Mineta's testimony not part of 9/11 report

Mutton-Head · 20th July 2006, 07:08 PM

Why was Norman Mineta's testimony not part of 9/11 commission report? His account of the events that occurred in the PEOC completely differ with the official report. He claims Cheney was there 40 minutes before the report does. He claims they were watching flight 77 head for the Pentagon for at least 15 minutes. The report claims they didn't know where 77 was until a minute or two before it crashed.

Gravy · 20th July 2006, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

Why was Norman Mineta's testimony not part of 9/11 commission report? His account of the events that occurred in the PEOC completely differ with the official report. He claims Cheney was there 40 minutes before the report does. He claims they were watching flight 77 head for the Pentagon for at least 15 minutes. The report claims they didn't know where 77 was until a minute or two before it crashed.

Mutton-Head! You're back!
FAA notification to the military about flight 77's position was 13 minutes before it struck the Pentagon. If Mineta knew it was headed for the Pentagon, he should apply for Randi's million-dollar challenge.

Or he should be arrested!

Money-Lover · 20th July 2006, 07:21 PM

Mineta says that an officer was saying "the plane is 50 miles out... The plane is 30 miles out..." etc. Cheney and the others in the PEOC are tracking the plane, and know that it is headed for the Pentagon.

Gravy · 20th July 2006, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by Money-Lover

Cheney and the others in the PEOC are tracking the plane, and know that it is headed for the Pentagon.

Your evidence?
Edit: Welcome, Money-Lover!
Your evidence?

Mutton-Head · 20th July 2006, 07:33 PM

In Mineta's testimony to Lee Hamilton, he claims that at around 9:26, a young man in the PEOC is informing Cheney about a plane's approach. The young man gives Cheney updates every 10 miles. Have you seen this video?

Gravy · 20th July 2006, 07:36 PM

What's your point?

Mutton-Head · 20th July 2006, 07:40 PM

My point is, if they are tracking the plane, for at least 15 minutes by Mineta's account, why is no warning given to the Pentagon?

Gravy · 20th July 2006, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

My point is, if they are tracking the plane, for at least 15 minutes by Mineta's account, why is no warning given to the Pentagon?

According to your timing it would be 12 minutes.
Mutton-Head, are you suggesting that someone knew the plane was headed for the Pentagon?

Mutton-Head · 20th July 2006, 07:48 PM

Mineta arrives at 9:20. Five minutes later, Cheney is informed that "the plane is 50 miles out.." At 9:36, the plane hits the Pentagon. From the time Mineta enters the PEOC to the time the Pentagon is hit, is about 15 minutes. Since Mineta arrives after Cheney is made aware that a plane is indeed headed towards the Pentagon, or the White house, we can infer that they have been watching the plane for at least 15 minutes.

Gravy · 20th July 2006, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

Mineta arrives at 9:20. Five minutes later, Cheney is informed that "the plane is 50 miles out.." At 9:36, the plane hits the Pentagon. From the time Mineta enters the PEOC to the time the Pentagon is hit, is about 15 minutes. Since Mineta arrives after Cheney is made aware that a plane is indeed headed towards the Pentagon, or the White house, we can infer that they have been watching the plane for at least 15 minutes.

As I said, the FAA notified the military of flight 77's heading 13 minutes before it hit the Pentagon at 9:38. Did someone say the plane was headed toward the Pentagon or the White House? How about the Capitol Building? The State Department? CIA HQ in Virginia? The NRO building? None of these buildings were evacuated. Some, like the Pentagon, were designed to be quite safe.

gumboot · 20th July 2006, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

Why was Norman Mineta's testimony not part of 9/11 commission report? His account of the events that occurred in the PEOC completely differ with the official report. He claims Cheney was there 40 minutes before the report does. He claims they were watching flight 77 head for the Pentagon for at least 15 minutes. The report claims they didn't know where 77 was until a minute or two before it crashed.

I can adress some of this...

Firstly, I'm not surprised at all that people have conflicting accounts of what happened and what time they were where. Such is the way of things.

Secondly, AA77... and the "50 miles out, 30 miles out, does the order still stand?" Fiasco...

A few facts (according to the official story)

1) The "standing order" for immediate threats was for fighters to intercept and shoot down the said threat. Confirmation was only required for non-immediate threats. It is therefore logical to assume the "does the order still stand?" question was a staff member asking if the standing order should be applied to a civilian aircraft full of American citizens. No doubt this staff member was relaying the question from others - most likely the pilots themselves. Given that targetting civilians is a war crime, I can understand why the pilots kept asking...

2) According to official reports AA77 was first located at 0932 by Dulles terminal. An Air National Guard C-130 began trailing the aircraft at this point. Until this point the FAA had assumed AA77 had crashed, and had requested military assistance in a search and rescue operation.

2) AA77 hit the pentagon at 0938 - six minutes after being identified.

3) At typical cruising speed (mach 0.8 or 950 km/h) a Boeing 757 would cover about 60 miles in this six minute period.

4) This collaborates with the reports that only count down from 50 miles out.

Lastly, Mineta himself has repeatedly admitted most of his opinions are based purely on speculation. He didn't know what order was being referred to. He didn't know which aircraft was being referred to. He made assumptions about all this.

Quote:

Mineta responds to a condescending greeting by Commissioner Roemer by giving a timeline for when he arrived in the PEOC (9:20), and an estimate of when the conversation between the young man and the vice president occurred (9:25-26). Roemer paints a picture of chaos and conflicting decision making between the functioning of the Situation Room and the PEOC and proposes a confused scenario of how a shoot down order might have transpired, to which Mineta replies:

Mineta: "That would be speculation on my part as to what was happening on that day."

Mineta claims that the conversation took place between 0925-26 hrs, and that this conversation began with "the plane is 50 miles out".

I would like Mineta's explanation for how an aircraft travelling at nearly 10 miles a minute can be a mere 50 miles from its target a full 12 minutes before impact. Especially given Mineta's account in other interviews:

Quote:

Inside, Mineta was briefed on the situation and escorted down to the presidential emergency operations center, also known as PEOC, a command bunker beneath the White House. There, with Vice President Dick Cheney, they established direct contact with the Federal Aviation Administration and attempted to assess the situation. In minutes, a report came in about a plane 50 miles away, headed low and fast along the river toward Washington, D.C.

One might surmise from this that the aircraft was travelling FASTER than cruising speed, which would put it even FURTHER than 60 miles out at the moment an Air National Guard C-130 began tracking it (which was at 0932hrs).

The most logical explanation for all this is both Cheney and Mineta got their times completely wrong. Mineta did not arrive at 0900, he arrived "minutes" before 0932. And Cheney did not arrive at 0940. He arrived some time before Mineta.

For reference, if Mineta's first timeline is correct, the 757 averaged about 250 mph for the final 50 miles of approach. 250mph is absolute minimum speed for a 757 without deploying full flaps as on approach. Pretty impressive for the hijacker to maintain a 757 at dead on stall speed for a full 12 minutes... yet kind of odd if he wanted to slam into the Pentagon for maximum damage.

-Andrew

ETA: "C-130"

Gravy · 20th July 2006, 08:05 PM

You're very nice to these people, gumboot. I'm trying to get them to do their homework.

Mutton-Head · 20th July 2006, 08:11 PM

I understand your time analysis Gumboot. You're right, the times given by Mineta are an approximation. But my question still stands as to why the whole Mineta testimony is ignored in the official report. Because the official report claims that Cheney arrived at PEOC at 9:58, twenty minutes after 77 hit the Pentagon. According to the official report, The conversation that Mineta described couldn't have even taken place.

Gravy · 20th July 2006, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

I understand your time analysis Gumboot. You're right, the times given by Mineta are an approximation. But my question still stands as to why the whole Mineta testimony is ignored in the official report. Because the official report claims that Cheney arrived at PEOC at 9:58, twenty minutes after 77 hit the Pentagon. According to the official report, The conversation that Mineta described couldn't have even taken place.

And what's your best guess about that discrepancy?

Metullus · 20th July 2006, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

Mineta arrives at 9:20. Five minutes later, Cheney is informed that "the plane is 50 miles out.." At 9:36, the plane hits the Pentagon. From the time Mineta enters the PEOC to the time the Pentagon is hit, is about 15 minutes. Since Mineta arrives after Cheney is made aware that a plane is indeed headed towards the Pentagon, or the White house, we can infer that they have been watching the plane for at least 15 minutes.

I understand that the plane was traveling at something above 450kts when it hit the Pentagon.

Lets say that the plane was traveling at 400mph (which is something less than 400kts). That would mean that when the plane was 50 miles out it was approximately 7.5 minutes from impact, not 15 minutes as you suggest.

In order for your scenerio to be the case the plane would have to have been traveling no faster than 200mph, a suggestion I have never seen.

Am I missing something?

ETA - Boy am I behind the times....

Mutton-Head · 20th July 2006, 08:17 PM

Quote:

And what's your best guess about that discrepancy?

I'm concerned about the fact that what Mineta testified to was ignored.

ARubberChickenWithAPulley · 20th July 2006, 08:30 PM

Quote:

I understand your time analysis Gumboot. You're right, the times given by Mineta are an approximation. But my question still stands as to why the whole Mineta testimony is ignored in the official report. Because the official report claims that Cheney arrived at PEOC at 9:58, twenty minutes after 77 hit the Pentagon. According to the official report, The conversation that Mineta described couldn't have even taken place.

The report says that "the Vice President entered the underground tunnel leading to the shelter at 9:37. Once inside, Vice President Cheney and the agents paused in an area of the tunnel that had a secure phone, a bench, and television." The report later states that Cheney arrived in the shelter conference room at 9:58. It seems likely, therefore, that Cheney was getting his updates on the status of the plane while he was in the tunnel and that that was the location that Mineta was referring to.

Mutton-Head · 20th July 2006, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

1) The "standing order" for immediate threats was for fighters to intercept and shoot down the said threat. Confirmation was only required for non-immediate threats.

Where do you get this information? Intercept and shoot-down are two different things. Intercept means simply to fly your fighter next to the plane in question and make contact.

Woody- · 20th July 2006, 08:34 PM

There is a big difference between ignoring his testimony and deciding to leave it out since it didnt fit with other witnesses testimony about the time line.

ie if 25 people give testimony that agree with how the events of that day occurred and only one persons testimony is different then its most likely that the one person is in error.

Gravy · 20th July 2006, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

I'm concerned about the fact that what Mineta testified to was ignored.

Do you mean the timing of the events he recalled, or the events themselves?

Meanwhile, in the Pentagon...

Quote:

Inside the NMCC, the deputy director for operations called for an all-purpose "significant event" conference. It began at 9:29, with a brief recap: two aircraft had struck the World Trade Center, there was a confirmed hijacking of American 11, and Otis fighters had been scrambled. The FAA was asked to provide an update, but teh line was silent because the FAA had not been added to the call. A minute later, the deputy director stated that it had just been confirmed that American 11 was still airborne and heading toward D.C. He directed the transition to an air threat conference call. NORAD confirmed that American 11 was airborne and heading toward Washington, relaying the erroneous FAA information already mentioned. The call then ended, at about 9:34.

It resumed at 9:37 as and air threat conference call, which lasted more than eight hours.

9/11 Commission Report, page 37

Mutton-Head · 20th July 2006, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by ARubberChickenWithAPulley

The report says that "the Vice President entered the underground tunnel leading to the shelter at 9:37. Once inside, Vice President Cheney and the agents paused in an area of the tunnel that had a secure phone, a bench, and television." The report later states that Cheney arrived in the shelter conference room at 9:58. It seems likely, therefore, that Cheney was getting his updates on the status of the plane while he was in the tunnel and that that was the location that Mineta was referring to.

Yes, and this completely contradicts Mineta's testimony. He arrived around 9:20. Cheney was already there. The conversation about the plane didn't start until about five minutes after Mineta arrived. This is not a time discrepency. According to the official 9/11 report, this event that Mineta described did not even take place.

Gravy · 20th July 2006, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

Where do you get this information? Intercept and shoot-down are two different things. Intercept means simply to fly your fighter next to the plane in question and make contact.

http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjc...i/3610_01a.pdf

gumboot · 20th July 2006, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

I understand your time analysis Gumboot. You're right, the times given by Mineta are an approximation. But my question still stands as to why the whole Mineta testimony is ignored in the official report. Because the official report claims that Cheney arrived at PEOC at 9:58, twenty minutes after 77 hit the Pentagon. According to the official report, The conversation that Mineta described couldn't have even taken place.

Well I have a question...

Why does it matter?

Maybe his testimony really was lost due to a "snafu". Maybe whoever provided Cheney's times was completely wrong. Cheney himself has reported on National Television that he was in the bunker when AA77 hit the Pentagon, so clearly HE doesn't think he arrived there at 0958.

The common logic by CTers is that producing enough errors in the details will produce an overall error in the big picture. But if those errors are irrelevant, you can combine as many as you want. It won't mean a thing.

-Andrew

Gravy · 20th July 2006, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

Yes, and this completely contradicts Mineta's testimony. He arrived around 9:20. Cheney was already there. The conversation about the plane didn't start until about five minutes after Mineta arrived. This is not a time discrepency. According to the official 9/11 report, this event that Mineta described did not even take place.

Read the footnotes about how the timing of Cheney's movements and the activities in the PEOC were cross-referenced.

Mutton-Head · 20th July 2006, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

Well I have a question...

Why does it matter?

Maybe his testimony really was lost due to a "snafu". Maybe whoever provided Cheney's times was completely wrong. Cheney himself has reported on National Television that he was in the bunker when AA77 hit the Pentagon, so clearly HE doesn't think he arrived there at 0958.

The common logic by CTers is that producing enough errors in the details will produce an overall error in the big picture. But if those errors are irrelevant, you can combine as many as you want. It won't mean a thing.

-Andrew

Sorry, but I'm an engineer by trade, and we know the importance of being accurate.

Quote:

Maybe his testimony really was lost due to a "snafu".

Hahahahaha... That's funny. I like all of your maybes. Oh well, it's only a massive criminal investigation. We're only trying to find out how 19 hijackers brought the American military to its knees. So what if we loose a few pieces of testimony, or can't keep track of when events occured.

Mutton-Head · 20th July 2006, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjc...i/3610_01a.pdf

Thanks for the document. But intercept and shoot-down are still two different things. Cheney himself tried to insinuate that these two things were synonomous. They are not.

Gravy · 20th July 2006, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

Thanks for the document. But intercept and shoot-down are still two different things. Cheney himself tried to insinuate that these two things were synonomous. They are not.

Read it again.

ARubberChickenWithAPulley · 20th July 2006, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Hahahahaha... That's funny. I like all of your maybes. Oh well, it's only a massive criminal investigation. We're only trying to find out how 19 hijackers brought the American military to its knees. So what if we loose a few pieces of testimony, or can't keep track of when events occured.

I am not sure in what way Mineta's testimony can be considered "lost." I pulled it up very quickly after a search on Google, from the 911 Commission's official website. The Commission used the notes taken by Cheney's staff, several official logs from the various place Cheney was at, phone records, etc. to attempt to reconstruct his timeline. They prioritized the logs, whose entire purpose is to document exact times and events, over someone trying to recall exact times from memory. There is nothing particularly odd about that.

Gravy · 20th July 2006, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

Sorry, but I'm an engineer by trade, and we know the importance of being accurate.

Allow me to refresh everyone's memory about this post and those that followed. http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=105

gumboot · 20th July 2006, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

Sorry, but I'm an engineer by trade, and we know the importance of being accurate.

The 9/11 Commission Report was an overview and summary of events. The major detailed investigations in various aspects of the event were still ongoing at the time. Anyone who thinks the commission report is a precise 100% accurate account of EXACTLY what happened is stupid.

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

Hahahahaha... That's funny. I like all of your maybes. Oh well, it's only a massive criminal investigation. We're only trying to find out how 19 hijackers brought the American military to its knees. So what if we loose a few pieces of testimony, or can't keep track of when events occured.

What nonsense. The 9/11 Commission Report was not a criminal investigation. The Criminal Investigation is being conducted by the FBI, and as far as I am aware it is still ongoing.

-Andrew

Tailgater · 20th July 2006, 09:08 PM

Don't forget to figure in all the smoke and bathroom breaks of everyone involved.

Tailgater · 20th July 2006, 09:08 PM

Double post..

I wonder if seconds seemed like minutes and time seemed to almost stand still in such an intense moment.

What time was it during that crazy meeting months ago when so many things were going on....I'll take an educated guess.

Mutton-Head · 20th July 2006, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

Allow me to refresh everyone's memory about this post and those that followed. http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=105

Hahahaha.... touche.

ouch.

Let me clarify, I'm an electrical engineer.

Gravy · 20th July 2006, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by ARubberChickenWithAPulley

I am not sure in what way Mineta's testimony can be considered "lost." I pulled it up very quickly after a search on Google, from the 911 Commission's official website. The Commission used the notes taken by Cheney's staff, several official logs from the various place Cheney was at, phone records, etc. to attempt to reconstruct his timeline. They prioritized the logs, whose entire purpose is to document exact times and events, over someone trying to recall exact times from memory. There is nothing particularly odd about that.

ARCWAP, you must be incorrect. Mutton-Head is the accurate one here, and he certainly wouldn't say Mineta's testimony was lost when it wasn't, and he certainly wouldn't imply that one person's memory of the time of day trumps multiple cross-referenced sources if it weren't true.

Mutton-Head · 20th July 2006, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

ARCWAP, you must be incorrect. Mutton-Head is the accurate one here, and he certainly wouldn't say Mineta's testimony was lost when it wasn't, and he certainly wouldn't imply that one person's memory of the time of day trumps multiple cross-referenced sources if it weren't true.

According to the 9/11 report, the event that Mineta described: The young man keeping Cheney informed about the plane approaching, and the question "Does the order still stand?"
According to the 9/11 report, this event never took place.

Gravy · 20th July 2006, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

Hahahaha.... touche.

ouch.

Let me clarify, I'm an electrical engineer.

I'll also clarify. My reference to your former post concerned your knowing the importance of being accurate, not what kind of engineer you are.

Mutton-Head · 20th July 2006, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Gravy

I'll also clarify. My reference to your former post concerned your knowing the importance of being accurate, not what kind of engineer you are.

Yes, and that's why when I was shown my errors in physics, I owned up to them. It was also an informal discussion, not an official report.

Gravy · 20th July 2006, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

According to the 9/11 report, the event that Mineta described: The young man keeping Cheney informed about the plane approaching, and the question "Does the order still stand?"
According to the 9/11 report, this event never took place.

And you conclude that because Mineta's testimony isn't included in the report?
Edit: Ah, my bad. I'm reading that section now. Be back soon.

Mutton-Head · 20th July 2006, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by ARubberChickenWithAPulley

I am not sure in what way Mineta's testimony can be considered "lost." I pulled it up very quickly after a search on Google, from the 911 Commission's official website. The Commission used the notes taken by Cheney's staff, several official logs from the various place Cheney was at, phone records, etc. to attempt to reconstruct his timeline. They prioritized the logs, whose entire purpose is to document exact times and events, over someone trying to recall exact times from memory. There is nothing particularly odd about that.

Mineta describes an event that is missing from the report. He describes Cheney monitoring the approach of flight 77. This occurs about five minutes after Mineta arrives. The event shows that Cheney was aware that 77 was approaching, and that there was a particular order associated with that plane. It could not have been a shoot-down order, because the report says that order was not given until after 10:00.

Regnad Kcin · 20th July 2006, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mutton-Head

...Oh well, it's only a massive criminal investigation. We're only trying to find out how 19 hijackers brought the American military to its knees...

How was the American military brought "to its knees?"

Really, I would stay away from the decanter of hyperbole when at the wheel of your computer.

20th July 2006, 07:08 PM	#1
Mutton-Head Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 270	Mineta's testimony not part of 9/11 report Why was Norman Mineta's testimony not part of 9/11 commission report? His account of the events that occurred in the PEOC completely differ with the official report. He claims Cheney was there 40 minutes before the report does. He claims they were watching flight 77 head for the Pentagon for at least 15 minutes. The report claims they didn't know where 77 was until a minute or two before it crashed.

20th July 2006, 07:16 PM	#2
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by Mutton-Head Why was Norman Mineta's testimony not part of 9/11 commission report? His account of the events that occurred in the PEOC completely differ with the official report. He claims Cheney was there 40 minutes before the report does. He claims they were watching flight 77 head for the Pentagon for at least 15 minutes. The report claims they didn't know where 77 was until a minute or two before it crashed. Mutton-Head! You're back! FAA notification to the military about flight 77's position was 13 minutes before it struck the Pentagon. If Mineta knew it was headed for the Pentagon, he should apply for Randi's million-dollar challenge. Or he should be arrested!
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

20th July 2006, 07:21 PM	#3
Money-Lover New Blood Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2	Mineta says that an officer was saying "the plane is 50 miles out... The plane is 30 miles out..." etc. Cheney and the others in the PEOC are tracking the plane, and know that it is headed for the Pentagon.
Money-Lover New Blood Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2

20th July 2006, 07:24 PM	#4
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by Money-Lover Cheney and the others in the PEOC are tracking the plane, and know that it is headed for the Pentagon. Your evidence? Edit: Welcome, Money-Lover! Your evidence?
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links Last edited by Gravy; 20th July 2006 at 07:26 PM.

20th July 2006, 07:36 PM	#6
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	What's your point?
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

20th July 2006, 07:33 PM	#5
Mutton-Head Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 270	In Mineta's testimony to Lee Hamilton, he claims that at around 9:26, a young man in the PEOC is informing Cheney about a plane's approach. The young man gives Cheney updates every 10 miles. Have you seen this video?

20th July 2006, 07:40 PM	#7
Mutton-Head Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 270	My point is, if they are tracking the plane, for at least 15 minutes by Mineta's account, why is no warning given to the Pentagon?

20th July 2006, 07:44 PM	#8
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by Mutton-Head My point is, if they are tracking the plane, for at least 15 minutes by Mineta's account, why is no warning given to the Pentagon? According to your timing it would be 12 minutes. Mutton-Head, are you suggesting that someone knew the plane was headed for the Pentagon?
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

20th July 2006, 07:48 PM	#9
Mutton-Head Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 270	Mineta arrives at 9:20. Five minutes later, Cheney is informed that "the plane is 50 miles out.." At 9:36, the plane hits the Pentagon. From the time Mineta enters the PEOC to the time the Pentagon is hit, is about 15 minutes. Since Mineta arrives after Cheney is made aware that a plane is indeed headed towards the Pentagon, or the White house, we can infer that they have been watching the plane for at least 15 minutes.

20th July 2006, 07:58 PM	#10
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by Mutton-Head Mineta arrives at 9:20. Five minutes later, Cheney is informed that "the plane is 50 miles out.." At 9:36, the plane hits the Pentagon. From the time Mineta enters the PEOC to the time the Pentagon is hit, is about 15 minutes. Since Mineta arrives after Cheney is made aware that a plane is indeed headed towards the Pentagon, or the White house, we can infer that they have been watching the plane for at least 15 minutes. As I said, the FAA notified the military of flight 77's heading 13 minutes before it hit the Pentagon at 9:38. Did someone say the plane was headed toward the Pentagon or the White House? How about the Capitol Building? The State Department? CIA HQ in Virginia? The NRO building? None of these buildings were evacuated. Some, like the Pentagon, were designed to be quite safe.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

20th July 2006, 07:59 PM	#11
gumboot Norad Ninja Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,396	Originally Posted by Mutton-Head Why was Norman Mineta's testimony not part of 9/11 commission report? His account of the events that occurred in the PEOC completely differ with the official report. He claims Cheney was there 40 minutes before the report does. He claims they were watching flight 77 head for the Pentagon for at least 15 minutes. The report claims they didn't know where 77 was until a minute or two before it crashed. I can adress some of this... Firstly, I'm not surprised at all that people have conflicting accounts of what happened and what time they were where. Such is the way of things. Secondly, AA77... and the "50 miles out, 30 miles out, does the order still stand?" Fiasco... A few facts (according to the official story) 1) The "standing order" for immediate threats was for fighters to intercept and shoot down the said threat. Confirmation was only required for non-immediate threats. It is therefore logical to assume the "does the order still stand?" question was a staff member asking if the standing order should be applied to a civilian aircraft full of American citizens. No doubt this staff member was relaying the question from others - most likely the pilots themselves. Given that targetting civilians is a war crime, I can understand why the pilots kept asking... 2) According to official reports AA77 was first located at 0932 by Dulles terminal. An Air National Guard C-130 began trailing the aircraft at this point. Until this point the FAA had assumed AA77 had crashed, and had requested military assistance in a search and rescue operation. 2) AA77 hit the pentagon at 0938 - six minutes after being identified. 3) At typical cruising speed (mach 0.8 or 950 km/h) a Boeing 757 would cover about 60 miles in this six minute period. 4) This collaborates with the reports that only count down from 50 miles out. Lastly, Mineta himself has repeatedly admitted most of his opinions are based purely on speculation. He didn't know what order was being referred to. He didn't know which aircraft was being referred to. He made assumptions about all this. Quote: Mineta responds to a condescending greeting by Commissioner Roemer by giving a timeline for when he arrived in the PEOC (9:20), and an estimate of when the conversation between the young man and the vice president occurred (9:25-26). Roemer paints a picture of chaos and conflicting decision making between the functioning of the Situation Room and the PEOC and proposes a confused scenario of how a shoot down order might have transpired, to which Mineta replies: Mineta: "That would be speculation on my part as to what was happening on that day." Mineta claims that the conversation took place between 0925-26 hrs, and that this conversation began with "the plane is 50 miles out". I would like Mineta's explanation for how an aircraft travelling at nearly 10 miles a minute can be a mere 50 miles from its target a full 12 minutes before impact. Especially given Mineta's account in other interviews: Quote: Inside, Mineta was briefed on the situation and escorted down to the presidential emergency operations center, also known as PEOC, a command bunker beneath the White House. There, with Vice President Dick Cheney, they established direct contact with the Federal Aviation Administration and attempted to assess the situation. In minutes, a report came in about a plane 50 miles away, headed low and fast along the river toward Washington, D.C. One might surmise from this that the aircraft was travelling FASTER than cruising speed, which would put it even FURTHER than 60 miles out at the moment an Air National Guard C-130 began tracking it (which was at 0932hrs). The most logical explanation for all this is both Cheney and Mineta got their times completely wrong. Mineta did not arrive at 0900, he arrived "minutes" before 0932. And Cheney did not arrive at 0940. He arrived some time before Mineta. For reference, if Mineta's first timeline is correct, the 757 averaged about 250 mph for the final 50 miles of approach. 250mph is absolute minimum speed for a 757 without deploying full flaps as on approach. Pretty impressive for the hijacker to maintain a 757 at dead on stall speed for a full 12 minutes... yet kind of odd if he wanted to slam into the Pentagon for maximum damage. -Andrew ETA: "C-130"
gumboot Norad Ninja Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,396	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. "My see-saw analogy renders any need for "calculations" moot." - Lyte Trip Last edited by gumboot; 20th July 2006 at 08:02 PM.

20th July 2006, 08:05 PM	#12
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	You're very nice to these people, gumboot. I'm trying to get them to do their homework.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

20th July 2006, 08:11 PM	#13
Mutton-Head Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 270	I understand your time analysis Gumboot. You're right, the times given by Mineta are an approximation. But my question still stands as to why the whole Mineta testimony is ignored in the official report. Because the official report claims that Cheney arrived at PEOC at 9:58, twenty minutes after 77 hit the Pentagon. According to the official report, The conversation that Mineta described couldn't have even taken place.

20th July 2006, 08:13 PM	#14
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by Mutton-Head I understand your time analysis Gumboot. You're right, the times given by Mineta are an approximation. But my question still stands as to why the whole Mineta testimony is ignored in the official report. Because the official report claims that Cheney arrived at PEOC at 9:58, twenty minutes after 77 hit the Pentagon. According to the official report, The conversation that Mineta described couldn't have even taken place. And what's your best guess about that discrepancy?
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

20th July 2006, 08:15 PM	#15
Metullus Forum ¾-Wit Pro Tem Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Waldo's Pond Posts: 3,303	Originally Posted by Mutton-Head Mineta arrives at 9:20. Five minutes later, Cheney is informed that "the plane is 50 miles out.." At 9:36, the plane hits the Pentagon. From the time Mineta enters the PEOC to the time the Pentagon is hit, is about 15 minutes. Since Mineta arrives after Cheney is made aware that a plane is indeed headed towards the Pentagon, or the White house, we can infer that they have been watching the plane for at least 15 minutes. I understand that the plane was traveling at something above 450kts when it hit the Pentagon. Lets say that the plane was traveling at 400mph (which is something less than 400kts). That would mean that when the plane was 50 miles out it was approximately 7.5 minutes from impact, not 15 minutes as you suggest. In order for your scenerio to be the case the plane would have to have been traveling no faster than 200mph, a suggestion I have never seen. Am I missing something? ETA - Boy am I behind the times....
	__________________ "I DON'T SEE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET, IF THERE WERE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET I WOULD SEE IT THEREFORE THERE IS NO CHICKEN IN MY BASKET! DO YOU ADMIT THERE IS NO CHICKEN?" - fowlsound 9/19/2005 I have met Tim at TAM. He is of sufficient height to piss on your leg. - Doubt 10/7/2005 Aristotle taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons. - Will Cuppy

20th July 2006, 08:17 PM	#16
Mutton-Head Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 270	Quote: And what's your best guess about that discrepancy? I'm concerned about the fact that what Mineta testified to was ignored.

20th July 2006, 08:30 PM	#17
ARubberChickenWithAPulley Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,645	Quote: I understand your time analysis Gumboot. You're right, the times given by Mineta are an approximation. But my question still stands as to why the whole Mineta testimony is ignored in the official report. Because the official report claims that Cheney arrived at PEOC at 9:58, twenty minutes after 77 hit the Pentagon. According to the official report, The conversation that Mineta described couldn't have even taken place. The report says that "the Vice President entered the underground tunnel leading to the shelter at 9:37. Once inside, Vice President Cheney and the agents paused in an area of the tunnel that had a secure phone, a bench, and television." The report later states that Cheney arrived in the shelter conference room at 9:58. It seems likely, therefore, that Cheney was getting his updates on the status of the plane while he was in the tunnel and that that was the location that Mineta was referring to.

20th July 2006, 08:32 PM	#18
Mutton-Head Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 270	Originally Posted by gumboot 1) The "standing order" for immediate threats was for fighters to intercept and shoot down the said threat. Confirmation was only required for non-immediate threats. Where do you get this information? Intercept and shoot-down are two different things. Intercept means simply to fly your fighter next to the plane in question and make contact.

20th July 2006, 08:34 PM	#19
Woody- Scholar Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 89	There is a big difference between ignoring his testimony and deciding to leave it out since it didnt fit with other witnesses testimony about the time line. ie if 25 people give testimony that agree with how the events of that day occurred and only one persons testimony is different then its most likely that the one person is in error.
Woody- Scholar Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 89

20th July 2006, 08:34 PM	#20
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by Mutton-Head I'm concerned about the fact that what Mineta testified to was ignored. Do you mean the timing of the events he recalled, or the events themselves? Meanwhile, in the Pentagon... Quote: Inside the NMCC, the deputy director for operations called for an all-purpose "significant event" conference. It began at 9:29, with a brief recap: two aircraft had struck the World Trade Center, there was a confirmed hijacking of American 11, and Otis fighters had been scrambled. The FAA was asked to provide an update, but teh line was silent because the FAA had not been added to the call. A minute later, the deputy director stated that it had just been confirmed that American 11 was still airborne and heading toward D.C. He directed the transition to an air threat conference call. NORAD confirmed that American 11 was airborne and heading toward Washington, relaying the erroneous FAA information already mentioned. The call then ended, at about 9:34. It resumed at 9:37 as and air threat conference call, which lasted more than eight hours. 9/11 Commission Report, page 37
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

20th July 2006, 08:39 PM	#21
Mutton-Head Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 270	Originally Posted by ARubberChickenWithAPulley The report says that "the Vice President entered the underground tunnel leading to the shelter at 9:37. Once inside, Vice President Cheney and the agents paused in an area of the tunnel that had a secure phone, a bench, and television." The report later states that Cheney arrived in the shelter conference room at 9:58. It seems likely, therefore, that Cheney was getting his updates on the status of the plane while he was in the tunnel and that that was the location that Mineta was referring to. Yes, and this completely contradicts Mineta's testimony. He arrived around 9:20. Cheney was already there. The conversation about the plane didn't start until about five minutes after Mineta arrived. This is not a time discrepency. According to the official 9/11 report, this event that Mineta described did not even take place.

20th July 2006, 08:47 PM	#22
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by Mutton-Head Where do you get this information? Intercept and shoot-down are two different things. Intercept means simply to fly your fighter next to the plane in question and make contact. http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjc...i/3610_01a.pdf
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

20th July 2006, 08:48 PM	#23
gumboot Norad Ninja Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,396	Originally Posted by Mutton-Head I understand your time analysis Gumboot. You're right, the times given by Mineta are an approximation. But my question still stands as to why the whole Mineta testimony is ignored in the official report. Because the official report claims that Cheney arrived at PEOC at 9:58, twenty minutes after 77 hit the Pentagon. According to the official report, The conversation that Mineta described couldn't have even taken place. Well I have a question... Why does it matter? Maybe his testimony really was lost due to a "snafu". Maybe whoever provided Cheney's times was completely wrong. Cheney himself has reported on National Television that he was in the bunker when AA77 hit the Pentagon, so clearly HE doesn't think he arrived there at 0958. The common logic by CTers is that producing enough errors in the details will produce an overall error in the big picture. But if those errors are irrelevant, you can combine as many as you want. It won't mean a thing. -Andrew
gumboot Norad Ninja Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,396	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. "My see-saw analogy renders any need for "calculations" moot." - Lyte Trip

20th July 2006, 08:48 PM	#24
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by Mutton-Head Yes, and this completely contradicts Mineta's testimony. He arrived around 9:20. Cheney was already there. The conversation about the plane didn't start until about five minutes after Mineta arrived. This is not a time discrepency. According to the official 9/11 report, this event that Mineta described did not even take place. Read the footnotes about how the timing of Cheney's movements and the activities in the PEOC were cross-referenced.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

20th July 2006, 08:56 PM	#25
Mutton-Head Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 270	Originally Posted by gumboot Well I have a question... Why does it matter? Maybe his testimony really was lost due to a "snafu". Maybe whoever provided Cheney's times was completely wrong. Cheney himself has reported on National Television that he was in the bunker when AA77 hit the Pentagon, so clearly HE doesn't think he arrived there at 0958. The common logic by CTers is that producing enough errors in the details will produce an overall error in the big picture. But if those errors are irrelevant, you can combine as many as you want. It won't mean a thing. -Andrew Sorry, but I'm an engineer by trade, and we know the importance of being accurate. Quote: Maybe his testimony really was lost due to a "snafu". Hahahahaha... That's funny. I like all of your maybes. Oh well, it's only a massive criminal investigation. We're only trying to find out how 19 hijackers brought the American military to its knees. So what if we loose a few pieces of testimony, or can't keep track of when events occured.

20th July 2006, 08:59 PM	#26
Mutton-Head Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 270	Originally Posted by Gravy http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjc...i/3610_01a.pdf Thanks for the document. But intercept and shoot-down are still two different things. Cheney himself tried to insinuate that these two things were synonomous. They are not.

20th July 2006, 09:00 PM	#27
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by Mutton-Head Thanks for the document. But intercept and shoot-down are still two different things. Cheney himself tried to insinuate that these two things were synonomous. They are not. Read it again.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

20th July 2006, 09:03 PM	#28
ARubberChickenWithAPulley Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,645	Quote: Hahahahaha... That's funny. I like all of your maybes. Oh well, it's only a massive criminal investigation. We're only trying to find out how 19 hijackers brought the American military to its knees. So what if we loose a few pieces of testimony, or can't keep track of when events occured. I am not sure in what way Mineta's testimony can be considered "lost." I pulled it up very quickly after a search on Google, from the 911 Commission's official website. The Commission used the notes taken by Cheney's staff, several official logs from the various place Cheney was at, phone records, etc. to attempt to reconstruct his timeline. They prioritized the logs, whose entire purpose is to document exact times and events, over someone trying to recall exact times from memory. There is nothing particularly odd about that.

20th July 2006, 09:05 PM	#29
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by Mutton-Head Sorry, but I'm an engineer by trade, and we know the importance of being accurate. Allow me to refresh everyone's memory about this post and those that followed. http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=105
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

20th July 2006, 09:08 PM	#30
gumboot Norad Ninja Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,396	Originally Posted by Mutton-Head Sorry, but I'm an engineer by trade, and we know the importance of being accurate. The 9/11 Commission Report was an overview and summary of events. The major detailed investigations in various aspects of the event were still ongoing at the time. Anyone who thinks the commission report is a precise 100% accurate account of EXACTLY what happened is stupid. Originally Posted by Mutton-Head Hahahahaha... That's funny. I like all of your maybes. Oh well, it's only a massive criminal investigation. We're only trying to find out how 19 hijackers brought the American military to its knees. So what if we loose a few pieces of testimony, or can't keep track of when events occured. What nonsense. The 9/11 Commission Report was not a criminal investigation. The Criminal Investigation is being conducted by the FBI, and as far as I am aware it is still ongoing. -Andrew
gumboot Norad Ninja Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,396	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. "My see-saw analogy renders any need for "calculations" moot." - Lyte Trip

20th July 2006, 09:08 PM	#31
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,042	Don't forget to figure in all the smoke and bathroom breaks of everyone involved.
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,042

20th July 2006, 09:08 PM	#33
Mutton-Head Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 270	Originally Posted by Gravy Allow me to refresh everyone's memory about this post and those that followed. http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=105 Hahahaha.... touche. ouch. Let me clarify, I'm an electrical engineer.

20th July 2006, 09:09 PM	#34
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by ARubberChickenWithAPulley I am not sure in what way Mineta's testimony can be considered "lost." I pulled it up very quickly after a search on Google, from the 911 Commission's official website. The Commission used the notes taken by Cheney's staff, several official logs from the various place Cheney was at, phone records, etc. to attempt to reconstruct his timeline. They prioritized the logs, whose entire purpose is to document exact times and events, over someone trying to recall exact times from memory. There is nothing particularly odd about that. ARCWAP, you must be incorrect. Mutton-Head is the accurate one here, and he certainly wouldn't say Mineta's testimony was lost when it wasn't, and he certainly wouldn't imply that one person's memory of the time of day trumps multiple cross-referenced sources if it weren't true.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

20th July 2006, 09:12 PM	#35
Mutton-Head Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 270	Originally Posted by Gravy ARCWAP, you must be incorrect. Mutton-Head is the accurate one here, and he certainly wouldn't say Mineta's testimony was lost when it wasn't, and he certainly wouldn't imply that one person's memory of the time of day trumps multiple cross-referenced sources if it weren't true. According to the 9/11 report, the event that Mineta described: The young man keeping Cheney informed about the plane approaching, and the question "Does the order still stand?" According to the 9/11 report, this event never took place.

20th July 2006, 09:14 PM	#36
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by Mutton-Head Hahahaha.... touche. ouch. Let me clarify, I'm an electrical engineer. I'll also clarify. My reference to your former post concerned your knowing the importance of being accurate, not what kind of engineer you are.
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links