Taking your Soul back....

5th February 2003, 09:23 PM

I noticed that many of you guys here are of riped age, aand need to knnow this before your time will fade away. This is not a question and answer post, but an educational post.. Its VERY VERY long, but read this, for it might save your soul........

Is God real? What is God(s)? Which God? Why should we worship him and How? the point?

For many centuries, it is in human nature to worship and treasure someone or something, we dont settle down by natural means (natural in a sense of tegetherness, food, and violence for survival), for us that is not enough, we have a "strong emotion" that drives us to look for "something else"...

"Apart from God we are lost"....Ever since the sin of Adam and Eve, human race have been separated from the connection with God...

Take all the world cultures for example (lets leave religion out for a moment). For thousands of years (historically speaking), humans have always found something to lay their strong emotions to, if they see a cow in front of them, then sory cow your gonna be worshipped, if its the way they eat, then eating wont just be as easy but must wash hands, bow down, take sandals out, etc. as it is in many cultures from japan to europe.
It is like when you have a girlfriend whom you dearly love, and when she leaves you, you need a rebound otherwise you will be extremely deppressed because you will not be able to express the strong emotion she gave you...

Take all the world cultures and observe them, from the west to the east, from natives in south america to japan. Observe and learn that people feel lost unless there is something or someone they lay their heart to, human interactions isnt enough, or even food, we crave for more..If that emotions isnt settled in religion, it is settled in sports, in science, or in fashion and materials...
In japan, people are very well disciplined, there is strict rules you have to follow before and after meals, greeting high postion people..But whats the point? Why does the human race do these? Does reasons even have room here? You know why, because we feel lost if we dont make rituals and practices, thats a strong emotion that we have...
ALL cultures are a slave to worship of "something something" otherwise we feel lost without such practice...

You guys dont understand the concept of "God" and gods..

There are many gods...Some gods are immortal, some gods arent, some gods are 1000 years old trees, some gods are 80 yrs old man...There is a god called "Belzebul" in the old, the hindu gods, etc.
Anything can be a god, thats how they refer to back then as something you worship, trust, hope, and treasure in your heart, and that can mean anyone and anything...
You might think that People back then are crazy to die for a god which is a statue of goat made out of gold and silver. A goat is made for food, but why do they go beyond the norm? Are people then really weird? Let's see....They are willing to die for it, worship it (by treasuring it dearly in their hearts), make songs about it, talk highly of it, they will even kill for it such as offering human sacrifice, whatever.

What about today? We have cars, which we used for transportation, do we go beyond the nomrs like what people back then do? Let's see...We hope that we can achieve better cars, better engine, we worship and treasure some cars, some of us are willing to die to obtain it, sacrifice marriage, even moral values..You will steal to get them, cheat, even some will kill to own a ferrari, or 1 million dollars. Some of us talk highly about cars, we even make songs dedicated to cars with nice grills etc., take the rappers for example like Ludacris...this is the SPIRITS of the world.. I guess people back then isnt that weird after all, we are no better than them...This is what we call "IDOLATRY"..."Thou shall not have other gods before me"- Bible..

Again there are many gods, and the practices along with those gods are abomination to the real God, the truth. How is the God of Abraham the real God? In other words How is the God of humble, hardworking, faithfull, loving, and kind men the true God?
Because His ways are the right way to live, proper way of living, civilized manner, as a true father wants the best for his children, just as a true God will not teach us to hate each other and steal each others' goods...But then again, over the centuries, the human race have different concept of God, just as a kid has different concept of things until he matures...I will explain more later....

Why should I worship "God" and how? Whats the point?

Why is it so important to worship the "God" of Abraham? Or the christian God? Why cant I worship the ferrari god, or the cow god, or the snoop doggy dog god? What about the girls gone wild video tape god, why cant I worship them instead? Whats wrong with them?

Sofa or Television is not a sin, it is the love of Sofa and Television that makes it a sin...Also, it is not the thing or the something that you worship that makes it a sin. It is the result of it that makes it a sin.

What is the result of worship in Karma Sutra? Perversion, which leads to saccrifice of human life, from losing family, to disrespecting women, rape in some case, losing focus in the meaning of life, etc..What is the result of worshipping a "violent" God? Violence, murder, justified because of their god, this is evident in the bible because they thought God is a violent God, and even today, this is visible through the muslim..What you "worship" in your heart, n other words what you treasure in your heart is where your god is, and what your god do is what you do..
For instance, if you worship Arnold Schwarzennerger, or Marvel Super Heroes, you immediately wanted to be buff and muscular, because they are your role model, and their action is the virtue in which you found appealing...

So why is it so important to worship the Christian God? Because worshipping Jesus means worshipping his deeds, and action, and what he do..And that is the virtues, beatitudes, moral guidelines, etc.

We can be saved through love and the virtues. Whether you carry the title "buddhism" or "hinduism", but you are judged by your virtues, your quality. However, it is very unlikely and unprobably for someone to worship SNOOP DOG or MTV and have good virtues, is NOT perverted, and is very patient, because the MTV god doesnt teach any of that..
FOR ANYONE TO CLAIM THAT THEY REJECT THE WORSHIP OF CHRIST, AND HAVE VIRTUES IN THEM BY WORSHIPPING PERVERTED MTV, THEY ARE A LIAR, TO ME IT IS VERY UNPROBABLE AND UNLIKELY...EVEN THE GOVERNMENT TEACHES THAT WHAT WE SEE, AND WHAT WE HEAR AFFECTS WHAT WE DO...

"See no evil, hear no evil, and SPEAK NO evil"...If you dont hear and see evil, then you will not DO EVIL EITHER BY TALKING, OR ACTING...

So what is my evidence that the Christian God, and the God of Abraham is the one and only true God?

The love he have shown, "As a true Father wants the best for His children and would willing to give up his very life to save him" just as a true God will do the same for his children...No other so-caled Gods have given the profound laws and guidelines effective in governing as Jesus did..

Another is that there is only One God, because all the other cultures, and religion, is not like the christians..
When the apostles were taught of the gospel, they were instructed to keep the event to themselves and tell others about it at a certain time. But people have so much conviction and excitement that they disobeyed Jesus and told everyone they met anyways, they testified Jesus healing, his words, and what he do..

Till this day, this tradition is carried out, ONLY CHRISTIANS IN THE WORLD RELIGION ARE SO CONFIDENT THAT JESUS IS THE LORD THAT THEY WILL GO IN EVERY CORNERS OF THE EARTH TO PROCLAIM IT, THEY ARE SO OVERWHELMED THAT THEY CANNOT KEEP IT TO THEMSELF...That proves that genuinity of our faith, the buddhist, the muslims, and other religions doesnt have that conviction, AS HISTORY SHOWS, even buddhism complains of the westerners evangelizing their own people...

For centuries many thought God is evil, cruel, and careless, and because of that, He dont exist. But Jesus calrified the truth........

"Tell them that they are wrong about sin and they are wrong about God's judgment"- Jesus..

"A new commandment, that I give unto you, that yu love one another, as I have loved you. For this I know then, that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another.."- Jesus..

5th February 2003, 09:32 PM

Atheists say that religion causes war & disunity, therefore we must get rid of it, but does this make sense? Let us observe & see...

Life itself is religion, and each and every single one of us is a church (Body is the temple of God..).......If one cannot appreciate religion but rejects or hates it, such individual rejects and hates human kind as well..........

If one choses not to be under the rules and regulations of one religion, such individual "decides" to make a religion in his own temple (mind and body)....He will absorb many beliefs and knowledge, some knowledge based purely on faith, others based purely on facts......This persons name is John, and John is the name of the religion, John have his own church, his own mind and body.....

He believes that taking drugs and abusing it is harmfull, a belief based on fact...Some of his beliefs are based purely on facts, others are based purely on faith... He believes that medical science is effective, a belief based on fact...He also believes that UFO and aliens are real, based purely on faith....He also believes quantum mechanics is a fact, a belief based purely on faith (theories).......etc....

Many have said that there are many religions, 9 major ones today..In Christianity, there are about 27,000 denominations...In Buddhism, there are also thousands, and the same for Hinduism...

I say there are 15 billion people, and there is also 15 billion religions.......Nationalism is an example of religion, it contains musical song dedicated and praising the country (national anthem), it has rituals (gun shots, marching, certain rules and regulations), symbols (flags), its own members (senate, president, governor, etc.)....Human existence is the same way, each and every single one of us have our own style of doing things, how we drive, how we talk, how we give ourselves self-esteem (self-glorification), etc...

Life is a religion........

But how can we put an all knowing, all powerfull, eternal entity (God) in the realm of ignorance, no self-control, perishable world?

Life is a religion, but life is also an order......

For instance...When you are lonely, having no family to love you, your mind takes care of what you have missing...It may come in a form of imagination (day dream: or sleep dream) where you fantasize about a happy family, a mother and father who understands you, and loves you.....

When you drive a rugged ghetto jacked up car and people dont give you attention because of it (or negative attention), then your mind takes care of what you have missing as well, then you began to day dream of owning a nicer, faster car, a car that will cause people to like you...

This is just one of many many many many (AND I MEAN "MANY") examples I can set to prove that life is an order, independent, and self-sufficient....

What is the point of all these? The point is, if life is an order, then religion is also an order...And order have levels.........

For instance, the level of imagining to obtain a gold plated pencil is not in the same level of obtaining a gold plated mansion house....If you imagine owning a gold plated pencil, you can possibly get that at this moment, but that wont be the case for a gold plated mansion house.........(Remember this is just an analogy, you can use another analogy where one is not valued by its mass, but quality, such as diamonds, valued by its carat,and clarity...)

Another example of order is the animal species (or you can say the "brain", levels of intelligence..)....There are levels of species..Let us make up our own level just as an example...........

Let us just say that the cockroach is the lowest, then the one above that is the salamander, above that is the snake, above the snake is the racoon, above the racoon is the cat, then the lion, then the bear, then the elephant, then the whales, then the human species....By far we claim to be the highest, and we are the highest.......We have the power to wipe them all out, the power to do to them as we please (taming, or slaughtering...)

There are many religions (billions) because life is an order. If life is NOT an order, then there will only be one religion, one truth, where there is no close substitute, but that is not the case today, because life is an order, self-sufficient, and independent (humans having freewill and independence).
Ill clarify one more time, if life is chaos, then there will only be one religion and no freewill....

Understand this....If life came to existence from sub-atomic particles, to atoms, to molecules, to a single cell, to animal species, to human life, then this statement is proposing that life is "ONE DIRECTION", therefore we cannot have freewill, AND THERE MUST ONLY BE ONE RELIGION, one truth.........But that is not the case, because life is an order.......

In summary, if your expecting one religion, then your hallucinating...Life didnt just come to existence because the sub-atomic particles became atom, then it became molecules, then singled cell life forms...etc...Its not that simple, theres all forms of physics behind it, and intelligent guidance, or "pure luck", either way its for you to believe.......

What Im trying to point out here is that if atheists ask that in order for God to exist, then there must only be one religion and one church. That maybe true if we dont have freewill, but we do have freewill..Therefore its impossible to have one church...

It is only logical that many religions exist...It is only logical that human race attempted to "Design" an organization to search for the truth, we call this individuals "prophets"....It is only logical that this individuals put so much effort into it, some religion makes more sense, others are just plain stupid (atheism, who claims to find the truth..)...

But with all the prophets efforts of attempting to search for the truth, many are willing to die for finding that truth, then there must be a truth....
Some maybe close to finding it, others are not even close (like atheism)........

Almost all religions claim to be the "True church", but there is only "one true church" and the others are either just close to it, or not at all.........

Our mission is to seek and find that true church...."Seek and you shall find"- Jesus....

But if your too impatient, self-centered (so focus on pleasure.) greedy, stupid, then you are not willing to put any efforts on finding that true church, and if your not willing to, THEN MAYBE YOU DONT DESERVE TO FIND IT, you have to look for it first before you can find it......

Nobody is born in the true church...One must seek it himself...For instance, many who claimed to be christians, or former christians are ignorant about their faith, therefore they are not really christians........

You must educate yourself and learn what is the true church, before you can find it........If a person based his religion on pure faith, then that person has not put any efforts into finding it, and if he didnt put any efforts because he have no patience, too caught up in the things of the world, then maybe he dont deserve to find the truth.......

In summary, there are many religions, but there must only be "One true religion", just as there are many animal species, but there is only one ultimate species (the human species...). We can have the visions of any species, we can fly, be strong, all this is possible with our intelligence.......

In summary, look for the true church, I cannot tell you this, for if I tell you, you will not believe me.......Then you will begin judging the people's sin in the church, etc.....So look for it yourself......

But Ill give you this..........Jesus warned of the false prophets in the future, when the apostles asked him how we would know that they are false, we know it by their works........WE KNOW THE TEACHING IS FALSE BY THEIR WORKS............

For instance, atheism and many organizations promote abortion, and that the babies inside are not humans but just a blob of tissue, is this the truth???? We can even abort 9 month old babies even, as long as they are in the womb, they are not humans............They say this because if they said it is "humans", then it will be given human rights, thus we cant kill them anymore, because of this, they say it is just a blob of tissue.........

From abortion what did it lead to? Euthanasia, if your old, unwanted, and useless...You deserve to die............

Whats next? The handicap? The crippled? The blind??

You know what this sounds like? THE THIRD REIGHT OF ADOLF HITLER................Where jews are not pure humans, jus as the blacks were considered 1/4 humans many years ago, thus making slavery legal...........

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Since atheists are so anti-religion (churches particularly) because they believe religion causes wars, terror, murder, hate, etc... for the sake of the argument, let us just say that we were succesfull in abolishing all religions completely. Now there is no muslim, no christians, no buddhism........

Now how do you deal with the others in disunity? Raider's fan beating on 49'ers fan...Norte shot and killed a surreno, he hates this guy because he wears red, while the other hates the other because he wears blue, 2 different beliefs. One guy beeat another guy, because he believe its ok to get drunk, while the other believes it is wrong to abuse one's body and promote that act to others. A rapper shot and killed a heavy metal artist, because he believes rap music is best influencing teens, then the other also shot him back because he believe that heavy metal is better....Democracy, Communism, Republican, chinese, asian, black, white puerto rican, rap, gothic, prep.......I can probably set MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of examples of organizations and division, so how do you deal with these now??

Thats why I still believed in Christianity, that we must be able to see the good in every individual, and learn to love them the way they are, only in this way we can find peace......But in Christianity there is also many denominations, which one to pick? Again it is for you to look, for if I tell you the answer, you will not believe (since I know many of you here are poisoned by lies so many times already)............

5th February 2003, 09:43 PM

"You said that the bible must not be taken literally, but some can be, but whos suppose to have the RIGHT to interpret one, and take the other literally?"- atheist..

Thats why its important to learn the history of the church.. Where did the bible come from? The Universal community (Catholic in latin, "church" as group of believers.) first founded in Rome italy...

The magisterium and the fathers of the church compiled the bible, they decided what scrolls must be printed there (for there are many scrolls that the bible dont have). Therefore it is the Holy see that have the right to interpret the bible...
Do you even know what is the first purpose of the bible? It is compiled for the mass, because before it was compiled, there were many scrolls and some are too old so decided to put it into one book, the bible when beipng read, the priest always MAKE HIS TRANSLATION, AND WHAT THE HOLY SEE BELIEVEIT MEANS....One church, one body.....

When you use the word "The Roman Catholic Church did this or did that""...Then I assume you must be educated in the R.C.C...

How educated are you in the R.C.C? The same church who have members that founded universities, among them is Georgetown, NotreDame, and many others....

If you say it is the Roman Catholic Church that did the crusades, then that is like saying the U.S government have sex with Monica Lewinski.....

First before making the claim that the U.S did it, you must present a bill that the senates pass, if its constitutional, and if its a law, then you can say the Government did it...That is likewise for the R.C.C....

The R.C.C is composed of this...

1.) Holy Scriptures (Many many books written by saints, the bible is ONE OF THEM, Catechsim, Lumengentium, etc. & other books as well that are "Imprimatured" or "nihil obstat" meaning checked and free of moral errors..)

2.) Holy Tradition (Like Jesus who wears the synagogues, this is very important because we are heirs of Abraham, and King David, thus continuing the legacy of the faith from the start (mustard seed).)

3.) Canon law (This is like the constitution. This is the infallible teachings of the church, where we go to these if there are any disputes among the members...)

4.) Magisterium (Pope united with the bishops... This is where "Dogma" are being propagated, having full investigation on things, scientifically, or historically..)

That is what is composed of the Roman Catholic church. When bishop hides a child molester from public, that is NOT IN THE CANON LAW, OR APPROVAL BY THE POPE BUT AN INDEPENDENT ACT I CAN UNDERSTAND FULLY AS A HUMAN SPECIES... Maybe they were friends, and he just wanted to defend him, but this is not the "ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH ACT".....

Furtheremore, the crusades or the inquisition...First youhave to educate yurself in History...For instance, why did Cortez came back and wiped out almost all of the aztec indians? He is a roman catholic, but he is an individual..
First when he arrived in South America, they were captured by the indians, and 4 of his friends were offered to the gods and killed, Cortez escaped with full hatred...Returning to spain, he came back with so much militia and vengeance, that he almost killed all of them...

The same with Magellan in Phillipines... His followersraped and stole gold and women, then uses the name of "CHURCH" tto cover up their disgusting act...The muslims killed Magellan...But those who escaped came back to spain, then came back to kill almost all of them, thus colonizing the country...

The pope was even involve on this, BUT THIS IS NOT THE CHURCH THAT DID IT, BECAUSE ALL OF THE BISHOPS MUST AGREE ON THIS, THEN DOCUMENT IT, THEN WILL BE WRITTEN IN CANON LAW, OR BECOME A DOGMA, BUT NONE OF THIS ARE PERMITTED IN EITHER THE BOOK....

For instance, St. Joan of Arc, she was a catholic (now a saint) and was hanged and burned to death by the bishop, accusing her of witchcraft falsely...
THIS WAS AN INDEPENDENT ACT, THE POPE WASNT AWARE OF THIS UNTIL LATER IN YEARS.....

note: I am a catechist teacher, If u want to ask about the eucharist, is it logical to say God is really present there? The virgin birth, scientific proof of God, etc. Then ask away........

5th February 2003, 09:54 PM

Ahh, more posts about "what atheists believe".

I personally could care less if you want to worship Gods or Keebler Elves. If it makes you happy, then do enjoy your fantasies all you like.

I'm sure that it can seem very much like "life is religion" if you make religion all your life is about.

thaiboxerken · 5th February 2003, 09:59 PM

There isn't any scientific evidence of god. That's part of the reason I'm atheist. Another reason I'm atheist is because I actually read the christian bible.

Please, lose your god beliefs before you go insane...... oh, I'm too late huh?

Doctor X · 5th February 2003, 10:11 PM

So, if I take a little knife and insert it in your brain stem roughly at the level of the mesencephapic-metencephalic junction [Stop it! "Midbrain" and "pons"--Ed] thereby transecting your ascending reticular activating system, thus obliterating your consciousness and your ability to ever regain consciousness, though not damaging your hemispheres in any way . . . what has happened to your soul?

Kids, if you try this at homel, make sure you wash your hands first. . . .

--J.D.

Doctor X · 5th February 2003, 10:15 PM

. . . and ask Mommy first if you can borrow her buckknife. . . .

--J.D.

5th February 2003, 10:56 PM

well atleast when you die, you cant blaim anyone but yourself, for now you already know...

And Dave, LOL, your right, virtue is all there is to my life (religion) and I apply it wherevere I go, when I go to parties, play sports, go to school, or even date...What virtues do you have? Its ok to be gay?

Doctor X · 5th February 2003, 11:03 PM

I am afraid I must recognize that as an inability to address the topic.

--J.D.

5th February 2003, 11:16 PM

Doctor X,

I know not much about the soul..
I know that its eternal (as energy cannot be destroyed), I know that we cant detect it (as we cant detect sub-atomic particles anything beyond 300,000,000 m/s.).
I also know that what we can detect is the weakest form of energy (a stopped energy). Therefore a soul is a very potent version of what we label as "physical"..
Though when you destroy the body's mechanism, when it breaks down, the soul departs.. It can only return if the body is fully operational (which we call ""ressurection".)
There are people who are in coma, and many have claimed to have seen their own body (soul departing), however, SKEPTICS "THEORIZED" that it was just brain consciousness (imagination), BUT WHO DO I BELIEVE? THE PERSON IN WHICH IT HAPPENED TO? OR THE PERS0N WHO MADE A THEORY ABOUT IT???

MRC_Hans · 5th February 2003, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by muscleman
well atleast when you die, you cant blaim anyone but yourself, for now you already know...

Ayee, repent ye sinners, for I have shown thou The Light!

And Dave, LOL, your right, virtue is all there is to my life (religion) and I apply it wherevere I go, when I go to parties, play sports, go to school, or even date...

Yeah, I once hadda friend like that ....

What virtues do you have? Its ok to be gay?

Well, obviously humility and tolerance are NOT among Muscleman's virtues, but I guess it takes a saint to have them all

Hans

Doctor X · 5th February 2003, 11:28 PM

Quote:

I know not much (sic) about the soul..
I know that its eternal

Ipse dixit The existence of such has not been established, and the question posed has been ignored.

Quote:

I know that we cant (sic) detect it (as we cant (sic) detect sub-atomic particles anything beyond 300,000,000 m/s.).

I will leave the physicist to criticise that mistake, nevertheless, it remains a "I-am-sure-it-exists-but-no-evidence-of-it-exists."

This, of course, is a variation of the Squeaky the Bunny Hypothesis [All Rights Reserved.--Ed.]

Squeaky, of course, is the invisible bunny that you cannot feel, who controls your movements without you knowing it.

Incidentally:

Quote:

I also know that what we can detect is the weakest form of energy (a stopped energy). Therefore a soul is a very potent version of what we label as "physical"..

The second does not follow at all from the first.

Quote:

Though when you destroy the body's mechanism, when it breaks down, the soul departs.. It can only return if the body is fully operational (which we call ""ressurection (sic)".)

While I perhaps remain thankfully ignorant of the identity of this "we," I will note that this is contradicted by the scientific rhetorical I pos'd above.

Quote:

There are people who are in coma, and many have claimed to have seen their own body (soul departing), . . .

People in a coma do not claim anything.

Quote:

. . . however, SKEPTICS "THEORIZED"

Note the attempt to Poison the Well with the use of "." . . . or is that use of ""?

Quote:

that it was just brain consciousness (imagination),

Consciousness is not the same as imagination.

Quote:

BUT WHO DO I BELIEVE? THE PERSON IN WHICH IT HAPPENED TO?

Lack of antecedant to the pronoun prevents conveyence of point.

Quote:

OR THE PERS0N WHO MADE A THEORY ABOUT IT???

Unfortunately, enough is know about the basic mechanism, as pos'd above, to move beyond the attempted slight of "theory."

The question remains pending.

--J.D.

MRC_Hans · 5th February 2003, 11:33 PM

Quote:

There are people who are in coma, and many have claimed to have seen their own body (soul departing), however, SKEPTICS "THEORIZED" that it was just brain consciousness (imagination), BUT WHO DO I BELIEVE? THE PERSON IN WHICH IT HAPPENED TO? OR THE PERS0N WHO MADE A THEORY ABOUT IT???

Mmm, interesting question. I had a friend who tried LSD (this was in '68); afterwards, he told me that he had seen the road as a river with barges slowly drifting. He jumped in and began to swim across, but collided with one of the "barges". He woke up in hospital, rather badly bruised.

Now, my friend could describe his perception of the river and the gaudily painted boats and barges in vivid detail, but the "skeptic" police report described him walking into a trafficked street, waving his arms, and getting hit by a car. Which should we believe?

I read about a doctor who was giving her patients some treatment that regularly gave them Out of Body Experiences (OBE). After having heard enough of them describing how their "souls" floated around under the ceiling looking down on their body and the doctor working on it, she placed a message in such a way that it would be very conspicuous from a viewer near the ceiling, but invisible from anybody on the floor. Interestingly, nobody reported observing it during OBEs.

Hans

(edited to correct some of the typos)

Doctor X · 5th February 2003, 11:41 PM

No fair bringing evidence into the discusion!

--J.D.

MRC_Hans · 5th February 2003, 11:44 PM

I do apologize!

Who was it that said: "My mind is made up, so don't confuse me with facts"?

Hans

iain · 6th February 2003, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
I do apologize!

Who was it that said: "My mind is made up, so don't confuse me with facts"?

Hans

Almost anyone on these forums?

c4ts · 6th February 2003, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Is God real? What is God(s)? Which God? Why should we worship him and How? the point?

I'm afraid those questions are circular reasoning.

"Is God real?" is fine. "What is God?" is fine. "Which God?" is unusual, because it doesn't seem to relate to "Is God real?" in a monotheistic sense. "Why should we worship him and how?" is the problem, because it implies "is God real?" was answered with "yes," it also requires that "what is god?" was partially answered with "a male that should be worshipped in some way or another." "The point?" refers to the point of worship, which assumes that there now is a way to worship the existing God, but that way may or may not have a point. Since, you've already answered your questions, why bother asking them? You have no knowedge to gain for yourself, just a re-affirmation of your belief at best, which is not likely at this forum unless you ignore or try to refute each response. Sadly, the rest of your post makes about as much sense to me as the end of a Chick tract, and seems to have equal footing in reality. But I could be wrong.

Quote:

For many centuries, it is in human nature to worship and treasure someone or something, we dont settle down by natural means (natural in a sense of tegetherness, food, and violence for survival), for us that is not enough, we have a "strong emotion" that drives us to look for "something else"...

Emotions are common to all living things, not specifically part of human nature, as our desire to understand our surroundings and our tendency to band together. You say we do not settle down by natural means, and try to treat a desire to understand (a drive to look for "something else," presumably a means of explanation that is not immediately at hand) as some sort of emotion. But emotions appear to be common to all animals, whereas the desire to understand does not, although it may be the cause of emotions. Also, we do appear to settle down by natural means, if not in cities, at least in tribes or factions. Furthermore, it would seem that human nature to worship or treasure someone would have this effect on our species, if you say that it is also human nature to defend who or what what they worship or treasure.

Quote:

"Apart from God we are lost"....Ever since the sin of Adam and Eve, human race have been separated from the connection with God...

Now you are confusing mythology with the truth. Truth is, we don't know what happened before this exact second, but we have so much evidence provided by things we call "memory," "archaeology," "written history," and "anthropology," all of which seem to be consistent with one another. They may not be exact, they may even be lies, but since they are coherent and provide something which we skeptics call
"evidence," they are somewhat more valid than myth or conjecture, which may also be lies. In order to claim the Athens of Ancient Greece existed, something like the Parthenon or Acropolis is used to support that claim in conjunction with the writings of the so-called "Ancient Greeks" that are still available (and that's not even the bare minimum according to some). If you wanted to assume that Adam and Eve were true, you'd need something like God's giant flaming sword that turns every which way to cast the man out of Eden, and maybe some cherubim at the gate. Nobody has found anything that conclusive regarding that story, but look at all the stuff we found in Greece.

Quote:

Take all the world cultures for example (lets leave religion out for a moment). For thousands of years (historically speaking), humans have always found something to lay their strong emotions to, if they see a cow in front of them, then sory cow your gonna be worshipped, if its the way they eat, then eating wont just be as easy but must wash hands, bow down, take sandals out, etc. as it is in many cultures from japan to europe.

Those customs seem unrelated the way you describe them. Different countries have different rituals. There's more than one religion. So what?

Quote:

It is like when you have a girlfriend whom you dearly love, and when she leaves you, you need a rebound otherwise you will be extremely deppressed because you will not be able to express the strong emotion she gave you...

Nope. Love is not necessarily reciprocating. I learned that from experience. Sometimes you find you love someone else more, or that you never really loved your girlfriend anyway, or that feeling you had that you said was gonna last forever didn't after all the awkward high school sex, or you realize you two really just hate each other, so the relationship is terminated in a way that is not depressing. But since it's just a statement of experience, it's no more valid than what you said.

Quote:

There are many gods...Some gods are immortal, some gods arent, some gods are 1000 years old trees, some gods are 80 yrs old man...There is a god called "Belzebul" in the old, the hindu gods, etc.
Anything can be a god, thats how they refer to back then as something you worship, trust, hope, and treasure in your heart, and that can mean anyone and anything...
You might think that People back then are crazy to die for a god which is a statue of goat made out of gold and silver. A goat is made for food, but why do they go beyond the norm? Are people then really weird? Let's see....They are willing to die for it, worship it (by treasuring it dearly in their hearts), make songs about it, talk highly of it, they will even kill for it such as offering human sacrifice, whatever.

So you are basically saying that theism causes immorality. You've also assumed that similar syllables in different languages have exactly the same meaning. There's an english word "see,"
and a Spanish word "ci." The similarity has no more meaning than "Bezebul" or whatever you want to call it because you want to accuse the Hindus of worshipping "Belzebub." And who the hell worships statues these days anyway? Isolated North African and Micronesian tribes? Also, these things are trivial compared to what Christians have done in the name of their god for ages. Why aren't they mentioned?

Quote:

Again there are many gods, and the practices along with those gods are abomination to the real God, the truth. How is the God of Abraham the real God? In other words How is the God of humble, hardworking, faithfull, loving, and kind men the true God?
Because His ways are the right way to live, proper way of living, civilized manner, as a true father wants the best for his children, just as a true God will not teach us to hate each other and steal each others' goods...But then again, over the centuries, the human race have different concept of God, just as a kid has different concept of things until he matures...I will explain more later....

You've already answered your initial questions for yourself. Also, the concept of God is exactly that: a concept. If there are multiple gods in existence, the "one true god" of monotheism is a lie, because all those gods you mentioned cannot be gods, yet you first postulated their existence as gods, and it is unreasonable to negate your own postulate.

Quote:

You guys dont understand the concept of "God" and gods..

There are many gods...Some gods are immortal, some gods arent, some gods are 1000 years old trees, some gods are 80 yrs old man...There is a god called "Belzebul" in the old, the hindu gods, etc.
Anything can be a god, thats how they refer to back then as something you worship, trust, hope, and treasure in your heart, and that can mean anyone and anything...
You might think that People back then are crazy to die for a god which is a statue of goat made out of gold and silver. A goat is made for food, but why do they go beyond the norm? Are people then really weird? Let's see....They are willing to die for it, worship it (by treasuring it dearly in their hearts), make songs about it, talk highly of it, they will even kill for it such as offering human sacrifice, whatever.

What about today? We have cars, which we used for transportation, do we go beyond the nomrs like what people back then do? Let's see...We hope that we can achieve better cars, better engine, we worship and treasure some cars, some of us are willing to die to obtain it, sacrifice marriage, even moral values..You will steal to get them, cheat, even some will kill to own a ferrari, or 1 million dollars. Some of us talk highly about cars, we even make songs dedicated to cars with nice grills etc., take the rappers for example like Ludacris...this is the SPIRITS of the world.. I guess people back then isnt that weird after all, we are no better than them...This is what we call "IDOLATRY"..."Thou shall not have other gods before me"- Bible..

Again there are many gods, and the practices along with those gods are abomination to the real God, the truth. How is the God of Abraham the real God? In other words How is the God of humble, hardworking, faithfull, loving, and kind men the true God?
Because His ways are the right way to live, proper way of living, civilized manner, as a true father wants the best for his children, just as a true God will not teach us to hate each other and steal each others' goods...But then again, over the centuries, the human race have different concept of God, just as a kid has different concept of things until he matures...I will explain more later....

Why should I worship "God" and how? Whats the point?

Why is it so important to worship the "God" of Abraham? Or the christian God? Why cant I worship the ferrari god, or the cow god, or the snoop doggy dog god? What about the girls gone wild video tape god, why cant I worship them instead? Whats wrong with them?

Sofa or Television is not a sin, it is the love of Sofa and Television that makes it a sin...Also, it is not the thing or the something that you worship that makes it a sin. It is the result of it that makes it a sin.

What is the result of worship in Karma Sutra? Perversion, which leads to saccrifice of human life, from losing family, to disrespecting women, rape in some case, losing focus in the meaning of life, etc..What is the result of worshipping a "violent" God? Violence, murder, justified because of their god, this is evident in the bible because they thought God is a violent God, and even today, this is visible through the muslim..What you "worship" in your heart, n other words what you treasure in your heart is where your god is, and what your god do is what you do..
For instance, if you worship Arnold Schwarzennerger, or Marvel Super Heroes, you immediately wanted to be buff and muscular, because they are your role model, and their action is the virtue in which you found appealing...

So why is it so important to worship the Christian God? Because worshipping Jesus means worshipping his deeds, and action, and what he do..And that is the virtues, beatitudes, moral guidelines, etc.

We can be saved through love and the virtues. Whether you carry the title "buddhism" or "hinduism", but you are judged by your virtues, your quality. However, it is very unlikely and unprobably for someone to worship SNOOP DOG or MTV and have good virtues, is NOT perverted, and is very patient, because the MTV god doesnt teach any of that..
FOR ANYONE TO CLAIM THAT THEY REJECT THE WORSHIP OF CHRIST, AND HAVE VIRTUES IN THEM BY WORSHIPPING PERVERTED MTV, THEY ARE A LIAR, TO ME IT IS VERY UNPROBABLE AND UNLIKELY...EVEN THE GOVERNMENT TEACHES THAT WHAT WE SEE, AND WHAT WE HEAR AFFECTS WHAT WE DO...

"See no evil, hear no evil, and SPEAK NO evil"...If you dont hear and see evil, then you will not DO EVIL EITHER BY TALKING, OR ACTING...

So what is my evidence that the Christian God, and the God of Abraham is the one and only true God?

The love he have shown, "As a true Father wants the best for His children and would willing to give up his very life to save him" just as a true God will do the same for his children...No other so-caled Gods have given the profound laws and guidelines effective in governing as Jesus did..

Another is that there is only One God, because all the other cultures, and religion, is not like the christians..
When the apostles were taught of the gospel, they were instructed to keep the event to themselves and tell others about it at a certain time. But people have so much conviction and excitement that they disobeyed Jesus and told everyone they met anyways, they testified Jesus healing, his words, and what he do..

Till this day, this tradition is carried out, ONLY CHRISTIANS IN THE WORLD RELIGION ARE SO CONFIDENT THAT JESUS IS THE LORD THAT THEY WILL GO IN EVERY CORNERS OF THE EARTH TO PROCLAIM IT, THEY ARE SO OVERWHELMED THAT THEY CANNOT KEEP IT TO THEMSELF...That proves that genuinity of our faith, the buddhist, the muslims, and other religions doesnt have that conviction, AS HISTORY SHOWS, even buddhism complains of the westerners evangelizing their own people...

For centuries many thought God is evil, cruel, and careless, and because of that, He dont exist. But Jesus calrified the truth........

"Tell them that they are wrong about sin and they are wrong about God's judgment"- Jesus..

"A new commandment, that I give unto you, that yu love one another, as I have loved you. For this I know then, that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another.."- Jesus..

"Love" does not include imposing your beliefs on others. Imposing your beliefs on others has another name: "biggotry." If your religion is constructed so that love equals biggotry, then it is unlikely that your God is anywere near "true." I remind you that no amount of belief can change fact, and that your god is (in your own style of capitalization) NOT FACT (I remind you that I am not using sophist logic, that "not fact" does not necessarily mean "false.") For, if your god were fact, then belief or disbelief would make no difference to him, since a) his laws would be natural and universal b) there is no need to demand obedience for laws which you involuntarily "obey" (you can discuss that with Franko). By your example, it appears that "God" is really just a way to pretend to know how things work so you can stop questioning and get on with your warm and fuzzy life. No knowledge of God is real knowledge. No amount of belief amounts to any knowledge whatsoever. Man desires knowledge, and knowledge really exists. Man turns to God, man does not recieve knowledge, he gets sophistry from people like you. He just feels happy in his oblivion toward the world and his attitude toward God anyway, man never realizes what he's missed out on before he dies. He has only questioned as far as how to do his job and what to think when he's not doing his job. And by the way, based on the world at hand, intuition or feeling has no effect whatsoever on a 50/50 situation such as Pascal's little wager, and the existence of things such as human imagination stack the odds against the fool who knows what God is, for if there is some sort of God, it may have nothing to do with what you "know". And accusing other gods of being false isn't going to help you at all if one of them turns out to be real and not yours, and since other gods outnumber yours, the probability favors any god but yours. (For example, assuming there is a god, and there are 10 possible gods, you have a 9 in 10 chance of being wrong, and if you insult all other possible gods by calling them false, you have a 9 in 10 chance of being poorly recieved by that god. But I suppose probability doesn't matter to the believer until it's too late.)

And, just to warn you, if you make a bunch of random claims on this board and don't provide evidence while assuming you right, or even make the attempt to use logic to support those claims, you may recieve the honorable title of

CWL · 6th February 2003, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
There isn't any scientific evidence of god. That's part of the reason I'm atheist. Another reason I'm atheist is because I actually read the christian bible.

Fully agreed. But don't forget the Theodicy Problem. That one is really the final nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned.

The Fool · 6th February 2003, 04:01 AM

Muscleman.

Most of what you write is rather confusing, the bits in capitals are more interesting than the bits that are not. Have you considered typing your entire posts in capitals In order to make it all interesting? Whenever I start to post stuff like yours I find soaking my head in very salty water helps reduce the swelling and I no longer feel the need to save the world from the fires of hell.

After you have spent 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000 years in heaven, I hope you still have fond memories of this forum and the nice people you met here.... One thing I would stress is not to forget the dice for the monopoly game. It would be a real pain in the arse to be in heaven all that time just staring at the box, wishing you could have a quick game.
Bye now....

P.S. Note to all, before you consider quoting musclemans entire post in your replies, consider the finite amount of server space on the planet.

fidiot · 6th February 2003, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fool
P.S. Note to all, before you consider quoting musclemans entire post in your replies, consider the finite amount of server space on the planet.

Too bad this is not heaven, we'd have all the forum space that we want

Wile E. Coyote · 6th February 2003, 10:11 AM

Ooh, ooh! Look everyone, it's a train wreck!

Seriously, muscleman does not belong on a skeptic's forum. He questions nothing. Even Franko has some original ideas, but muscleman just spews the same crap the Catholic church has been spewing for centuries.

muscleman, please stop preaching here. Your feeble statements are backed only by rumor and speculation, and skeptics are not at all likely to accept what you say as anything other than monkey screeching.

Tricky · 6th February 2003, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tjwojo
Seriously, muscleman does not belong on a skeptic's forum. He questions nothing. Even Franko has some original ideas, but muscleman just spews the same crap the Catholic church has been spewing for centuries.

Actually, tjwojo, Muscleman is Franko, or rather they are both creations of The Dungeonmaster. Though the Franko persona is definately more interesting, they both use identical tactics and neither can deviate an angstrom from the character charts that the DM has drawn up for them. That is why you will never get a concession on any point from either. This is apparently a little internet game this person plays to amuse himself.

I've been playing for quite a while, and I admit it can be fun. Don't think for an instant, though, that you will ever be able to have a real conversation with an imaginary character.

arcticpenguin · 6th February 2003, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by muscleman

And Dave, LOL, your right, virtue is all there is to my life (religion) and I apply it wherevere I go, when I go to parties, play sports, go to school, or even date...

I'm guessing modesty and humility are not on your long list of virtues.

Wile E. Coyote · 6th February 2003, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tricky

Actually, tjwojo, Muscleman is Franko, or rather they are both creations of The Dungeonmaster. Though the Franko persona is definately more interesting, they both use identical tactics and neither can deviate an angstrom from the character charts that the DM has drawn up for them. That is why you will never get a concession on any point from either. This is apparently a little internet game this person plays to amuse himself.

I've been playing for quite a while, and I admit it can be fun. Don't think for an instant, though, that you will ever be able to have a real conversation with an imaginary character.

Thanks for the insight! I will keep that in mind when I am considering punching my hand through my monitor.

Doctor X · 6th February 2003, 11:02 AM

How deliciously ironic.

The creator proves responsible for the behavior of his creations, including racism, and is judged accordingly.

--J.D.

Samus · 6th February 2003, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tricky
[Actually, tjwojo, Muscleman is Franko, or rather they are both creations of The Dungeonmaster.

Not to spoil the fun, but is there a moderator on this site that can back that claim? We don't allow so-called "sock puppets" on the forums I mod, and we use the IP address logging to help enforce that.

Regardless, some arguments will never end. Better watch your back tjwojo, you don't want muscleman to kick your butt (as he has admitted to being an accomplished boxer).

ntech · 6th February 2003, 11:12 AM

Hey muscleman
How is the food there in the mental ward?

Doctor X · 6th February 2003, 11:24 AM

Quote:

. . . as he has admitted to being an accomplished boxer. . . .

Which, I am sure, we should consider to have the same reliability as all of his other claims.

Nevertheless, if indeed an accomplished boxer, a gentleman he is not.

--J.D.

Tricky · 6th February 2003, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dwb
Not to spoil the fun, but is there a moderator on this site that can back that claim? We don't allow so-called "sock puppets" on the forums I mod, and we use the IP address logging to help enforce that.

Nope, sorry dwb. This is an unmoderated forum, except for certain threads. We have had a few acknowledged sock puppets here (for example, Undercover Elephant has another persona which he no longer uses called Juggler). People have asked for IP addresses before (or even just to check if there are duplicates) and the answer has been resounding silence. That is one reason why The Dungeonmaster likes this forum so much.

AP's sock puppet · 6th February 2003, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dwb
Not to spoil the fun, but is there a moderator on this site that can back that claim? We don't allow so-called "sock puppets" on the forums I mod, and we use the IP address logging to help enforce that.

How discriminatory. After all, sock puppets are people too.

Franko · 6th February 2003, 12:18 PM

Quote:

but is there a moderator on this site that can back that claim? We don't allow so-called "sock puppets" on the forums I mod, and we use the IP address logging to help enforce that.

Ohh the A-Theists would never tolerate that!

Without there assortment of sock-puppets and other logical fallacies the A-Theists are nothing. They certainly have no logical evidence to back up their ridiculous religious dogma.

If we take away the A-Theists ability to sock-puppet themselves silly it wouldn't be neary as fun exposing them as the arrogant imbeciles that they truly are.

c4ts · 6th February 2003, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AP's sock puppet

How discriminatory. After all, sock puppets are people too.

People other than themselves. The difference is between an actor and a character played by that actor.

justsaygnosis · 6th February 2003, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fool
Muscleman.

P.S. Note to all, before you consider quoting musclemans entire post in your replies, consider the finite amount of server space on the planet.

Good to see your avatar on the board again. How's your daughter doing?

arcticpenguin · 6th February 2003, 05:58 PM

The thread is too long to read in its entirety, so I'll stick to the thread title: Taking your souls back

How long is the warranty period? Do we have to take in the original receipt with it?

arcticpenguin · 6th February 2003, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by c4ts

People other than themselves. The difference is between an actor and a character played by that actor.

"Things are seldom what they seem.
Skim milk masquerades as cream."

Hazelip · 6th February 2003, 07:04 PM

Muscleman, I want you to rest assured about the state of my immortal soul.

There is no such thing as an immortal soul.

There. I hope you feel better.

6th February 2003, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko

Ohh the A-Theists would never tolerate that!

Without there assortment of sock-puppets and other logical fallacies the A-Theists are nothing. They certainly have no logical evidence to back up their ridiculous religious dogma.

If we take away the A-Theists ability to sock-puppet themselves silly it wouldn't be neary as fun exposing them as the arrogant imbeciles that they truly are.

This coming from a man who commits the fallacy of composition in a syllogism at least once a day. And I am not sure why a sock puppet is a logical fallacy.

Sooo, Franko is the the forum member who:

routinely makes fallacies of logic,

calls sock puppets illogical but has 5 of his own,

as well as the forum's only resident logical deist.

Yep, franko is highly logical.

Ladewig · 6th February 2003, 08:17 PM

Muscleman, I agree with you. At least the part where you say, "this is a VERY, VERY long post." As for the rest: no. I disagree with your conclusions and I disagree with your premises. For instance,

Quote:

No other so-called Gods have given the profound laws and guidelines effective in governing as Jesus did..

Actually, there have been a number of ancient religions that have provided profound laws and effective guidelines. And some of those religions have had resurrected dieties and demi-gods. And others had virgin births. So I don't see much unique material in your god stories.

As for me and my soul, we will worship the Aztec God of numbers and stars: Mixcóatl. All hail Mixcóatl. With apologies to Irving Berlin, anything your god can do my god can do better.

6th February 2003, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by muscleman
well atleast when you die, you cant blaim anyone but yourself, for now you already know...

And Dave, LOL, your right, virtue is all there is to my life (religion) and I apply it wherevere I go, when I go to parties, play sports, go to school, or even date...What virtues do you have? Its ok to be gay?

Actually, I do subscribe to most of the what Christians call "Christian" virtues. Of course, this is just another means of coopting what is generic virtue and trying to claim it's singularly "christian".

I forgive more than most, and don't hold any real grudges. I generally follow the "golden rule", but heck, so do animals, if you pay attention. I pay attention to family and work to make things a little better in the world in my own curious fashion. I generally don't bother judging people, since it's too much effort to find out enough be "fair".

Naturally, special veneration or reverence for various flavors of religious dogma is not among such virtues, as I don't generally consider them as such.

I believe in one god fewer than most is all. Actually 2~3 gods/demigods and various pantheons, according to categories of religious belief. Since I can find Christians who believe in God/Jesus as seperate entities and as a singular entity, I can't even really speak of ALL Christians as monotheistic.

Is it OK to be happy? Of course it is. If you mean "be attracted to the same sex", well that's between the consenting adults that practice it. Who am I to judge them for what makes them happy, if I give people all this slack about religion making them happy?

Julia · 6th February 2003, 08:49 PM

Muscleman,
I have been working on figuring out your real point in posting on this forum. Other than to stir trouble, I don't believe you have one.
You have your posturing down, however, and lots of attitude.
You are preaching to the wrong choir. Do you really believe
you will make anyone here see the (your) light.
I don't even call myself an athiest. But people like you make me want to become one.
You seem young and arrogant. Perhaps come back after you've
done some growing up.

5th February 2003, 09:23 PM	#1
muscleman Guest Posts: n/a	Taking your Soul back.... I noticed that many of you guys here are of riped age, aand need to knnow this before your time will fade away. This is not a question and answer post, but an educational post.. Its VERY VERY long, but read this, for it might save your soul........ Is God real? What is God(s)? Which God? Why should we worship him and How? the point? For many centuries, it is in human nature to worship and treasure someone or something, we dont settle down by natural means (natural in a sense of tegetherness, food, and violence for survival), for us that is not enough, we have a "strong emotion" that drives us to look for "something else"... "Apart from God we are lost"....Ever since the sin of Adam and Eve, human race have been separated from the connection with God... Take all the world cultures for example (lets leave religion out for a moment). For thousands of years (historically speaking), humans have always found something to lay their strong emotions to, if they see a cow in front of them, then sory cow your gonna be worshipped, if its the way they eat, then eating wont just be as easy but must wash hands, bow down, take sandals out, etc. as it is in many cultures from japan to europe. It is like when you have a girlfriend whom you dearly love, and when she leaves you, you need a rebound otherwise you will be extremely deppressed because you will not be able to express the strong emotion she gave you... Take all the world cultures and observe them, from the west to the east, from natives in south america to japan. Observe and learn that people feel lost unless there is something or someone they lay their heart to, human interactions isnt enough, or even food, we crave for more..If that emotions isnt settled in religion, it is settled in sports, in science, or in fashion and materials... In japan, people are very well disciplined, there is strict rules you have to follow before and after meals, greeting high postion people..But whats the point? Why does the human race do these? Does reasons even have room here? You know why, because we feel lost if we dont make rituals and practices, thats a strong emotion that we have... ALL cultures are a slave to worship of "something something" otherwise we feel lost without such practice... You guys dont understand the concept of "God" and gods.. There are many gods...Some gods are immortal, some gods arent, some gods are 1000 years old trees, some gods are 80 yrs old man...There is a god called "Belzebul" in the old, the hindu gods, etc. Anything can be a god, thats how they refer to back then as something you worship, trust, hope, and treasure in your heart, and that can mean anyone and anything... You might think that People back then are crazy to die for a god which is a statue of goat made out of gold and silver. A goat is made for food, but why do they go beyond the norm? Are people then really weird? Let's see....They are willing to die for it, worship it (by treasuring it dearly in their hearts), make songs about it, talk highly of it, they will even kill for it such as offering human sacrifice, whatever. What about today? We have cars, which we used for transportation, do we go beyond the nomrs like what people back then do? Let's see...We hope that we can achieve better cars, better engine, we worship and treasure some cars, some of us are willing to die to obtain it, sacrifice marriage, even moral values..You will steal to get them, cheat, even some will kill to own a ferrari, or 1 million dollars. Some of us talk highly about cars, we even make songs dedicated to cars with nice grills etc., take the rappers for example like Ludacris...this is the SPIRITS of the world.. I guess people back then isnt that weird after all, we are no better than them...This is what we call "IDOLATRY"..."Thou shall not have other gods before me"- Bible.. Again there are many gods, and the practices along with those gods are abomination to the real God, the truth. How is the God of Abraham the real God? In other words How is the God of humble, hardworking, faithfull, loving, and kind men the true God? Because His ways are the right way to live, proper way of living, civilized manner, as a true father wants the best for his children, just as a true God will not teach us to hate each other and steal each others' goods...But then again, over the centuries, the human race have different concept of God, just as a kid has different concept of things until he matures...I will explain more later.... Why should I worship "God" and how? Whats the point? Why is it so important to worship the "God" of Abraham? Or the christian God? Why cant I worship the ferrari god, or the cow god, or the snoop doggy dog god? What about the girls gone wild video tape god, why cant I worship them instead? Whats wrong with them? Sofa or Television is not a sin, it is the love of Sofa and Television that makes it a sin...Also, it is not the thing or the something that you worship that makes it a sin. It is the result of it that makes it a sin. What is the result of worship in Karma Sutra? Perversion, which leads to saccrifice of human life, from losing family, to disrespecting women, rape in some case, losing focus in the meaning of life, etc..What is the result of worshipping a "violent" God? Violence, murder, justified because of their god, this is evident in the bible because they thought God is a violent God, and even today, this is visible through the muslim..What you "worship" in your heart, n other words what you treasure in your heart is where your god is, and what your god do is what you do.. For instance, if you worship Arnold Schwarzennerger, or Marvel Super Heroes, you immediately wanted to be buff and muscular, because they are your role model, and their action is the virtue in which you found appealing... So why is it so important to worship the Christian God? Because worshipping Jesus means worshipping his deeds, and action, and what he do..And that is the virtues, beatitudes, moral guidelines, etc. We can be saved through love and the virtues. Whether you carry the title "buddhism" or "hinduism", but you are judged by your virtues, your quality. However, it is very unlikely and unprobably for someone to worship SNOOP DOG or MTV and have good virtues, is NOT perverted, and is very patient, because the MTV god doesnt teach any of that.. FOR ANYONE TO CLAIM THAT THEY REJECT THE WORSHIP OF CHRIST, AND HAVE VIRTUES IN THEM BY WORSHIPPING PERVERTED MTV, THEY ARE A LIAR, TO ME IT IS VERY UNPROBABLE AND UNLIKELY...EVEN THE GOVERNMENT TEACHES THAT WHAT WE SEE, AND WHAT WE HEAR AFFECTS WHAT WE DO... "See no evil, hear no evil, and SPEAK NO evil"...If you dont hear and see evil, then you will not DO EVIL EITHER BY TALKING, OR ACTING... So what is my evidence that the Christian God, and the God of Abraham is the one and only true God? The love he have shown, "As a true Father wants the best for His children and would willing to give up his very life to save him" just as a true God will do the same for his children...No other so-caled Gods have given the profound laws and guidelines effective in governing as Jesus did.. Another is that there is only One God, because all the other cultures, and religion, is not like the christians.. When the apostles were taught of the gospel, they were instructed to keep the event to themselves and tell others about it at a certain time. But people have so much conviction and excitement that they disobeyed Jesus and told everyone they met anyways, they testified Jesus healing, his words, and what he do.. Till this day, this tradition is carried out, ONLY CHRISTIANS IN THE WORLD RELIGION ARE SO CONFIDENT THAT JESUS IS THE LORD THAT THEY WILL GO IN EVERY CORNERS OF THE EARTH TO PROCLAIM IT, THEY ARE SO OVERWHELMED THAT THEY CANNOT KEEP IT TO THEMSELF...That proves that genuinity of our faith, the buddhist, the muslims, and other religions doesnt have that conviction, AS HISTORY SHOWS, even buddhism complains of the westerners evangelizing their own people... For centuries many thought God is evil, cruel, and careless, and because of that, He dont exist. But Jesus calrified the truth........ "Tell them that they are wrong about sin and they are wrong about God's judgment"- Jesus.. "A new commandment, that I give unto you, that yu love one another, as I have loved you. For this I know then, that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another.."- Jesus..
muscleman Guest Posts: n/a

5th February 2003, 09:32 PM	#2
muscleman Guest Posts: n/a	Is Religion a waste? Atheists say that religion causes war & disunity, therefore we must get rid of it, but does this make sense? Let us observe & see... Life itself is religion, and each and every single one of us is a church (Body is the temple of God..).......If one cannot appreciate religion but rejects or hates it, such individual rejects and hates human kind as well.......... If one choses not to be under the rules and regulations of one religion, such individual "decides" to make a religion in his own temple (mind and body)....He will absorb many beliefs and knowledge, some knowledge based purely on faith, others based purely on facts......This persons name is John, and John is the name of the religion, John have his own church, his own mind and body..... He believes that taking drugs and abusing it is harmfull, a belief based on fact...Some of his beliefs are based purely on facts, others are based purely on faith... He believes that medical science is effective, a belief based on fact...He also believes that UFO and aliens are real, based purely on faith....He also believes quantum mechanics is a fact, a belief based purely on faith (theories).......etc.... Many have said that there are many religions, 9 major ones today..In Christianity, there are about 27,000 denominations...In Buddhism, there are also thousands, and the same for Hinduism... I say there are 15 billion people, and there is also 15 billion religions.......Nationalism is an example of religion, it contains musical song dedicated and praising the country (national anthem), it has rituals (gun shots, marching, certain rules and regulations), symbols (flags), its own members (senate, president, governor, etc.)....Human existence is the same way, each and every single one of us have our own style of doing things, how we drive, how we talk, how we give ourselves self-esteem (self-glorification), etc... Life is a religion........ But how can we put an all knowing, all powerfull, eternal entity (God) in the realm of ignorance, no self-control, perishable world? Life is a religion, but life is also an order...... For instance...When you are lonely, having no family to love you, your mind takes care of what you have missing...It may come in a form of imagination (day dream: or sleep dream) where you fantasize about a happy family, a mother and father who understands you, and loves you..... When you drive a rugged ghetto jacked up car and people dont give you attention because of it (or negative attention), then your mind takes care of what you have missing as well, then you began to day dream of owning a nicer, faster car, a car that will cause people to like you... This is just one of many many many many (AND I MEAN "MANY") examples I can set to prove that life is an order, independent, and self-sufficient.... What is the point of all these? The point is, if life is an order, then religion is also an order...And order have levels......... For instance, the level of imagining to obtain a gold plated pencil is not in the same level of obtaining a gold plated mansion house....If you imagine owning a gold plated pencil, you can possibly get that at this moment, but that wont be the case for a gold plated mansion house.........(Remember this is just an analogy, you can use another analogy where one is not valued by its mass, but quality, such as diamonds, valued by its carat,and clarity...) Another example of order is the animal species (or you can say the "brain", levels of intelligence..)....There are levels of species..Let us make up our own level just as an example........... Let us just say that the cockroach is the lowest, then the one above that is the salamander, above that is the snake, above the snake is the racoon, above the racoon is the cat, then the lion, then the bear, then the elephant, then the whales, then the human species....By far we claim to be the highest, and we are the highest.......We have the power to wipe them all out, the power to do to them as we please (taming, or slaughtering...) There are many religions (billions) because life is an order. If life is NOT an order, then there will only be one religion, one truth, where there is no close substitute, but that is not the case today, because life is an order, self-sufficient, and independent (humans having freewill and independence). Ill clarify one more time, if life is chaos, then there will only be one religion and no freewill.... Understand this....If life came to existence from sub-atomic particles, to atoms, to molecules, to a single cell, to animal species, to human life, then this statement is proposing that life is "ONE DIRECTION", therefore we cannot have freewill, AND THERE MUST ONLY BE ONE RELIGION, one truth.........But that is not the case, because life is an order....... In summary, if your expecting one religion, then your hallucinating...Life didnt just come to existence because the sub-atomic particles became atom, then it became molecules, then singled cell life forms...etc...Its not that simple, theres all forms of physics behind it, and intelligent guidance, or "pure luck", either way its for you to believe....... What Im trying to point out here is that if atheists ask that in order for God to exist, then there must only be one religion and one church. That maybe true if we dont have freewill, but we do have freewill..Therefore its impossible to have one church... It is only logical that many religions exist...It is only logical that human race attempted to "Design" an organization to search for the truth, we call this individuals "prophets"....It is only logical that this individuals put so much effort into it, some religion makes more sense, others are just plain stupid (atheism, who claims to find the truth..)... But with all the prophets efforts of attempting to search for the truth, many are willing to die for finding that truth, then there must be a truth.... Some maybe close to finding it, others are not even close (like atheism)........ Almost all religions claim to be the "True church", but there is only "one true church" and the others are either just close to it, or not at all......... Our mission is to seek and find that true church...."Seek and you shall find"- Jesus.... But if your too impatient, self-centered (so focus on pleasure.) greedy, stupid, then you are not willing to put any efforts on finding that true church, and if your not willing to, THEN MAYBE YOU DONT DESERVE TO FIND IT, you have to look for it first before you can find it...... Nobody is born in the true church...One must seek it himself...For instance, many who claimed to be christians, or former christians are ignorant about their faith, therefore they are not really christians........ You must educate yourself and learn what is the true church, before you can find it........If a person based his religion on pure faith, then that person has not put any efforts into finding it, and if he didnt put any efforts because he have no patience, too caught up in the things of the world, then maybe he dont deserve to find the truth....... In summary, there are many religions, but there must only be "One true religion", just as there are many animal species, but there is only one ultimate species (the human species...). We can have the visions of any species, we can fly, be strong, all this is possible with our intelligence....... In summary, look for the true church, I cannot tell you this, for if I tell you, you will not believe me.......Then you will begin judging the people's sin in the church, etc.....So look for it yourself...... But Ill give you this..........Jesus warned of the false prophets in the future, when the apostles asked him how we would know that they are false, we know it by their works........WE KNOW THE TEACHING IS FALSE BY THEIR WORKS............ For instance, atheism and many organizations promote abortion, and that the babies inside are not humans but just a blob of tissue, is this the truth???? We can even abort 9 month old babies even, as long as they are in the womb, they are not humans............They say this because if they said it is "humans", then it will be given human rights, thus we cant kill them anymore, because of this, they say it is just a blob of tissue......... From abortion what did it lead to? Euthanasia, if your old, unwanted, and useless...You deserve to die............ Whats next? The handicap? The crippled? The blind?? You know what this sounds like? THE THIRD REIGHT OF ADOLF HITLER................Where jews are not pure humans, jus as the blacks were considered 1/4 humans many years ago, thus making slavery legal........... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Since atheists are so anti-religion (churches particularly) because they believe religion causes wars, terror, murder, hate, etc... for the sake of the argument, let us just say that we were succesfull in abolishing all religions completely. Now there is no muslim, no christians, no buddhism........ Now how do you deal with the others in disunity? Raider's fan beating on 49'ers fan...Norte shot and killed a surreno, he hates this guy because he wears red, while the other hates the other because he wears blue, 2 different beliefs. One guy beeat another guy, because he believe its ok to get drunk, while the other believes it is wrong to abuse one's body and promote that act to others. A rapper shot and killed a heavy metal artist, because he believes rap music is best influencing teens, then the other also shot him back because he believe that heavy metal is better....Democracy, Communism, Republican, chinese, asian, black, white puerto rican, rap, gothic, prep.......I can probably set MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of examples of organizations and division, so how do you deal with these now?? Thats why I still believed in Christianity, that we must be able to see the good in every individual, and learn to love them the way they are, only in this way we can find peace......But in Christianity there is also many denominations, which one to pick? Again it is for you to look, for if I tell you the answer, you will not believe (since I know many of you here are poisoned by lies so many times already)............
muscleman Guest Posts: n/a

5th February 2003, 09:43 PM	#3
muscleman Guest Posts: n/a	Is there flaws in Catholic church? Or u just misunderstood? "You said that the bible must not be taken literally, but some can be, but whos suppose to have the RIGHT to interpret one, and take the other literally?"- atheist.. Thats why its important to learn the history of the church.. Where did the bible come from? The Universal community (Catholic in latin, "church" as group of believers.) first founded in Rome italy... The magisterium and the fathers of the church compiled the bible, they decided what scrolls must be printed there (for there are many scrolls that the bible dont have). Therefore it is the Holy see that have the right to interpret the bible... Do you even know what is the first purpose of the bible? It is compiled for the mass, because before it was compiled, there were many scrolls and some are too old so decided to put it into one book, the bible when beipng read, the priest always MAKE HIS TRANSLATION, AND WHAT THE HOLY SEE BELIEVEIT MEANS....One church, one body..... When you use the word "The Roman Catholic Church did this or did that""...Then I assume you must be educated in the R.C.C... How educated are you in the R.C.C? The same church who have members that founded universities, among them is Georgetown, NotreDame, and many others.... If you say it is the Roman Catholic Church that did the crusades, then that is like saying the U.S government have sex with Monica Lewinski..... First before making the claim that the U.S did it, you must present a bill that the senates pass, if its constitutional, and if its a law, then you can say the Government did it...That is likewise for the R.C.C.... The R.C.C is composed of this... 1.) Holy Scriptures (Many many books written by saints, the bible is ONE OF THEM, Catechsim, Lumengentium, etc. & other books as well that are "Imprimatured" or "nihil obstat" meaning checked and free of moral errors..) 2.) Holy Tradition (Like Jesus who wears the synagogues, this is very important because we are heirs of Abraham, and King David, thus continuing the legacy of the faith from the start (mustard seed).) 3.) Canon law (This is like the constitution. This is the infallible teachings of the church, where we go to these if there are any disputes among the members...) 4.) Magisterium (Pope united with the bishops... This is where "Dogma" are being propagated, having full investigation on things, scientifically, or historically..) That is what is composed of the Roman Catholic church. When bishop hides a child molester from public, that is NOT IN THE CANON LAW, OR APPROVAL BY THE POPE BUT AN INDEPENDENT ACT I CAN UNDERSTAND FULLY AS A HUMAN SPECIES... Maybe they were friends, and he just wanted to defend him, but this is not the "ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH ACT"..... Furtheremore, the crusades or the inquisition...First youhave to educate yurself in History...For instance, why did Cortez came back and wiped out almost all of the aztec indians? He is a roman catholic, but he is an individual.. First when he arrived in South America, they were captured by the indians, and 4 of his friends were offered to the gods and killed, Cortez escaped with full hatred...Returning to spain, he came back with so much militia and vengeance, that he almost killed all of them... The same with Magellan in Phillipines... His followersraped and stole gold and women, then uses the name of "CHURCH" tto cover up their disgusting act...The muslims killed Magellan...But those who escaped came back to spain, then came back to kill almost all of them, thus colonizing the country... The pope was even involve on this, BUT THIS IS NOT THE CHURCH THAT DID IT, BECAUSE ALL OF THE BISHOPS MUST AGREE ON THIS, THEN DOCUMENT IT, THEN WILL BE WRITTEN IN CANON LAW, OR BECOME A DOGMA, BUT NONE OF THIS ARE PERMITTED IN EITHER THE BOOK.... For instance, St. Joan of Arc, she was a catholic (now a saint) and was hanged and burned to death by the bishop, accusing her of witchcraft falsely... THIS WAS AN INDEPENDENT ACT, THE POPE WASNT AWARE OF THIS UNTIL LATER IN YEARS..... note: I am a catechist teacher, If u want to ask about the eucharist, is it logical to say God is really present there? The virgin birth, scientific proof of God, etc. Then ask away........
muscleman Guest Posts: n/a

5th February 2003, 09:54 PM	#4
evildave Guest Posts: n/a	Ahh, more posts about "what atheists believe". I personally could care less if you want to worship Gods or Keebler Elves. If it makes you happy, then do enjoy your fantasies all you like. I'm sure that it can seem very much like "life is religion" if you make religion all your life is about.
evildave Guest Posts: n/a

5th February 2003, 09:59 PM	#5
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,952	There isn't any scientific evidence of god. That's part of the reason I'm atheist. Another reason I'm atheist is because I actually read the christian bible. Please, lose your god beliefs before you go insane...... oh, I'm too late huh?
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

5th February 2003, 10:11 PM	#6
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470	So, if I take a little knife and insert it in your brain stem roughly at the level of the mesencephapic-metencephalic junction [Stop it! "Midbrain" and "pons"--Ed] thereby transecting your ascending reticular activating system, thus obliterating your consciousness and your ability to ever regain consciousness, though not damaging your hemispheres in any way . . . what has happened to your soul? Kids, if you try this at homel, make sure you wash your hands first. . . . --J.D.
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470

5th February 2003, 10:15 PM	#7
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470	. . . and ask Mommy first if you can borrow her buckknife. . . . --J.D.
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470

5th February 2003, 10:56 PM	#8
muscleman Guest Posts: n/a	well atleast when you die, you cant blaim anyone but yourself, for now you already know... And Dave, LOL, your right, virtue is all there is to my life (religion) and I apply it wherevere I go, when I go to parties, play sports, go to school, or even date...What virtues do you have? Its ok to be gay?
muscleman Guest Posts: n/a

5th February 2003, 11:03 PM	#9
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470	I am afraid I must recognize that as an inability to address the topic. --J.D.
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470

5th February 2003, 11:16 PM	#10
muscleman Guest Posts: n/a	Doctor X, I know not much about the soul.. I know that its eternal (as energy cannot be destroyed), I know that we cant detect it (as we cant detect sub-atomic particles anything beyond 300,000,000 m/s.). I also know that what we can detect is the weakest form of energy (a stopped energy). Therefore a soul is a very potent version of what we label as "physical".. Though when you destroy the body's mechanism, when it breaks down, the soul departs.. It can only return if the body is fully operational (which we call ""ressurection".) There are people who are in coma, and many have claimed to have seen their own body (soul departing), however, SKEPTICS "THEORIZED" that it was just brain consciousness (imagination), BUT WHO DO I BELIEVE? THE PERSON IN WHICH IT HAPPENED TO? OR THE PERS0N WHO MADE A THEORY ABOUT IT???
muscleman Guest Posts: n/a

5th February 2003, 11:16 PM	#11
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,600	Quote: Originally posted by muscleman well atleast when you die, you cant blaim anyone but yourself, for now you already know... Ayee, repent ye sinners, for I have shown thou The Light! And Dave, LOL, your right, virtue is all there is to my life (religion) and I apply it wherevere I go, when I go to parties, play sports, go to school, or even date... Yeah, I once hadda friend like that .... What virtues do you have? Its ok to be gay? Well, obviously humility and tolerance are NOT among Muscleman's virtues, but I guess it takes a saint to have them all Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

5th February 2003, 11:28 PM	#12
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470	Quote: I know not much (sic) about the soul.. I know that its eternal Ipse dixit The existence of such has not been established, and the question posed has been ignored. Quote: I know that we cant (sic) detect it (as we cant (sic) detect sub-atomic particles anything beyond 300,000,000 m/s.). I will leave the physicist to criticise that mistake, nevertheless, it remains a "I-am-sure-it-exists-but-no-evidence-of-it-exists." This, of course, is a variation of the Squeaky the Bunny Hypothesis [All Rights Reserved.--Ed.] Squeaky, of course, is the invisible bunny that you cannot feel, who controls your movements without you knowing it. Incidentally: Quote: I also know that what we can detect is the weakest form of energy (a stopped energy). Therefore a soul is a very potent version of what we label as "physical".. The second does not follow at all from the first. Quote: Though when you destroy the body's mechanism, when it breaks down, the soul departs.. It can only return if the body is fully operational (which we call ""ressurection (sic)".) While I perhaps remain thankfully ignorant of the identity of this "we," I will note that this is contradicted by the scientific rhetorical I pos'd above. Quote: There are people who are in coma, and many have claimed to have seen their own body (soul departing), . . . People in a coma do not claim anything. Quote: . . . however, SKEPTICS "THEORIZED" Note the attempt to Poison the Well with the use of "." . . . or is that use of ""? Quote: that it was just brain consciousness (imagination), Consciousness is not the same as imagination. Quote: BUT WHO DO I BELIEVE? THE PERSON IN WHICH IT HAPPENED TO? Lack of antecedant to the pronoun prevents conveyence of point. Quote: OR THE PERS0N WHO MADE A THEORY ABOUT IT??? Unfortunately, enough is know about the basic mechanism, as pos'd above, to move beyond the attempted slight of "theory." The question remains pending. --J.D.
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470

5th February 2003, 11:33 PM	#13
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,600	Quote: There are people who are in coma, and many have claimed to have seen their own body (soul departing), however, SKEPTICS "THEORIZED" that it was just brain consciousness (imagination), BUT WHO DO I BELIEVE? THE PERSON IN WHICH IT HAPPENED TO? OR THE PERS0N WHO MADE A THEORY ABOUT IT??? Mmm, interesting question. I had a friend who tried LSD (this was in '68); afterwards, he told me that he had seen the road as a river with barges slowly drifting. He jumped in and began to swim across, but collided with one of the "barges". He woke up in hospital, rather badly bruised. Now, my friend could describe his perception of the river and the gaudily painted boats and barges in vivid detail, but the "skeptic" police report described him walking into a trafficked street, waving his arms, and getting hit by a car. Which should we believe? I read about a doctor who was giving her patients some treatment that regularly gave them Out of Body Experiences (OBE). After having heard enough of them describing how their "souls" floated around under the ceiling looking down on their body and the doctor working on it, she placed a message in such a way that it would be very conspicuous from a viewer near the ceiling, but invisible from anybody on the floor. Interestingly, nobody reported observing it during OBEs. Hans (edited to correct some of the typos)
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

5th February 2003, 11:41 PM	#14
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470	No fair bringing evidence into the discusion! --J.D.
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470

5th February 2003, 11:44 PM	#15
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,600	I do apologize! Who was it that said: "My mind is made up, so don't confuse me with facts"? Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

6th February 2003, 12:45 AM	#16
iain Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,293	Quote: Originally posted by MRC_Hans I do apologize! Who was it that said: "My mind is made up, so don't confuse me with facts"? Hans Almost anyone on these forums?
iain Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,293

6th February 2003, 02:48 AM	#17
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Quote: Is God real? What is God(s)? Which God? Why should we worship him and How? the point? I'm afraid those questions are circular reasoning. "Is God real?" is fine. "What is God?" is fine. "Which God?" is unusual, because it doesn't seem to relate to "Is God real?" in a monotheistic sense. "Why should we worship him and how?" is the problem, because it implies "is God real?" was answered with "yes," it also requires that "what is god?" was partially answered with "a male that should be worshipped in some way or another." "The point?" refers to the point of worship, which assumes that there now is a way to worship the existing God, but that way may or may not have a point. Since, you've already answered your questions, why bother asking them? You have no knowedge to gain for yourself, just a re-affirmation of your belief at best, which is not likely at this forum unless you ignore or try to refute each response. Sadly, the rest of your post makes about as much sense to me as the end of a Chick tract, and seems to have equal footing in reality. But I could be wrong. Quote: For many centuries, it is in human nature to worship and treasure someone or something, we dont settle down by natural means (natural in a sense of tegetherness, food, and violence for survival), for us that is not enough, we have a "strong emotion" that drives us to look for "something else"... Emotions are common to all living things, not specifically part of human nature, as our desire to understand our surroundings and our tendency to band together. You say we do not settle down by natural means, and try to treat a desire to understand (a drive to look for "something else," presumably a means of explanation that is not immediately at hand) as some sort of emotion. But emotions appear to be common to all animals, whereas the desire to understand does not, although it may be the cause of emotions. Also, we do appear to settle down by natural means, if not in cities, at least in tribes or factions. Furthermore, it would seem that human nature to worship or treasure someone would have this effect on our species, if you say that it is also human nature to defend who or what what they worship or treasure. Quote: "Apart from God we are lost"....Ever since the sin of Adam and Eve, human race have been separated from the connection with God... Now you are confusing mythology with the truth. Truth is, we don't know what happened before this exact second, but we have so much evidence provided by things we call "memory," "archaeology," "written history," and "anthropology," all of which seem to be consistent with one another. They may not be exact, they may even be lies, but since they are coherent and provide something which we skeptics call "evidence," they are somewhat more valid than myth or conjecture, which may also be lies. In order to claim the Athens of Ancient Greece existed, something like the Parthenon or Acropolis is used to support that claim in conjunction with the writings of the so-called "Ancient Greeks" that are still available (and that's not even the bare minimum according to some). If you wanted to assume that Adam and Eve were true, you'd need something like God's giant flaming sword that turns every which way to cast the man out of Eden, and maybe some cherubim at the gate. Nobody has found anything that conclusive regarding that story, but look at all the stuff we found in Greece. Quote: Take all the world cultures for example (lets leave religion out for a moment). For thousands of years (historically speaking), humans have always found something to lay their strong emotions to, if they see a cow in front of them, then sory cow your gonna be worshipped, if its the way they eat, then eating wont just be as easy but must wash hands, bow down, take sandals out, etc. as it is in many cultures from japan to europe. Those customs seem unrelated the way you describe them. Different countries have different rituals. There's more than one religion. So what? Quote: It is like when you have a girlfriend whom you dearly love, and when she leaves you, you need a rebound otherwise you will be extremely deppressed because you will not be able to express the strong emotion she gave you... Nope. Love is not necessarily reciprocating. I learned that from experience. Sometimes you find you love someone else more, or that you never really loved your girlfriend anyway, or that feeling you had that you said was gonna last forever didn't after all the awkward high school sex, or you realize you two really just hate each other, so the relationship is terminated in a way that is not depressing. But since it's just a statement of experience, it's no more valid than what you said. Quote: There are many gods...Some gods are immortal, some gods arent, some gods are 1000 years old trees, some gods are 80 yrs old man...There is a god called "Belzebul" in the old, the hindu gods, etc. Anything can be a god, thats how they refer to back then as something you worship, trust, hope, and treasure in your heart, and that can mean anyone and anything... You might think that People back then are crazy to die for a god which is a statue of goat made out of gold and silver. A goat is made for food, but why do they go beyond the norm? Are people then really weird? Let's see....They are willing to die for it, worship it (by treasuring it dearly in their hearts), make songs about it, talk highly of it, they will even kill for it such as offering human sacrifice, whatever. So you are basically saying that theism causes immorality. You've also assumed that similar syllables in different languages have exactly the same meaning. There's an english word "see," and a Spanish word "ci." The similarity has no more meaning than "Bezebul" or whatever you want to call it because you want to accuse the Hindus of worshipping "Belzebub." And who the hell worships statues these days anyway? Isolated North African and Micronesian tribes? Also, these things are trivial compared to what Christians have done in the name of their god for ages. Why aren't they mentioned? Quote: Again there are many gods, and the practices along with those gods are abomination to the real God, the truth. How is the God of Abraham the real God? In other words How is the God of humble, hardworking, faithfull, loving, and kind men the true God? Because His ways are the right way to live, proper way of living, civilized manner, as a true father wants the best for his children, just as a true God will not teach us to hate each other and steal each others' goods...But then again, over the centuries, the human race have different concept of God, just as a kid has different concept of things until he matures...I will explain more later.... You've already answered your initial questions for yourself. Also, the concept of God is exactly that: a concept. If there are multiple gods in existence, the "one true god" of monotheism is a lie, because all those gods you mentioned cannot be gods, yet you first postulated their existence as gods, and it is unreasonable to negate your own postulate. Quote: You guys dont understand the concept of "God" and gods.. There are many gods...Some gods are immortal, some gods arent, some gods are 1000 years old trees, some gods are 80 yrs old man...There is a god called "Belzebul" in the old, the hindu gods, etc. Anything can be a god, thats how they refer to back then as something you worship, trust, hope, and treasure in your heart, and that can mean anyone and anything... You might think that People back then are crazy to die for a god which is a statue of goat made out of gold and silver. A goat is made for food, but why do they go beyond the norm? Are people then really weird? Let's see....They are willing to die for it, worship it (by treasuring it dearly in their hearts), make songs about it, talk highly of it, they will even kill for it such as offering human sacrifice, whatever. What about today? We have cars, which we used for transportation, do we go beyond the nomrs like what people back then do? Let's see...We hope that we can achieve better cars, better engine, we worship and treasure some cars, some of us are willing to die to obtain it, sacrifice marriage, even moral values..You will steal to get them, cheat, even some will kill to own a ferrari, or 1 million dollars. Some of us talk highly about cars, we even make songs dedicated to cars with nice grills etc., take the rappers for example like Ludacris...this is the SPIRITS of the world.. I guess people back then isnt that weird after all, we are no better than them...This is what we call "IDOLATRY"..."Thou shall not have other gods before me"- Bible.. Again there are many gods, and the practices along with those gods are abomination to the real God, the truth. How is the God of Abraham the real God? In other words How is the God of humble, hardworking, faithfull, loving, and kind men the true God? Because His ways are the right way to live, proper way of living, civilized manner, as a true father wants the best for his children, just as a true God will not teach us to hate each other and steal each others' goods...But then again, over the centuries, the human race have different concept of God, just as a kid has different concept of things until he matures...I will explain more later.... Why should I worship "God" and how? Whats the point? Why is it so important to worship the "God" of Abraham? Or the christian God? Why cant I worship the ferrari god, or the cow god, or the snoop doggy dog god? What about the girls gone wild video tape god, why cant I worship them instead? Whats wrong with them? Sofa or Television is not a sin, it is the love of Sofa and Television that makes it a sin...Also, it is not the thing or the something that you worship that makes it a sin. It is the result of it that makes it a sin. What is the result of worship in Karma Sutra? Perversion, which leads to saccrifice of human life, from losing family, to disrespecting women, rape in some case, losing focus in the meaning of life, etc..What is the result of worshipping a "violent" God? Violence, murder, justified because of their god, this is evident in the bible because they thought God is a violent God, and even today, this is visible through the muslim..What you "worship" in your heart, n other words what you treasure in your heart is where your god is, and what your god do is what you do.. For instance, if you worship Arnold Schwarzennerger, or Marvel Super Heroes, you immediately wanted to be buff and muscular, because they are your role model, and their action is the virtue in which you found appealing... So why is it so important to worship the Christian God? Because worshipping Jesus means worshipping his deeds, and action, and what he do..And that is the virtues, beatitudes, moral guidelines, etc. We can be saved through love and the virtues. Whether you carry the title "buddhism" or "hinduism", but you are judged by your virtues, your quality. However, it is very unlikely and unprobably for someone to worship SNOOP DOG or MTV and have good virtues, is NOT perverted, and is very patient, because the MTV god doesnt teach any of that.. FOR ANYONE TO CLAIM THAT THEY REJECT THE WORSHIP OF CHRIST, AND HAVE VIRTUES IN THEM BY WORSHIPPING PERVERTED MTV, THEY ARE A LIAR, TO ME IT IS VERY UNPROBABLE AND UNLIKELY...EVEN THE GOVERNMENT TEACHES THAT WHAT WE SEE, AND WHAT WE HEAR AFFECTS WHAT WE DO... "See no evil, hear no evil, and SPEAK NO evil"...If you dont hear and see evil, then you will not DO EVIL EITHER BY TALKING, OR ACTING... So what is my evidence that the Christian God, and the God of Abraham is the one and only true God? The love he have shown, "As a true Father wants the best for His children and would willing to give up his very life to save him" just as a true God will do the same for his children...No other so-caled Gods have given the profound laws and guidelines effective in governing as Jesus did.. Another is that there is only One God, because all the other cultures, and religion, is not like the christians.. When the apostles were taught of the gospel, they were instructed to keep the event to themselves and tell others about it at a certain time. But people have so much conviction and excitement that they disobeyed Jesus and told everyone they met anyways, they testified Jesus healing, his words, and what he do.. Till this day, this tradition is carried out, ONLY CHRISTIANS IN THE WORLD RELIGION ARE SO CONFIDENT THAT JESUS IS THE LORD THAT THEY WILL GO IN EVERY CORNERS OF THE EARTH TO PROCLAIM IT, THEY ARE SO OVERWHELMED THAT THEY CANNOT KEEP IT TO THEMSELF...That proves that genuinity of our faith, the buddhist, the muslims, and other religions doesnt have that conviction, AS HISTORY SHOWS, even buddhism complains of the westerners evangelizing their own people... For centuries many thought God is evil, cruel, and careless, and because of that, He dont exist. But Jesus calrified the truth........ "Tell them that they are wrong about sin and they are wrong about God's judgment"- Jesus.. "A new commandment, that I give unto you, that yu love one another, as I have loved you. For this I know then, that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another.."- Jesus.. "Love" does not include imposing your beliefs on others. Imposing your beliefs on others has another name: "biggotry." If your religion is constructed so that love equals biggotry, then it is unlikely that your God is anywere near "true." I remind you that no amount of belief can change fact, and that your god is (in your own style of capitalization) NOT FACT (I remind you that I am not using sophist logic, that "not fact" does not necessarily mean "false.") For, if your god were fact, then belief or disbelief would make no difference to him, since a) his laws would be natural and universal b) there is no need to demand obedience for laws which you involuntarily "obey" (you can discuss that with Franko). By your example, it appears that "God" is really just a way to pretend to know how things work so you can stop questioning and get on with your warm and fuzzy life. No knowledge of God is real knowledge. No amount of belief amounts to any knowledge whatsoever. Man desires knowledge, and knowledge really exists. Man turns to God, man does not recieve knowledge, he gets sophistry from people like you. He just feels happy in his oblivion toward the world and his attitude toward God anyway, man never realizes what he's missed out on before he dies. He has only questioned as far as how to do his job and what to think when he's not doing his job. And by the way, based on the world at hand, intuition or feeling has no effect whatsoever on a 50/50 situation such as Pascal's little wager, and the existence of things such as human imagination stack the odds against the fool who knows what God is, for if there is some sort of God, it may have nothing to do with what you "know". And accusing other gods of being false isn't going to help you at all if one of them turns out to be real and not yours, and since other gods outnumber yours, the probability favors any god but yours. (For example, assuming there is a god, and there are 10 possible gods, you have a 9 in 10 chance of being wrong, and if you insult all other possible gods by calling them false, you have a 9 in 10 chance of being poorly recieved by that god. But I suppose probability doesn't matter to the believer until it's too late.) And, just to warn you, if you make a bunch of random claims on this board and don't provide evidence while assuming you right, or even make the attempt to use logic to support those claims, you may recieve the honorable title of
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

6th February 2003, 03:41 AM	#18
CWL Funkateer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 1,370	Quote: Originally posted by thaiboxerken There isn't any scientific evidence of god. That's part of the reason I'm atheist. Another reason I'm atheist is because I actually read the christian bible. Fully agreed. But don't forget the Theodicy Problem. That one is really the final nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned.
	__________________ "All is not true which resembles truth" - Swedish Code for Judges (probably composed around 1540) "The obscurely spoken is the obscurely thought" - Swedish poet Esaias Tegnér (1782 - 1846) "Precisely because of human fallibility, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan

6th February 2003, 04:01 AM	#19
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Muscleman. Most of what you write is rather confusing, the bits in capitals are more interesting than the bits that are not. Have you considered typing your entire posts in capitals In order to make it all interesting? Whenever I start to post stuff like yours I find soaking my head in very salty water helps reduce the swelling and I no longer feel the need to save the world from the fires of hell. After you have spent 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000 years in heaven, I hope you still have fond memories of this forum and the nice people you met here.... One thing I would stress is not to forget the dice for the monopoly game. It would be a real pain in the arse to be in heaven all that time just staring at the box, wishing you could have a quick game. Bye now.... P.S. Note to all, before you consider quoting musclemans entire post in your replies, consider the finite amount of server space on the planet.
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

6th February 2003, 08:49 AM	#20
fidiot Thinker Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 181	Quote: Originally posted by The Fool P.S. Note to all, before you consider quoting musclemans entire post in your replies, consider the finite amount of server space on the planet. Too bad this is not heaven, we'd have all the forum space that we want
fidiot Thinker Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 181	__________________ "If the book the Bible and my brain are both the work of the same Infinite God, whose fault is it that the book and my brain do not agree?" - Robert Ingersoll "No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude." - Karl Popper

6th February 2003, 10:11 AM	#21
Wile E. Coyote Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 342	Ooh, ooh! Look everyone, it's a train wreck! Seriously, muscleman does not belong on a skeptic's forum. He questions nothing. Even Franko has some original ideas, but muscleman just spews the same crap the Catholic church has been spewing for centuries. muscleman, please stop preaching here. Your feeble statements are backed only by rumor and speculation, and skeptics are not at all likely to accept what you say as anything other than monkey screeching.

6th February 2003, 10:18 AM	#22
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,345	Quote: Originally posted by tjwojo Seriously, muscleman does not belong on a skeptic's forum. He questions nothing. Even Franko has some original ideas, but muscleman just spews the same crap the Catholic church has been spewing for centuries. Actually, tjwojo, Muscleman is Franko, or rather they are both creations of The Dungeonmaster. Though the Franko persona is definately more interesting, they both use identical tactics and neither can deviate an angstrom from the character charts that the DM has drawn up for them. That is why you will never get a concession on any point from either. This is apparently a little internet game this person plays to amuse himself. I've been playing for quite a while, and I admit it can be fun. Don't think for an instant, though, that you will ever be able to have a real conversation with an imaginary character.

6th February 2003, 10:33 AM	#23
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	Quote: Originally posted by muscleman And Dave, LOL, your right, virtue is all there is to my life (religion) and I apply it wherevere I go, when I go to parties, play sports, go to school, or even date... I'm guessing modesty and humility are not on your long list of virtues.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

6th February 2003, 10:33 AM	#24
Wile E. Coyote Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 342	Quote: Originally posted by Tricky Actually, tjwojo, Muscleman is Franko, or rather they are both creations of The Dungeonmaster. Though the Franko persona is definately more interesting, they both use identical tactics and neither can deviate an angstrom from the character charts that the DM has drawn up for them. That is why you will never get a concession on any point from either. This is apparently a little internet game this person plays to amuse himself. I've been playing for quite a while, and I admit it can be fun. Don't think for an instant, though, that you will ever be able to have a real conversation with an imaginary character. Thanks for the insight! I will keep that in mind when I am considering punching my hand through my monitor.

6th February 2003, 11:02 AM	#25
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470	How deliciously ironic. The creator proves responsible for the behavior of his creations, including racism, and is judged accordingly. --J.D.
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470

6th February 2003, 11:11 AM	#26
Samus space hunter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,003	Quote: Originally posted by Tricky [Actually, tjwojo, Muscleman is Franko, or rather they are both creations of The Dungeonmaster. Not to spoil the fun, but is there a moderator on this site that can back that claim? We don't allow so-called "sock puppets" on the forums I mod, and we use the IP address logging to help enforce that. Regardless, some arguments will never end. Better watch your back tjwojo, you don't want muscleman to kick your butt (as he has admitted to being an accomplished boxer).
Samus space hunter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,003

6th February 2003, 11:12 AM	#27
ntech JREF Kid Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Salisbury Mills, New York Posts: 812	Hey muscleman How is the food there in the mental ward?
	__________________ We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces. - Carl Sagan

6th February 2003, 11:24 AM	#28
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470	Quote: . . . as he has admitted to being an accomplished boxer. . . . Which, I am sure, we should consider to have the same reliability as all of his other claims. Nevertheless, if indeed an accomplished boxer, a gentleman he is not. --J.D.
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470

6th February 2003, 11:30 AM	#29
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,345	Quote: Originally posted by dwb Not to spoil the fun, but is there a moderator on this site that can back that claim? We don't allow so-called "sock puppets" on the forums I mod, and we use the IP address logging to help enforce that. Nope, sorry dwb. This is an unmoderated forum, except for certain threads. We have had a few acknowledged sock puppets here (for example, Undercover Elephant has another persona which he no longer uses called Juggler). People have asked for IP addresses before (or even just to check if there are duplicates) and the answer has been resounding silence. That is one reason why The Dungeonmaster likes this forum so much.

6th February 2003, 11:34 AM	#30
AP's sock puppet Thinker Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 141	Quote: Originally posted by dwb Not to spoil the fun, but is there a moderator on this site that can back that claim? We don't allow so-called "sock puppets" on the forums I mod, and we use the IP address logging to help enforce that. How discriminatory. After all, sock puppets are people too.
AP's sock puppet Thinker Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 141	__________________ I'm not going to be anybody's puppet, particularly not my own. - Zaphod Beeblebrox

6th February 2003, 12:18 PM	#31
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: but is there a moderator on this site that can back that claim? We don't allow so-called "sock puppets" on the forums I mod, and we use the IP address logging to help enforce that. Ohh the A-Theists would never tolerate that! Without there assortment of sock-puppets and other logical fallacies the A-Theists are nothing. They certainly have no logical evidence to back up their ridiculous religious dogma. If we take away the A-Theists ability to sock-puppet themselves silly it wouldn't be neary as fun exposing them as the arrogant imbeciles that they truly are.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

6th February 2003, 12:20 PM	#32
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Quote: Originally posted by AP's sock puppet How discriminatory. After all, sock puppets are people too. People other than themselves. The difference is between an actor and a character played by that actor.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

6th February 2003, 05:40 PM	#33
justsaygnosis Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 263	Quote: Originally posted by The Fool Muscleman. P.S. Note to all, before you consider quoting musclemans entire post in your replies, consider the finite amount of server space on the planet. Good to see your avatar on the board again. How's your daughter doing?
	__________________ I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken. I've been wrong lots of times. 'One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - and yet it is the most precious thing we have.' Albert Einstein

6th February 2003, 05:58 PM	#34
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	The thread is too long to read in its entirety, so I'll stick to the thread title: Taking your souls back How long is the warranty period? Do we have to take in the original receipt with it?
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

6th February 2003, 05:59 PM	#35
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	Quote: Originally posted by c4ts People other than themselves. The difference is between an actor and a character played by that actor. "Things are seldom what they seem. Skim milk masquerades as cream."
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw