Kerry On Lebanon: "If I Was President, This Wouldn't Have Happened."

BPSCG · 24th July 2006, 11:33 AM

Quote:

"If I was (sic) president, this wouldn't have happened," said Kerry during a noon stop at Honest John's bar and grill in Detroit's Cass Corridor.

No word on how much he'd had to drink.

Quote:

Bush has been so concentrated on the war in Iraq that other Middle East tension arose as a result, he said.

"The president has been so absent on diplomacy when it comes to issues affecting the Middle East," Kerry said. "We're going to have a lot of ground to make up (in 2008) because of it."

...

Hezbollah guerillas should have been targeted with other terrorist organizations, such as al-Qaida and the Taliban, which operate in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Kerry said. However, Bush, has focused military strength on Iraq.

"This is about American security and Bush has failed. He has made it so much worse because of his lack of reality in going into Iraq.…We have to destroy Hezbollah," he said.

Link.

So if I understand correctly, if Kerry had been elected, Israel wouldn't be invading Lebanon to destroy Hezbollah right now because we would have already done it instead of invading Iraq.

shecky · 24th July 2006, 11:41 AM

If Bush hadn't concentrated so much resources on Iraq, I suspect we might have some power to fight some real problems. He makes a good point that's being echoed by growing numbers of conservatives.

Upchurch · 24th July 2006, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

No word on how much he'd had to drink.
Link.

So if I understand correctly, if Kerry had been elected, Israel wouldn't be invading Lebanon to destroy Hezbollah right now because we would have already done it instead of invading Iraq.

My head hurts. I think I'm going to move to Canada.

Jocko · 24th July 2006, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by shecky

If Bush hadn't concentrated so much resources on Iraq, I suspect we might have some power to fight some real problems. He makes a good point that's being echoed by growing numbers of conservatives.

We've got 100,000 troops in a (semi) friendly nation that borders Syria AND Iran. Looks to me like we're already more than halfway to solving "the real problems."

headscratcher4 · 24th July 2006, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Jocko

We've got 100,000 troops in a (semi) friendly nation that borders Syria AND Iran. Looks to me like we're already more than halfway to solving "the real problems."

Because we've done so well "solving" the problems in the country where those troops are located?

Considering how well they managed the invasion of Iraq, calmed it, won the peace, ended the sectarian violence, created a public largely happy and favorable to US influence, a working democracy, a functioning economy, etc. It should be a cake-walk for this Administration.

I can already see the "Mission Accomplished II" press event.....

Jocko · 24th July 2006, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

Because we've done so well "solving" the problems in the country where those troops are located?

Considering how well they managed the invasion of Iraq, calmed it, won the peace, ended the sectarian violence, created a public largely happy and favorable to US influence, a working democracy, a functioning economy, etc. It should be a cake-walk for this Administration.

I can already see the "Mission Accomplished II" press event.....

That's because you assume the next expedition will give a rat's @$$ about nation building. It won't.

BPSCG · 24th July 2006, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

It should be a cake-walk for this Administration.

Are you saying it would be for a Kerry administration?

ImaginalDisc · 24th July 2006, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Are you saying it would be for a Kerry administration?

At least Kerry would most likely forstall victory parties on the decks of aircraft carriers until after the war is over.

senorpogo · 24th July 2006, 12:16 PM

Kind of funny

http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2295

Quote:

In related news, as hostilities along the Lebanon border approached the two-week mark, the crisis was officially added to the list of “bad things that would not have happened during a John Kerry presidency.

BPSCG · 24th July 2006, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by senorpogo

Kind of funny

http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2295

Gotta love scrappleface.

headscratcher4 · 24th July 2006, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Jocko

That's because you assume the next expedition will give a rat's @$$ about nation building. It won't.

Yes, but it will still be the same winners calling the shots. Should give you confidence...I know it does me. Certainly, because they couldn't get one mission right doesn't exclude them from a second, third or even fourth chance...after all, they've got two years left and we've got lots of troops left over....

Tailgater · 24th July 2006, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

At least Kerry would most likely forstall victory parties on the decks of aircraft carriers until after the war is over.

Are we talking about the same guy that rode in on a swiftboat for a grand entrance?

headscratcher4 · 24th July 2006, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Are you saying it would be for a Kerry administration?

Well, it is kinda difficult to see how he could have been any worse. Bush has left us with increasingly limited military options and if your only solution is a military one, than you are screwed...especially if you are tied down in other places...but, I forget, the Iraqi army is standing up...any day now, last throes, etc.

ImaginalDisc · 24th July 2006, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Tailgater

Are we talking about the same guy that rode in on a swiftboat for a grand entrance?

Are you being figurative, or literal? I don't recall him actually doing that.

BPSCG · 24th July 2006, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

Well, it is kinda difficult to see how he could have been any worse.

Never mind that. How would he have done it better? Keeping in mind Kerry said, "We have to destroy Hezbollah." How would he have accomplished this feat? Who does he mean when he says "we"? U.S. troops? Since the Israelis are doing the job by themselves right now, how would he have done it with less loss of U.S. lives?

BPSCG · 24th July 2006, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Tailgater

Are we talking about the same guy that rode in on a swiftboat for a grand entrance?

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Are you being figurative, or literal? I don't recall him actually doing that.

Careful, Tailgater - ID is notoriously literal-minded.

ImaginalDisc · 24th July 2006, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Never mind that. How would he have done it better? Keeping in mind Kerry said, "We have to destroy Hezbollah." How would he have accomplished this feat? Who does he mean when he says "we"? U.S. troops? Since the Israelis are doing the job by themselves right now, how would he have done it with less loss of U.S. lives?

Gee, Israel's been pretty good at surgical strikes by highly trained and dedicated professionals in the past. See: Entebbe. Working with the Lebbanese goverment to swoop in and capture the Hezbullah senior staff a la Columbia might have been an option Kerry considered rather than letting Israel burn a field to kill a snake.

Jocko · 24th July 2006, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

At least Kerry would most likely forstall victory parties on the decks of aircraft carriers until after the war is over.

Yes, because everyone knows that scene was responsible for every foreign policy problem and not simply a reflexive talking point for rabid Bush haters who prefer emphaisizing a metaphor over dealing with messier realities.

Tailgater · 24th July 2006, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Are you being figurative, or literal? I don't recall him actually doing that.

I'm trying to find the link in the sea of swiftboat junk. Yes, during the '04 election he rode in with some of his vet buddies down a river (Boston maybe) to a rally to re-enact his missions in VN. It was hilarious. Tryin to find video or pic of it.

ImaginalDisc · 24th July 2006, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Jocko

Yes, because everyone knows that scene was responsible for every foreign policy problem and not simply a reflexive talking point for rabid Bush haters who prefer emphaisizing a metaphor over dealing with messier realities.

Interesting. I thought that officially declaring a war to be over and throwing a victory party to close it might actually reflect some aspect of the direction he wished to take his foreign policy in.

Edit: Tailgater, please do find it. I'm having trouble, but there's no shortage of blogs and drivel on the subject of his military record from all sides of the political continuum.

headscratcher4 · 24th July 2006, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Never mind that. How would he have done it better? Keeping in mind Kerry said, "We have to destroy Hezbollah." How would he have accomplished this feat? Who does he mean when he says "we"? U.S. troops? Since the Israelis are doing the job by themselves right now, how would he have done it with less loss of U.S. lives?

I concede to your fair points...

Jocko · 24th July 2006, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Interesting. I thought that officially declaring a war to be over and throwing a victory party to close it might actually reflect some aspect of the direction he wished to take his foreign policy in.

A victory party? Last I remember, it was a banner behind an address. No streamers. No hats. No girls popping out of cakes. Are you sure about "victory party"?

Or are you holding Bush responsible for your own misinterpretation of a simple TV image?

senorpogo · 24th July 2006, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Gee, Israel's been pretty good at surgical strikes by highly trained and dedicated professionals in the past. See: Entebbe. Working with the Lebbanese goverment to swoop in and capture the Hezbullah senior staff a la Columbia might have been an option Kerry considered rather than letting Israel burn a field to kill a snake.

So he'd work with the Lebanese government? The same Lebanese government that's headed by Prime Minister Fouad Siniora?

The guy who said - "Lebanon will not sign any peace agreement with Israel even after the liberation of the Shebaa Farms from Israeli occupation and the release of our prisoners in Israel."

The guy who considers Hezballoh "effective in empowering Lebanon to get rid of the Israeli occupation."

Kerry would have convinced this guy to let Israel and the US come into Lebanon and capture the leaders of Hezballoh?

ImaginalDisc · 24th July 2006, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Jocko

A victory party? Last I remember, it was a banner behind an address. No streamers. No hats. No girls popping out of cakes. Are you sure about "victory party"?

Or are you holding Bush responsible for your own misinterpretation of a simple TV image?

Excuse me, presidents (with the possible exception of Kennedey) seldom throw parties with streamers and nubile women bursting out of cakes regardless of the occasion at which they deliver speeches regarding the course of a war. Your riposte hits a strawman. It's as much of a victory party as you could expect from a president.

headscratcher4 · 24th July 2006, 01:03 PM

It seems to me that the whole discussion is a diversion...the argument seems to be...thank god we dodged the Kerry bullet even as we're being run-over by the Bush train.

In the end, its Bush's watch -- even if he can't or won't do much. The prospect of Bush and Co., however, coming up with any clever ideas seems a tad far fetched given their history.

JPK · 24th July 2006, 01:11 PM

Good afternoon.
I'm sure I missed it, but I do not recall Hezballoh being one of the issues that Mr. Kerry talked about durring his previous election run. Can anyone provide a link to a quote from Mr. Kerry durring a debate or even a speech?
JPK

DaChew · 24th July 2006, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Jocko

A victory party? Last I remember, it was a banner behind an address. No streamers. No hats. No girls popping out of cakes. Are you sure about "victory party"?

Or are you holding Bush responsible for your own misinterpretation of a simple TV image?

I was under the impression that the Mission Accomplished banner was strung across the USS Abraham Lincoln which was returning to its based and had, in fact, accomplished its mission.

In rereading Bush's speech it appears that he was most prophetic and not in any way under the delusion that the entire war had been won. "In his speech to the troops Thursday night Bush will thank the U.S. military for their efforts in Iraq. "Your courage -- your willingness to face danger for your country and for each other -- made this day possible," according to excerpts of the Bush speech released in advance. "The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time but it is worth every effort. Our coalition will stay until our work is done."

Jocko · 24th July 2006, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Excuse me, presidents (with the possible exception of Kennedey) seldom throw parties with streamers and nubile women bursting out of cakes regardless of the occasion at which they deliver speeches regarding the course of a war. Your riposte hits a strawman. It's as much of a victory party as you could expect from a president.

Strawman? Repeating your assessment of that hackneyed meme as a "victory party" is a STRAWMAN? Wrong.

If I had disputed that it was a Bar Mitzvah, THAT would be a strawman. Trapping you in your own words is not a strawman.

It's a victory party.

Jocko · 24th July 2006, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by DaChew

I was under the impression that the Mission Accomplished banner was strung across the USS Abraham Lincoln which was returning to its based and had, in fact, accomplished its mission.

In rereading Bush's speech it appears that he was most prophetic and not in any way under the delusion that the entire war had been won. "In his speech to the troops Thursday night Bush will thank the U.S. military for their efforts in Iraq. "Your courage -- your willingness to face danger for your country and for each other -- made this day possible," according to excerpts of the Bush speech released in advance. "The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time but it is worth every effort. Our coalition will stay until our work is done."

Don't confuse them with facts, context and texture. You'll just make them angrier. They'd rather live by the rule that a picture is worth two words.

Tailgater · 24th July 2006, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by cbs news coverage of DNC in Boston

Kerry made a splashy entrance to the convention city aboard a white ferry decorated with red, white and blue bunting that lumbered across Boston's inner harbor, flanked by Coast Guard speed boats mounted with machine guns. In 1773, American colonists dumped tea into the harbor to protest a British tax, an incident that led to the outbreak of the American Revolution two years later.

The ferry cruised past the Fleet Center convention site to the Charlestown Navy Yard as Kerry stood shoulder-to-shoulder with a dozen members of the Navy swift boat he commanded in Vietnam, along with Jim Rassmann, a Special Forces soldier whose life Kerry saved. Bruce Springsteen's "No Surrender" blared from speakers as the ferry pulled into the dock.

"Bruce Springsteen has it right. No retreat. No surrender. We are taking this fight to the country, and we are going to win back our democracy and our future," Kerry told the crowd greeting his arrival at the navy yard.

I give up. Any search for boats or election coverage related to kerry is endless. Small mention here in a bigger CBS news article. Can't remember if he was wearing his Nam threads or not. He did something simlar in a refurbed swiftboat that was at smaller event. I think he dropped it due to the heat from the swiftboat vets.

DaChew · 24th July 2006, 01:22 PM

Anyway, back on topic - the possible 08' Democrat Presidential Candidate's delusions - Using the same logic I claim this:

If I had been the Democrat Presidential candidate in 04', not only would I have won, I would have solved world hunger, I'd be married to Jessicas Alba and Simpson simultaneously and I'd have solved all of our energy problems by inventing a free energy machine (well, free to me. You all would be paying through the nose for it - but slightly less than gasoline to make it worthwhile)

Oh, and I'd have deleted Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Quaida and Ashley Simpson by now as well.

Apollyon · 24th July 2006, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by DaChew

Anyway, back on topic - the possible 08' Democrat Presidential Candidate's delusions - Using the same logic I claim this:

If I had been the Democrat Presidential candidate in 04', not only would I have won, I would have solved world hunger, I'd be married to Jessicas Alba and Simpson simultaneously and I'd have solved all of our energy problems by inventing a free energy machine (well, free to me. You all would be paying through the nose for it - but slightly less than gasoline to make it worthwhile)

Oh, and I'd have deleted Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Quaida and Ashley Simpson by now as well.

Paris Hilton would still be a virgin and Kim Jong il would be performing Kabuki 7 nights a week at Tokyo Disney Seas.

daredelvis · 24th July 2006, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Jocko

Don't confuse them with facts, context and texture. You'll just make them angrier. They'd rather live by the rule that a picture is worth two words.

Facts, context and texture is what it was all about. The President landing a plane is about as close to "girls jumping out of a cake" as you will ever get.

Daredelvis
Not to confuse you with facts.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0031029-2.html

Q He also said that his advance team hadn't had any part in it. And you're now -- you're now saying that you actually did create the banner.

MR. McCLELLAN: That's not what he said. That is not what he said. Look back at what he said. We said all along, and we said previously that it was the idea -- that the idea of the banner -- for the banner was suggested by those on board on ship. And they asked --

Q So who ordered --

MR. McCLELLAN: And they asked -- they asked if we could help take care of the production of the banner. And we more than happy to do so because this is a very nice way to pay tribute to our sailors and aviators and men and women in the military who are on board that ship for a job well done.

Q Scott, just to follow up , did you not have anything to do, though, with the placement of the banner? I know the White House often makes sure that things are placed right, behind the President so that when it's on the TV --

MR. McCLELLAN: Of course, our advance people work closely with people at event sites when the President is participating in an event. But again, this was an idea that was suggested by those on board the ship.

Q Scott, knowing what we know now, that the Navy, apparently they say that they did request this banner, that what the President said was technically accurate, but would you concede that the gist of what he was saying was misleading because it left the impression for -- that he was saying that the White House didn't have anything to do it. You don't think it was misleading?

MR. McCLELLAN: No, that's not what he -- no, that's not what he said.

BPSCG · 24th July 2006, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

I concede to your fair points...

Damn it, stop being reasonable.

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

It seems to me that the whole discussion is a diversion...the argument seems to be...thank god we dodged the Kerry bullet even as we're being run-over by the Bush train.

In the end, its Bush's watch -- even if he can't or won't do much. The prospect of Bush and Co., however, coming up with any clever ideas seems a tad far fetched given their history.

That's better.

No, the actual issue here is that we have the guy who lost the '04 election (did you know he served in Viet Nam, BTW?) saying how he would have done a better job destroying Hezbollah than the current administration even though the current administration has done very nicely by letting the Israelis do the dirty work. Now the current administration is coming in after Hezbollah has gotten bloodied and is asking, "Had enough? Then make peace with Israel." Seems pretty diplomatic to me.

I guess what Kerry is saying is that since "we have to destroy Hezbollah," he'd have gone "cowboy" and pitched in to help the Israelis.

Or something.

marksman · 24th July 2006, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

I guess what Kerry is saying is that since "we have to destroy Hezbollah," he'd have gone "cowboy" and pitched in to help the Israelis.

You know, he still can. IDF might appreciate another grunt volunteer for the front lines.

geni · 24th July 2006, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

I guess what Kerry is saying is that since "we have to destroy Hezbollah," he'd have gone "cowboy" and pitched in to help the Israelis.

No need. If you are working on a slightly longer timescale than Israel and are not Israel you suppy funding and support to the centeral goverment and the non Hezbollah factions. This reduces the power vaccume and weakens Hezbollah in short order.

BPSCG · 24th July 2006, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by geni

No need. If you are working on a slightly longer timescale than Israel and are not Israel you suppy funding and support to the centeral goverment and the non Hezbollah factions. This reduces the power vaccume and weakens Hezbollah in short order.

Yes, as we all know, Hezbollah has no rich sugar daddies giving them money and arms. That's why they've been collecting Coca Cola bottles and recycling them for spending money.

Tailgater · 24th July 2006, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by geni

No need. If you are working on a slightly longer timescale than Israel and are not Israel you suppy funding and support to the centeral goverment and the non Hezbollah factions. This reduces the power vaccume and weakens Hezbollah in short order.

Funding for what and support for what?

geni · 24th July 2006, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Yes, as we all know, Hezbollah has no rich sugar daddies giving them money and arms. That's why they've been collecting Coca Cola bottles and recycling them for spending money.

Are you seriously suggesting that the US can't outfund Iran and Syria?

Jocko · 24th July 2006, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by geni

Are you seriously suggesting that the US can't outfund Iran and Syria?

Don't look now, but your goalposts just moved.

24th July 2006, 11:33 AM	#1
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Kerry On Lebanon: "If I Was President, This Wouldn't Have Happened." Quote: "If I was (sic) president, this wouldn't have happened," said Kerry during a noon stop at Honest John's bar and grill in Detroit's Cass Corridor. No word on how much he'd had to drink. Quote: Bush has been so concentrated on the war in Iraq that other Middle East tension arose as a result, he said. "The president has been so absent on diplomacy when it comes to issues affecting the Middle East," Kerry said. "We're going to have a lot of ground to make up (in 2008) because of it." ... Hezbollah guerillas should have been targeted with other terrorist organizations, such as al-Qaida and the Taliban, which operate in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Kerry said. However, Bush, has focused military strength on Iraq. "This is about American security and Bush has failed. He has made it so much worse because of his lack of reality in going into Iraq.…We have to destroy Hezbollah," he said. Link. So if I understand correctly, if Kerry had been elected, Israel wouldn't be invading Lebanon to destroy Hezbollah right now because *we would have already done it instead of invading Iraq*.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

24th July 2006, 11:50 AM	#4
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Originally Posted by shecky If Bush hadn't concentrated so much resources on Iraq, I suspect we might have some power to fight some real problems. He makes a good point that's being echoed by growing numbers of conservatives. We've got 100,000 troops in a (semi) friendly nation that borders Syria AND Iran. Looks to me like we're already more than halfway to solving "the real problems."
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

24th July 2006, 11:57 AM	#5
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	Originally Posted by Jocko We've got 100,000 troops in a (semi) friendly nation that borders Syria AND Iran. Looks to me like we're already more than halfway to solving "the real problems." Because we've done so well "solving" the problems in the country where those troops are located? Considering how well they managed the invasion of Iraq, calmed it, won the peace, ended the sectarian violence, created a public largely happy and favorable to US influence, a working democracy, a functioning economy, etc. It should be a cake-walk for this Administration. I can already see the "Mission Accomplished II" press event.....
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

24th July 2006, 12:06 PM	#6
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 Because we've done so well "solving" the problems in the country where those troops are located? Considering how well they managed the invasion of Iraq, calmed it, won the peace, ended the sectarian violence, created a public largely happy and favorable to US influence, a working democracy, a functioning economy, etc. It should be a cake-walk for this Administration. I can already see the "Mission Accomplished II" press event..... That's because you assume the next expedition will give a rat's @$$ about nation building. It won't.
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

24th July 2006, 12:12 PM	#7
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 It should be a cake-walk for this Administration. Are you saying it would be for a Kerry administration?
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

24th July 2006, 11:41 AM	#2
shecky Master Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: Home of the Homeless Posts: 2,190	If Bush hadn't concentrated so much resources on Iraq, I suspect we might have some power to fight some real problems. He makes a good point that's being echoed by growing numbers of conservatives.

24th July 2006, 11:42 AM	#3
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,428	Originally Posted by BPSCG No word on how much he'd had to drink. Link. So if I understand correctly, if Kerry had been elected, Israel wouldn't be invading Lebanon to destroy Hezbollah right now because *we would have already done it instead of invading Iraq*. My head hurts. I think I'm going to move to Canada.

24th July 2006, 12:14 PM	#8
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by BPSCG Are you saying it would be for a Kerry administration? At least Kerry would most likely forstall victory parties on the decks of aircraft carriers until after the war is over.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

24th July 2006, 12:16 PM	#9
senorpogo Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,094	Kind of funny http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2295 Quote: In related news, as hostilities along the Lebanon border approached the two-week mark, the crisis was officially added to the list of “bad things that would not have happened during a John Kerry presidency.

24th July 2006, 12:19 PM	#10
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by senorpogo Kind of funny http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2295 Gotta love scrappleface.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

24th July 2006, 12:19 PM	#11
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	Originally Posted by Jocko That's because you assume the next expedition will give a rat's @$$ about nation building. It won't. Yes, but it will still be the same winners calling the shots. Should give you confidence...I know it does me. Certainly, because they couldn't get one mission right doesn't exclude them from a second, third or even fourth chance...after all, they've got two years left and we've got lots of troops left over....
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

24th July 2006, 12:20 PM	#12
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc At least Kerry would most likely forstall victory parties on the decks of aircraft carriers until after the war is over. Are we talking about the same guy that rode in on a swiftboat for a grand entrance?
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212

24th July 2006, 12:22 PM	#13
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	Originally Posted by BPSCG Are you saying it would be for a Kerry administration? Well, it is kinda difficult to see how he could have been any worse. Bush has left us with increasingly limited military options and if your only solution is a military one, than you are screwed...especially if you are tied down in other places...but, I forget, the Iraqi army is standing up...any day now, last throes, etc.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

24th July 2006, 12:22 PM	#14
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Tailgater Are we talking about the same guy that rode in on a swiftboat for a grand entrance? Are you being figurative, or literal? I don't recall him actually doing that.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

24th July 2006, 12:27 PM	#15
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 Well, it is kinda difficult to see how he could have been any worse. Never mind that. How would he have done it better? Keeping in mind Kerry said, "We have to destroy Hezbollah." How would he have accomplished this feat? Who does he mean when he says "we"? U.S. troops? Since the Israelis are doing the job by themselves right now, how would he have done it with less loss of U.S. lives?
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

24th July 2006, 12:28 PM	#16
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by Tailgater Are we talking about the same guy that rode in on a swiftboat for a grand entrance? Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc Are you being figurative, or literal? I don't recall him actually doing that. Careful, Tailgater - ID is notoriously literal-minded.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

24th July 2006, 12:30 PM	#17
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by BPSCG Never mind that. How would he have done it better? Keeping in mind Kerry said, "We have to destroy Hezbollah." How would he have accomplished this feat? Who does he mean when he says "we"? U.S. troops? Since the Israelis are doing the job by themselves right now, how would he have done it with less loss of U.S. lives? Gee, Israel's been pretty good at surgical strikes by highly trained and dedicated professionals in the past. See: Entebbe. Working with the Lebbanese goverment to swoop in and capture the Hezbullah senior staff a la Columbia might have been an option Kerry considered rather than letting Israel burn a field to kill a snake.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

24th July 2006, 12:36 PM	#18
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc At least Kerry would most likely forstall victory parties on the decks of aircraft carriers until after the war is over. Yes, because everyone knows that scene was responsible for every foreign policy problem and not simply a reflexive talking point for rabid Bush haters who prefer emphaisizing a metaphor over dealing with messier realities.
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

24th July 2006, 12:38 PM	#20
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Jocko Yes, because everyone knows that scene was responsible for every foreign policy problem and not simply a reflexive talking point for rabid Bush haters who prefer emphaisizing a metaphor over dealing with messier realities. Interesting. I thought that officially declaring a war to be over and throwing a victory party to close it might actually reflect some aspect of the direction he wished to take his foreign policy in. Edit: Tailgater, please do find it. I'm having trouble, but there's no shortage of blogs and drivel on the subject of his military record from all sides of the political continuum.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

24th July 2006, 12:39 PM	#21
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	Originally Posted by BPSCG Never mind that. How would he have done it better? Keeping in mind Kerry said, "We have to destroy Hezbollah." How would he have accomplished this feat? Who does he mean when he says "we"? U.S. troops? Since the Israelis are doing the job by themselves right now, how would he have done it with less loss of U.S. lives? I concede to your fair points...
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

24th July 2006, 12:41 PM	#22
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc Interesting. I thought that officially declaring a war to be over and throwing a victory party to close it might actually reflect some aspect of the direction he wished to take his foreign policy in. A victory party? Last I remember, it was a banner behind an address. No streamers. No hats. No girls popping out of cakes. Are you sure about "victory party"? Or are you holding Bush responsible for your own misinterpretation of a simple TV image?
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

24th July 2006, 12:43 PM	#23
senorpogo Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,094	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc Gee, Israel's been pretty good at surgical strikes by highly trained and dedicated professionals in the past. See: Entebbe. Working with the Lebbanese goverment to swoop in and capture the Hezbullah senior staff a la Columbia might have been an option Kerry considered rather than letting Israel burn a field to kill a snake. So he'd work with the Lebanese government? The same Lebanese government that's headed by Prime Minister Fouad Siniora? The guy who said - "Lebanon will not sign any peace agreement with Israel even after the liberation of the Shebaa Farms from Israeli occupation and the release of our prisoners in Israel." The guy who considers Hezballoh "effective in empowering Lebanon to get rid of the Israeli occupation." Kerry would have convinced this guy to let Israel and the US come into Lebanon and capture the leaders of Hezballoh?

24th July 2006, 12:49 PM	#24
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by Jocko A victory party? Last I remember, it was a banner behind an address. No streamers. No hats. No girls popping out of cakes. Are you sure about "victory party"? Or are you holding Bush responsible for your own misinterpretation of a simple TV image? Excuse me, presidents (with the possible exception of Kennedey) seldom throw parties with streamers and nubile women bursting out of cakes regardless of the occasion at which they deliver speeches regarding the course of a war. Your riposte hits a strawman. It's as much of a victory party as you could expect from a president.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

24th July 2006, 01:03 PM	#25
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	It seems to me that the whole discussion is a diversion...the argument seems to be...thank god we dodged the Kerry bullet even as we're being run-over by the Bush train. In the end, its Bush's watch -- even if he can't or won't do much. The prospect of Bush and Co., however, coming up with any clever ideas seems a tad far fetched given their history.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

24th July 2006, 01:11 PM	#26
JPK Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,178	Good afternoon. I'm sure I missed it, but I do not recall Hezballoh being one of the issues that Mr. Kerry talked about durring his previous election run. Can anyone provide a link to a quote from Mr. Kerry durring a debate or even a speech? JPK
JPK Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,178	__________________ "I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier... A belief's a dangerous thing. People die for it. People kill for it." Rufus, the 13th apostle, Dogma "You can't prove air." Sylvia Browne www.StopSylvia.com John Kardel

24th July 2006, 01:13 PM	#27
DaChew Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,043	Originally Posted by Jocko A victory party? Last I remember, it was a banner behind an address. No streamers. No hats. No girls popping out of cakes. Are you sure about "victory party"? Or are you holding Bush responsible for your own misinterpretation of a simple TV image? I was under the impression that the Mission Accomplished banner was strung across the USS Abraham Lincoln which was returning to its based and had, in fact, accomplished its mission. In rereading Bush's speech it appears that he was most prophetic and not in any way under the delusion that the entire war had been won. "In his speech to the troops Thursday night Bush will thank the U.S. military for their efforts in Iraq. "Your courage -- your willingness to face danger for your country and for each other -- made this day possible," according to excerpts of the Bush speech released in advance. "The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time but it is worth every effort. Our coalition will stay until our work is done."
DaChew Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,043	__________________ I'm not as smart as I think I am. Most people aren't. Except me. Because I know I'm not.

24th July 2006, 01:16 PM	#28
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc Excuse me, presidents (with the possible exception of Kennedey) seldom throw parties with streamers and nubile women bursting out of cakes regardless of the occasion at which they deliver speeches regarding the course of a war. Your riposte hits a strawman. It's as much of a victory party as you could expect from a president. Strawman? Repeating your assessment of that hackneyed meme as a "victory party" is a STRAWMAN? Wrong. If I had disputed that it was a Bar Mitzvah, THAT would be a strawman. Trapping you in your own words is not a strawman. It's a victory party.
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

24th July 2006, 01:18 PM	#29
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Originally Posted by DaChew I was under the impression that the Mission Accomplished banner was strung across the USS Abraham Lincoln which was returning to its based and had, in fact, accomplished its mission. In rereading Bush's speech it appears that he was most prophetic and not in any way under the delusion that the entire war had been won. "In his speech to the troops Thursday night Bush will thank the U.S. military for their efforts in Iraq. "Your courage -- your willingness to face danger for your country and for each other -- made this day possible," according to excerpts of the Bush speech released in advance. "The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time but it is worth every effort. Our coalition will stay until our work is done." Don't confuse them with facts, context and texture. You'll just make them angrier. They'd rather live by the rule that a picture is worth two words.
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

24th July 2006, 01:20 PM	#30
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212	Originally Posted by cbs news coverage of DNC in Boston Kerry made a splashy entrance to the convention city aboard a white ferry decorated with red, white and blue bunting that lumbered across Boston's inner harbor, flanked by Coast Guard speed boats mounted with machine guns. In 1773, American colonists dumped tea into the harbor to protest a British tax, an incident that led to the outbreak of the American Revolution two years later. The ferry cruised past the Fleet Center convention site to the Charlestown Navy Yard as Kerry stood shoulder-to-shoulder with a dozen members of the Navy swift boat he commanded in Vietnam, along with Jim Rassmann, a Special Forces soldier whose life Kerry saved. Bruce Springsteen's "No Surrender" blared from speakers as the ferry pulled into the dock. "Bruce Springsteen has it right. No retreat. No surrender. We are taking this fight to the country, and we are going to win back our democracy and our future," Kerry told the crowd greeting his arrival at the navy yard. I give up. Any search for boats or election coverage related to kerry is endless. Small mention here in a bigger CBS news article. Can't remember if he was wearing his Nam threads or not. He did something simlar in a refurbed swiftboat that was at smaller event. I think he dropped it due to the heat from the swiftboat vets.
Tailgater Illuminator Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,212

24th July 2006, 01:22 PM	#31
DaChew Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,043	Anyway, back on topic - the possible 08' Democrat Presidential Candidate's delusions - Using the same logic I claim this: If I had been the Democrat Presidential candidate in 04', not only would I have won, I would have solved world hunger, I'd be married to Jessicas Alba and Simpson simultaneously and I'd have solved all of our energy problems by inventing a free energy machine (well, free to me. You all would be paying through the nose for it - but slightly less than gasoline to make it worthwhile) Oh, and I'd have deleted Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Quaida and Ashley Simpson by now as well.
DaChew Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,043	__________________ I'm not as smart as I think I am. Most people aren't. Except me. Because I know I'm not.

24th July 2006, 01:32 PM	#32
Apollyon Muse Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Orlando Posts: 942	Originally Posted by DaChew Anyway, back on topic - the possible 08' Democrat Presidential Candidate's delusions - Using the same logic I claim this: If I had been the Democrat Presidential candidate in 04', not only would I have won, I would have solved world hunger, I'd be married to Jessicas Alba and Simpson simultaneously and I'd have solved all of our energy problems by inventing a free energy machine (well, free to me. You all would be paying through the nose for it - but slightly less than gasoline to make it worthwhile) Oh, and I'd have deleted Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Quaida and Ashley Simpson by now as well. Paris Hilton would still be a virgin and Kim Jong il would be performing Kabuki 7 nights a week at Tokyo Disney Seas.

24th July 2006, 01:34 PM	#33
daredelvis Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Houston Posts: 1,876	Originally Posted by Jocko Don't confuse them with facts, context and texture. You'll just make them angrier. They'd rather live by the rule that a picture is worth two words. Facts, context and texture is what it was all about. The President landing a plane is about as close to "girls jumping out of a cake" as you will ever get. Daredelvis Not to confuse you with facts. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0031029-2.html Q He also said that his advance team hadn't had any part in it. And you're now -- you're now saying that you actually did create the banner. MR. McCLELLAN: That's not what he said. That is not what he said. Look back at what he said. We said all along, and we said previously that it was the idea -- that the idea of the banner -- for the banner was suggested by those on board on ship. And they asked -- Q So who ordered -- MR. McCLELLAN: And they asked -- they asked if we could help take care of the production of the banner. And we more than happy to do so because this is a very nice way to pay tribute to our sailors and aviators and men and women in the military who are on board that ship for a job well done. Q Scott, just to follow up , did you not have anything to do, though, with the placement of the banner? I know the White House often makes sure that things are placed right, behind the President so that when it's on the TV -- MR. McCLELLAN: Of course, our advance people work closely with people at event sites when the President is participating in an event. But again, this was an idea that was suggested by those on board the ship. Q Scott, knowing what we know now, that the Navy, apparently they say that they did request this banner, that what the President said was technically accurate, but would you concede that the gist of what he was saying was misleading because it left the impression for -- that he was saying that the White House didn't have anything to do it. You don't think it was misleading? MR. McCLELLAN: No, that's not what he -- no, that's not what he said.

24th July 2006, 01:37 PM	#34
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 I concede to your fair points... Damn it, stop being reasonable. Originally Posted by headscratcher4 It seems to me that the whole discussion is a diversion...the argument seems to be...thank god we dodged the Kerry bullet even as we're being run-over by the Bush train. In the end, its Bush's watch -- even if he can't or won't do much. The prospect of Bush and Co., however, coming up with any clever ideas seems a tad far fetched given their history. That's better. No, the actual issue here is that we have the guy who lost the '04 election (did you know he served in Viet Nam, BTW?) saying how he would have done a better job destroying Hezbollah than the current administration even though the current administration has done very nicely by letting the Israelis do the dirty work. Now the current administration is coming in after Hezbollah has gotten bloodied and is asking, "Had enough? Then make peace with Israel." Seems pretty diplomatic to me. I guess what Kerry is saying is that since "we have to destroy Hezbollah," he'd have gone "cowboy" and pitched in to help the Israelis. Or something.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

24th July 2006, 01:43 PM	#35
marksman Reality Checker Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 5,003	Originally Posted by BPSCG I guess what Kerry is saying is that since "we have to destroy Hezbollah," he'd have gone "cowboy" and pitched in to help the Israelis. You know, he still can. IDF might appreciate another grunt volunteer for the front lines.

24th July 2006, 01:50 PM	#36
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,578	Originally Posted by BPSCG I guess what Kerry is saying is that since "we have to destroy Hezbollah," he'd have gone "cowboy" and pitched in to help the Israelis. No need. If you are working on a slightly longer timescale than Israel and are not Israel you suppy funding and support to the centeral goverment and the non Hezbollah factions. This reduces the power vaccume and weakens Hezbollah in short order.