Homeopathic Medications

jkl2000 · 24th July 2006, 10:21 AM

I just read James' comments for the week, and I was a little surprised to see him coming down on the entire realm of homeopathic medicine. I'm very much a skeptic, and a long-time fan of James' work. For the most part, when I hear of homeopathy, I do sort of cringe. And I admit I'm not familiar with everything "homeopathy" includes. But I live in NYC, and these little tubes of homeopathic remedies are available in lots of healthfood stores and pharmacies all over town.

A couple of years ago my son had a problem with warts on his chest. His doctor said it was quite common, and prescribed an ointment that is apparently prescribed commonly for warts these days. It was extremely expensive, and did next to nothing to help. A friend told us to try a specific homeopathic remedy, so I got it at one of the health food stores. The guy who worked there said people had had a lot of success using it to cure warts. Long-story-short: using this remedy, my son's warts were completely gone after taking the remedy for less than two weeks. And these warts had stuck around for several months.

Now of course, I can't prove it was the remedy that did it, but I don't think it's that unlikely that an herbal remedy might help with something like that. After all, I believe the ointment that the doctor prescribed and which was made by some major pharmaceutical company was largely plant-derived.

So I'm wondering if James and other skeptics are totally sceptical of these herbal remedies? I also saw that in the context of his comments on that "camp" that taught dowsing, etc. James was putting down yoga and meditation. At least, he seemed to be. I was surprised that James would appear to be putting down the entire "disciplines" of yoga and meditation, which seem to be pretty universally accepted as having at least some positive values to people. I don't think people are really making unrealistic claims about the benefits of yoga or meditation. Are they?

Chris Haynes · 24th July 2006, 10:29 AM

Warts are caused by a virus and often go away on their own. From this Mayo Clinic about Common Warts is this quote "In fact, they're usually harmless and often disappear on their own."

In other words, it was a self-limiting condition that went away on its own. It would have happened if you had ignored them.

By the way, the previous page on warts was accessed by searching "warts" on www.medlineplus.gov, a much better place to get relevent medical information than Google.

For information on homeopathy try:
http://www.skepdic.com/homeo.html
and
http://www.badhomeopath.com/

Edit to add: Homeopathy is NOT herbal medicine. Herbal meds have some actual active ingredients. What you need to do is present verifiable research if you believe that something works. I would suggest you start here: www.pubmed.gov

gfunkusarelius · 24th July 2006, 10:32 AM

i dont know about your experience, but i dont think you understand homeopathy. it is not herbal remedies. i made this same mistake and i think others do too. homeopathy is all about creating extremely dilute solutions. watch randi discuss it: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...meopathy+randi i think you will find it to be ridiculous.

is it possible what you got was a herbal remedy and not a homeopathic one at all? herbal rememdies, tho often useless or even dangerous, can be very effective.

Meffy · 24th July 2006, 10:33 AM

Some people claim learning yoga can lead to the ability to levitate. Is that unrealistic? I've been told that meditating in the right way on whatever I want will invariably bring me what I ask for. Sounds unrealistic to me.

Homeopathic remedies have NO active ingredient. If made according to the procedures claimed, they have been diluted until whatever material was in the original solution is completely gone, or at most one molecule is present in a swimming-pool or more of water. How can such substances have any effect? Double-blind tests (the only kind that is worth anything, and the kind homeopaths are deathly afraid of) show that -- sure enough -- they have no effect.

I'm sure your son's warts would've vanished with or without the homeopathic remedy. They do that.

And hi, welcome to the forum.

Meffy · 24th July 2006, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by gfunkusarelius

herbal rememdies, tho often useless or even dangerous, can be very effective.

Just so. Big Pharma tends to be on the lookout for substances they can turn into salable products. Worked with ASA (aspirin) from willow cambium. Most herbal folk remedies don't pan out. A few do, and some new remedies are found that weren't in healing folklore.

kittykatkarma · 24th July 2006, 11:08 AM

It can be humorous to read all that a herbal remedy can do, for example Sabal serrulata. So far I can find that it will cure my sons PDD NOS, help to enlarge my breasts, and when in double strength will boost microcirculation and stimulate the hair follicle so I don't have to suffer female hair loss.

Now that's quite a combination.

Psi Baba · 24th July 2006, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by jkl2000

A couple of years ago my son had a problem with warts on his chest. His doctor said it was quite common, and prescribed an ointment that is apparently prescribed commonly for warts these days. It was extremely expensive, and did next to nothing to help. A friend told us to try a specific homeopathic remedy, so I got it at one of the health food stores. The guy who worked there said people had had a lot of success using it to cure warts. Long-story-short: using this remedy, my son's warts were completely gone after taking the remedy for less than two weeks. And these warts had stuck around for several months.

What was the time lag between when the doctor's treatment was abandoned and the alt (I'll use the term "alt" since we don't know if it was homeopathic or herbal) treatment applied? What's being overlooked is the possibility that the original treatment might have started to work but was not given enough time. By the time the alt treatment was tried, the effects of the original treatment could already have been under way. It's possible that the virus was already killed, but it just took a while longer for the warts to disappear.

Meffy · 24th July 2006, 11:20 AM

@kittykat: And because herbal "remedies" aren't regulated by the FDA, they [edit: the makers of the supposed remedies, that is] don't have to provide any evidence that they can actually make good on their claims... which of course they can't. What a sweetheart deal that is!

elaine · 24th July 2006, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by jkl2000

....... I don't think people are really making unrealistic claims about the benefits of yoga or meditation. Are they?

What claims are you referring to?

My personal experience is that sitting meditation makes me spacey. I find a good hard bike ride helps me to become more "present" and "centered" to use terminology common to the practice.

...and I love yoga for the physical benefits that cycling does not provide me, other than that....

kittykatkarma · 24th July 2006, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Meffy

And because herbal "remedies" aren't regulated by the FDA, they [edit: the makers of the supposed remedies, that is] don't have to provide any evidence that they can actually make good on their claims... which of course they can't. What a sweetheart deal that is!

Something like the Snake Oil Doctors of old...

It's really scary too. There was a period of time when I did not have insurance and my son's meds cannot be generic and run upwards of $150 US Dollars per month. If I were of lesser intellect and skepticism, a $35 dollar a month cure all could have been tempting.

Makes you wonder what the un-reported harm has been done.

Kaarjuus · 24th July 2006, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by jkl2000

A couple of years ago my son had a problem with warts on his chest. His doctor said it was quite common, and prescribed an ointment that is apparently prescribed commonly for warts these days. It was extremely expensive, and did next to nothing to help.

This is strange. I've had warts several times, sometimes for several years, sometimes they went away themselves in a few weeks. However, there are several cheap effective medicines for curing warts. Silver nitrate pencils, for example. Also, greater celandine juice is effective at curing warts, and they grow wild in many places in Europe and North America.

Quote:

I was surprised that James would appear to be putting down the entire "disciplines" of yoga and meditation, which seem to be pretty universally accepted as having at least some positive values to people. I don't think people are really making unrealistic claims about the benefits of yoga or meditation. Are they?

Nothing wrong with people doing stretching exercises to get in better shape. However, I suggest you explore the concept of chakras to get a better idea how realistic the claims of yogis are.

Mojo · 25th July 2006, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by Hydrogen Cyanide

In other words, it was a self-limiting condition that went away on its own. It would have happened if you had ignored them.

An ideal condition for a treatment that relies on the post hoc fallacy for evidence of efficacy.

steenkh · 25th July 2006, 03:05 AM

On the other hand, not all warts disappear of themselves. When I was a teenager, I had warts on my fingers that stayed there several years. At first they were only at the nails, but they spread to the fingerjoints, and I finally went to a doctor. For more than a year I went through every remedy the pharmacy had in the arsenal, but nothing helped. Finally, the warts were removed with surgery, and that did the trick.

One wart was so small that it was overloked. It was dormant for 20 years, but suddenly it started frowing and multiplying. The (new) doctor wanted to start me on the same regimen of remedies that I had tried as a yongster, but with difficulty, I managed to persuade him to do surgery. This time they were frozen away, and after just two treatments, I got rid of them - hopefully forever.

I tell this story to stress that warts are not always benign, and you cannot take for granted that they will disappear of themselves.

I think that judging from the OP, it is reasonable to believe that the warts were indeed removed by the "homoeopathic" ointment, but knowing homoeopathy, I doubt that this was actually homoeopathy. For the general populace, homoeopathy is a very good brand, and I have seen stuff sold as homoeopathic that was just herbal. Besides, some homoeopaths also prescribe "homoeopathic" remedies that are undiluted mother tincture (that is when they only want a weak effect!), and this could also have some effect.

Meffy · 25th July 2006, 06:12 AM

@steenkh: I know whereof you speak.

[squeam alert! ickiness ahead; read spoiler only if not eating, and maybe not then]

I don't know whether plantar warts are supposed to be viral in nature.

Badly Shaved Monkey · 25th July 2006, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by jkl2000

Long-story-short: using this remedy, my son's warts were completely gone after taking the remedy for less than two weeks. And these warts had stuck around for several months.

The short answer is that your story provides no evidence for or against homeopathy. It is for a whole host of other reasons that we can state that the only thing that did not help the warts go away was the homeopathic remedy.

However, that is not very emotionally satisfying. You still have the personal experience of a problem that had persisted for months going away quite soon after you started your homeopathic remedy.

Here are the questions you should ask yourself;

If they hadn't gone away, would you have been starting a thread to tell us of that failure? Let's say, no. Would dozens of other people who also had no apparently successful result start threads to tell us that. Also, probably no. So against your story of apparent success, there is an uncountable and unaccounted number of obvious failures. This is the difficulty of coincidence. To the person on the receiving end of the fluke outcome it feels like more than a coincidence, but looked at from outside it does not.

Did you tell anyone today about how, amazingly, you did not meet an old school friend parking their car yesterday when you hadn't seen them for 20 years?

Our lives are surrounded by a near-infinity of amazing coincidences that might have happened, but just don't. We only tell people about the ones that do.

To put it another way, someone has to win the lottery. It's just unlikely to be yourself.

Also, think why there are so many 'proven' wart cures littering folk medicine. It's because warts go away on their own and people give the credit to whatever patented tonic or wisewoman's remedy they are taking at the time.

p.s. if it wasn't warts but molluscum contagiosum then "Individual lesions of molluscum contagiosum usually disappear within about 2 - 3 months. Complete disappearance of all lesions generally occurs within about 6 - 18 months." and the story is even less remarkable given that the prior history was already several months

Katana · 25th July 2006, 08:03 AM

Did you know that applying duct tape to a wart is actually more effective than freezing it? Yes, duct tape. I couldn't access the actual article, but here's a link describing the study and its findings.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030201/tips/8.html

The theory is that the duct tape stimulates an immune response at the site and "directs attention", if you will, to the wart.

I just want to know who came up with the study.

Meffy · 25th July 2006, 09:16 AM

Duct tape also makes great prom dresses and suits!

KingMerv00 · 25th July 2006, 09:18 AM

jkl,

Did the posts above answer your questions?

Edit: For the record, I originally thought homeopathy was herbal medicine too.

Meffy · 25th July 2006, 09:29 AM

I'd like to know the name of the remedy. It would be interesting to find whether it's homeopathic or just herbal.

Katana · 25th July 2006, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Meffy

Duct tape also makes great prom dresses and suits!

Does it leave you hairless when you disrobe? Good deal!

Meffy · 25th July 2006, 09:34 AM

No no -- not I! I prefer to keep my fur. I wrote a limerick or two about duct tape promwear a while back but have lost 'em. Ah well.

http://www.ducktapeclub.com/contests/prom/
http://www.octanecreative.com/ducttape/fashion/prom/
http://www.octanecreative.com/ductta...n/fashion.html

Dave1001 · 25th July 2006, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by kittykatkarma

Something like the Snake Oil Doctors of old...

It's really scary too. There was a period of time when I did not have insurance and my son's meds cannot be generic and run upwards of $150 US Dollars per month. If I were of lesser intellect and skepticism, a $35 dollar a month cure all could have been tempting.

Makes you wonder what the un-reported harm has been done.

or the eugenic benefit?!

Meffy · 25th July 2006, 09:46 AM

Dave, those two words do NOT belong together.

KingMerv00 · 25th July 2006, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Dave1001

or the eugenic benefit?!

Ignorance is not genetic.

Chris Haynes · 25th July 2006, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Meffy

...
I don't know whether plantar warts are supposed to be viral in nature.

Yes, they are:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/plantar-warts/DS00509

"Plantar warts are noncancerous skin growths on the soles of your feet caused by the human papillomavirus (HPV), which enters your body through tiny cuts and breaks in your skin. Plantar warts often develop beneath pressure points in your feet, such as the heels or balls of your feet."

Yes, some warts need to be surgically removed when they are bothersome. My son had warts, but they did not bother him. But then my daughter had some on her toe that hurt. So I brought both of them in to the doctor. My son's warts had already disappeared (making the appointment mush have been the cure!)... and the doctor had to shave some of daughter's wart to make it easier for her to walk.

They are still a virus, and your reaction is to them is often based on your immune system. So if the system is stressed, the can occur. I also notice they are HPV... I wonder if the new vaccines would help (I guess it is different varieties of HPV in the vaccine!).

Meffy · 25th July 2006, 11:35 AM

@HCN: Thanks. So far my tendency to perform mini-surgeries on myself (the warts, removal of small subcutaneous cysts, etc.) hasn't got me in trouble. My immune system is plenty strong, which helps there too.

Bowser · 26th July 2006, 09:11 AM

jkl, experiences such as you had, repeated numerous times for various conditions which are not all self-limiting, is what does eventually turn hard skeptics into believers. I know for absolute fact that homeopathy is real. I will never be able to "prove" it to any of the professional skeptics on this board, but that doesn't matter to me.

Of course, it is very dangerous (especially on this forum) to suggest that maybe "some" homeopathy is real, because one you are past that hurdle, it is just disingenuous to say it only sometimes works. Either homeopathy as a principle works or it doesn't. The BSMs say never, ever, ever, at least not in a way that can't be explained by placebo or passage of time. Homeopathy is just a matter of matching the right remedy to the right situation. If that doesn't work, it is invariably a reflection of the limitations of the prescriber, not the potential medicine. The principles are simple, but sometimes very difficult to put into practice.

As others have mentioned, homeopathy is not herbalism. Some remedies are made from plants, but some are animal or mineral. It does not need to have an herbal base to be homeopathic.

elaine · 26th July 2006, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Bowser

jkl, experiences such as you had, repeated numerous times for various conditions which are not all self-limiting, is what does eventually turn hard skeptics into believers. I know for absolute fact that homeopathy is real. I will never be able to "prove" it to any of the professional skeptics on this board, but that doesn't matter to me.

Of course, it is very dangerous (especially on this forum) to suggest that maybe "some" homeopathy is real, because one you are past that hurdle, it is just disingenuous to say it only sometimes works. Either homeopathy as a principle works or it doesn't. The BSMs say never, ever, ever, at least not in a way that can't be explained by placebo or passage of time. Homeopathy is just a matter of matching the right remedy to the right situation. If that doesn't work, it is invariably a reflection of the limitations of the prescriber, not the potential medicine. The principles are simple, but sometimes very difficult to put into practice.

As others have mentioned, homeopathy is not herbalism. Some remedies are made from plants, but some are animal or mineral. It does not need to have an herbal base to be homeopathic.

Bowser,

It's only dangerous on this forum to make claims such as "some homeopathy is real" because we require you to back up such assertions. I have no problem with you believing in homeopathy. But to come to this forum and say things like, you would never be able to prove it to "professional skeptics", is a cop-out, and leads me to believe that you don't have sufficient evidence to back-up your claims.

For the record, I come from a place as being a former believer in and user of chiropractors, homeopathy and psychics. So yes, I am capable of changing my mind as suitable evidence is presented to me.

elaine · 26th July 2006, 09:28 AM

double post

Kaarjuus · 26th July 2006, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Bowser

I know for absolute fact that homeopathy is real. I will never be able to "prove" it to any of the professional skeptics on this board, but that doesn't matter to me.

Err.. I don't think anybody here needs proof that homeopathy is real. Homeopathy is very real. It is in-your-face real. Homeopathy can be seen everywhere. It exists. That is unquestionable.

It just doesn't work.

Quote:

The BSMs say never, ever, ever, at least not in a way that can't be explained by placebo or passage of time.

Who are BSMs?

Quote:

Homeopathy is just a matter of matching the right remedy to the right situation. If that doesn't work, it is invariably a reflection of the limitations of the prescriber, not the potential medicine.

So.. the only problem with homeopathy not working so far is that the prescribers are limited? If only there was a *real* homeopath out there who could match the remedy properly. Alas, when will such a person come forth..

Psiload · 26th July 2006, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Bowser

***snip*** If that doesn't work, it is invariably a reflection of the limitations of the prescriber, not the potential medicine. The principles are simple, but sometimes very difficult to put into practice.***snip***

If homeopathy doesn't work in a "one size fits all" manner, then why is it sold that way?

http://www.helios.co.uk/hh.html#AE

Quote:

Helios Homoeopathic Remedy Kits are unique and are ideal for newcomers and patients, as well as the more experienced users of homeopathy. Each kit contains a range of remedies which are useful in treating the most common home ailments and many first aid situations.

Each kit comes with its own comprehensive, self-prescribing guide

steenkh · 26th July 2006, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Bowser

The principles are simple, but sometimes very difficult to put into practice.

It seems only possible to put to practice when doing nothing would have been just as effective. Do you have any thoughts on why homeopathy consistently fails when controlled against placebo?

Quote:

As others have mentioned, homeopathy is not herbalism. Some remedies are made from plants, but some are animal or mineral. It does not need to have an herbal base to be homeopathic.

Some remedies are made from moonlight, and other remedies are made from gamma-radiation. In any case, what really matters is that you believe what it says on the label, because until now, no homoeopath have claimed to be able to distinguish a bottle of homoeopathic remedy from a bottle of the corresponding pure solvent.

steenkh · 26th July 2006, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Kaarjuus

Who are BSMs?

Probably people like Badly Shaved Monkey, a prominent anti-homoeopath vet on this forum.

DaveW · 26th July 2006, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Meffy

@steenkh: I know whereof you speak.

[squeam alert! ickiness ahead; read spoiler only if not eating, and maybe not then]

I don't know whether plantar warts are supposed to be viral in nature.

I had a bad case of plantar warts a few years ago. Had them for a while, really, but only started to bother me a couple of years ago, so I finally started treatment on them. Tried the nitrogen freeze, the duct tape, the special wart bandages, etc. Nothing to this point made any progress. Finally got to a foot doctor, and he ended up burning them...but not with nitrogen. I don't know what the stuff was, but it came in a little bottle, burned more than nitrogen (feeling wise), and did the trick (after several treatments). This stuff was supposedly from some kind of beetle! (Based on a chemical from the beetle at least.)

P.S. The beetle stuff made some nasty blisters on my feet for a few days after each treatment, but after several years of getting nowhere, I was happy to endure that to get rid of the warts!

Magic 8 Ball · 26th July 2006, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by jkl2000

I just read James' comments for the week, and I was a little surprised to see him coming down on the entire realm of homeopathic medicine. I'm very much a skeptic, and a long-time fan of James' work. For the most part, when I hear of homeopathy, I do sort of cringe. And I admit I'm not familiar with everything "homeopathy" includes. But I live in NYC, and these little tubes of homeopathic remedies are available in lots of healthfood stores and pharmacies all over town.

A couple of years ago my son had a problem with warts on his chest. His doctor said it was quite common, and prescribed an ointment that is apparently prescribed commonly for warts these days. It was extremely expensive, and did next to nothing to help. A friend told us to try a specific homeopathic remedy, so I got it at one of the health food stores. The guy who worked there said people had had a lot of success using it to cure warts. Long-story-short: using this remedy, my son's warts were completely gone after taking the remedy for less than two weeks. And these warts had stuck around for several months.

Now of course, I can't prove it was the remedy that did it, but I don't think it's that unlikely that an herbal remedy might help with something like that. After all, I believe the ointment that the doctor prescribed and which was made by some major pharmaceutical company was largely plant-derived.

So I'm wondering if James and other skeptics are totally sceptical of these herbal remedies? I also saw that in the context of his comments on that "camp" that taught dowsing, etc. James was putting down yoga and meditation. At least, he seemed to be. I was surprised that James would appear to be putting down the entire "disciplines" of yoga and meditation, which seem to be pretty universally accepted as having at least some positive values to people. I don't think people are really making unrealistic claims about the benefits of yoga or meditation. Are they?

I wouldn't lump all homeopathic medications together. In fact, I wouldn't lump all FDA approved medications together either. The human body is very complex and "medications" that work for some people often don't work for others. My suggestion is to research anything you are about to try from a scientific point of view (ignoring testimonials as much as possible). You should also keep in mind that the body is very good at healing itself and you should never dismiss "coincidence."

Meffy · 26th July 2006, 10:22 AM

Hm, interesting. One chemical treatment that works pretty well turns out to be pure ASA -- that is to say, a highly concentrated form of aspirin -- plus a collodion base, dissolved in ether (don't know which ether). Didn't help my plantars but it did the job for a couple of small warts on my handpaws.

Meffy · 26th July 2006, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Magic 8 Ball

I wouldn't lump all homeopathic medications together.

My understanding is that all true homeopathic preparations are 100% water, with no active ingredient remaining. Why shouldn't they be lumped together?

Also hi, welcome to the forums.

Bronze Dog · 26th July 2006, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Bowser

I will never be able to "prove" it to any of the professional skeptics on this board, but that doesn't matter to me.

You can prove it with a double-blind control study.

Quote:

The BSMs say never, ever, ever, at least not in a way that can't be explained by placebo or passage of time.

Double-blind control studies are intended to eliminate those as explanations by comparing it side-by-side with placebo and time.

Quote:

Homeopathy is just a matter of matching the right remedy to the right situation. If that doesn't work, it is invariably a reflection of the limitations of the prescriber, not the potential medicine. The principles are simple, but sometimes very difficult to put into practice.

Then you should get around to making the practice easier. So far, it's indistinguishible from all other forms of quackery.

Quote:

As others have mentioned, homeopathy is not herbalism. Some remedies are made from plants, but some are animal or mineral. It does not need to have an herbal base to be homeopathic.

If you can count diluting water that touched other water that touched a molecule from an herb as "made from plants"...

I wasn't sure where I was going with that conditional clause.

Magic 8 Ball · 26th July 2006, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Meffy

My understanding is that all true homeopathic preparations are 100% water, with no active ingredient remaining. Why shouldn't they be lumped together?

Also hi, welcome to the forums.

100% water is a very good cure for dehydration. It all depends on your illness.

vbloke · 26th July 2006, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Bowser

jkl, experiences such as you had, repeated numerous times for various conditions which are not all self-limiting, is what does eventually turn hard skeptics into believers. I know for absolute fact that homeopathy is real. I will never be able to "prove" it to any of the professional skeptics on this board, but that doesn't matter to me.

Of course, it is very dangerous (especially on this forum) to suggest that maybe "some" homeopathy is real, because one you are past that hurdle, it is just disingenuous to say it only sometimes works. Either homeopathy as a principle works or it doesn't. The BSMs say never, ever, ever, at least not in a way that can't be explained by placebo or passage of time. Homeopathy is just a matter of matching the right remedy to the right situation. If that doesn't work, it is invariably a reflection of the limitations of the prescriber, not the potential medicine. The principles are simple, but sometimes very difficult to put into practice.

As others have mentioned, homeopathy is not herbalism. Some remedies are made from plants, but some are animal or mineral. It does not need to have an herbal base to be homeopathic.

Speaking as a student of homeopathy (http://badhomeopath.com), I can say that homeopathy is not real. All of it's assumptions are based on medical knowledge that was proven false with the discovery of bacteria and virii.

The very first rememdy ever produced was for Malaria, by Hahnemann himself. After 200 years, as ably demonstrated by the BBC's recent Newsnight programme, homeopathy cannot cure or prevent Malaria. The specialist tropical Disese unit in London is seeing more and more cases of serious Malarial infections because more and more people are being told that Homeopathy can prevent or cure Malaria.

If the very first remedy ever created (and the one upon which the whole system of homeopathy is based on) doesn't work, then the rest cannot either. This is even disregarding the whole of the purely scientific arguments about dilutions and Avogadro's principle.

An interesting side note to all of this is when Hahnemann started out, more of his patients died that did from the medicines of the day. This is when he started diluting them more and more until they stopped dying. If I gave you paracetamol for your headache, it would stop the pain. If I gave you paracetamol diluted to 30C, there is nothing left in the solution to do anything.

If you can prove that the "vital force" exists, then homeopathy has a basis in fact, until then, it is so much water.

24th July 2006, 10:21 AM	#1
jkl2000 New Blood Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2	Homeopathic Medications I just read James' comments for the week, and I was a little surprised to see him coming down on the entire realm of homeopathic medicine. I'm very much a skeptic, and a long-time fan of James' work. For the most part, when I hear of homeopathy, I do sort of cringe. And I admit I'm not familiar with everything "homeopathy" includes. But I live in NYC, and these little tubes of homeopathic remedies are available in lots of healthfood stores and pharmacies all over town. A couple of years ago my son had a problem with warts on his chest. His doctor said it was quite common, and prescribed an ointment that is apparently prescribed commonly for warts these days. It was extremely expensive, and did next to nothing to help. A friend told us to try a specific homeopathic remedy, so I got it at one of the health food stores. The guy who worked there said people had had a lot of success using it to cure warts. Long-story-short: using this remedy, my son's warts were completely gone after taking the remedy for less than two weeks. And these warts had stuck around for several months. Now of course, I can't prove it was the remedy that did it, but I don't think it's that unlikely that an herbal remedy might help with something like that. After all, I believe the ointment that the doctor prescribed and which was made by some major pharmaceutical company was largely plant-derived. So I'm wondering if James and other skeptics are totally sceptical of these herbal remedies? I also saw that in the context of his comments on that "camp" that taught dowsing, etc. James was putting down yoga and meditation. At least, he seemed to be. I was surprised that James would appear to be putting down the entire "disciplines" of yoga and meditation, which seem to be pretty universally accepted as having at least some positive values to people. I don't think people are really making unrealistic claims about the benefits of yoga or meditation. Are they?
jkl2000 New Blood Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2

24th July 2006, 10:29 AM	#2
Chris Haynes Perfectly Poisonous Person Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West Posts: 4,205	Warts are caused by a virus and often go away on their own. From this Mayo Clinic about Common Warts is this quote "In fact, they're usually harmless and often disappear on their own." In other words, it was a self-limiting condition that went away on its own. It would have happened if you had ignored them. By the way, the previous page on warts was accessed by searching "warts" on www.medlineplus.gov, a much better place to get relevent medical information than Google. For information on homeopathy try: http://www.skepdic.com/homeo.html and http://www.badhomeopath.com/ Edit to add: Homeopathy is NOT herbal medicine. Herbal meds have some actual active ingredients. What you need to do is present verifiable research if you believe that something works. I would suggest you start here: www.pubmed.gov
	__________________ I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/ Last edited by Chris Haynes; 24th July 2006 at 10:31 AM.

24th July 2006, 10:32 AM	#3
gfunkusarelius Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 442	i dont know about your experience, but i dont think you understand homeopathy. it is not herbal remedies. i made this same mistake and i think others do too. homeopathy is all about creating extremely dilute solutions. watch randi discuss it: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...meopathy+randi i think you will find it to be ridiculous. is it possible what you got was a herbal remedy and not a homeopathic one at all? herbal rememdies, tho often useless or even dangerous, can be very effective.
	__________________ --------------------- "you can't argue with crazy" -not sure http://annoyed-skeptic.blogspot.com/ (my blog)

24th July 2006, 11:19 AM	#7
Psi Baba Homo Skepticalis Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Occupying my barstool Posts: 3,179	Originally Posted by jkl2000 A couple of years ago my son had a problem with warts on his chest. His doctor said it was quite common, and prescribed an ointment that is apparently prescribed commonly for warts these days. It was extremely expensive, and did next to nothing to help. A friend told us to try a specific homeopathic remedy, so I got it at one of the health food stores. The guy who worked there said people had had a lot of success using it to cure warts. Long-story-short: using this remedy, my son's warts were completely gone after taking the remedy for less than two weeks. And these warts had stuck around for several months. What was the time lag between when the doctor's treatment was abandoned and the alt (I'll use the term "alt" since we don't know if it was homeopathic or herbal) treatment applied? What's being overlooked is the possibility that the original treatment might have started to work but was not given enough time. By the time the alt treatment was tried, the effects of the original treatment could already have been under way. It's possible that the virus was already killed, but it just took a while longer for the warts to disappear.
	__________________ Save Caribbean Rum! (seriously)

24th July 2006, 12:12 PM	#11
Kaarjuus Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 252	Originally Posted by jkl2000 A couple of years ago my son had a problem with warts on his chest. His doctor said it was quite common, and prescribed an ointment that is apparently prescribed commonly for warts these days. It was extremely expensive, and did next to nothing to help. This is strange. I've had warts several times, sometimes for several years, sometimes they went away themselves in a few weeks. However, there are several cheap effective medicines for curing warts. Silver nitrate pencils, for example. Also, greater celandine juice is effective at curing warts, and they grow wild in many places in Europe and North America. Quote: I was surprised that James would appear to be putting down the entire "disciplines" of yoga and meditation, which seem to be pretty universally accepted as having at least some positive values to people. I don't think people are really making unrealistic claims about the benefits of yoga or meditation. Are they? Nothing wrong with people doing stretching exercises to get in better shape. However, I suggest you explore the concept of chakras to get a better idea how realistic the claims of yogis are.
Kaarjuus Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 252

24th July 2006, 10:33 AM	#4
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	Some people claim learning yoga can lead to the ability to levitate. Is that unrealistic? I've been told that meditating in the right way on whatever I want will invariably bring me what I ask for. Sounds unrealistic to me. Homeopathic remedies have NO active ingredient. If made according to the procedures claimed, they have been diluted until whatever material was in the original solution is completely gone, or at most one molecule is present in a swimming-pool or more of water. How can such substances have any effect? Double-blind tests (the only kind that is worth anything, and the kind homeopaths are deathly afraid of) show that -- sure enough -- they have no effect. I'm sure your son's warts would've vanished with or without the homeopathic remedy. They do that. And hi, welcome to the forum.

24th July 2006, 10:35 AM	#5
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	Originally Posted by gfunkusarelius herbal rememdies, tho often useless or even dangerous, can be very effective. Just so. Big Pharma tends to be on the lookout for substances they can turn into salable products. Worked with ASA (aspirin) from willow cambium. Most herbal folk remedies don't pan out. A few do, and some new remedies are found that weren't in healing folklore.

24th July 2006, 11:08 AM	#6
kittykatkarma Mew and improved Join Date: May 2006 Location: Slot 3.8 (3rd chassis from the bottom, right most slot) Posts: 503	It can be humorous to read all that a herbal remedy can do, for example Sabal serrulata. So far I can find that it will cure my sons PDD NOS, help to enlarge my breasts, and when in double strength will boost microcirculation and stimulate the hair follicle so I don't have to suffer female hair loss. Now that's quite a combination.

24th July 2006, 11:20 AM	#8
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	@kittykat: And because herbal "remedies" aren't regulated by the FDA, they [edit: the makers of the supposed remedies, that is] don't have to provide any evidence that they can actually make good on their claims... which of course they can't. What a sweetheart deal that is!

24th July 2006, 11:30 AM	#9
elaine Killer Squirrel Killer Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Denver Posts: 4,168	Originally Posted by jkl2000 ....... I don't think people are really making unrealistic claims about the benefits of yoga or meditation. Are they? What claims are you referring to? My personal experience is that sitting meditation makes me spacey. I find a good hard bike ride helps me to become more "present" and "centered" to use terminology common to the practice. ...and I love yoga for the physical benefits that cycling does not provide me, other than that....

24th July 2006, 12:02 PM	#10
kittykatkarma Mew and improved Join Date: May 2006 Location: Slot 3.8 (3rd chassis from the bottom, right most slot) Posts: 503	Originally Posted by Meffy And because herbal "remedies" aren't regulated by the FDA, they [edit: the makers of the supposed remedies, that is] don't have to provide any evidence that they can actually make good on their claims... which of course they can't. What a sweetheart deal that is! Something like the Snake Oil Doctors of old... It's really scary too. There was a period of time when I did not have insurance and my son's meds cannot be generic and run upwards of $150 US Dollars per month. If I were of lesser intellect and skepticism, a $35 dollar a month cure all could have been tempting. Makes you wonder what the un-reported harm has been done.

25th July 2006, 01:48 AM	#12
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,089	Originally Posted by Hydrogen Cyanide In other words, it was a self-limiting condition that went away on its own. It would have happened if you had ignored them. An ideal condition for a treatment that relies on the post hoc fallacy for evidence of efficacy.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

25th July 2006, 03:05 AM	#13
steenkh Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 3,468	On the other hand, not all warts disappear of themselves. When I was a teenager, I had warts on my fingers that stayed there several years. At first they were only at the nails, but they spread to the fingerjoints, and I finally went to a doctor. For more than a year I went through every remedy the pharmacy had in the arsenal, but nothing helped. Finally, the warts were removed with surgery, and that did the trick. One wart was so small that it was overloked. It was dormant for 20 years, but suddenly it started frowing and multiplying. The (new) doctor wanted to start me on the same regimen of remedies that I had tried as a yongster, but with difficulty, I managed to persuade him to do surgery. This time they were frozen away, and after just two treatments, I got rid of them - hopefully forever. I tell this story to stress that warts are not always benign, and you cannot take for granted that they will disappear of themselves. I think that judging from the OP, it is reasonable to believe that the warts were indeed removed by the "homoeopathic" ointment, but knowing homoeopathy, I doubt that this was actually homoeopathy. For the general populace, homoeopathy is a very good brand, and I have seen stuff sold as homoeopathic that was just herbal. Besides, some homoeopaths also prescribe "homoeopathic" remedies that are undiluted mother tincture (that is when they only want a weak effect!), and this could also have some effect.
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

25th July 2006, 06:12 AM	#14
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	@steenkh: I know whereof you speak. [squeam alert! ickiness ahead; read spoiler only if not eating, and maybe not then] When young I had bad plantar warts -- tough, dead skin build-up on the plantar (treading) surface of the big toe on each foot. Nothing got rid of them. So I resorted to surgery... with a "hot knife," a soldering iron with a holder and X-acto blade where the top would be. The odor of burning flesh wasn't terribly pleasant but it didn't hurt much. More importantly it got rid of the warts, apparently permanently. I don't know whether plantar warts are supposed to be viral in nature.

25th July 2006, 07:46 AM	#15
Badly Shaved Monkey Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Outside a banana and far from a razor Posts: 5,262	Originally Posted by jkl2000 Long-story-short: using this remedy, my son's warts were completely gone after taking the remedy for less than two weeks. And these warts had stuck around for several months. The short answer is that your story provides no evidence for or against homeopathy. It is for a whole host of other reasons that we can state that the only thing that did not help the warts go away was the homeopathic remedy. However, that is not very emotionally satisfying. You still have the personal experience of a problem that had persisted for months going away quite soon after you started your homeopathic remedy. Here are the questions you should ask yourself; If they hadn't gone away, would you have been starting a thread to tell us of that failure? Let's say, no. Would dozens of other people who also had no apparently successful result start threads to tell us that. Also, probably no. So against your story of apparent success, there is an uncountable and unaccounted number of obvious failures. This is the difficulty of coincidence. To the person on the receiving end of the fluke outcome it feels like more than a coincidence, but looked at from outside it does not. Did you tell anyone today about how, amazingly, you did not meet an old school friend parking their car yesterday when you hadn't seen them for 20 years? Our lives are surrounded by a near-infinity of amazing coincidences that might have happened, but just don't. We only tell people about the ones that do. To put it another way, someone has to win the lottery. It's just unlikely to be yourself. Also, think why there are so many 'proven' wart cures littering folk medicine. It's because warts go away on their own and people give the credit to whatever patented tonic or wisewoman's remedy they are taking at the time. p.s. if it wasn't warts but molluscum contagiosum then "Individual lesions of molluscum contagiosum usually disappear within about 2 - 3 months. Complete disappearance of all lesions generally occurs within about 6 - 18 months." and the story is even less remarkable given that the prior history was already several months
	__________________ "i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.

25th July 2006, 08:03 AM	#16
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	Did you know that applying duct tape to a wart is actually more effective than freezing it? Yes, duct tape. I couldn't access the actual article, but here's a link describing the study and its findings. http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030201/tips/8.html The theory is that the duct tape stimulates an immune response at the site and "directs attention", if you will, to the wart. I just want to know who came up with the study.
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	__________________ "I think Katana is as big of a perv as the rest of us." - Dragonrock "The rationality was there, and clear and concise. The condescention was hinted at and was like french onion dip on the perfect potato chip. Tasted like woo smackdown." - Fowlsound (aka Ducky, darnit) "Katana is one quick shut-yo-mouth!" - JonnyFive StopSylviaBrowne

25th July 2006, 09:16 AM	#17
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	Duct tape also makes great prom dresses and suits!

25th July 2006, 09:18 AM	#18
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	jkl, Did the posts above answer your questions? Edit: For the record, I originally thought homeopathy was herbal medicine too.
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

25th July 2006, 09:29 AM	#19
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	I'd like to know the name of the remedy. It would be interesting to find whether it's homeopathic or just herbal.

25th July 2006, 09:29 AM	#20
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	Originally Posted by Meffy Duct tape also makes great prom dresses and suits! Does it leave you hairless when you disrobe? Good deal!
Katana Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4,894	__________________ "I think Katana is as big of a perv as the rest of us." - Dragonrock "The rationality was there, and clear and concise. The condescention was hinted at and was like french onion dip on the perfect potato chip. Tasted like woo smackdown." - Fowlsound (aka Ducky, darnit) "Katana is one quick shut-yo-mouth!" - JonnyFive StopSylviaBrowne

25th July 2006, 09:34 AM	#21
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	No no -- not I! I prefer to keep my fur. I wrote a limerick or two about duct tape promwear a while back but have lost 'em. Ah well. http://www.ducktapeclub.com/contests/prom/ http://www.octanecreative.com/ducttape/fashion/prom/ http://www.octanecreative.com/ductta...n/fashion.html

25th July 2006, 09:44 AM	#22
Dave1001 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,717	Originally Posted by kittykatkarma Something like the Snake Oil Doctors of old... It's really scary too. There was a period of time when I did not have insurance and my son's meds cannot be generic and run upwards of $150 US Dollars per month. If I were of lesser intellect and skepticism, a $35 dollar a month cure all could have been tempting. Makes you wonder what the un-reported harm has been done. or the eugenic benefit?!
Dave1001 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,717

25th July 2006, 09:46 AM	#23
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	Dave, those two words do NOT belong together.

25th July 2006, 10:24 AM	#24
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Originally Posted by Dave1001 or the eugenic benefit?! Ignorance is not genetic.
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

25th July 2006, 10:33 AM	#25
Chris Haynes Perfectly Poisonous Person Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West Posts: 4,205	Originally Posted by Meffy ... I don't know whether plantar warts are supposed to be viral in nature. Yes, they are: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/plantar-warts/DS00509 "Plantar warts are noncancerous skin growths on the soles of your feet caused by the human papillomavirus (HPV), which enters your body through tiny cuts and breaks in your skin. Plantar warts often develop beneath pressure points in your feet, such as the heels or balls of your feet." Yes, some warts need to be surgically removed when they are bothersome. My son had warts, but they did not bother him. But then my daughter had some on her toe that hurt. So I brought both of them in to the doctor. My son's warts had already disappeared (making the appointment mush have been the cure!)... and the doctor had to shave some of daughter's wart to make it easier for her to walk. They are still a virus, and your reaction is to them is often based on your immune system. So if the system is stressed, the can occur. I also notice they are HPV... I wonder if the new vaccines would help (I guess it is different varieties of HPV in the vaccine!).
	__________________ I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

25th July 2006, 11:35 AM	#26
Meffy Anthropomorphic Skunk Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Unincorporated Territory of Croatan Posts: 4,232	@HCN: Thanks. So far my tendency to perform mini-surgeries on myself (the warts, removal of small subcutaneous cysts, etc.) hasn't got me in trouble. My immune system is plenty strong, which helps there too.

26th July 2006, 09:11 AM	#27
Bowser Thinker Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 157	jkl, experiences such as you had, repeated numerous times for various conditions which are not all self-limiting, is what does eventually turn hard skeptics into believers. I know for absolute fact that homeopathy is real. I will never be able to "prove" it to any of the professional skeptics on this board, but that doesn't matter to me. Of course, it is very dangerous (especially on this forum) to suggest that maybe "some" homeopathy is real, because one you are past that hurdle, it is just disingenuous to say it only sometimes works. Either homeopathy as a principle works or it doesn't. The BSMs say never, ever, ever, at least not in a way that can't be explained by placebo or passage of time. Homeopathy is just a matter of matching the right remedy to the right situation. If that doesn't work, it is invariably a reflection of the limitations of the prescriber, not the potential medicine. The principles are simple, but sometimes very difficult to put into practice. As others have mentioned, homeopathy is not herbalism. Some remedies are made from plants, but some are animal or mineral. It does not need to have an herbal base to be homeopathic.
Bowser Thinker Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 157

26th July 2006, 09:26 AM	#28
elaine Killer Squirrel Killer Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Denver Posts: 4,168	Originally Posted by Bowser jkl, experiences such as you had, repeated numerous times for various conditions which are not all self-limiting, is what does eventually turn hard skeptics into believers. I know for absolute fact that homeopathy is real. I will never be able to "prove" it to any of the professional skeptics on this board, but that doesn't matter to me. Of course, it is very dangerous (especially on this forum) to suggest that maybe "some" homeopathy is real, because one you are past that hurdle, it is just disingenuous to say it only sometimes works. Either homeopathy as a principle works or it doesn't. The BSMs say never, ever, ever, at least not in a way that can't be explained by placebo or passage of time. Homeopathy is just a matter of matching the right remedy to the right situation. If that doesn't work, it is invariably a reflection of the limitations of the prescriber, not the potential medicine. The principles are simple, but sometimes very difficult to put into practice. As others have mentioned, homeopathy is not herbalism. Some remedies are made from plants, but some are animal or mineral. It does not need to have an herbal base to be homeopathic. Bowser, It's only dangerous on this forum to make claims such as "some homeopathy is real" because we require you to back up such assertions. I have no problem with you believing in homeopathy. But to come to this forum and say things like, you would never be able to prove it to "professional skeptics", is a cop-out, and leads me to believe that you don't have sufficient evidence to back-up your claims. For the record, I come from a place as being a former believer in and user of chiropractors, homeopathy and psychics. So yes, I am capable of changing my mind as suitable evidence is presented to me.
	Last edited by elaine; 26th July 2006 at 09:36 AM.

26th July 2006, 09:28 AM	#29
elaine Killer Squirrel Killer Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Denver Posts: 4,168	double post
	Last edited by elaine; 26th July 2006 at 09:35 AM.

26th July 2006, 09:30 AM	#30
Kaarjuus Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 252	Originally Posted by Bowser I know for absolute fact that homeopathy is real. I will never be able to "prove" it to any of the professional skeptics on this board, but that doesn't matter to me. Err.. I don't think anybody here needs proof that homeopathy is real. Homeopathy is very real. It is in-your-face real. Homeopathy can be seen everywhere. It exists. That is unquestionable. It just doesn't work. Quote: The BSMs say never, ever, ever, at least not in a way that can't be explained by placebo or passage of time. Who are BSMs? Quote: Homeopathy is just a matter of matching the right remedy to the right situation. If that doesn't work, it is invariably a reflection of the limitations of the prescriber, not the potential medicine. So.. the only problem with homeopathy not working so far is that the prescribers are limited? If only there was a real homeopath out there who could match the remedy properly. Alas, when will such a person come forth..
Kaarjuus Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 252

26th July 2006, 09:40 AM	#31
Psiload Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,105	Originally Posted by Bowser *snip* If that doesn't work, it is invariably a reflection of the limitations of the prescriber, not the potential medicine. The principles are simple, but sometimes very difficult to put into practice.*snip* If homeopathy doesn't work in a "one size fits all" manner, then why is it sold that way? http://www.helios.co.uk/hh.html#AE Quote: Helios Homoeopathic Remedy Kits are unique and are ideal for newcomers and patients, as well as the more experienced users of homeopathy. Each kit contains a range of remedies which are useful in treating the most common home ailments and many first aid situations. Each kit comes with its own comprehensive, self-prescribing guide
Psiload Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,105	__________________ You're not the boss of me.

26th July 2006, 09:56 AM	#32
steenkh Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 3,468	Originally Posted by Bowser The principles are simple, but sometimes very difficult to put into practice. It seems only possible to put to practice when doing nothing would have been just as effective. Do you have any thoughts on why homeopathy consistently fails when controlled against placebo? Quote: As others have mentioned, homeopathy is not herbalism. Some remedies are made from plants, but some are animal or mineral. It does not need to have an herbal base to be homeopathic. Some remedies are made from moonlight, and other remedies are made from gamma-radiation. In any case, what really matters is that you believe what it says on the label, because until now, no homoeopath have claimed to be able to distinguish a bottle of homoeopathic remedy from a bottle of the corresponding pure solvent.
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

26th July 2006, 09:58 AM	#33
steenkh Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 3,468	Originally Posted by Kaarjuus Who are BSMs? Probably people like Badly Shaved Monkey, a prominent anti-homoeopath vet on this forum.
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

26th July 2006, 10:14 AM	#34
DaveW Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 340	Originally Posted by Meffy @steenkh: I know whereof you speak. [squeam alert! ickiness ahead; read spoiler only if not eating, and maybe not then] When young I had bad plantar warts -- tough, dead skin build-up on the plantar (treading) surface of the big toe on each foot. Nothing got rid of them. So I resorted to surgery... with a "hot knife," a soldering iron with a holder and X-acto blade where the top would be. The odor of burning flesh wasn't terribly pleasant but it didn't hurt much. More importantly it got rid of the warts, apparently permanently. I don't know whether plantar warts are supposed to be viral in nature. I had a bad case of plantar warts a few years ago. Had them for a while, really, but only started to bother me a couple of years ago, so I finally started treatment on them. Tried the nitrogen freeze, the duct tape, the special wart bandages, etc. Nothing to this point made any progress. Finally got to a foot doctor, and he ended up burning them...but not with nitrogen. I don't know what the stuff was, but it came in a little bottle, burned more than nitrogen (feeling wise), and did the trick (after several treatments). This stuff was supposedly from some kind of beetle! (Based on a chemical from the beetle at least.) P.S. The beetle stuff made some nasty blisters on my feet for a few days after each treatment, but after several years of getting nowhere, I was happy to endure that to get rid of the warts!
DaveW Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 340

26th July 2006, 10:19 AM	#35
Magic 8 Ball Student Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 47	Originally Posted by jkl2000 I just read James' comments for the week, and I was a little surprised to see him coming down on the entire realm of homeopathic medicine. I'm very much a skeptic, and a long-time fan of James' work. For the most part, when I hear of homeopathy, I do sort of cringe. And I admit I'm not familiar with everything "homeopathy" includes. But I live in NYC, and these little tubes of homeopathic remedies are available in lots of healthfood stores and pharmacies all over town. A couple of years ago my son had a problem with warts on his chest. His doctor said it was quite common, and prescribed an ointment that is apparently prescribed commonly for warts these days. It was extremely expensive, and did next to nothing to help. A friend told us to try a specific homeopathic remedy, so I got it at one of the health food stores. The guy who worked there said people had had a lot of success using it to cure warts. Long-story-short: using this remedy, my son's warts were completely gone after taking the remedy for less than two weeks. And these warts had stuck around for several months. Now of course, I can't prove it was the remedy that did it, but I don't think it's that unlikely that an herbal remedy might help with something like that. After all, I believe the ointment that the doctor prescribed and which was made by some major pharmaceutical company was largely plant-derived. So I'm wondering if James and other skeptics are totally sceptical of these herbal remedies? I also saw that in the context of his comments on that "camp" that taught dowsing, etc. James was putting down yoga and meditation. At least, he seemed to be. I was surprised that James would appear to be putting down the entire "disciplines" of yoga and meditation, which seem to be pretty universally accepted as having at least some positive values to people. I don't think people are really making unrealistic claims about the benefits of yoga or meditation. Are they? I wouldn't lump all homeopathic medications together. In fact, I wouldn't lump all FDA approved medications together either. The human body is very complex and "medications" that work for some people often don't work for others. My suggestion is to research anything you are about to try from a scientific point of view (ignoring testimonials as much as possible). You should also keep in mind that the body is very good at healing itself and you should never dismiss "coincidence."
Magic 8 Ball Student Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 47