuttal. I won't post her email here - but it is easy to find, or I'd pm it to you.
	__________________ Loose Change, own all the versions!

1st July 2006, 02:38 PM	#8
00sweeney New Blood Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1	An informed opinion about Ganas Originally Posted by Gravy The Ganas community appears to be a cult. The leader is being stalked by an ex-member with a gun. It's been in the news lately, including in the Daily News today. I would avoid the screening, maybe email the cafe owner with links to my critique and the "Creators of Loose Change Speak" doc. This is a site devoted to skeptics, and you get your information from tabloids? Because that's what the NY News and the NY Post are. I've lived at Ganas for almost a year, and here are some things you might want to think about: 1. Back before the Scientologists bankrupted them, we were investigated by the Cult Awareness Network who found no signs that we were a cult. We also have none of the commonly accepted warning signs of being a cult. You can find the list by googling "cult warning signs". 2. Thousands of people have passed through Ganas over the last 20+ years. If we were as bad as we're are portrayed, don't you think there'd be dozens of websites devoted to exposing us? Wouldn't all this have played out in the press before? Why have only two people (both of whom left on bad terms) come out against us in the media? 3. Most of the people who live here do not participate in feedback learning, do not share income, and do not attend any of the meetings through which decisions are made. They just pay to live here, and are in no way coerced to partake of the Ganas philosophy. The only rules that apply are a) no violence towards people or things b) no free rides (you have to either work in the stores or pay rent) c) no illegal activities and d) no non-negotiable negativity, which basically means if you have a problem with someone or something, you can't just sit and bitch about it, you have to be willing to talk about it so that the problem can be resolved. How many cults do you know of that do not require all their members to adhere to their dogma? 4. We're not a peace and love hippie commune, at least not in the stereotypical sense that most people think of. Yes, we're pacifists, yes, we believe in peace and love, yes we prefer to talk things through rather than fight about them, but honestly, if you spent an hour here you'd realize that most of what you've read in the tabloids is trash. In reality, we're actually a pretty mundane group. I know the "group marriage" thing freaks people out, but it's no longer practiced. As to the partner swapping, that's been sensationalized as well. What has happened is that people have decided for whatever reasons they are no longer satisfied with their current relationship, and instead of ending in acrimony and bad feelings, they talk it through so that while the relationship has ended, the friendship and closeness remains. Sounds like a pretty laudable goal to me. We recently had a reporter from New York magazine stay with us for a month. While the resulting article was positive, it was edited to focus on the more sensational aspects of the community. I have a copy of the original article and would be glad to email it to anyone who is interested in getting a more accurate idea about my community. Also the articles in the Staten Island Advance were much more balanced. Thanks for listening. Matt 00sweeney@gmail.com
00sweeney New Blood Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1

1st July 2006, 04:38 PM	#9
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by 00sweeney This is a site devoted to skeptics, and you get your information from tabloids? Hi Matt, I meant to post here what I said in some personal messages to members: that after reading a bit more about Ganas, it didn't seem cultish. Thank you for your input, and I apologize for my neglect.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

1st July 2006, 05:37 PM	#10
SteveGrenard Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wherever the airline sends my luggage Posts: 5,528	If I recall, Jeff Gross also works with the local courts to provide community service opportunities for low level drug (possession)offenders who are sentenced to fines and service. He provides offenders work in neighborhood beautification projects such as planting flowers in public areas or cleaning up public areas.
	__________________ "We are facing a neurosis at the level of an entire civilization” Pierre Rehov