God hides himself because he wants us to have faith? Must be a recent thing...

[Dark Jaguar]

Okay, I know the "god is silly for this and this and this reason" threads can't hold at these levels (there are a lot), but here's one more I don't think I saw presented earlier.

Christians (and this is the only religion I'm familiar enough with to say this about, but it may apply to others) like to tote that their beliefs require faith, but they all seem to ignore that God always seemed willing to provide evidence in the bible. I mean from the very start God was tossing miracles out left and right whenever someone had a question. The bad logic of a lot of the things God did aside, it showed he was at least willing to provide evidence. He set bushes on fire, carved tablets out of stone himself, turned staves into snakes, parted seas, did healings, turned people into salt, all with the INTENTION of providing evidence he existed.

Jesus did the same thing in the form of all his miracles. He didn't just walk around saying "hey I'm Christ and if you don't believe in me, just take it on faith", he went around healing illnesses, walking on water, turning water to wine (not the same water I think... I don't like foot-wine), killing some fig tree instantly, rising from the dead and showing his disciples his scars before ascending into heaven, and so on.

My point is, when did god decide "you know what, I changed my mind, instead of providing evidence I exist I'll make it look like I don't exist and just tell them they will burn if they don't believe, despite whether they have any reason to believe I exist or not"? It seems like the god of the bible was a lot more reasonable (well, in this one respect) than the god christians go on about the glory of "faith in the most high". And a lot of them do have a romanticism about how no evidence is needed, they love it (well, I was one of them at one point and that's how I thought). Barring how poor some of that evidence actually was, and the fact that the evidence never actually took place anyway, and the fact that other than that god was an allmighty jerk and contradicted that behavior in the bible himself anyway, I have to ask those who are christians here, why is it that god used to provide evidence when it was asked (directly, no nonsense stuff done CLEARLY for the sake of evidence, that bush burning and that walking on water and that staff turned into a snake weren't done for any OTHER reason), but now he doesn't do jack in the way of providing evidence and just "expects us to have blind faith"?

I eagerly await a reply.

[Ausmerican]

Wait eagerly but hold not thy breath.

[Bubo]

God is dead. We killed Him.

[Bruno Putzeys]

Like "the God of the gaps" I consider the crypto-God a sign that scientific observation is making some headway after all. In the ol' days, it was easy to show manifestations of God by interpreting just about anything salient as such. Or to do conjuring tricks.

These days even very religious people realise this is untenable. Of course, instead of them drawing the right conclusion, cognitive dissonance kicks in and they'll literally grab the first excuse that comes to mind. It's funny to see how people hold on to such a last straw when they promote an ad hoc argument to official theology.

It may feel like we're not getting anywhere, but we are. To believers even marginally versed in physics, God is relegated to ever decreasing holes in the theoretical framework. Likewise, lack of overt manifestations of God now has to be explained away by obviously unconvincing arguments. Although believers seem incredibly elastic to hold on to their beliefs as they become more and more remote from reality, the band must snap at some time.

The only believers left will be those utterly devoid of logic or scientific insight. I mean, look at this forum. How many believers in this forum are capable of setting out a cogent argument? And those who are, aren't they the most moderate believers around?

[Raphael]

Originally Posted by Bruno Putzeys

The only believers left will be those utterly devoid of logic or scientific insight.

So that's about what, 4 or 5 billion?

[Bruno Putzeys]

I reckon

Seriously, you're implicitly assuming everyone to have equal access to education and information. If that were the case, the number of true believers would be less. A lot less (I hope).

[DreadNiK]

"Well I guess God was a lot more demonstrative back when he flamboyantly parted the sea" - Bad Religion (everyone should listen to this band, most intelligent political-punk band ever...Greg Graffin, the vocalist, has a Ph.D (I think) in evolutionary biology and corresponds with Dawkins sometimes)

[StewartP]

The xian response would probably be John 12:36-38
Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"

ie God & JC have already given us a shed-load of signs and wonders and STILL we don't believe. What's the point of him giving any more? Have faith in what has already been revealed.

A crock o' sh1te in my opinion

[Bruno Putzeys]

Remarkable synchronicity of the cessation of miracles and the finishing of the bible. As long as the pundits were looking on...

[The Don]

Apparently miracles happen all the time

http://www.mcn.org/1/Miracles/

Quote:

Those who search for signs
will find them...

[Abdul Alhazred]

Alternative explanation: God is fed up and is ignoring us.

Of course some believers would say that God isn't hiding Himself at all and attribute natural distasters to His wrath.

[FireGarden]

Protons are positive and repel each other. Yet the nucleus of the atom does not fly apart. Is that not miracle enough?













(c) Jack Chick

[Bruno Putzeys]

Originally Posted by FireGarden

Protons are positive and repel each other. Yet the nucleus of the atom does not fly apart. Is that not miracle enough?

A gasoline and air mixture is made to detonate inside my car. Yet, my car is not blown to smithereens. A miracle indeed.

[Just thinking]

Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred

Of course some believers would say that God isn't hiding Himself at all and attribute natural distasters to His wrath.

Do you think that line of reasoning is any different today than years long past? I have a strong feeling that that's what happened back then -- then mix well with thousands of years of embellishment.

[Katana]

I think DNA is pretty miraculous.

[FireGarden]

Originally Posted by Bruno Putzeys

A gasoline and air mixture is made to detonate inside my car. Yet, my car is not blown to smithereens. A miracle indeed.

The sun is basically loads of nuclear bombs going off, but we're not dead from the fallout. A genuine miracle.

[Bruno Putzeys]

Originally Posted by Katana

I think DNA is pretty miraculous.

Amazing, yes. Miraculous, no.

[Katana]

Originally Posted by Bruno Putzeys

Amazing, yes. Miraculous, no.

You're right. Miraculous has too many religious connotations. I stand corrected.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally Posted by Just thinking

Do you think that line of reasoning is any different today than years long past? I have a strong feeling that that's what happened back then -- then mix well with thousands of years of embellishment.

Of course.

It's the "God not showing Himself" rationalization that's new.

[KingMerv00]

Many faithful like to claim that if God revealed himself to us, we would lose our free will. We would be forced to follow him because his existance would be so obvious.

Adam and Eve?
Satan?
Sodom?
That stupid pharaoh?

[Abdul Alhazred]

In the case of Pharaoh, the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh.
(Exodus 9:12)

Sweet.

[phildonnia]

Originally Posted by Bruno Putzeys

Remarkable synchronicity of the cessation of miracles and the finishing of the bible. As long as the pundits were looking on...

One theist explanation for this comes from Rv 22:18:

Quote:

If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book...

which some take to mean that this was the end of all divine revelation, including miracles and such.

Of course, this interpretation relies heavily on the belief that "these things" and "this book" refers to the Bible, which did not exist at the time Revelation was written...

[LostAngeles]

Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred

In the case of Pharaoh, the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh.
(Exodus 9:12)

Sweet.

Yeah, what the hell was up with that.

God:"I want the Israelites to be free from Egypt. Moses, go to Pharoh. I got your back."
Moses: "Uh ok." *goes to Pharoh* "Let my people go."
Pharoh: "No."
Moses: "God, Pharoh won't let us go."
God: "Do my magic tricks"
Moses: "OK." *Moses and the Pharoh's magicians have a magic trick battle. Moses wins.*
Pharoh: "Holy Crap! I guess I better..."
*God hardens Pharoh's Heart*
Pharoh: "... not... let... you go."
Moses: "There'll be plagues..."
Pharoh: "Bah. Bring it bitch."
*plague*
Pharoh: "That sucked. I'm gonna..."
*God hardens Pharoh's Heart*
Pharoh: "...keep... the... Israelites..."
*repeat until God gets to kill all the firstborn of Egypt, which was apparently his plan along.*

Quote:

4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Quote:

12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

And then he's not even done after that, because he hardens Pharoh's heart again so that the Pharoh and his soldiers drown in the Red Sea.

What the hell is up with Old Testament Yahweh and why is he such an *******?

[KingMerv00]

Originally Posted by LostAngeles

What the hell is up with Old Testament Yahweh and why is he such an *******?

Maybe Yahweh is an *******. I think Jesus was his rebellious hippie son that He wasn't even proud of.

[LostAngeles]

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

Maybe Yahweh is an *******. I think Jesus was his rebellious hippie son that He wasn't even proud of.

Hence the Passion and Crucifixtion and the using of Yeshua to **** up the world? Kinda fits. If you're a cockwad and your son is down preaching the message of love and goodwill, what better way to deal with it than have him tortured, die in a horrible manner, and then completely pervert the message.

[KingMerv00]

Originally Posted by LostAngeles

Hence the Passion and Crucifixtion and the using of Yeshua to **** up the world? Kinda fits. If you're a cockwad and your son is down preaching the message of love and goodwill, what better way to deal with it than have him tortured, die in a horrible manner, and then completely pervert the message.

Way way way off topic.

Jesus was a carpenter. Did he ever build anything?

[stamenflicker]

Originally Posted by Dark Jaguar

Okay, I know the "god is silly for this and this and this reason" threads can't hold at these levels (there are a lot), but here's one more I don't think I saw presented earlier.

Christians (and this is the only religion I'm familiar enough with to say this about, but it may apply to others) like to tote that their beliefs require faith, but they all seem to ignore that God always seemed willing to provide evidence in the bible. I mean from the very start God was tossing miracles out left and right whenever someone had a question. The bad logic of a lot of the things God did aside, it showed he was at least willing to provide evidence. He set bushes on fire, carved tablets out of stone himself, turned staves into snakes, parted seas, did healings, turned people into salt, all with the INTENTION of providing evidence he existed.

Jesus did the same thing in the form of all his miracles. He didn't just walk around saying "hey I'm Christ and if you don't believe in me, just take it on faith", he went around healing illnesses, walking on water, turning water to wine (not the same water I think... I don't like foot-wine), killing some fig tree instantly, rising from the dead and showing his disciples his scars before ascending into heaven, and so on.

My point is, when did god decide "you know what, I changed my mind, instead of providing evidence I exist I'll make it look like I don't exist and just tell them they will burn if they don't believe, despite whether they have any reason to believe I exist or not"? It seems like the god of the bible was a lot more reasonable (well, in this one respect) than the god christians go on about the glory of "faith in the most high". And a lot of them do have a romanticism about how no evidence is needed, they love it (well, I was one of them at one point and that's how I thought). Barring how poor some of that evidence actually was, and the fact that the evidence never actually took place anyway, and the fact that other than that god was an allmighty jerk and contradicted that behavior in the bible himself anyway, I have to ask those who are christians here, why is it that god used to provide evidence when it was asked (directly, no nonsense stuff done CLEARLY for the sake of evidence, that bush burning and that walking on water and that staff turned into a snake weren't done for any OTHER reason), but now he doesn't do jack in the way of providing evidence and just "expects us to have blind faith"?

I eagerly await a reply.

Well so much for the direct approach, nes pas? I still don't see the point, because if he did all kinds of miracles and such, it wouldn't answer the question as to whether or not is was worthy of such belief.

[KingMerv00]

Originally Posted by stamenflicker

Well so much for the direct approach, nes pas? I still don't see the point, because if he did all kinds of miracles and such, it wouldn't answer the question as to whether or not is was worthy of such belief.

That's not the focus of this thread anyway. Why is the Bible so front-loaded with the cool stuff? Where did all the cool stuff go?

Why is there a negative correlation between the number of miracles and our proficiency with science?

[Dark Jaguar]

That's about right, and more specifically I'm talking about how the bible itself flies in the face of the christian defense that god is intentionally hiding from us so we will "have faith". What prompted the change of heart?

Abdul, Lost, I gotta say that very act of insanity was one of the first questions I started asking myself about. I've never got a good explanation for why god purposefully deprived Pharaoh of free will to actually literally force him to disobey God. That never sat well with me, and the answers I always got were things like "god works in mysterious ways" or "it's in the translation probably...". That didn't settle with me, though at first I just set that question on the "back burner" because I thought "hey I know there's a real answer here". Anyway long story short it was one of the main problems I could never resolve which made me abandon my faith (the other one was finally accepting that "faith" is just an emotionally charged way of saying "I have no evidence at all but I want to think it's true so I do").

Still doesn't help answer this mystery.

[ceo_esq]

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

Way way way off topic.

Jesus was a carpenter. Did he ever build anything?

Actually, the scriptural evidence that Jesus was a carpenter is not very strong. People mostly assume he was because Joseph is unambiguously identified as one. I've seen it suggested that if Jesus did practice carpentry, the biggest demand would have been for boat repair and farm implements.

[ceo_esq]

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

That's not the focus of this thread anyway. Why is the Bible so front-loaded with the cool stuff? Where did all the cool stuff go?

Why is there a negative correlation between the number of miracles and our proficiency with science?

In the latter part of Old Testament history (chronologically speaking), there's actually not much in the way of "cool stuff". I'm speaking from memory here, but I don't recall any miracles or other divine interventions in, say, Nehemiah. The Jesus and the Apostles represented kind of a brief comeback in the miracle department.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally Posted by ceo_esq

In the latter part of Old Testament history (chronologically speaking), there's actually not much in the way of "cool stuff". ...

Unless you count "visions" as miracles.

Then there's the prophet Jonah, but it's not so certain that was meant to be taken as literal history, given the style.

[Dark Jaguar]

Jesus was a carpenter, but the fact of the matter is he wasn't a very good carpenter. For example, this table. One of the legs is shorter than the other, and of course it has only two of them. I don't know what this is. It might be a spice rack (places spice on one part of thing and it rolls to the ground and breaks) but if so it is not a very good one.

I love Kids in the Hall.

[David Swidler]

I can't address the OP from a Christian standpoint, but I can offer a synopsis of the classical Jewish approach.

The Talmud in tractate Megillah connects the story of Esther with the verse in Deuteronomy (31:18): "And I shall surely hide my face on that day..." referring to the eventual consequences of Israel's foretold "straying." Esther's name contains the Hebrew root for "hide" (s-t-r).

In other words, the Talmud is saying that as of about the time of Esther, there is no more direct divine revelation (though there was some residual prophecy in that generation - Haggai, Zachariah and Malachi). The world exists from then on in a state of God "hiding his face." So while there might be the occasional wonder, the paradigm has changed. The story of Esther itself bears this out: not only does every event in the book appear non-miraculous, God himself isn't mentioned, even when we would expect otherwise (e.g. Esther 4:14). He operates behind the scenes.

Elsewhere, the Talmud says that at the beginning of the Second Temple Era (c. 500 BCE) the drive to worship idols disappeared (subsequent idol worship, accordingly, would stem from resistance to change and lack of apparent alternatives to worship, not from an inner drive comparable to human sexuality). So the same period, according to the Talmud, saw a sea change in human spirituality - on the one hand there was no more drive to worship idols, but at the same time there was no more direct contact with God.

[FireGarden]

Originally Posted by Stamenflicker

I still don't see the point, because if he did all kinds of miracles and such, it wouldn't answer the question as to whether or not is was worthy of such belief.

It's not just the miracles that have stopped, though. There has been no serious prophet since Jesus (according to you) or since 1830 (according to Mormons).

Of course, plenty of faith healers disagree with the supposed lack of miracles.

[Ossai]

FireGarden

Quote:

Protons are positive and repel each other. Yet the nucleus of the atom does not fly apart. Is that not miracle enough?



(c) Jack Chick

Indeed, all praise the FSM.

[kurious_kathy]

Originally Posted by David Swidler

I can't address the OP from a Christian standpoint, but I can offer a synopsis of the classical Jewish approach.

The Talmud in tractate Megillah connects the story of Esther with the verse in Deuteronomy (31:18): "And I shall surely hide my face on that day..." referring to the eventual consequences of Israel's foretold "straying." Esther's name contains the Hebrew root for "hide" (s-t-r).

In other words, the Talmud is saying that as of about the time of Esther, there is no more direct divine revelation (though there was some residual prophecy in that generation - Haggai, Zachariah and Malachi). The world exists from then on in a state of God "hiding his face." So while there might be the occasional wonder, the paradigm has changed. The story of Esther itself bears this out: not only does every event in the book appear non-miraculous, God himself isn't mentioned, even when we would expect otherwise (e.g. Esther 4:14). He operates behind the scenes.

Elsewhere, the Talmud says that at the beginning of the Second Temple Era (c. 500 BCE) the drive to worship idols disappeared (subsequent idol worship, accordingly, would stem from resistance to change and lack of apparent alternatives to worship, not from an inner drive comparable to human sexuality). So the same period, according to the Talmud, saw a sea change in human spirituality - on the one hand there was no more drive to worship idols, but at the same time there was no more direct contact with God.

Oh really, than how do you explain what Hebrews 11 has to say about faith?

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.This is what the ancients were commended for.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because heconsidered him faithful who had made the promise. And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.

By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.

By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter.He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.

By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

[KelvinG]

After reading Kurious Kathy's post, I had to repost this from earlier in this thread. Excellent insight Bruno:

Originally Posted by Bruno Putzeys

The only believers left will be those utterly devoid of logic or scientific insight. I mean, look at this forum. How many believers in this forum are capable of setting out a cogent argument? And those who are, aren't they the most moderate believers around?

[Meffy]

Originally Posted by Dark Jaguar

I've never got a good explanation for why god purposefully deprived Pharaoh of free will to actually literally force him to disobey God.

Couldn't it just be that God gave Pharaoh a mighty hankerin' for cholesterol-laden foods? That'd harden his arteries and very likely the heart.

[zakur]

Originally Posted by kurious_kathy

Oh really, than how do you explain what Hebrews 11 has to say about faith? [snip]

Nice cut-and-paste job, k_k. Anything original to contribute?