9/11 "Trooth" : There IS hope.

Belz... · 1st August 2006, 06:17 PM

About an hour ago, a friend of mine called me, and during the course of our conversation he said he had watched a video that showed that the official story of 9/11 was a lie.

Although I'm not sure that video was Loose Change, I smiled to myself, happy to use the opportunity to do my own solo debunking.

I used the knowledge I've earned reading the 9/11-themed threads on this forum to demolish every point he brought from the video (and made a few pre-emptive strikes, knowing in advance some of the other points he'd bring to bear.)

In less than an hour, he went from troother to skeptic, angry to have been deceived by such a load of nonsense.

Well, at least SOME people can tell a logical argument from a fallacious one, and draw conclusion based on facts and evidence.

There IS hope, after all.

WildCat · 1st August 2006, 06:41 PM

Sounds like you got to him before he finished the Kool-Aid. Good job!

defaultdotxbe · 1st August 2006, 06:42 PM

this is the main reason i debunk, because i see friends of mine being taken in by the snake oil salesmen of the "truth" movement and i dont like it

good job rescuing another from ignorance

geggy · 1st August 2006, 08:23 PM

Belz...do you know who Democratic Senator Bob Graham is?

In a PBS interview in 2002, he has claimed that a soverienty foreign government was responsible for financing the 9/11 operation. Yet the information has been suppressed and kept classified by the Bush administration. Currently the information is being held in the archives and will be so for the next 20-30 years. Any idea which foreign government Bob Graham was referring to? And why is the Bush administration so reluctant to release the information to the public?

Cylinder · 1st August 2006, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by geggy

Belz...do you know who Democratic Senator Bob Graham is?

In a PBS interview in 2002, he has claimed that a soverienty foreign government was responsible for financing the 9/11 operation.

Maybe you can provide a link so we can discuss the issue.

geggy · 1st August 2006, 08:30 PM

Google?

Cylinder · 1st August 2006, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by geggy

Google?

Google is a great tool for finding links to transcripts.

Regnad Kcin · 1st August 2006, 09:22 PM

Congrats, Belz.

The hopeless cases (geggy, anyone?) may just be a lost cause (each of whom seemingly revel in their ignorance). But those who aren't deserve attention.

gtc · 2nd August 2006, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by geggy

Belz...do you know who Democratic Senator Bob Graham is?

In a PBS interview in 2002, he has claimed that a soverienty foreign government was responsible for financing the 9/11 operation. Yet the information has been suppressed and kept classified by the Bush administration. Currently the information is being held in the archives and will be so for the next 20-30 years. Any idea which foreign government Bob Graham was referring to? And why is the Bush administration so reluctant to release the information to the public?

Weren't some Arab governments being sued at one stage by victims groups?

The claim being that governments in that region fund various Islamic charities and some of those funds might have been diverted (one way or another) to militant groups.

Cuddles · 2nd August 2006, 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by geggy

Belz...do you know who Democratic Senator Bob Graham is?

In a PBS interview in 2002, he has claimed that a soverienty foreign government was responsible for financing the 9/11 operation. Yet the information has been suppressed and kept classified by the Bush administration. Currently the information is being held in the archives and will be so for the next 20-30 years. Any idea which foreign government Bob Graham was referring to? And why is the Bush administration so reluctant to release the information to the public?

The obvious answer here is that they won't release the information because it doesn't exist. Without proof that this information is being supressed there is no reason to ask the question. I can ask all day why people won't talk about invisible squirrels, but without proof of an invisible squirrel no-one will see a reason to talk about them.

twinstead · 2nd August 2006, 04:23 AM

[decloak]
I also would like some evidence that "information has been suppressed and kept classified by the Bush administration".

Sounds to me like a desperate attack with low-grade ammunition to try to stem the tide of exposing the 911 truth movement for what it really is: an ideological and not fact-finding movement.
[cloak]

Belz... · 2nd August 2006, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by geggy

Belz...do you know who Democratic Senator Bob Graham is?

In a PBS interview in 2002, he has claimed that a soverienty foreign government was responsible for financing the 9/11 operation. Yet the information has been suppressed and kept classified by the Bush administration. Currently the information is being held in the archives and will be so for the next 20-30 years. Any idea which foreign government Bob Graham was referring to? And why is the Bush administration so reluctant to release the information to the public?

Geggy, do you know who Bill Renard is ? He's the one who funded the faked lunar landings. Word has it that he's a freemason and a JOOOOO!!!! He's also the former president of Moonco, inc. (don't you think that name's kinda ironic ?) and in the 60s owed money to the russian government. Obviously, something fishy's going on, here, so why is TEH gubmint so reluctant to release this information and follow with an impartial investigation ?

Yap, yap, yap, geggy. You can say whatever you want.

Belz... · 2nd August 2006, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by twinstead

[decloak]

FIRE!!!

Quote:

[cloak]

Dammit!

SusanB-M1 · 2nd August 2006, 05:44 AM

Betz
One of my friends is convinced that Diana's death was a conspiracy. Is there a debunking of that on this site?

Gravy · 2nd August 2006, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by SusanB-M1

Betz
One of my friends is convinced that Diana's death was a conspiracy. Is there a debunking of that on this site?

You can use the thread search function to check past threads and posts. Here's one Di conspiracy thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...ht=Princess+Di

twinstead · 2nd August 2006, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

FIRE!!!

Dammit!

LOL nice try

Dragon · 2nd August 2006, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by SusanB-M1

Betz
One of my friends is convinced that Diana's death was a conspiracy. Is there a debunking of that on this site?

Good luck with that one! I've found that belief in this CT is quite widespread and unshakeable - especially among women for some reason.
One point off the top of my head - how did the putative murderers ensure that Diana wasn't wearing a seat belt?

burrahobbit · 2nd August 2006, 06:43 AM

Totally agree. No argument can shake a convinced Lady Di CT believer.

What I generally find is that they do not even listen to arguments

Hellbound · 2nd August 2006, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by geggy

Belz...do you know who Democratic Senator Bob Graham is?

In a PBS interview in 2002, he has claimed that a soverienty foreign government was responsible for financing the 9/11 operation. Yet the information has been suppressed and kept classified by the Bush administration. Currently the information is being held in the archives and will be so for the next 20-30 years. Any idea which foreign government Bob Graham was referring to? And why is the Bush administration so reluctant to release the information to the public?

Gee.

My guess would be, oh, I dunno, AFGHANISTAN, maybe? Don't think that's really classified.

SusanB-M1 · 3rd August 2006, 01:41 AM

gravy - Thanks for the link.
dragon and burrahobbit - My friend tends to pause for a moment and then repeat her belief in the conspiracy...and she is a very sensible, practical, intelligent person and a lovely, ear friend.

Dragon · 3rd August 2006, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by SusanB-M1

gravy - Thanks for the link.
dragon and burrahobbit - My friend tends to pause for a moment and then repeat her belief in the conspiracy...and she is a very sensible, practical, intelligent person and a lovely, ear friend.

Yup, that sounds very much like the Diana-was-murdered believers I've met. The only thing to do is to have some pointed questions to ask of the "who, what, when, where, why and how" type. Don't push it, just leave her to think.
Just as you hint at - it's not worth spoiling a friendship over.

Indolent Wretch · 3rd August 2006, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by geggy

he has claimed that a soverienty foreign government was responsible for financing the 9/11 operation

I'm sure this has already been done but...

We know how many there were and what their tickets were likely to cost.
We know how expensive a box cutter is.
We know the price of a PC and a copy of MS Flight Simulator.
We know the price of some flying lessons.

Add in some sundries for pizza and coke for the planning, some satchels, some travelling expenses and some barber money for pre-paradise beard maintenance.

Does it really require the funding of a foreign government????

It's amazing to me how conspiricies all seem to start with people not having enough imagination, "I can't believe these guys did it on there own", "It's just not possible we could have got to the moon", "Some guys with a plank and string could never make these patterns in crops". But then, once the conspiracy has taken off there is absolutely no end to the imagination brought in to play by the same people "Clearly the op was funded by the NSA and the steel supports of the building has a central core of C4", "Clearly it was all filmed on a set somewhere in Nevada, everyone is in on it and it's been kept perfectly secret for 37 years." and "Space aliens are manipulating Mother Earth to make patterns in the crops to grant us advance warning of an impending disaster".

Can't these fools show a little consistency!

gumboot · 3rd August 2006, 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by Indolent Wretch

Can't these fools show a little consistency!

So the counter to "Conspiracy Theory" is "Consistency Theory"...

iiiiiinteresting... verrrry iiiiiiinteresting...

-Andrew

Pardalis · 3rd August 2006, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

In less than an hour, he went from troother to skeptic, angry to have been deceived by such a load of nonsense.

(edited for space)

Bravo Belz, un autre cerveau Québécois de sauvé!

1st August 2006, 06:17 PM	#1
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a multiverse of my own creation Posts: 15,537	9/11 "Trooth" : There IS hope. About an hour ago, a friend of mine called me, and during the course of our conversation he said he had watched a video that showed that the official story of 9/11 was a lie. Although I'm not sure that video was Loose Change, I smiled to myself, happy to use the opportunity to do my own solo debunking. I used the knowledge I've earned reading the 9/11-themed threads on this forum to demolish every point he brought from the video (and made a few pre-emptive strikes, knowing in advance some of the other points he'd bring to bear.) In less than an hour, he went from troother to skeptic, angry to have been deceived by such a load of nonsense. Well, at least SOME people can tell a logical argument from a fallacious one, and draw conclusion based on facts and evidence. There IS hope, after all.
	__________________ - "To kill and be king, is that all?" - "Perhaps not even that." -- Uther and Merlin, Excalibur Current avatar from Jaestudio.com

1st August 2006, 06:41 PM	#2
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 23,599	Sounds like you got to him before he finished the Kool-Aid. Good job!
	__________________ "My opinion is not uninformed there are just many things I have no clue about." -atavisms "Iran DOES have the right and good reason to attack Israel." -parky76

1st August 2006, 08:23 PM	#4
geggy Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 508	Belz...do you know who Democratic Senator Bob Graham is? In a PBS interview in 2002, he has claimed that a soverienty foreign government was responsible for financing the 9/11 operation. Yet the information has been suppressed and kept classified by the Bush administration. Currently the information is being held in the archives and will be so for the next 20-30 years. Any idea which foreign government Bob Graham was referring to? And why is the Bush administration so reluctant to release the information to the public?
geggy Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 508

1st August 2006, 08:27 PM	#5
Cylinder Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 1,984	Originally Posted by geggy Belz...do you know who Democratic Senator Bob Graham is? In a PBS interview in 2002, he has claimed that a soverienty foreign government was responsible for financing the 9/11 operation. Maybe you can provide a link so we can discuss the issue.
	__________________ If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

1st August 2006, 08:30 PM	#6
geggy Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 508	Google?
geggy Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 508

1st August 2006, 06:42 PM	#3
defaultdotxbe Drunken Shikigami Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Dark Side of the Sun Posts: 6,466	this is the main reason i debunk, because i see friends of mine being taken in by the snake oil salesmen of the "truth" movement and i dont like it good job rescuing another from ignorance

1st August 2006, 08:36 PM	#7
Cylinder Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 1,984	Originally Posted by geggy Google? Google is a great tool for finding links to transcripts.
	__________________ If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

1st August 2006, 09:22 PM	#8
Regnad Kcin Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The ol' Same place Posts: 4,729	Congrats, Belz. The hopeless cases (geggy, anyone?) may just be a lost cause (each of whom seemingly revel in their ignorance). But those who aren't deserve attention.
	__________________ My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.

2nd August 2006, 12:53 AM	#9
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 6,792	Originally Posted by geggy Belz...do you know who Democratic Senator Bob Graham is? In a PBS interview in 2002, he has claimed that a soverienty foreign government was responsible for financing the 9/11 operation. Yet the information has been suppressed and kept classified by the Bush administration. Currently the information is being held in the archives and will be so for the next 20-30 years. Any idea which foreign government Bob Graham was referring to? And why is the Bush administration so reluctant to release the information to the public? Weren't some Arab governments being sued at one stage by victims groups? The claim being that governments in that region fund various Islamic charities and some of those funds might have been diverted (one way or another) to militant groups.

2nd August 2006, 03:49 AM	#10
Cuddles Decoy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies Posts: 9,624	Originally Posted by geggy Belz...do you know who Democratic Senator Bob Graham is? In a PBS interview in 2002, he has claimed that a soverienty foreign government was responsible for financing the 9/11 operation. Yet the information has been suppressed and kept classified by the Bush administration. Currently the information is being held in the archives and will be so for the next 20-30 years. Any idea which foreign government Bob Graham was referring to? And why is the Bush administration so reluctant to release the information to the public? The obvious answer here is that they won't release the information because it doesn't exist. Without proof that this information is being supressed there is no reason to ask the question. I can ask all day why people won't talk about invisible squirrels, but without proof of an invisible squirrel no-one will see a reason to talk about them.

2nd August 2006, 04:23 AM	#11
twinstead Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Big corner office in NWO Towers Posts: 5,951	[decloak] I also would like some evidence that "information has been suppressed and kept classified by the Bush administration". Sounds to me like a desperate attack with low-grade ammunition to try to stem the tide of exposing the 911 truth movement for what it really is: an ideological and not fact-finding movement. [cloak]

2nd August 2006, 05:42 AM	#12
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a multiverse of my own creation Posts: 15,537	Originally Posted by geggy Belz...do you know who Democratic Senator Bob Graham is? In a PBS interview in 2002, he has claimed that a soverienty foreign government was responsible for financing the 9/11 operation. Yet the information has been suppressed and kept classified by the Bush administration. Currently the information is being held in the archives and will be so for the next 20-30 years. Any idea which foreign government Bob Graham was referring to? And why is the Bush administration so reluctant to release the information to the public? Geggy, do you know who Bill Renard is ? He's the one who funded the faked lunar landings. Word has it that he's a freemason and a JOOOOO!!!! He's also the former president of Moonco, inc. (don't you think that name's kinda ironic ?) and in the 60s owed money to the russian government. Obviously, something fishy's going on, here, so why is TEH gubmint so reluctant to release this information and follow with an impartial investigation ? Yap, yap, yap, geggy. You can say whatever you want.
	__________________ - "To kill and be king, is that all?" - "Perhaps not even that." -- Uther and Merlin, Excalibur Current avatar from Jaestudio.com

2nd August 2006, 05:43 AM	#13
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a multiverse of my own creation Posts: 15,537	Originally Posted by twinstead [decloak] FIRE!!! Quote: [cloak] Dammit!
	__________________ - "To kill and be king, is that all?" - "Perhaps not even that." -- Uther and Merlin, Excalibur Current avatar from Jaestudio.com

2nd August 2006, 05:44 AM	#14
SusanB-M1 Incurable Optimist Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Almost in the New Forest, Hampshire, UK Posts: 1,390	Betz One of my friends is convinced that Diana's death was a conspiracy. Is there a debunking of that on this site?

2nd August 2006, 05:49 AM	#15
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,062	Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 Betz One of my friends is convinced that Diana's death was a conspiracy. Is there a debunking of that on this site? You can use the thread search function to check past threads and posts. Here's one Di conspiracy thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...ht=Princess+Di
	__________________ "Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

2nd August 2006, 05:53 AM	#16
twinstead Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Big corner office in NWO Towers Posts: 5,951	Originally Posted by Belz... FIRE!!! Dammit! LOL nice try

2nd August 2006, 05:55 AM	#17
Dragon Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,341	Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 Betz One of my friends is convinced that Diana's death was a conspiracy. Is there a debunking of that on this site? Good luck with that one! I've found that belief in this CT is quite widespread and unshakeable - especially among women for some reason. One point off the top of my head - how did the putative murderers ensure that Diana wasn't wearing a seat belt?
	__________________ "We must favour verifiable evidence over private feeling. Otherwise we leave ourselves vulnerable to those who would obscure the truth." Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason

2nd August 2006, 06:43 AM	#18
burrahobbit Thinker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: India Posts: 179	Totally agree. No argument can shake a convinced Lady Di CT believer. What I generally find is that they do not even listen to arguments
	__________________ If there is a God, it's going to be a whole lot bigger and a whole lot more incomprehensible than anything that any theologian of any religion has ever proposed.- Richard Dawkins

2nd August 2006, 07:16 AM	#19
Hellbound ex-Huntsman Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: A Luxury Handbasket Posts: 5,622	Originally Posted by geggy Belz...do you know who Democratic Senator Bob Graham is? In a PBS interview in 2002, he has claimed that a soverienty foreign government was responsible for financing the 9/11 operation. Yet the information has been suppressed and kept classified by the Bush administration. Currently the information is being held in the archives and will be so for the next 20-30 years. Any idea which foreign government Bob Graham was referring to? And why is the Bush administration so reluctant to release the information to the public? Gee. My guess would be, oh, I dunno, AFGHANISTAN, maybe? Don't think that's really classified.
	__________________ "The overarching lesson that has emerged from scientific inquiry over the last century is that human experience is often a misleading guide to the true nature of reality."--Brain Greene, The Fabric of the Cosmos

3rd August 2006, 01:41 AM	#20
SusanB-M1 Incurable Optimist Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Almost in the New Forest, Hampshire, UK Posts: 1,390	gravy - Thanks for the link. dragon and burrahobbit - My friend tends to pause for a moment and then repeat her belief in the conspiracy...and she is a very sensible, practical, intelligent person and a lovely, ear friend.

3rd August 2006, 02:16 AM	#21
Dragon Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,341	Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 gravy - Thanks for the link. dragon and burrahobbit - My friend tends to pause for a moment and then repeat her belief in the conspiracy...and she is a very sensible, practical, intelligent person and a lovely, ear friend. Yup, that sounds very much like the Diana-was-murdered believers I've met. The only thing to do is to have some pointed questions to ask of the "who, what, when, where, why and how" type. Don't push it, just leave her to think. Just as you hint at - it's not worth spoiling a friendship over.
	__________________ "We must favour verifiable evidence over private feeling. Otherwise we leave ourselves vulnerable to those who would obscure the truth." Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason

3rd August 2006, 02:29 AM	#22
Indolent Wretch Scholar Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 100	How much could it have cost? Originally Posted by geggy he has claimed that a soverienty foreign government was responsible for financing the 9/11 operation I'm sure this has already been done but... We know how many there were and what their tickets were likely to cost. We know how expensive a box cutter is. We know the price of a PC and a copy of MS Flight Simulator. We know the price of some flying lessons. Add in some sundries for pizza and coke for the planning, some satchels, some travelling expenses and some barber money for pre-paradise beard maintenance. Does it really require the funding of a foreign government???? It's amazing to me how conspiricies all seem to start with people not having enough imagination, "I can't believe these guys did it on there own", "It's just not possible we could have got to the moon", "Some guys with a plank and string could never make these patterns in crops". But then, once the conspiracy has taken off there is absolutely no end to the imagination brought in to play by the same people "Clearly the op was funded by the NSA and the steel supports of the building has a central core of C4", "Clearly it was all filmed on a set somewhere in Nevada, everyone is in on it and it's been kept perfectly secret for 37 years." and "Space aliens are manipulating Mother Earth to make patterns in the crops to grant us advance warning of an impending disaster". Can't these fools show a little consistency!
Indolent Wretch Scholar Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 100

3rd August 2006, 04:25 AM	#23
gumboot Norad Ninja Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,396	Originally Posted by Indolent Wretch Can't these fools show a little consistency! So the counter to "Conspiracy Theory" is "Consistency Theory"... iiiiiinteresting... verrrry iiiiiiinteresting... -Andrew
gumboot Norad Ninja Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,396	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. "My see-saw analogy renders any need for "calculations" moot." - Lyte Trip

3rd August 2006, 04:54 PM	#24
Pardalis Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 18,553	Originally Posted by Belz... In less than an hour, he went from troother to skeptic, angry to have been deceived by such a load of nonsense. (edited for space) Bravo Belz, un autre cerveau Québécois de sauvé!
	__________________ "It's much better to change your point of view in response to reality than to insist reality has got it wrong because it doesn't share your point of view." aggle-rithm "In reality, the most astonishingly incredible coincidence imaginable would be the complete absence of all coincidences." John Allen Paulos