Buying a PC advice (processor talk cont'd)

[bigred]

OK looking for some fairly specific advice, some of which was touched on in other threads - ie no offense but while I appreciate it I don't really need "buy the best you can afford" or "dude, Brand X is way better" stuff.

I guess what I'm really trying to get a better handle on is first how much diff. having one processor vs the other is, for ex. will having an Athlon vs Celeron generally speaking really buy me much diff, or having an Athlon 3400 vs Athlon 3700 (etc).

Alos want to address the following from another thread:

Originally Posted by Errata

You don't need to build your own computer, just don't buy one in a retail store. You'll never be able to pick the right features and get a good price if you have to pick from a shelf model. I've had lots of good experiences with the major online sellers (like Dell). You can pick each component, like the video card, according to your needs, and have it shipped.

Sorry I quite disagree. I have comparison shopped and can get much more bang/buck from a retail store package deal than buying online from Dell/etc. Plus I don't have the hassle/wait time of shipping, and what if it's damaged, not configured right, etc. And I have found several which meet what my requirements, eg:

1GB RAM (granted I could upgrade but even that's a PITA nowdays)
LCD monitor
HD: don't care, any size is plenty for me, trust me
(Processor: see the Celeron thread)

I have seen a number of PCs at CC, BB, CompUSA etc in the $500-600ish range which meet this; no can do @ Dell.com or the like.

Oh yeah, I'm not a hard-core gamer or graphics artist (etc) hence I don't need top of the line to say the least.

General experiences/info appreciated

[jimlintott]

I tend to agree with your assessment about off the shelf stuff. At the lower end of the price range you can do pretty well. If you are looking for a higher end machine, something that will play F.E.A.R. with the graphics cranked up then I prefer the ala carte approach. I like knowing what brand and model my motherboard is. I like knowing that I have a high quality case that I can expand in and has a PS that won't choke on a new video card.

In the low end models you will get a competent machine that will likely serve your needs. What you won't usually get is, the ability to exand easily, name brand components, OEM CD of the OS, high grade case, enough horsepower to run high end games or run some very cpu and ram intensive applications (may not matter).

As long as you understand what you are getting you'll have no problems. Take your $600 and find the machine at that price that comes with the most comfortable mouse or the prettiest ....er coolest case and buy it.

[BenK]

This should help with seeing the difference between CPUs.

[infornography]

OEMs tend to overkill on the CPU since that is the one stat that most people pay attention to. They skimp on other things generally so don't worry about the processor.

My main argument against buying an "off the shelf" computer is that an off the shelf brand is moderately likely to be unstable. In particular you should avoid any HP or Compaq computers sold in Walmarts or Sam's Clubs. Also eMachines are raging piles of donkey poo.

Your best bet is probably to get a cheap off brand system at Fry's Electronics or some similar store. At least then they will use standardized components that you can swap out if needed. Most brand name OEM systems will use proprietary parts that you can't easily replace.

There IS a reason off the shelf PCs cost less.

[Errata]

Originally Posted by bigred

1GB RAM (granted I could upgrade but even that's a PITA nowdays)
LCD monitor
HD: don't care, any size is plenty for me, trust me
(Processor: see the Celeron thread)

I have seen a number of PCs at CC, BB, CompUSA etc in the $500-600ish range which meet this; no can do @ Dell.com or the like.

Sure you can, that costs $530 at dell.com right now, plus $30 shipping. The inconvenience of waiting is more than compensated for by the convenience of selecting exactly what you want rather than settling for what they have had sitting around for a while in store. I can't go to your local store and point out whats out of date with whatever they're selling, but computers in retail stores isn't the best business model, and the costs are passed on to the consumer.

[bigred]

Originally Posted by jimlintott

As long as you understand what you are getting you'll have no problems. Take your $600 and find the machine at that price that comes with the most comfortable mouse or the prettiest ....er coolest case and buy it.

Darn and you almost went thru the whole post hiding your snobbery

[bigred]

Originally Posted by Errata

Sure you can, that costs $530 at dell.com right now, plus $30 shipping.

I call shenanigans. I saw nothing even remotely close to that price for what I'm asking.

Quote:

The inconvenience of waiting is more than compensated for by the convenience of selecting exactly what you want rather than settling for what they have had sitting around for a while in store. .

I have to settle for what I want from Dell.com (etc) too. I didn't see any "we'll build it to your specs" option. Did I miss it?

[jimlintott]

Originally Posted by bigred

Darn and you almost went thru the whole post hiding your snobbery

Not quite sure how I'm being a snob. Sorry if it seems that way.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is at that price point they are all pretty much the same. Have you found any major differences at that price point?

[Stainless_Steel_Rat]

If you're mainly going to be using your system for Internet/E-mail/Word proccessing, then by all means save some money and get one with a Duron/Celeron/whatever l2 cacheless system you can find. Most people aren't going to be pushing the CPU on much of anything they do.

You've indicated that you don't play any current games, so I don't think you'll need much in the way of power. You pretty much just need one that will run the OS you're using. If you plan to do any photo editing I do suggest loading up on the RAM.

As for Compaq(HP bought them)/Dell, you're going to talk to someone with a procedures book in India if you buy these. If you can find a local shop with customer/tech service you like, go with that. Tech support sucks always, some just sucks less than others.

SSR

[Stainless_Steel_Rat]

If you're like me however... and want to play F.E.A.R. on high setting's you'll want...
<shameless brag>
DFI Lanparty UT CFX3200-DR Socket 939 ATI CrossFire
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+
CORSAIR XMS 2GB
POWERCOLOR 1900XTX512MB
Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeMusic
2x Western Digital Caviar RE WD2500YD 250GB
Antec TRUEPOWERII TPII-550 ATX12V 550W
Creative Inspire P7800 90 Watts 7.1 Speakers
</shameless brag>

[Zep]

Red, any current Celeron/Pentium/Athlon/Duron CPU is going to be more than fine for what you seem to have in mind. Plenty of horsepower there. But do bear in mind the following points (in random order):

1) More real RAM is always better - 1GB minimum, 2GB is preferred. Windows and Linux are virtual memory OS's, and so are designed to suck memory dry. Trust an old systems manager on this one!

2) Faster hard disk is better than a bigger hard disk. If you want to add more HD space, you can always buy another HD later (add-on or replacement). And they are whopping sizes as standard now anyway. So check the "latency" and "data transfer" speeds - faster is better. Also, take advice on name-brand reliability.

3) The cheaper PCs usually have an all-in-one motherboard. Sound, video, networking, SATA, SCSI, USB, coffee-machine-interface, etc, all built in. That's why they can be so cheap - they are stamped out like sausages and are simple to assemble. Downside is: If just one part fails, it's almost invariably a whole mobo replacement coming up. Not easy or neccessarily cheap to rectify for the non-techie. Many folks end up junking the whole box and start again in such a situation. Point to note: Check mobo reliability data.

4) Same situation also makes component upgrades (especially video upgrades) a bit of a bother at times. It's a good idea to make sure you will be happy for the lifetime of your PC with the features and limitations of that particular mobo. Look at the specs and ask questions.

5) Keep an eye on the power supply used. Some can be real cheap and nasty, and can put the components in danger of spikes, underpowering, etc.

6) Cool cases are fine, although neons consume a bit of extra power. And they are rather distracting on your desk, I find. But hey! It's your PC & your desk! Personally I prefer a tower box to a desktop mainly because I can add more stuff easily later, if I want.

Good luck!

[kevin]

on CPU speeds, unless it's an order of magnitude change you're not going to notice the difference. 3 months after you've started using that blazing fast computer you'll start to notice every little 2 second wait and it'll feel slow again.

Avoid cacheless CPU's. To be honest I don't think they make them anymore (Celeron's have had a cache since the second model release). CPUs are so much faster than memory you need a cache on the chip or it'll be spinning it's wheels wasting time/money waiting for a memory fetch.

[bigred]

Originally Posted by jimlintott

Not quite sure how I'm being a snob. Sorry if it seems that way.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is at that price point they are all pretty much the same. Have you found any major differences at that price point?

Sorry if I misunderstood. Your "Take your $600 and find the machine at that price that comes with the most comfortable mouse or the prettiest ....er coolest case and buy it" sounds like you think I give a flip about such silly pointless things. And offhand not sure how much diff. there is between similar price ranges...that's part of what I'm checking/asking.


Anyway thx for info/advice all. Basically I'm somewhere between the parent who only uses it for email and the hard-core gamer types. Exactly where I lay between the 2 is hard to say.....but as I say, I don't play games much any more and although I might get into it some, I don't care about being able to play the latest, hottest stuff. But even older (ie not ancient) games appear to need at least 32MB VRAM these days....

[jimlintott]

Originally Posted by bigred

Sorry if I misunderstood. Your "Take your $600 and find the machine at that price that comes with the most comfortable mouse or the prettiest ....er coolest case and buy it" sounds like you think I give a flip about such silly pointless things. And offhand not sure how much diff. there is between similar price ranges...that's part of what I'm checking/asking.


Anyway thx for info/advice all. Basically I'm somewhere between the parent who only uses it for email and the hard-core gamer types. Exactly where I lay between the 2 is hard to say.....but as I say, I don't play games much any more and although I might get into it some, I don't care about being able to play the latest, hottest stuff. But even older (ie not ancient) games appear to need at least 32MB VRAM these days....

Fair enough. I'll tell you why I think it is perfectly valid advice. I get asked the "what computer should I buy" all the time and the first question I ask is "what do you want to do with it and what's your budget". When it is just for basic business, email, web surfing and the odd old game and they want to spend as little as possible. Their best bet is go to a big box or even the Dell web site and get an e-machine or something. What you get at the entry level price point changes all the time and it gets better all the time. It can be hard to mess up.

I probably tell people to get the bottom end machine the most as it most often fills their needs adequately. I have also dealt with several people who didn't ask and now want to know why they can't play the latest games.

Nothing snobbish about it. I am always amazed at how much computer you get at the bottom end prices. If they give you all you need then why waste your money. However, they are all so closely specced and featured that the one that looks the best to you or the one sold by the nicest salesman may be the best way to make your buying decision.

[bigred]

Understood, thx. I guess I want it all, cheap price and great performance. Just trying to figure out where in the middle I am...

[jimlintott]

So.

How about this little baby over here then. Just look at that beautiful blue case. Feel that mouse, go on, feel it. As nice as one of JLo's boobs. How will you be paying for that? For $99 admin fee I can get it interest free for two years. It's like a dollar day. It comes with a free printer but you'll need a cable. How long a cable do you need? I recommend this 6 foot Monster(TM) sure it's $150 but your data never printed better. Should I help you carry it to your car? How many years do you want the extended warranty for? Three, five? I can get you five years for an additional $299. What a deal. It covers everything. If you get drunk and piss on it, it's covered. Did you say you wanted to finance it?

If you hear this. Run away.

[Mongrel]

Originally Posted by Stainless_Steel_Rat

If you're like me however... and want to play F.E.A.R. on high setting's you'll want...
<shameless brag>
DFI Lanparty UT CFX3200-DR Socket 939 ATI CrossFire
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+
CORSAIR XMS 2GB
POWERCOLOR 1900XTX512MB
Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeMusic
2x Western Digital Caviar RE WD2500YD 250GB
Antec TRUEPOWERII TPII-550 ATX12V 550W
Creative Inspire P7800 90 Watts 7.1 Speakers
</shameless brag>

Heh - I've got a similar setup, although with an Asus board, a 4400+ and I've Crossfired my x1900XT. Tax rebates for teh win!!!

[bigred]

Originally Posted by jimlintott

As nice as one of JLo's boobs.

If you hear this. Run away.

You are truly insane. I'm first in line.

[bigred]

PS I notice manufacturers/sellers are REALLY reluctant to just freakin SAY what the clock speed is on CPUs nowdays : pissed: I really miss the old days when they just told you what you were buying up front vs all these goofball names to hide everything....it all started with that GD "Pentium" gibberish, instead of just calling it a 586. Hell we don't even get version numbers of s/w anymore, it's "Win XP" or "Office 2003" etc. puke. Anyway pardon the side rant but it's so stupid.

Anyone have a link to some handy-dandy chart that translates what the more common CPUs are speed-wise, ie Athlon 3700 = 3.0GHz or Celeron D = 2GHz or whatever?

[kevin]

clock speed really is becoming irrelevant these days. The CPU is much faster than the surrounding compnents that if you aren't doing something CPU intensive (think 3D rendering) then it really doesn't matter.

For games, video card and front-side bus is more important than raw cpu speed.

[Stainless_Steel_Rat]

Usually Intel lists the speed, 3.7 whatever... AMD's run at slower clock speeds, but are supposed to be equivelent (sp!) to the intel chip thier number equals (confusing I know.)

So an AMD 4200+ is supposed to be equal or exceed an Intel 4.7Ghz CPU, even though the AMD is only 2.2Ghz. It's becuase they use different computation methods, they can be different clock speeds, but still do the same ammount of work.

Anyways, I'm a bit confused why you're looking so hard at the clock speeds. Since you only plan on playing older games, why do you need a blazing fast CPU?

SSR

[Errata]

Originally Posted by bigred

I call shenanigans. I saw nothing even remotely close to that price for what I'm asking.

I have to settle for what I want from Dell.com (etc) too. I didn't see any "we'll build it to your specs" option. Did I miss it?

Dude, if you didn't even figure out how to customize them, then no wonder you can't find what you want. Its a fairly simple interface. None of the default configurations match precisely what you want, but its not hard to configure one that way.

[jnelso99]

Originally Posted by bigred

You are truly insane. I'm first in line.

Could just get one of these and use your imagination...

http://www.bustymousepads.com/

[egslim]

Originally Posted by bigred

Anyone have a link to some handy-dandy chart that translates what the more common CPUs are speed-wise, ie Athlon 3700 = 3.0GHz or Celeron D = 2GHz or whatever?

Clockspeed doesn't tell you anything about performance, unless you know the underlying architecture. It's about as useful to know as the RPM of a carengine for determining performance.

In the old days Intel and AMD used the same architecture, so clockspeed would be proportional to performance. Nowadays they have completely diverged, so clockspeed has become useless as a metric.

The reason why we have those modelnumbers now is because too many ignorant people compared a 1.4GHz Athlon with a 1.4GHz Pentium 4, instead of the 1.8GHz P4 with which it was performance-comparable.
Of course, a few smart people would take advantage of this by buying a dirt-cheap Athlon.

Quote:

So an AMD 4200+ is supposed to be equal or exceed an Intel 4.7Ghz CPU,

That would be a 4.2GHz Pentium 4.
Anyway, apart from the last AXP models I've found AMD's modelrating modest enough to be accurate. At the same rating P4 does slightly better for videocompression, Athlon64 is superior in games.

edited to add:
You should compare a Semprons' rating to a Celeron and a single core Athlon64's rating to a Pentium 4. Semprons and Athlon64's use a different rating system, just as a 2GHz P4 performs better than a 2GHz Celeron.
Dual core processors are different, because their performance gain comletely depends on wether you use multithreaded software. A dual core can perform anything between slightly worse (due to overhead) or twice as good compared to an equally clocked single core counterpart.

[Zep]

Heh! This is all stuff us big-systems "old guys" went through maybe 10-15 years ago, when SMP was first marketed. Nothing new here...

[kevin]

Originally Posted by egslim

Dual core processors are different, because their performance gain comletely depends on wether you use multithreaded software.

This isn't quite true as dual core will also allow you to run multiple apps (even single threaded ones) simultaneously giving each process its own processor.

[Apollyon]

I'm normally not one to pimp websites, but if you're looking for a deal on a decent Dell system for cheap, this website has links to some great bargains. I ran across it lurking at Arstechnica where the guy who runs it hangs out. Plus this website doesn't sell you the systems but merely provides links to deals so there's no scamming involved. I've been using it for a few years to keep up on bargains.

http://www.gotapex.com/

Example: "DellHome - Dimension E510 Desktop with 2.80GHz Pentium D 820 Dual Core, 512MB DDR2, 80GB HD, CDRW/DVD Combo, and 20" UltraSharp 2007FP Widescreen LCD for $727.35 with FREE Shipping!"

You may not care about horsepower, but a nice big LCD monitor is a definite plus no matter what you use your system for.

There's also: "Update: If you want a higher end system, Dell Business has a Dimension 9150 with 2.8Ghz Pentium D 820, 1GB DDR2 SDRAM, 16x DVD+/-RW Dual Layer Burner, 160GB hard drive, and 17" Dell 1707FP UltraSharp LCD for just $689 with FREE shipping!"

Seems right up your alley.

[egslim]

Originally Posted by kevin

This isn't quite true as dual core will also allow you to run multiple apps (even single threaded ones) simultaneously giving each process its own processor.

Correct, but for someone who says "Oh yeah, I'm not a hard-core gamer or graphics artist (etc) hence I don't need top of the line to say the least." I didn't think that was relevant. No need to make things even more complicated...

[bigred]

Originally Posted by Errata

Dude, if you didn't even figure out how to customize them, then no wonder you can't find what you want. Its a fairly simple interface. None of the default configurations match precisely what you want, but its not hard to configure one that way.

Dude, thanks you've been a big help. Dude, I mean it, like, I'm all, dude.

[bigred]

Originally Posted by Apollyon

I'm normally not one to pimp websites, but if you're looking for a deal on a decent Dell system for cheap, this website has links to some great bargains. I ran across it lurking at Arstechnica where the guy who runs it hangs out. Plus this website doesn't sell you the systems but merely provides links to deals so there's no scamming involved. I've been using it for a few years to keep up on bargains.

http://www.gotapex.com/

Example: "DellHome - Dimension E510 Desktop with 2.80GHz Pentium D 820 Dual Core, 512MB DDR2, 80GB HD, CDRW/DVD Combo, and 20" UltraSharp 2007FP Widescreen LCD for $727.35 with FREE Shipping!"

You may not care about horsepower, but a nice big LCD monitor is a definite plus no matter what you use your system for.

There's also: "Update: If you want a higher end system, Dell Business has a Dimension 9150 with 2.8Ghz Pentium D 820, 1GB DDR2 SDRAM, 16x DVD+/-RW Dual Layer Burner, 160GB hard drive, and 17" Dell 1707FP UltraSharp LCD for just $689 with FREE shipping!"

Seems right up your alley.

Actually I could give a flip about the brand as it's what's under the hood that counts, but this sounds interesting, will check it out - appreciate it!

[kevin]

Originally Posted by egslim

Correct, but for someone who says "Oh yeah, I'm not a hard-core gamer or graphics artist (etc) hence I don't need top of the line to say the least." I didn't think that was relevant. No need to make things even more complicated...

True, but I've most non-computer people prefer the simpler description of "you can run multiple apps faster" than "only get one if you have multi-threaded apps" without also explaining what a multi-threaded app is or which apps are typically multi-threaded.

[Apollyon]

Originally Posted by bigred

Actually I could give a flip about the brand as it's what's under the hood that counts, but this sounds interesting, will check it out - appreciate it!

n/p

I build my own systems and have for 14 years. But for those who don't Dell makes decent systems for the price and has some very nice LCDs as well.

The nice thing about the system I linked is that it doesn't use an integrated video card and has a 16X PCI slot so if you decide that a new game strikes your fancy, or if you need additional video horsepower for another reason, the upgrade path to a new video card is easily done. Plus that 20" LCD would normally cost @ half of the price they are charging for that entire system. It's tough to beat that price for what you get.

[bigred]

Cool. Although I wonder what - all specs being equal, at least on the surface - what the advantage of buying a higher model over a lower one are-? ie I took a 3150 and customized to have upgrades in various ways to the point of looking just like one of the "better" models so offhand it isn't obvious to me what the diff would be-? ie I can save $ this way but wonder what if anything I'm giving up.....

[Apollyon]

The only advantage I can see would be the time saved and avoiding the potential headaches of upgrading the system. For many OEM systems, cracking the case can void the warranty as well.

ETA: My previous post should have said "16X PCIe slot."

[bigred]

Originally Posted by Apollyon

The only advantage I can see would be the time saved and avoiding the potential headaches of upgrading the system. For many OEM systems, cracking the case can void the warranty as well.

ETA: My previous post should have said "16X PCIe slot."

No I mean customizing as in online as part of the process of ordering it....

...but actually as I add em up it's turning out to be little diff if any, and in one case actually cost more to do it this way (?!). Thx

[Apollyon]

Originally Posted by bigred

No I mean customizing as in online as part of the process of ordering it....

...but actually as I add em up it's turning out to be little diff if any, and in one case actually cost more to do it this way (?!). Thx

Sorry. Misunderstood what you meant, obviously.

You often have to be careful. At first glance all the specs may be identical, but the higher-end model may have a higher quality motherboard or other components that may not be apparent on the surface. It's often little things like the hard-drive on the higher-end system may have 16MB of cache whereas the one on the lower-cost system only has 8MB. The higher-end system might have better ram that can run at higher speeds and/or tighter timings, or the video card is a separate component vs integrated video (which uses system ram instead of the dedicatd video ram in a separate card).

There are all kinds of small little gotchas that can add up to make a big difference in performance.

[Errata]

Originally Posted by bigred

Dude, thanks you've been a big help. Dude, I mean it, like, I'm all, dude.

Very mature response. Keep in mind here that you're the one who can't even figure out how to use a simple website designed to be idiot proof.

[bigred]

Originally Posted by Errata

Very mature response.

As opposed to your initial response?

If you can't offer a worthwhile response to a sincere question, don't bother - or worse yet, get huffy when someone doesn't thank you for being an obnoxious punk.

[ZirconBlue]

Originally Posted by bigred

I call shenanigans. I saw nothing even remotely close to that price for what I'm asking.

I have to settle for what I want from Dell.com (etc) too. I didn't see any "we'll build it to your specs" option. Did I miss it?

I don't think anyone's given you a clear answer on this. What you see when you initially look at the prices is sort of the "base model." You can customize any pc you want though (except, perhaps the refurbished ones they sell).

What you do is pick the model that's closest to what you want. Then, as you step through the order process, you are given the opportunity to change pretty much every item on the pc (adding or subtracting cost as you go). You can make changes and see what the total cost is, without actually submitting the order. And you can save the info and come back to it to order later.

As a completely made-up example, the particular model you pick might have 3 processor options in a drop-down menu. One will be the default, while a faster one might be +$25, or a slower one at -$25. You can make similar changes in RAM, video, sound, monitor, software, etc.

I hope this is more helpful for you.

[bigred]

I have since obtained some links but greatly appreciate the response. Extra thx to Apollyon for all the help as well.