Prayer and power

elliotfc · 12th July 2006, 06:04 AM

I'm surprised when people study the power of prayer, or make websites like why God won't heal amputees.

1. If God did answer prayer, the mind absolutely boggles. If I prayed that the most beautiful woman in the world would fall in love with me, and 180982 other guys prayed the same thing, then what? If I prayed that I had all the money in the world, and another person prayed that they had enough money to survive, then what? If I prayed that I would never experience physical death, but my neighbor prays for me to die a painful death, then what?

2. Given the above, it seems reasonable for God to *detach* himself from the whole prayer situation, dontcha think?

3. When we pray, *we are rejecting power, not embracing it*. Prayer is different from, say, a superstition like the Ghost Dance. Various Indian groups performed the Ghost Dance because they believed in would exert power and control over God, who would then give benefits to them and resurrect their dead warriors and all that. Press the button, and X happens. *BUT CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE THIS EXPECTATION IN PRAYER*. Or, rather, they ought not to have that expectation. Christians reject superstition, the belief that God can be controlled if I just do A, B, and C. When we pray, we ask, we question, we praise, we think, we talk, all that. But it is not result orientated! If it was, *IT WOULD HAVE DISAPPEARED COMPELTELY, JUST AS THE GHOST DANCE DISAPPEARED COMPLETELY*.

4. The Lord's Prayer, given to us by Jesus, contains all that anyone ought to need to know about the reality of prayer, for the Christian. It is directed to the Father. It is about the Father. It is not about us. It recognizes the relationship, and keeps our reality in perspective. His will be done, not ours. In the kind of prayer I often see ruminated about on this forum, we wonder why *OUR WILL* is not done when we pray. That is out of order. When we pray, we ask that *God's will* be done. Do we ask for things? Of course. Food, forgiveness, strength, all that stuff, culminating in deliverance from evil. Yet those requests are within the framework of God's will. Jesus prayed before the crucifixion, and God's will was done. *That's prayer*.

Pardon me for saying so...but I think this is all basic Christianity and I'm surprised that individuals think they've had some major epiphany by realizing that God doesn't heal amputees or that people would waste time conducting scientific studies on prayer efficacy. When we pray, we are embracing our weakness, and we are not exerting any power over God at all. Christ told us not to put him to the test, and expecting prayer to "work" is doing just that.

-Elliot

Darat · 12th July 2006, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by elliotfc

I'm surprised when people study the power of prayer, or make websites like why God won't heal amputees.

1. If God did answer prayer, the mind absolutely boggles. If I prayed that the most beautiful woman in the world would fall in love with me, and 180982 other guys prayed the same thing, then what? If I prayed that I had all the money in the world, and another person prayed that they had enough money to survive, then what? If I prayed that I would never experience physical death, but my neighbor prays for me to die a painful death, then what?

Yet the Bible tells us that God will answer prayers.

Originally Posted by elliotfc

2. Given the above, it seems reasonable for God to *detach* himself from the whole prayer situation, dontcha think?

Not really - he's all knowing and all powerful, must Christians would not accept the limits you are putting on God's powers.

Originally Posted by elliotfc

3. When we pray, *we are rejecting power, not embracing it*. Prayer is different from, say, a superstition like the Ghost Dance. Various Indian groups performed the Ghost Dance because they believed in would exert power and control over God, who would then give benefits to them and resurrect their dead warriors and all that. Press the button, and X happens. *BUT CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE THIS EXPECTATION IN PRAYER*. Or, rather, they ought not to have that expectation. Christians reject superstition, the belief that God can be controlled if I just do A, B, and C. When we pray, we ask, we question, we praise, we think, we talk, all that. But it is not result orientated! If it was, *IT WOULD HAVE DISAPPEARED COMPELTELY, JUST AS THE GHOST DANCE DISAPPEARED COMPLETELY*.

A lot of theological study has been devoted to prayer and what it means, your summation does not do justice to how Christians view this very complex and difficult point of their doctrine.

Originally Posted by elliotfc

4. The Lord's Prayer, given to us by Jesus, contains all that anyone ought to need to know about the reality of prayer, for the Christian. It is directed to the Father. It is about the Father. It is not about us. It recognizes the relationship, and keeps our reality in perspective. His will be done, not ours. In the kind of prayer I often see ruminated about on this forum, we wonder why *OUR WILL* is not done when we pray. That is out of order. When we pray, we ask that *God's will* be done. Do we ask for things? Of course. Food, forgiveness, strength, all that stuff, culminating in deliverance from evil. Yet those requests are within the framework of God's will. Jesus prayed before the crucifixion, and God's will was done. *That's prayer*.

The Lord's Prayer has also been a matter of great debate and again your summary does not do it justice, indeed we need to always start with which version and even which translation before we start to discuss it.

An interesting site that may provide you with a good starting point to explore the fascinating history of the Lord's prayer and some of the debates about what it actually means can be found at this site: http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

Originally Posted by elliotfc

Pardon me for saying so...but I think this is all basic Christianity and I'm surprised that individuals think they've had some major epiphany by realizing that God doesn't heal amputees or that people would waste time conducting scientific studies on prayer efficacy. When we pray, we are embracing our weakness, and we are not exerting any power over God at all. Christ told us not to put him to the test, and expecting prayer to "work" is doing just that.

-Elliot

With all due respect it would appear from this post that you have a superficial understanding of Christian doctrine and the history of Christian theological debate.

Genesius · 12th July 2006, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by elliotfc

Pardon me for saying so...but I think this is all basic Christianity and I'm surprised that individuals think they've had some major epiphany by realizing that God doesn't heal amputees or that people would waste time conducting scientific studies on prayer efficacy. When we pray, we are embracing our weakness, and we are not exerting any power over God at all. Christ told us not to put him to the test, and expecting prayer to "work" is doing just that.

-Elliot

Jesus also said:

Quote:

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 14:13-14

Pretty straightforward - you ask for it in Jesus' name, and you got it. A promise Jesus has broken every single day for over 2000 years.

Marquis de Carabas · 12th July 2006, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by elliotfc

1. If God did answer prayer, the mind absolutely boggles. If I prayed that the most beautiful woman in the world would fall in love with me, and 180982 other guys prayed the same thing, then what?

Try not to be the guy who winds up with sloppy one hundred eighty thousand nine hundred eighty thirds.

elliotfc · 12th July 2006, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Yet the Bible tells us that God will answer prayers.

Yes, but you can answer a question in many, many, many ways. I often give vauge answers to my students...for a very particular reason.

What I'm saying is that God doesn't answer prayers in the same way that someone would answer 8 if you ask what's 2 times 4.

Quote:

Not really - he's all knowing and all powerful, must Christians would not accept the limits you are putting on God's powers.

I disagree with you on this point, and short of polling data that's that.

Quote:

A lot of theological study has been devoted to prayer and what it means, your summation does not do justice to how Christians view this very complex and difficult point of their doctrine.

I think that many theologians probably go through contortions that lay Christians don't...but that's of course speculation on my part. I talk to ordinary Catholics about these things often, people who'll never visit forums or write theolgoical treatises. I pray with people often too. We understand the deal. No one is ever going to stand up one day and say "wait a second...what if God doesn't heal this person's cancer...then what!?!?!?"

During the Catholic Mass petitions, specific ones, are *always* offered, and we perfectly understand that it is God's will, and not our will, that will govern the "results" of our prayer. The exercise of prayer in and of itself, however, is the focus of the Prayers of the Faithful, and not the result. I hate to call this elementary, but this is century upon century, probably literally billions of Catholic masses.

Quote:

The Lord's Prayer has also been a matter of great debate and again your summary does not do it justice, indeed we need to always start with which version and even which translation before we start to discuss it.

Thanks for the weblink, forgive me for saying this...but those translations are themselves loaded, don't you think? Without question the website is anti-Church. Of course though...the gospels were written in Greek. At the moment I don't know where the Aramaic came from...was the Aramaic deduced from the Greek? The site doesn't say.

Here is something more direct. Which is better? I dunno.
http://www.barefootsworld.net/lordpray.html

Quote:

With all due respect it would appear from this post that you have a superficial understanding of Christian doctrine and the history of Christian theological debate.

Thanks Darat! Have a nice one!

-Elliot

elliotfc · 12th July 2006, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Genesius

Jesus also said:
John 14:13-14

Pretty straightforward - you ask for it in Jesus' name, and you got it. A promise Jesus has broken every single day for over 2000 years.

When you pray in *his name*. When you pray, with expectations that anything you want be done, you are praying in *your name*, that your will be done.

When you pray in the name of Jesus, you pray that his will be done, and not yours.

When we pray that a loved one be healed of cancer, do we pray that so that the Father may be glorified in the Son, or, do we pray that so we could have a loved one healed so we can continue to live with that person, or, so that person could continue to live?

If Jesus said, ask me anything, and I'll do it!, not only would I completely succumb to your point, I also reckon that Christians wouldn't pray nearly as much as they do. But there are additions like "in my name", and "that the Father be glorified in the Son" that, again, pllace the focus on God and not on ourselves.

-Elliot

elliotfc · 12th July 2006, 06:54 AM

One more thing Darat if you'd care to address...how would God handle situation 1 that I offered, in your opinion? Of course this assumes that God exists.

-Elliot

Darat · 12th July 2006, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by elliotfc

...snip..

I disagree with you on this point, and short of polling data that's that.

...snip...

It is part of the Roman Catholic faith and is therefore the belief of the vast majority of Christians.

Originally Posted by elliotfc

I think that many theologians probably go through contortions that lay Christians don't...but that's of course speculation on my part. I talk to ordinary Catholics about these things often, people who'll never visit forums or write theolgoical treatises. I pray with people often too. We understand the deal. No one is ever going to stand up one day and say "wait a second...what if God doesn't heal this person's cancer...then what!?!?!?"

Therefore as I said your understanding is superficial I would suggest you visit the Vatican's website and start to read what the Pope and others have to say about prayer. I would hope you would find it enlightening. (I also include another site of links below.)

Originally Posted by elliotfc

During the Catholic Mass petitions, specific ones, are *always* offered, and we perfectly understand that it is God's will, and not our will, that will govern the "results" of our prayer. The exercise of prayer in and of itself, however, is the focus of the Prayers of the Faithful, and not the result. I hate to call this elementary, but this is century upon century, probably literally billions of Catholic masses.

I presume you mean Roman Catholic? A good starting point that has links to many of the "classical" Roman Catholic treaties etc. on prayer is here: http://landru.i-link-2.net/shnyves/prayer.html#Texts

Originally Posted by elliotfc

Thanks for the weblink, forgive me for saying this...but those translations are themselves loaded, don't you think? Without question the website is anti-Church. Of course though...the gospels were written in Greek. At the moment I don't know where the Aramaic came from...was the Aramaic deduced from the Greek? The site doesn't say.

Which translations? The different ones in the KJ Bible, the different ones used by the Protestant and Roman Catholic Churches?

Originally Posted by elliotfc

Here is something more direct. Which is better? I dunno.
http://www.barefootsworld.net/lordpray.html

...snip...

I don't know either - which was rather the point of my first reply.

Darat · 12th July 2006, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by elliotfc

One more thing Darat if you'd care to address...how would God handle situation 1 that I offered, in your opinion? Of course this assumes that God exists.

-Elliot

I have no idea, and doesn't the Bible makes it very clear that God is not subject to human limitations, and that humans can never understand God?

Meffy · 12th July 2006, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by elliotfc

Yes, but you can answer a question in many, many, many ways.

Indeed.

elliotfc · 12th July 2006, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

It is part of the Roman Catholic faith and is therefore the belief of the vast majority of Christians.

Darat, being all-knowing and all-powerful doesn't mean that you *have* to do anything and everything that anybody asks you to do.

-Elliot

elliotfc · 12th July 2006, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I have no idea, and doesn't the Bible makes it very clear that God is not subject to human limitations, and that humans can never understand God?

OK, so then it is possible for God to allow me to live forever and die right now?

*God* may have no limitations. What about us? Do any limitations restrict me from living forever and dying right now?

I think you're suggesting that a Christian ought never to use reason, logic, or good sense because God is not subject to human limitations. If so, it's pointless for me to continue to discuss anything in this forum, don't you think?

-Elliot

Meffy · 12th July 2006, 07:09 AM

"New, improved, omniscient-omnipotent-omnibenevolent GOD answers prayers!!! Not even the fall of the sparrow escapes his notice, so you can be sure he'll listen to you!"
(some restrictions may apply)

Grand absolutes lose their strength when hedged about with all these disclaimers and exceptions and -- let's be honest here -- excuses. If God is such a grand absolute why does he depend on escape clauses and weasel words to get him out of all those tight spots?

Anti_Hypeman · 12th July 2006, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by elliotfc

*BUT CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE THIS EXPECTATION IN PRAYER*

How do you explain the lines outside Benny Hinns crusades? Why do the two christian channels I get concentrate on promising healings 24/7? Why does Pat Robertson constantly jawbone about the "law of reciprocity", if you give to Jesus he WILL give it back with interest. Why do they constantly run sotries about people who gave to the 700 club and mysteriously got healed or found a large check in the mail? Why dont mainstream chrisitans condem him if its not true?

My city is full of small time faith healers and "healing rooms". Are the people who run these events or participate in them christian? I suppose the mega rich christian groups are supported by just a tiny minority? Or are they all fake christians doomed to hell?

Lothian · 12th July 2006, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by elliotfc

Darat, being all-knowing and all-powerful doesn't mean that you *have* to do anything and everything that anybody asks you to do.

-Elliot

Being all-knowing and all-powerful, Darat knows that. Oh......

Darat · 12th July 2006, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by elliotfc

OK, so then it is possible for God to allow me to live forever and die right now?

If you believe in the Roman Catholic version of Christianity then God is capable of everything.

Originally Posted by elliotfc

*God* may have no limitations. What about us? Do any limitations restrict me from living forever and dying right now?

The answer is the same if you believe in an omnipotent God then he is not limited in any way (else he would not be omnipotent).

I am of course arguing this in a very superficial manner since the limitations or not of God's power is another subject that many Chrsitians have argued over for many centuries. Some do conclude as you seem to do that there are some things God cannot do, whilst others conclude that God can do anything.

Originally Posted by elliotfc

I think you're suggesting that a Christian ought never to use reason, logic, or good sense because God is not subject to human limitations. If so, it's pointless for me to continue to discuss anything in this forum, don't you think?

-Elliot

That is up to you and what you believe. However your OP seemed to be criticising Members for not understanding Christianity yet in doing so seemed to demonstrate that you were quite unaware of the depth of Christian theology and the extent of the on going debate about aspects of Christian faith such as prayer.

Bri · 12th July 2006, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Originally Posted by elliotfc

OK, so then it is possible for God to allow me to live forever and die right now?

If you believe in the Roman Catholic version of Christianity then God is capable of everything.

Everything that is logically possible, but not the logically impossible as would be the case of allowing someone to live forever yet die at the same time.

According to Wikipedia:

Quote:

Mainstream Catholic theology eventually reconciled itself to the Greek and Arabic material the Reconquista made available, thanks in large part to Thomas Aquinas, whose Summa Theologica affirmed the notion that God could not defy logic.

-Bri

Anacoluthon64 · 12th July 2006, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Meffy

Indeed.

Though garbed in the enlivening raiments of satire, that story, if its background be even vaguely factual, remains a tearing heartbreaker.

Believer or no.

Dewy-eyed 'Luthon64

Tricky · 12th July 2006, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by elliotfc

3. When we pray, *we are rejecting power, not embracing it*. Prayer is different from, say, a superstition like the Ghost Dance. Various Indian groups performed the Ghost Dance because they believed in would exert power and control over God, who would then give benefits to them and resurrect their dead warriors and all that. Press the button, and X happens. *BUT CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE THIS EXPECTATION IN PRAYER*. Or, rather, they ought not to have that expectation. Christians reject superstition, the belief that God can be controlled if I just do A, B, and C. When we pray, we ask, we question, we praise, we think, we talk, all that. But it is not result orientated!

I do not believe that most Christians feel this way about prayer. Listen to a survivor of a scary situation and if he is a Christian, it is likely he will say that he was saved because he prayed. The clear statement is that if he had not prayed, he would not have been saved.

And indeed, what is the point of prayer if it is nothing more than to give God credit? If it's all God's doing, then He knows it. Do you really think God requires praise in order to do what he does?

No, I believe that people pray to God with at least some expectations, even if that expectation is only that He will guide them. And a lot of times, they have much greater expectations. My father-in-law who is receiving hospice care in our home, recieves two or three cards a day called "Prayergrams" from a Baptist church where his niece worships. These cards are specifically labeled "Intercessory Prayer". Now I ask you, what could an intercessory prayer be other than a request/hope/wish for God to intercede? Sure, they will take "no" as an answer, as the saying goes, but it is quite clear that they are asking.

I think, Elliot, that you are probably one of the only people who prays to God with absolutely no expectations of evidence that your prayer was heard.

grayman · 12th July 2006, 08:02 AM

Why you'll never be able to logically debate this issue with a devout believer...

If God answers my prayers: It's a miracle.

If God doesn't answer my prayers: It's God's will.

Darat · 12th July 2006, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Bri

Everything that is logically possible, but not the logically impossible as would be the case of allowing someone to live forever yet die at the same time.

According to Wikipedia:

-Bri

That is a well balanced article, thanks.

Note that it says "mainstream", this is one of those arguments that as far as I know has never been subject to a "final" decision as far as the Roman Catholic Church is concerned.

Interestingly one way of interpreting Catholic Doctrine is that the question posed "allowing someone to live forever yet die at the same time" could be answered by Mary's Ascension to heaven? (I've never thought of this before so feel free to rain on my parade!)

Bri · 12th July 2006, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Note that it says "mainstream", this is one of those arguments that as far as I know has never been subject to a "final" decision as far as the Roman Catholic Church is concerned.

I don't know. Perhaps ceo_esq will grace us with his presence and provide some insight.

Quote:

Interestingly one way of interpreting Catholic Doctrine is that the question posed "allowing someone to live forever yet die at the same time" could be answered by Mary's Ascension to heaven? (I've never thought of this before so feel free to rain on my parade!)

Possibly, but that would allow the situation to be logically possible. I believe elliotfc was referring to God's ability to do the logically impossible.

-Bri

Anti_Hypeman · 12th July 2006, 08:19 AM

When the miners were thought to be saved it was only by gods grace.

When all but one turned out to be dead god gets none of the blame.

Why the double standard?

JamesDillon · 12th July 2006, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by Anti_Hypeman

When the miners were thought to be saved it was only by gods grace.

When all but one turned out to be dead god gets none of the blame.

Why the double standard?

I think Grayman has it right.

Good thing happens: It's a miracle, and proof of God's existence.
Bad thing happens: It's God's will.

It's the world's longest-running confirmation bias.

Anti_Hypeman · 12th July 2006, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by JamesDillon

I think Grayman has it right.

Good thing happens: It's a miracle, and proof of God's existence.
Bad thing happens: It's God's will.

It's the world's longest-running confirmation bias.

Its like a coach claiming to be undefeated because he does not count the losses.

RandFan · 12th July 2006, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by elliotfc

Yes, but you can answer a question in many, many, many ways.

How do you distinguish that from not answering a question? Prayer and "God's blessings" was a major reason I became a deist and ultimately an atheist. All of the evidence pointed to the incontrovertible fact that either God didn't answer prayers or his answers were indistinguishable from God not answering prayers. I haven't prayed in more than a decade and I could not honestly tell you how my life is demonstrably different. If my life had been different I would have gone back to praying. For the longest time after I left the church and stopped praying much of me wanted to believe, to go to church and to pray.

elliotfc · 12th July 2006, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Meffy

"New, improved, omniscient-omnipotent-omnibenevolent GOD answers prayers!!! Not even the fall of the sparrow escapes his notice, so you can be sure he'll listen to you!"
(some restrictions may apply)

Grand absolutes lose their strength when hedged about with all these disclaimers and exceptions and -- let's be honest here -- excuses. If God is such a grand absolute why does he depend on escape clauses and weasel words to get him out of all those tight spots?

What tight spots?

Why should God do whatever we tell him to do?

-Elliot

Meffy · 12th July 2006, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Anacoluthon64

Though garbed in the enlivening raiments of satire, that story, if its background be even vaguely factual, remains a tearing heartbreaker.

Believer or no.

Doesn't help to know that tens or hundreds of thousands of real-life stories are very much like the satirical one in the Onion. :-(

When Winston Churchill was told that England's neck would be wrung like a chicken's (by a little guy with a funny mustache) he responded "Some chicken! Some neck!"

When considering things like so-called "answers to prayer" I have to think "Some answer! Some omnibenevolence!"

[edited for clearer wording]

Meffy · 12th July 2006, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by elliotfc

What tight spots?

Why should God do whatever we tell him to do?

Because he said he would, and he's infallible. You've had the quotations of his perfect and inviolable word earlier in the threads. Why then does he have to resort to loopholes to get out of his own promise? Seems awfully cheap to me.

[edit] What tight spots? The situations in which according to god's promise he would fulfill prayers but in which he didn't. You hardly have to dig to find such situations.

elliotfc · 12th July 2006, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Anti_Hypeman

How do you explain the lines outside Benny Hinns crusades?

You don't have to see Benny Hinn to pray. If you want to pray, pray. If you want to see Benny Hill, I mean Hinn, go see Benny Hinn. I don't know why people want to go to see Benny Hinn. I would ask them why don't they just go to church and pray.

Quote:

Why do the two christian channels I get concentrate on promising healings 24/7?

They are appealing to a select number of people. How many people watch those channels by the way?

Quote:

Why does Pat Robertson constantly jawbone about the "law of reciprocity", if you give to Jesus he WILL give it back with interest.

Is he only talking about this life, or the next life as well?

Quote:

Why do they constantly run sotries about people who gave to the 700 club and mysteriously got healed or found a large check in the mail?

I didn't say that prayers *never* get answered. If they do get answered, it is because it is God's will, and not ours.

Quote:

Why dont mainstream chrisitans condem him if its not true?

Pat Robertson *does* get bashed my mainstream Christians.

Quote:

My city is full of small time faith healers and "healing rooms". Are the people who run these events or participate in them christian?

Sure, or, probably.

Quote:

I suppose the mega rich christian groups are supported by just a tiny minority? Or are they all fake christians doomed to hell?

If you're talking about the mega churches that seat thousands, I submit that such people believe that God answers prayers in his own way, and not in our way.

I don't know who is doomed to hell.

-Elliot

Meffy · 12th July 2006, 10:04 AM

How is this not a list of loopholes, excuses, escapes, evasions, and dodges...?

RandFan · 12th July 2006, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by elliotfc

What tight spots?

Why should God do whatever we tell him to do?

-Elliot

???

I'm confused.

Quote:

For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
--Luke 11:10 - 12

What is meant by ask and ye shall receive? Receive what?

Look closely at verse 11. If the father asks for his dying child to be spared and the child dies how is that consistent with the scripture?

elliotfc · 12th July 2006, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

If you believe in the Roman Catholic version of Christianity then God is capable of everything.

Darat, perhaps we can both agree to yield to newadvent.org on this one:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

I'll read this over lunch, then return to this question.

Quote:

The answer is the same if you believe in an omnipotent God then he is not limited in any way (else he would not be omnipotent).

Christians believe that we can grasp God's nature in several ways...the Bible of course...the person of Jesus...and using our intellects as well. I don't know how a rationalist Christian like Pascal would consider my point. The question to me is not limiting God's power. We are not God's power. We are created with limitations. Now, God could *transform* me into something that could do some extraordinary things, or all of us into doing some extraordinary things.

In the *state* we are in, God answering all of our prayers is out of order. What if we prayed for God to stop being God, and to make one of us God instead? What if we prayed for God to destroy all of the universe including himself? It's not a question of omnipotence as much as why God should jump through our hoops. Why should God do something just because we tell him to do it?

Quote:

I am of course arguing this in a very superficial manner since the limitations or not of God's power is another subject that many Chrsitians have argued over for many centuries. Some do conclude as you seem to do that there are some things God cannot do, whilst others conclude that God can do anything.

If we may drop the omnipotent thing for just a bit...given our understanding of the nature of God, why should God answer every prayer, particularly the ones that just boggle the mind, the ones that would seem to create a most chaotic and untenable existence?

Quote:

That is up to you and what you believe. However your OP seemed to be criticising Members for not understanding Christianity yet in doing so seemed to demonstrate that you were quite unaware of the depth of Christian theology and the extent of the on going debate about aspects of Christian faith such as prayer.

I am criticizing members for not following through with the "why doesn't God answer prayer" bit as far as it can go.

-Elliot

Anti_Hypeman · 12th July 2006, 10:13 AM

I went to a live miracle crusade and saw the anguished looks on the faces of the sick that didnt get heald. They expected miracles. They were outright promised miracles if they showed faith and "gave god his cake first". Meaning that if you give god everything and trust him to take care of you he will. Go ahead and drop the rent money in the bucket because you cant outgive Jesus.

You can read the full account here http://www.lfplc.net/crusade.htm and downlaod the evidence since I recorded the event. Late night on CBN the local loon churches run shows. They all promise miracles for money and the people that pay n pray expect personal divine healng. The fact that Benny Hinn is still standing is strong proof against the biblical god.

RandFan · 12th July 2006, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by elliotfc

I am criticizing members for not following through with the "why doesn't God answer prayer" bit as far as it can go.

-Elliot

I would just like to know how one would distinguish your version of God answering prayers with God not answering prayers at all? It's a sincere question and I think it begs an answer.

Meffy · 12th July 2006, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by elliotfc

Now, God could *transform* me into something that could do some extraordinary things, or all of us into doing some extraordinary things.

Elliot, you are already something that can do extraordinary things! You're a living, thinking person, capable of righting injustices and fixing flat tires; locating a neighboring galaxy using nothing more than binoculars -- or even just your own eyes; using a planet-spanning communications network to engage in discussion with people you'll never meet... just think of the extraordinary things you're able to do, or could learn to do.

It doesn't take a god to do that. It takes YOU. If you believe in a god too, so be it. But extraordinary things are done by perfectly ordinary people every day. Let the scales fall from your eyes and see what's going on all around you, all the time. Some of it is quite extraordinary.

Meffy · 12th July 2006, 10:21 AM

@Anti_Hypeman: That kind of sick exploitation of those least deserving of such abuse... it just makes my blood boil. Almost makes me wish supernatural retribution were for real.

RandFan · 12th July 2006, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Meffy

Elliot, you are already something that can do extraordinary things! You're a living, thinking person, capable of righting injustices and fixing flat tires; locating a neighboring galaxy using nothing more than binoculars -- or even just your own eyes; using a planet-spanning communications network to engage in discussion with people you'll never meet... just think of the extraordinary things you're able to do, or could learn to do.

It doesn't take a god to do that. It takes YOU. If you believe in a god too, so be it. But extraordinary things are done by perfectly ordinary people every day. Let the scales fall from your eyes and see what's going on all around you, all the time. Some of it is quite extraordinary.

cgordon · 12th July 2006, 10:36 AM

You can't have it both ways. Either God is omnimax and can do anything (and will if entreated humbly enough) or God is just ignoring the prayers of the dying, the terminal, the tortured and the deformed ... as well as those of the blessed.

Or ... maybe ... there is no god and we find our own answers and have to deal with reality without hope provided by an invisible superfriend.

Meffy · 12th July 2006, 10:38 AM

@RandFan: *9_9* Well, it's so. People short-change themselves all the time, and I don't think that's good for the psyche. Miracles come from people, not gods.

12th July 2006, 06:04 AM	#1
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772	Prayer and power I'm surprised when people study the power of prayer, or make websites like why God won't heal amputees. 1. If God did answer prayer, the mind absolutely boggles. If I prayed that the most beautiful woman in the world would fall in love with me, and 180982 other guys prayed the same thing, then what? If I prayed that I had all the money in the world, and another person prayed that they had enough money to survive, then what? If I prayed that I would never experience physical death, but my neighbor prays for me to die a painful death, then what? 2. Given the above, it seems reasonable for God to detach himself from the whole prayer situation, dontcha think? 3. When we pray, we are rejecting power, not embracing it. Prayer is different from, say, a superstition like the Ghost Dance. Various Indian groups performed the Ghost Dance because they believed in would exert power and control over God, who would then give benefits to them and resurrect their dead warriors and all that. Press the button, and X happens. BUT CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE THIS EXPECTATION IN PRAYER. Or, rather, they ought not to have that expectation. Christians reject superstition, the belief that God can be controlled if I just do A, B, and C. When we pray, we ask, we question, we praise, we think, we talk, all that. But it is not result orientated! If it was, IT WOULD HAVE DISAPPEARED COMPELTELY, JUST AS THE GHOST DANCE DISAPPEARED COMPLETELY. 4. The Lord's Prayer, given to us by Jesus, contains all that anyone ought to need to know about the reality of prayer, for the Christian. It is directed to the Father. It is about the Father. It is not about us. It recognizes the relationship, and keeps our reality in perspective. His will be done, not ours. In the kind of prayer I often see ruminated about on this forum, we wonder why OUR WILL is not done when we pray. That is out of order. When we pray, we ask that God's will be done. Do we ask for things? Of course. Food, forgiveness, strength, all that stuff, culminating in deliverance from evil. Yet those requests are within the framework of God's will. Jesus prayed before the crucifixion, and God's will was done. That's prayer. Pardon me for saying so...but I think this is all basic Christianity and I'm surprised that individuals think they've had some major epiphany by realizing that God doesn't heal amputees or that people would waste time conducting scientific studies on prayer efficacy. When we pray, we are embracing our weakness, and we are not exerting any power over God at all. Christ told us not to put him to the test, and expecting prayer to "work" is doing just that. -Elliot
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772

12th July 2006, 06:16 AM	#2
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Originally Posted by elliotfc I'm surprised when people study the power of prayer, or make websites like why God won't heal amputees. 1. If God did answer prayer, the mind absolutely boggles. If I prayed that the most beautiful woman in the world would fall in love with me, and 180982 other guys prayed the same thing, then what? If I prayed that I had all the money in the world, and another person prayed that they had enough money to survive, then what? If I prayed that I would never experience physical death, but my neighbor prays for me to die a painful death, then what? Yet the Bible tells us that God will answer prayers. Originally Posted by elliotfc 2. Given the above, it seems reasonable for God to detach himself from the whole prayer situation, dontcha think? Not really - he's all knowing and all powerful, must Christians would not accept the limits you are putting on God's powers. Originally Posted by elliotfc 3. When we pray, we are rejecting power, not embracing it. Prayer is different from, say, a superstition like the Ghost Dance. Various Indian groups performed the Ghost Dance because they believed in would exert power and control over God, who would then give benefits to them and resurrect their dead warriors and all that. Press the button, and X happens. BUT CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE THIS EXPECTATION IN PRAYER. Or, rather, they ought not to have that expectation. Christians reject superstition, the belief that God can be controlled if I just do A, B, and C. When we pray, we ask, we question, we praise, we think, we talk, all that. But it is not result orientated! If it was, IT WOULD HAVE DISAPPEARED COMPELTELY, JUST AS THE GHOST DANCE DISAPPEARED COMPLETELY. A lot of theological study has been devoted to prayer and what it means, your summation does not do justice to how Christians view this very complex and difficult point of their doctrine. Originally Posted by elliotfc 4. The Lord's Prayer, given to us by Jesus, contains all that anyone ought to need to know about the reality of prayer, for the Christian. It is directed to the Father. It is about the Father. It is not about us. It recognizes the relationship, and keeps our reality in perspective. His will be done, not ours. In the kind of prayer I often see ruminated about on this forum, we wonder why OUR WILL is not done when we pray. That is out of order. When we pray, we ask that God's will be done. Do we ask for things? Of course. Food, forgiveness, strength, all that stuff, culminating in deliverance from evil. Yet those requests are within the framework of God's will. Jesus prayed before the crucifixion, and God's will was done. That's prayer. The Lord's Prayer has also been a matter of great debate and again your summary does not do it justice, indeed we need to always start with which version and even which translation before we start to discuss it. An interesting site that may provide you with a good starting point to explore the fascinating history of the Lord's prayer and some of the debates about what it actually means can be found at this site: http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm Originally Posted by elliotfc Pardon me for saying so...but I think this is all basic Christianity and I'm surprised that individuals think they've had some major epiphany by realizing that God doesn't heal amputees or that people would waste time conducting scientific studies on prayer efficacy. When we pray, we are embracing our weakness, and we are not exerting any power over God at all. Christ told us not to put him to the test, and expecting prayer to "work" is doing just that. -Elliot With all due respect it would appear from this post that you have a superficial understanding of Christian doctrine and the history of Christian theological debate.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

12th July 2006, 06:20 AM	#3
Genesius Apathetic Agnostic Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 1,534	Originally Posted by elliotfc Pardon me for saying so...but I think this is all basic Christianity and I'm surprised that individuals think they've had some major epiphany by realizing that God doesn't heal amputees or that people would waste time conducting scientific studies on prayer efficacy. When we pray, we are embracing our weakness, and we are not exerting any power over God at all. Christ told us not to put him to the test, and expecting prayer to "work" is doing just that. -Elliot Jesus also said: Quote: And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. John 14:13-14 Pretty straightforward - you ask for it in Jesus' name, and you got it. A promise Jesus has broken every single day for over 2000 years.
	__________________ "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the same extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." - H. L. Mencken "Why believe in things that make it tough on you?" - Devo, "Love Without Anger" GoogleBomb Sylvia Browne now! www.StopSylvia.com

12th July 2006, 06:35 AM	#4
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Originally Posted by elliotfc 1. If God did answer prayer, the mind absolutely boggles. If I prayed that the most beautiful woman in the world would fall in love with me, and 180982 other guys prayed the same thing, then what? Try not to be the guy who winds up with sloppy one hundred eighty thousand nine hundred eighty thirds.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

12th July 2006, 06:44 AM	#5
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772	Originally Posted by Darat Yet the Bible tells us that God will answer prayers. Yes, but you can answer a question in many, many, many ways. I often give vauge answers to my students...for a very particular reason. What I'm saying is that God doesn't answer prayers in the same way that someone would answer 8 if you ask what's 2 times 4. Quote: Not really - he's all knowing and all powerful, must Christians would not accept the limits you are putting on God's powers. I disagree with you on this point, and short of polling data that's that. Quote: A lot of theological study has been devoted to prayer and what it means, your summation does not do justice to how Christians view this very complex and difficult point of their doctrine. I think that many theologians probably go through contortions that lay Christians don't...but that's of course speculation on my part. I talk to ordinary Catholics about these things often, people who'll never visit forums or write theolgoical treatises. I pray with people often too. We understand the deal. No one is ever going to stand up one day and say "wait a second...what if God doesn't heal this person's cancer...then what!?!?!?" During the Catholic Mass petitions, specific ones, are always offered, and we perfectly understand that it is God's will, and not our will, that will govern the "results" of our prayer. The exercise of prayer in and of itself, however, is the focus of the Prayers of the Faithful, and not the result. I hate to call this elementary, but this is century upon century, probably literally billions of Catholic masses. Quote: The Lord's Prayer has also been a matter of great debate and again your summary does not do it justice, indeed we need to always start with which version and even which translation before we start to discuss it. Thanks for the weblink, forgive me for saying this...but those translations are themselves loaded, don't you think? Without question the website is anti-Church. Of course though...the gospels were written in Greek. At the moment I don't know where the Aramaic came from...was the Aramaic deduced from the Greek? The site doesn't say. Here is something more direct. Which is better? I dunno. http://www.barefootsworld.net/lordpray.html Quote: With all due respect it would appear from this post that you have a superficial understanding of Christian doctrine and the history of Christian theological debate. Thanks Darat! Have a nice one! -Elliot
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772

12th July 2006, 06:52 AM	#6
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772	Originally Posted by Genesius Jesus also said: John 14:13-14 Pretty straightforward - you ask for it in Jesus' name, and you got it. A promise Jesus has broken every single day for over 2000 years. When you pray in his name. When you pray, with expectations that anything you want be done, you are praying in your name, that your will be done. When you pray in the name of Jesus, you pray that his will be done, and not yours. When we pray that a loved one be healed of cancer, do we pray that so that the Father may be glorified in the Son, or, do we pray that so we could have a loved one healed so we can continue to live with that person, or, so that person could continue to live? If Jesus said, ask me anything, and I'll do it!, not only would I completely succumb to your point, I also reckon that Christians wouldn't pray nearly as much as they do. But there are additions like "in my name", and "that the Father be glorified in the Son" that, again, pllace the focus on God and not on ourselves. -Elliot
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772

12th July 2006, 06:54 AM	#7
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772	One more thing Darat if you'd care to address...how would God handle situation 1 that I offered, in your opinion? Of course this assumes that God exists. -Elliot
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772

12th July 2006, 06:57 AM	#8
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Originally Posted by elliotfc ...snip.. I disagree with you on this point, and short of polling data that's that. ...snip... It is part of the Roman Catholic faith and is therefore the belief of the vast majority of Christians. Originally Posted by elliotfc I think that many theologians probably go through contortions that lay Christians don't...but that's of course speculation on my part. I talk to ordinary Catholics about these things often, people who'll never visit forums or write theolgoical treatises. I pray with people often too. We understand the deal. No one is ever going to stand up one day and say "wait a second...what if God doesn't heal this person's cancer...then what!?!?!?" Therefore as I said your understanding is superficial I would suggest you visit the Vatican's website and start to read what the Pope and others have to say about prayer. I would hope you would find it enlightening. (I also include another site of links below.) Originally Posted by elliotfc During the Catholic Mass petitions, specific ones, are always offered, and we perfectly understand that it is God's will, and not our will, that will govern the "results" of our prayer. The exercise of prayer in and of itself, however, is the focus of the Prayers of the Faithful, and not the result. I hate to call this elementary, but this is century upon century, probably literally billions of Catholic masses. I presume you mean Roman Catholic? A good starting point that has links to many of the "classical" Roman Catholic treaties etc. on prayer is here: http://landru.i-link-2.net/shnyves/prayer.html#Texts Originally Posted by elliotfc Thanks for the weblink, forgive me for saying this...but those translations are themselves loaded, don't you think? Without question the website is anti-Church. Of course though...the gospels were written in Greek. At the moment I don't know where the Aramaic came from...was the Aramaic deduced from the Greek? The site doesn't say. Which translations? The different ones in the KJ Bible, the different ones used by the Protestant and Roman Catholic Churches? Originally Posted by elliotfc Here is something more direct. Which is better? I dunno. http://www.barefootsworld.net/lordpray.html ...snip... I don't know either - which was rather the point of my first reply.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008 Last edited by Darat; 12th July 2006 at 07:03 AM. Reason: To add a superficial

12th July 2006, 07:01 AM	#9
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Originally Posted by elliotfc One more thing Darat if you'd care to address...how would God handle situation 1 that I offered, in your opinion? Of course this assumes that God exists. -Elliot I have no idea, and doesn't the Bible makes it very clear that God is not subject to human limitations, and that humans can never understand God?
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

12th July 2006, 07:02 AM	#10
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	Originally Posted by elliotfc Yes, but you can answer a question in many, many, many ways. Indeed.

12th July 2006, 07:02 AM	#11
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772	Originally Posted by Darat It is part of the Roman Catholic faith and is therefore the belief of the vast majority of Christians. Darat, being all-knowing and all-powerful doesn't mean that you have to do anything and everything that anybody asks you to do. -Elliot
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772

12th July 2006, 07:05 AM	#12
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772	Originally Posted by Darat I have no idea, and doesn't the Bible makes it very clear that God is not subject to human limitations, and that humans can never understand God? OK, so then it is possible for God to allow me to live forever and die right now? God may have no limitations. What about us? Do any limitations restrict me from living forever and dying right now? I think you're suggesting that a Christian ought never to use reason, logic, or good sense because God is not subject to human limitations. If so, it's pointless for me to continue to discuss anything in this forum, don't you think? -Elliot
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772

12th July 2006, 07:09 AM	#13
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	"New, improved, omniscient-omnipotent-omnibenevolent GOD answers prayers!!! Not even the fall of the sparrow escapes his notice, so you can be sure he'll listen to you!" (some restrictions may apply) Grand absolutes lose their strength when hedged about with all these disclaimers and exceptions and -- let's be honest here -- excuses. If God is such a grand absolute why does he depend on escape clauses and weasel words to get him out of all those tight spots?

12th July 2006, 07:16 AM	#14
Anti_Hypeman Death Dealing Doom Machine Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,011	Originally Posted by elliotfc BUT CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE THIS EXPECTATION IN PRAYER How do you explain the lines outside Benny Hinns crusades? Why do the two christian channels I get concentrate on promising healings 24/7? Why does Pat Robertson constantly jawbone about the "law of reciprocity", if you give to Jesus he WILL give it back with interest. Why do they constantly run sotries about people who gave to the 700 club and mysteriously got healed or found a large check in the mail? Why dont mainstream chrisitans condem him if its not true? My city is full of small time faith healers and "healing rooms". Are the people who run these events or participate in them christian? I suppose the mega rich christian groups are supported by just a tiny minority? Or are they all fake christians doomed to hell?

12th July 2006, 07:16 AM	#15
Lothian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: https://twitter.com/CV4UK Posts: 10,373	Originally Posted by elliotfc Darat, being all-knowing and all-powerful doesn't mean that you have to do anything and everything that anybody asks you to do. -Elliot Being all-knowing and all-powerful, Darat knows that. Oh......

12th July 2006, 07:20 AM	#16
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Originally Posted by elliotfc OK, so then it is possible for God to allow me to live forever and die right now? If you believe in the Roman Catholic version of Christianity then God is capable of everything. Originally Posted by elliotfc God may have no limitations. What about us? Do any limitations restrict me from living forever and dying right now? The answer is the same if you believe in an omnipotent God then he is not limited in any way (else he would not be omnipotent). I am of course arguing this in a very superficial manner since the limitations or not of God's power is another subject that many Chrsitians have argued over for many centuries. Some do conclude as you seem to do that there are some things God cannot do, whilst others conclude that God can do anything. Originally Posted by elliotfc I think you're suggesting that a Christian ought never to use reason, logic, or good sense because God is not subject to human limitations. If so, it's pointless for me to continue to discuss anything in this forum, don't you think? -Elliot That is up to you and what you believe. However your OP seemed to be criticising Members for not understanding Christianity yet in doing so seemed to demonstrate that you were quite unaware of the depth of Christian theology and the extent of the on going debate about aspects of Christian faith such as prayer.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

12th July 2006, 07:50 AM	#17
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310	Originally Posted by Darat Originally Posted by elliotfc OK, so then it is possible for God to allow me to live forever and die right now? If you believe in the Roman Catholic version of Christianity then God is capable of everything. Everything that is logically possible, but not the logically impossible as would be the case of allowing someone to live forever yet die at the same time. According to Wikipedia: Quote: Mainstream Catholic theology eventually reconciled itself to the Greek and Arabic material the Reconquista made available, thanks in large part to Thomas Aquinas, whose Summa Theologica affirmed the notion that God could not defy logic. -Bri
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310

12th July 2006, 07:55 AM	#18
Anacoluthon64 Defollyant Iconoclast Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sceptylvania Posts: 1,026	Originally Posted by Meffy Indeed. Though garbed in the enlivening raiments of satire, that story, if its background be even vaguely factual, remains a tearing heartbreaker. Believer or no. Dewy-eyed 'Luthon64
	__________________ "The cynics were watchdogs terrifying malefactors. They tried to expose falseness and conceit. That's why their name is still spoken with a snarl." — Petr Skrabanek, In Defence of Destructive Criticism.

12th July 2006, 07:58 AM	#19
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,374	Originally Posted by elliotfc 3. When we pray, we are rejecting power, not embracing it. Prayer is different from, say, a superstition like the Ghost Dance. Various Indian groups performed the Ghost Dance because they believed in would exert power and control over God, who would then give benefits to them and resurrect their dead warriors and all that. Press the button, and X happens. BUT CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE THIS EXPECTATION IN PRAYER. Or, rather, they ought not to have that expectation. Christians reject superstition, the belief that God can be controlled if I just do A, B, and C. When we pray, we ask, we question, we praise, we think, we talk, all that. But it is not result orientated! I do not believe that most Christians feel this way about prayer. Listen to a survivor of a scary situation and if he is a Christian, it is likely he will say that he was saved because he prayed. The clear statement is that if he had not prayed, he would not have been saved. And indeed, what is the point of prayer if it is nothing more than to give God credit? If it's all God's doing, then He knows it. Do you really think God requires praise in order to do what he does? No, I believe that people pray to God with at least some expectations, even if that expectation is only that He will guide them. And a lot of times, they have much greater expectations. My father-in-law who is receiving hospice care in our home, recieves two or three cards a day called "Prayergrams" from a Baptist church where his niece worships. These cards are specifically labeled "Intercessory Prayer". Now I ask you, what could an intercessory prayer be other than a request/hope/wish for God to intercede? Sure, they will take "no" as an answer, as the saying goes, but it is quite clear that they are asking. I think, Elliot, that you are probably one of the only people who prays to God with absolutely no expectations of evidence that your prayer was heard.

12th July 2006, 08:02 AM	#20
grayman Happy-go-lucky Heretic Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Casa del Whacko Posts: 6,142	Why you'll never be able to logically debate this issue with a devout believer... If God answers my prayers: It's a miracle. If God doesn't answer my prayers: It's God's will.

12th July 2006, 08:03 AM	#21
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Originally Posted by Bri Everything that is logically possible, but not the logically impossible as would be the case of allowing someone to live forever yet die at the same time. According to Wikipedia: -Bri That is a well balanced article, thanks. Note that it says "mainstream", this is one of those arguments that as far as I know has never been subject to a "final" decision as far as the Roman Catholic Church is concerned. Interestingly one way of interpreting Catholic Doctrine is that the question posed "allowing someone to live forever yet die at the same time" could be answered by Mary's Ascension to heaven? (I've never thought of this before so feel free to rain on my parade!)
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

12th July 2006, 08:13 AM	#22
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310	Originally Posted by Darat Note that it says "mainstream", this is one of those arguments that as far as I know has never been subject to a "final" decision as far as the Roman Catholic Church is concerned. I don't know. Perhaps ceo_esq will grace us with his presence and provide some insight. Quote: Interestingly one way of interpreting Catholic Doctrine is that the question posed "allowing someone to live forever yet die at the same time" could be answered by Mary's Ascension to heaven? (I've never thought of this before so feel free to rain on my parade!) Possibly, but that would allow the situation to be logically possible. I believe elliotfc was referring to God's ability to do the logically impossible. -Bri
Bri Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,310	Last edited by Bri; 12th July 2006 at 08:16 AM.

12th July 2006, 08:19 AM	#23
Anti_Hypeman Death Dealing Doom Machine Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,011	When the miners were thought to be saved it was only by gods grace. When all but one turned out to be dead god gets none of the blame. Why the double standard?

12th July 2006, 08:24 AM	#24
JamesDillon Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Berkeley, CA Posts: 2,631	Originally Posted by Anti_Hypeman When the miners were thought to be saved it was only by gods grace. When all but one turned out to be dead god gets none of the blame. Why the double standard? I think Grayman has it right. Good thing happens: It's a miracle, and proof of God's existence. Bad thing happens: It's God's will. It's the world's longest-running confirmation bias.
	__________________ "To read the bible without horror, we must undo every thing that is tender, sympathising, and benevolent in the heart of man." --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

12th July 2006, 09:38 AM	#25
Anti_Hypeman Death Dealing Doom Machine Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,011	Originally Posted by JamesDillon I think Grayman has it right. Good thing happens: It's a miracle, and proof of God's existence. Bad thing happens: It's God's will. It's the world's longest-running confirmation bias. Its like a coach claiming to be undefeated because he does not count the losses.

12th July 2006, 09:44 AM	#26
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,433	Originally Posted by elliotfc Yes, but you can answer a question in many, many, many ways. How do you distinguish that from not answering a question? Prayer and "God's blessings" was a major reason I became a deist and ultimately an atheist. All of the evidence pointed to the incontrovertible fact that either God didn't answer prayers or his answers were indistinguishable from God not answering prayers. I haven't prayed in more than a decade and I could not honestly tell you how my life is demonstrably different. If my life had been different I would have gone back to praying. For the longest time after I left the church and stopped praying much of me wanted to believe, to go to church and to pray.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

12th July 2006, 09:54 AM	#27
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772	Originally Posted by Meffy "New, improved, omniscient-omnipotent-omnibenevolent GOD answers prayers!!! Not even the fall of the sparrow escapes his notice, so you can be sure he'll listen to you!" (some restrictions may apply) Grand absolutes lose their strength when hedged about with all these disclaimers and exceptions and -- let's be honest here -- excuses. If God is such a grand absolute why does he depend on escape clauses and weasel words to get him out of all those tight spots? What tight spots? Why should God do whatever we tell him to do? -Elliot
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772

12th July 2006, 09:57 AM	#28
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	Originally Posted by Anacoluthon64 Though garbed in the enlivening raiments of satire, that story, if its background be even vaguely factual, remains a tearing heartbreaker. Believer or no. Doesn't help to know that tens or hundreds of thousands of real-life stories are very much like the satirical one in the Onion. :-( When Winston Churchill was told that England's neck would be wrung like a chicken's (by a little guy with a funny mustache) he responded "Some chicken! Some neck!" When considering things like so-called "answers to prayer" I have to think "Some answer! Some omnibenevolence!" [edited for clearer wording]
	Last edited by Meffy; 12th July 2006 at 10:02 AM.

12th July 2006, 09:58 AM	#29
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	Originally Posted by elliotfc What tight spots? Why should God do whatever we tell him to do? Because he said he would, and he's infallible. You've had the quotations of his perfect and inviolable word earlier in the threads. Why then does he have to resort to loopholes to get out of his own promise? Seems awfully cheap to me. [edit] What tight spots? The situations in which according to god's promise he would fulfill prayers but in which he didn't. You hardly have to dig to find such situations.
	Last edited by Meffy; 12th July 2006 at 10:11 AM.

12th July 2006, 09:59 AM	#30
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772	Originally Posted by Anti_Hypeman How do you explain the lines outside Benny Hinns crusades? You don't have to see Benny Hinn to pray. If you want to pray, pray. If you want to see Benny Hill, I mean Hinn, go see Benny Hinn. I don't know why people want to go to see Benny Hinn. I would ask them why don't they just go to church and pray. Quote: Why do the two christian channels I get concentrate on promising healings 24/7? They are appealing to a select number of people. How many people watch those channels by the way? Quote: Why does Pat Robertson constantly jawbone about the "law of reciprocity", if you give to Jesus he WILL give it back with interest. Is he only talking about this life, or the next life as well? Quote: Why do they constantly run sotries about people who gave to the 700 club and mysteriously got healed or found a large check in the mail? I didn't say that prayers never get answered. If they do get answered, it is because it is God's will, and not ours. Quote: Why dont mainstream chrisitans condem him if its not true? Pat Robertson does get bashed my mainstream Christians. Quote: My city is full of small time faith healers and "healing rooms". Are the people who run these events or participate in them christian? Sure, or, probably. Quote: I suppose the mega rich christian groups are supported by just a tiny minority? Or are they all fake christians doomed to hell? If you're talking about the mega churches that seat thousands, I submit that such people believe that God answers prayers in his own way, and not in our way. I don't know who is doomed to hell. -Elliot
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772

12th July 2006, 10:04 AM	#31
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	How is this not a list of loopholes, excuses, escapes, evasions, and dodges...?

12th July 2006, 10:07 AM	#32
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,433	Originally Posted by elliotfc What tight spots? Why should God do whatever we tell him to do? -Elliot ??? I'm confused. Quote: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? --Luke 11:10 - 12 What is meant by ask and ye shall receive? Receive what? Look closely at verse 11. If the father asks for his dying child to be spared and the child dies how is that consistent with the scripture?
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

12th July 2006, 10:11 AM	#33
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772	Originally Posted by Darat If you believe in the Roman Catholic version of Christianity then God is capable of everything. Darat, perhaps we can both agree to yield to newadvent.org on this one: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm I'll read this over lunch, then return to this question. Quote: The answer is the same if you believe in an omnipotent God then he is not limited in any way (else he would not be omnipotent). Christians believe that we can grasp God's nature in several ways...the Bible of course...the person of Jesus...and using our intellects as well. I don't know how a rationalist Christian like Pascal would consider my point. The question to me is not limiting God's power. We are not God's power. We are created with limitations. Now, God could transform me into something that could do some extraordinary things, or all of us into doing some extraordinary things. In the state we are in, God answering all of our prayers is out of order. What if we prayed for God to stop being God, and to make one of us God instead? What if we prayed for God to destroy all of the universe including himself? It's not a question of omnipotence as much as why God should jump through our hoops. Why should God do something just because we tell him to do it? Quote: I am of course arguing this in a very superficial manner since the limitations or not of God's power is another subject that many Chrsitians have argued over for many centuries. Some do conclude as you seem to do that there are some things God cannot do, whilst others conclude that God can do anything. If we may drop the omnipotent thing for just a bit...given our understanding of the nature of God, why should God answer every prayer, particularly the ones that just boggle the mind, the ones that would seem to create a most chaotic and untenable existence? Quote: That is up to you and what you believe. However your OP seemed to be criticising Members for not understanding Christianity yet in doing so seemed to demonstrate that you were quite unaware of the depth of Christian theology and the extent of the on going debate about aspects of Christian faith such as prayer. I am criticizing members for not following through with the "why doesn't God answer prayer" bit as far as it can go. -Elliot
elliotfc Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,772

12th July 2006, 10:13 AM	#34
Anti_Hypeman Death Dealing Doom Machine Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,011	I went to a live miracle crusade and saw the anguished looks on the faces of the sick that didnt get heald. They expected miracles. They were outright promised miracles if they showed faith and "gave god his cake first". Meaning that if you give god everything and trust him to take care of you he will. Go ahead and drop the rent money in the bucket because you cant outgive Jesus. You can read the full account here http://www.lfplc.net/crusade.htm and downlaod the evidence since I recorded the event. Late night on CBN the local loon churches run shows. They all promise miracles for money and the people that pay n pray expect personal divine healng. The fact that Benny Hinn is still standing is strong proof against the biblical god.

12th July 2006, 10:14 AM	#35
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,433	Originally Posted by elliotfc I am criticizing members for not following through with the "why doesn't God answer prayer" bit as far as it can go. -Elliot I would just like to know how one would distinguish your version of God answering prayers with God not answering prayers at all? It's a sincere question and I think it begs an answer.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith